Betsy Hodges and Maureen Sigauke

00:02 My name is Betsy Hodges. I am 51 years old. I am currently sitting in Washington DC and I am talking with Maureen a fellow fellow at Atlantic and we have known each other about three months maybe a little less but we met through the Atlantic Fellowship. My name is Maureen and I feel like I've known you busy for years. Now, you know, it's like the capital city and I am 30.

00:42 Sex and I am excited that I'm talking to you on Friday the 13th a day that is predominantly something that is going to beach was looking for.

00:59 Hello everybody.

01:02 Marie and I am so curious about you and I also feel like we have known each other.

01:08 But because of that that just drives my curiosity even more and

01:16 My first question for you is how did you first know or become aware that your work in the world to enhance the world to transform the world. How did you know that was your work when I was when I'm always ask that question. I was thinking to reflect if there was a particular day or year was an incident that sparked of all of that but I think I've always been the person who's been not so privileged, you know and the lack of privilege came and sensitivity on equal in sometime. So you can please get more in at 6 for the teacher beating up. I don't know if you eat too hard or I remember when I was in form one speaking up for the ghost holster for deposit in terms of the method of using places within parameters.

02:16 I think I've always been very sensitive as a person to the fact that we are merciful and yet we are born human and we deserve some sentences, you know that you know, and it's just happened. So there's not so many there so many incidents has but one thing that was the inequalities with his education system as a student and you saw some of these

02:51 What led you to say? I assume is a student you were involved in some of that change work and then what led you to say and this is what I'm doing forever or did it just happen. That way you just didn't ever occur to you to not do it anymore inspected from the inside from one incident was in college was that the school fees hikes and I lost children who are really coming from vulnerable for a rural community cannot afford that woke up and students exit is not forget for these for this group of people that don't know maybe not be able to talk and stand for themselves and having something why they told me that I should do this for you whether it's

03:45 I don't even mind if it's not paid, but I'm going to dedicate my life to a speaking up for the voiceless standing up for the for the people that normally do not have eight of the confidence of the spaces for them to stand up and speak for themselves. I think that was one thing that's packed mine. I'm going to do this forever kind of moments, you know what I mean?

04:04 Yeah, and have you had big successes along the way that has given you?

04:10 Energy or winter something that you just keep remembering that it's possible to do what you choose, you know to make the change that you choose.

04:21 Yeah, so, you know what this work that we do comes with a lot of people thinking that chain comes with my numbers changed about the saying that I have 100000 people put a frozen to celebrate small victories and they come and this Victory sometimes overlooked but a series at the foundation of change. So tell you that you need to build on the recently after running a school for himself. And when the child comes up to you and says meme you're changing my worldview to the world and you're changing the way I am. I'm not fired up to Violetta and be like you for me that's a weird, you know, and I've had conscious of those instances where people come to you after you've interrupted change my life by merely standing up for me.

05:20 Small window sticker. Yeah.

05:25 Well, you know since we're talking on November 13th, 2020, we are in day 6 of Biden land they declared by the Victor and I remember you and I were what sapping about it and another friend and I were texting about it and he was just he was very he's very cynical. He's like, yeah, it's great. But you know, he won't have the spinach and this and that the other thing and I literally told him to get his head out of his a asterisk asterisk that on the last we don't do a great job of celebrating our victories because we know there's a lot of work to be done and we leave directly to there's more work to be done and it's important to lay back and say it's something we didn't do everything.

06:20 We did something and that's it. That's how I felt exam mean. I always I said for years we have to celebrate the victory in hand because if we don't celebrate the victory in hand, we will never celebrate. So I yeah, I just I love that you celebrate the day I think so and you know what and when I look at you I also see and eyes I see a person who has who has been celebrated as well cuz I think you are an amazing person and having met you on the platform that we share them with speaking to the racism a couple of months ago. I think you've done amazing work and I was wondering also curious about you to say what's been you on his wall. What gives you what what made lead you to the place where you're at right now.

