Caroline Batorowicz and Melissa West

00:03 My name is Caroline Catalina batorowicz is 46 today's date October 2nd 2020.

00:19 I am in Denver, Colorado.

00:23 My interview partner is Melissa and my relationship to my partner. We just met at one small step.

00:38 And my name is Melissa West. I'm 39 days till October 2nd 2020. I also live in Denver Colorado Caroline is my interview partner. And as she said we met through one small step.

00:58 Before you go on Caroline, I believe your audio kind of went out a little bit for me when you're saying your name could so could you just say your full name was again given name was cuddling about, Turtle Beach.

01:15 You're right. Thank you. Go ahead and why you came to one small set?

01:22 So when I heard that the brave Coalition was partnering with one small step. I was definitely interested in participating. I feel like my my thoughts on the whole name change of our neighborhood have a little bit over time and become more informed by hearing other people's perspective opportunity to to have a chance to talk with someone.

02:00 With others

02:02 And so when I saw the opportunity to speak out about specifically the Stapleton name change, I wanted to share my opinion on that just because there's so much confusion between people why we believe certain things and I wanted to let people know why I believe the things I do and not have people assume things.

02:44 Great. Thank you. So now yeah, could I have Melissa? Can you read Caroline's bio? Let me scroll up.

03:05 Okay