07:09 And what does Dixie look like for you?

07:21 Can't point to a moment or a space but I do have a series of moments. I can point to that. We're completely transforming it in my life in an unusual way. I was raised.

07:31 In the very white wealthy suburb of Minneapolis, which is a city in the northern part of the center of the United States and I had no clue what was going on around me socially, I just didn't understand the Dynamics that were at play. It was very inscrutable to me and I later learned in my life that's on purpose that's true for a lot of white people and that's true for a lot of middle-class and upper-class people is you know, the Dynamics are made less apparent to us. They're all put in soft focus so we can just enjoy our privilege in their dominance without questioning the systems that provide it and I

08:14 I went to college and I took a sociology course with Judy Porter at Bryn Mawr College in 1987. It was the spring of 1988 and Judy is the sociology of poverty and she explained race to me in a way that I finally understood that it was not it was a system. It wasn't just a feeling and not the Civil Rights Movement had ended racism and these things that were new Concepts for me as a white kid in the United States and then in 1990 to the officers who beat Rodney King in Los Angeles were acquitted and that was really the first time people had seen anything like that on video and

09:02 I was working at a home for people with major mental illness and I had the overnight shift so I came in and I counted all the pills which is what you do and everybody was asleep. And so I turned on the TV and a late night talk show host was talking of the uprisings Dennis Miller had a talk show at the time and he arrived between the time the verdict came down and the times at the time the verdict came down and the time of the uprisings began. Most people didn't film anything that night and he was just ashen-faced. He was just shocked and I was I was I thought to myself so what happened and I watch CNN all night long crying and I had these realizations that night that white people had done this that white, you know, the officers were mostly white. The jury was mostly white that it was white people who had made this decision that those were my people that this was about

10:02 Me that race and racism wasn't a bad thing, you know passive voice happening to people of color but that it was an active voice thing that white people do it is only by not fighting the systems that create these results and I realized that I had a voice that white people might be able to hear and that I was going to use it and I made the decision that game that enrolling white people in the work, but I would Now call Auntie Rachel know I like I always loved that every time does talk to you always been a powerful Storyteller and I'm a strong believer that we can change Minds that's when you create emotional proximity with the people that we talked to by telling stories that they can relate to so you always blow me away when you tell the stories and I love the fact that you said you've been fighting the system.

11:02 Somatic basis if you fought the system and you can say, you know.

11:22 Well

11:29 There are elections that I've been part of ballot measures. I've been part of where you can really say. Hey, we got something done there and then I had the privilege and opportunity and honor to be an elected official for 12 years. I was on the Minneapolis city council for eight years, and I was the mayor for 4.

11:50 And I can point to a lot of successes things. I feel really good about.

11:55 Summer summer fairy Benadryl and Prozac, you know, I worked for 6 years as a council member to reform are closed Pension funds. I will not bore you with the details. I was not for those six years. I was not much fun at cocktail parties, but in the end we saved tens of millions of dollars for Minneapolis taxpayers, which means we retained millions of dollars worth of capacity in the budget. You better work, you do work of the higher-order the the pensioners all got everything they were promised and the taxpayers got a better deal out of it, but that's not it is personal story some of the work. I'm really proud of his mayor, you know, by the time I left City Hall I had to do a long with the community that had boosted me and advocated for it and a long with some members of

12:55 City council who are willing to work with me most of them. We're not and all kinds of people but I helped lead the way for some of the most Progressive policy reforms in any Police Department in the country and I was just in a presentation this morning before you and I talked literally like 10 minutes before you and I started talking. I was on a presentation with somebody who pointed out who had data that show that those reforms were successful in June and even had some data about Minneapolis and that felt really good.

13:29 Because it is hard to change policing in this country and I did some of the things that we now know actually worked to make that difference and not that's huge especially in this country and especially knowing what happened to the Minneapolis Police Department after I left. I'm glad to know that I at least did my part to have it be as good as it could be when I left so

13:54 Yeah, those things like those things. I look back on and I said, okay, we really did something there and we raise the minimum wage 70,000 workers in Minneapolis when I was mayor got got a raise and every worker in Minneapolis. If they didn't have all four got paid sick leave, so I got to a crew paste and that had not happened before so those things are just really measurable really satisfy, you know about talking about cuz and wages is and leave and all of that. You just made me recall to to tell you that I think they have my most profound Foundation of activism was within the labor because Danny was graduated as a chemist, you know, and you're told that you supposed to give a b c d and you're self-employed.

14:54 Transitioning from maybe one class to another and you discover that has so many and one of the things that I actually recall which I can safely and probably say that wasn't made the smoke and what major win was how I remember fighting for young people's voices to be happy, you know, so that way no spaces the young people there are no spaces where you can say, OK at me and Michael, his head with in hetero structures made. So does that create a young will cuz I cancel and I was one of the Fist future speaking the general have the decision-making body and for me that his seems 5th Way, Fort Lauderdale.

15:54 People do I make so much pride to watch younger people coming in and using that space is a space for them to push for equality and and everything that contains and protects the rights of young people in particular within the walls of herself in the foundation of my to V.

16:32 It is I mean it is so clear to me that where we to talk for 10 hours. You could keep telling stories of Victories and even think he even thinks you worked on them might not have turned out the way you wanted, but you learned enough from them and you built enough leadership of your own and others.

16:48 People that it matters, I am guessing because I do and it is it is when you kick up your key back and say I did that that you get energy to continue this American still fighting with the systemic racism that we have is that we've been talking about the work is by 5, but when you celebrate continue and that's why I do it and I'm glad that you and I have that in, and I guess I hope he's going to continue energizing you and myself to continue doing what we do. If any man will be physically paid her, but you know what I do and I was wondering what role his history and culture played in your country in your contacts in Minneapolis. For example, in shaping racism as you've experienced it as a resume.

18:03 You know cities in the North in the United States the white people in them often feel a little bit smug because we don't the history of racism in Northern cities is just different than the history of racism in southern city. And so we often feel smug like, well, we never had Jim Crow laws and we never had whites only drinking fountains and blacks only drinking fountains etcetera.

18:34 But cities of the north were shaped very differently, but it no less racist me if that's a word just a history of redlining in cities is huge redlining in the United States. I don't know if you guys have anything that would be the equivalent of it even is just laws as the cities were building and developing especially in the post-world War II era and especially after the Great Migration when a lot of African-American folks moved from the south to the North and then World War II happen through all these laws and Covenants on the books lost in City Hall's past at City Hall government-sponsored laws saying, you know black people can live here but not here and white people can live here and Jews can live here but not here and if you go to any city today, and I do this as part of my work now if you

19:34 If you go to any city today and you overlay on those redlining map map of the highest concentrations of poverty of low graduation rates of high unemployment, if you overlay those maps are almost exactly the same like those decisions those policy decisions made decades ago still have impact on people's lives today, which is basically what we're talking about when we say that it's a system and so as mayor I inherited that was

20:10 You know bills to get better results for white people. And was still built to get better results for white people. Even if the people holding his positions didn't have a lot of active racial animus in their hearts. That's what the system was for and a lot of people invested in that system, even if they said they wanted racial equity and so I had to work to change the system and what it was for and the outcomes it was getting for people of color in his city that was in a lot of denial about how unwilling they were to do that.

20:50 That's a lot about how white racism how whiteness works is we just want our comfort and convenience more than we want the change. We say we want that's how it works on the left. So that's what I had to deal with when I was married people, you know, espousing the value of wanting things to be different but not actually wanting to do anything to make it so into you have that equivalent in the work that you're doing cuz that would definitely explain it in Zimbabwe and I think like you're right about the history and how to place and load into feeding the systematic a racist Behavior. So you find when you're talking about the red the red line, and we also had a couple of floors.

21:50 Colonial times, you know, and I can't because we had to do this today. So we still we still they still do those lines where you can see people in this part of town State. I usually White and the people that needed for the state may be in highfields a black history played in feeding into the dim their mentality and fitting into racism has changed since I talked about together. We're we're white people within.

22:34 Tomorrow in a very questionable Mina, which I wish we could talk about it another day and blacks had to come in because of that. She pooped in the late nineties. We now have a very minority group of white people. But even if in the minority numbers that is a damn their metallic red line, and we know that they hang out that that that side and we have to keep this way and it might not be supported by any law is glaringly visible as it is in Minneapolis. It is very much present, you know that divided and sometimes the structural do you know where they make it deliver food in the area becomes more expensive that any any person can can access so you will definitely not even try to be there. So but it's not as daring as it was maybe coming.

23:34 From Mom Independence the 1980s but it's still typing discrimination and might smile ization. What is an elite group of people who now or never of like the awesome report eluded the minority the majority to walk the majority-minority piece of the cake. So that is not what is privilege. So it's kind of different now, but I can relate and the structural racism.

24:18 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, so you find that they limit of privatization that is going on in terms of our education 111 Bill proud moment of crisis with that you are left with no option but you to send your children to a public school Wednesday at your results. And you for the teacher to child ratio is about 1 to 35, you know what I mean? So those that have that own the means of production won't go to sleep with their children through private school.

25:18 Respect that and education sector also feels so you find it. Even when you talk about help those that can afford can fly their children out of out of them to other countries to access the top notch app Healthcare facilities, and the people that come out as privileged then have to contend with a result that has a strong bearing in terms of public education as well as employment.

26:03 And do you think that those systems, you know setting up systems where there's the the setup is somebody's going to do well in somebody's not somebody's going to have more somebody's going to have left heading for remind me later to the belgians way. He said he'd go easy and you notice them to bed. Another man's life is wrong, but to call them and tell them that's the way they're doing it too strong create a divide between them. So that is fight, you know, and when they fight the propels the Quincy propels the agenda of in that case the belgians, but I think it was exactly

26:57 How do you find that history?

27:01 That he should be all so then propels that into place is the legacy of colonialism. But over the time we have been telling you that the faces of changed we now have black on black doing the same thing. I was kind of feel that we also know doing something that we can do ourselves to change that but I also feel that I'm absolute power corrupts absolutely enjoying the fruits of power to appoint that they would rather maintain the system of exclusion that's in apple self game. So what's going on in in your country I wanted to ask you. So how did you do? You think it's even possible to bridge The Divide?

28:01 I want a new in one of his minutes election promises says he's going to try to breach that divided. Is it possible to breathe and how?

28:17 Yeah.

28:22 I have to believe it is possible. I not a hundred percent sure how my work I decided. I mean my work is with white people in general and what are the tenets of my work is that there's not good white people are bad why people whiteness is bad whiteness doesn't have much to recommend it. But the people underneath the whiteness of people who've been seats and whiteness. So you don't us human beings of European descent. We are as human as anyone else but whiteness is inhuman and that it shows up in certain ways on the left in certain ways on the right and the idea that there are good ways of being white and bad ways of being white is designed to keep whiteness locked in place and for dumb and so I leave in the human beings who are laboring under some deepness apprehensions about their own humanity and Humanities of others, but when I start my work with white people,

29:22 I start with

29:25 White people who are either Center or left of center who believe that race exist who believe that racism exists and you think that that racism is bad. That's where I start because

29:43 We I belong in that group and we as a group are still perpetuating whiteness the systems that we have under our domain cities. Mostly still get terrible outcomes life outcomes for people of the global majority relative to white people in the cities. And so there's some work to be done there and I think if we can get enough white people and to do it not shaming us for having been taught how to be white not Sheamus for having been socialized into our whiteness, but to say it's not doing us any good. There's something in it for us to change our relationship to whiteness and and to work to change the policies that come from it and that the future that a non-racist be an anti-racist feature is one that includes us and we're better off in it. And so that's where I'm starting.

30:43 Because I have to believe the Divide is bridgeable. I at least have to believe that it doesn't have to be ascendant that the views of those white people don't have to be a descendant part of the reason they're so ascendant in the United States right now is because archaic governmental laws in the way. We apportioned power has disproportionately given them.

31:07 Given them the ability to voice those that power in the halls of government across the country to tell you the election results in America gives me hope and I think it is definitely hard but everything is quite possible. Those people who know me know me as an optimist. I always say maybe you need to work twice as hard. Maybe you need to jump twice as hot, but you still can't get through, you know, so I do feel that it is very possible. But I think at the very core of it which is something that I have become big is the person, you know, the foundation the community the family, you know, because it's over the years. I have learned as a pleasant activities that we place so much importance on the institutions and solutions. The system of exclusion. So perhaps if we go back to the community and create a new kind of person who believes in equality

32:07 Belief in humanity then when did you get to occupy offices in settings and change the whole system? So I believe that my hope is in the light in young people in particular to change the world and it is doable hard but durable, what is your dream? You know, what is your dream for America? What is your dream for the world?

32:44 I think my dream for America and the world is where

32:49 Is the full flourishing of human genius creativity love and intelligence unhindered by unnecessary things and I have that is the biggest Vision because it seems because the other put a piece of that is that whatever.

33:11 Race a person is is not predictive of Life outcomes. That is one of my big that's what I'm working toward. But the reason that matters is because I want human beings to flourish and Thrive at 1. Everybody is genius on the table. I want everybody to be able to express their Jamieson who they are. That's the that's the dream that I have and

33:35 In various depressions in the world Ginger that for everyone actually going to go to sleep in a cup or any of them always dream of Wild Wings in an unfamiliar does not mean an enemy. You know, I'm said media does not mean that you are antagonistic or or I don't know. So I dream of a world way and Familia is viewed as an ankle for more brainstorming ideas with unfamiliar means she's approached with your City to say, how can we learn from you and what can we take from you and build on it, you know how to create a bed and walk. So for me, it's when I see a Cuban, you know and be known to me at you been powder. I see a Cuban person who can add value to me at my knowledge of what Being Human.

34:35 You know easier to say you're most likely from the left of your most likely from the right order Center, you know, so I am am dreaming of a different means we can lend more we can we can create more and beautiful stuff, you know, so that's it. But I am looking at a world where they invest in the future by young people in particular and invest in communities, you know, because if there's anything that Corona has taught me is that it is been communities that have come to the door and stood up for each other and helped build resilience twice. This pandemic has been communities that is to defend, you know, it supported and workers cheering them on so I think we need to invest in the and build resilience from Dairy Queen app.

35:37 Yeah, what what is supposed to be your legacy?

35:54 Cuz I want to tell that if I'm going to be blessed enough to be alive to tell it.

36:09 Yes, I do. How do I want to be remembered? Well, I don't I don't mean this in an ego way. But if I do my work right I will be remembered for having helped build the fulcrum that transformed whiteness in this country and therefore the world believe I could be remembered for anything it would be for that is if I told my daughter that when I do die on my Tombstone, they should strike. He tried I want to be remembered it was a situation that little people's thought impossible. She tried to write it a person who tried to speak for those people that cannot speak for themselves a person who try to inspire someone publicly or even in small spaces in the toilet in it as we're putting on lipstick in a bus as you're writing to one place from one place to another song

37:09 The person who tried to make somebody feel and be better, you know, that's that's what I want to be remembered for bed of cuz I want you to remember me a person. That was your friend as well.

37:29 Yeah.

37:34 I'm excited for I'm thankful for the Atlanta Community for bringing us together.

37:51 I am too I am too I will say this as I'm reading the book station eleven and there's a quote from Star Trek in it was a lot which is survival is not sufficient. Do you have 24 hours? Is it okay to take the cold that I didn't notice that a little children are not going to school and yes, I'm lucky enough to to to mingle and engage with people that are privileged and you could see that the children have access to which my neighbor did not and because from that came out collecting homeschool idea, you know, we're through a lot of conversations with God, he needs to realize that you might not have a lot but we can make a difference, you know, so you Betsy can offer you.

38:51 Launch, you know and maybe take in 5 grade once you know, and we've had teachers volunteering in children through their work laptop, but there's no way to get education and we've been running for seven months now, you know, and it's been phenomenal, you know, and the children excited their Viewpoint your worldview is case because nobody can't you know it, you know that that man doesn't care and there you are in the group of young people caring for them so that keep me hope and the Beast Amanda go with someone saying I was very skeptical when you started doing this cuz I thought you were from a couch and you wanted to use our children for was okay, but then

39:51 I saw you passionate to dedicate yourself to Best Buy then invite my child's education composition English composition in that case was different and I am so convincing thank for this coming from a parent gives me smile. So I'm looking forward to dream of community work even with that. I'm willing to create structures that support the community to build resilience because I think that the school give me hope you know, they keep Little Smiles day on day and the parents, of course when to tell me that it. Yeah, I'm no longer without like cuz of course that makes me smile every day.

40:51 We'll see now what gives you hope has given me hope as well it is it is it is more contagious than anything else. I think is Hope and joy and community and friendship and you are clearly very badass Marine I think is the only word for you. Are you inspired me? I was just reading what you have achieved during the twelve years is that you saved in Minneapolis that insulted very inspiring.

41:38 Oh, yes, I experienced it more as relief. I experienced it Morris relief. I cried when it was officially finally announced. I cried like sobbing heaving ugly crying for over an hour and I live in DC. So my husband and I put on masks and stayed away from when we went down to Black lives matter Plaza, and we walked around and just were part of that moment and even now talking about it. I just showed up because

42:16 You know, we were it's the floor electing Biden was the floor of a house. We've been trying to build for a long time, you know Trump put us in the basement. He put us in the basement. We still have the rest of the house to whatever the analogy is to build right we still believe we've just put the floor back on the foundation. But at least we're there at least we have the hope of democracy to me this election was I was Voting between fascism in the hope of democracy authoritarianism and the hope of democracy and our democracy is in perfect and we have not reached its potential. I am under no Illusions about that was fascism.

43:03 Create a trunk case our opportunities even more. So yes, I'm I'm optimistic that we have an opportunity and I'm doing my best to take advantage of it. But mostly I was just relieved that and she the way the election results rolled into was confusing, but he biting won by a lot. He didn't win by a little bit he won by a lot and our electoral college and the Order of Operations because of covet and counting all the mail in and walk in Valles.

43:38 Meant that it didn't seem that way and I I don't want us to lose sight of it like Trump lost by a lot in this country and the most people in this country didn't support him and the people who and the leavening agent for me is that most people who did support Trump wear white and so that is true and that is something we get to Grapple with us a country and I get to Grapple with as a person who is dedicated to

44:12 Transformer you give me hope I cuz I think if we're going to have an equitable world of people who are two people itch, you know and delivery walk with thee know what it was sick of that they have to undo or not undo button allies that play sealed and every time I talk to you, I'm Blown Away by your sensitivity, you know your sensitivity to where you coming from the history of in the system steps of discrimination and racism and I think you give me hope it's people like you, you know who just turned me on to clear a thing we can do it one bit at a time, you know, and if we can replicate fast as you sure we're going to have a different it is from now America and Zimbabwe.

45:12 You are amazing you are.

45:28 Thank you, Marine. You're amazing and you're working your warmth in your friendship. Give me

45:48 I most definitely and like I said to just reach out and say hey little one.

46:04 This is what you can do cuz yes, and I admired.

46:15 God knows I need that one. Last thing that I would want to tell you is that he's home for you as well. Boundaries and my home becomes your home. So I'm looking for you to come home.

46:35 What is the price of the coffee this time? So just come home.

46:51 I will I will and you have a home here.

47:09 U2

47:12 Yes.

47:14 Me to you me to you.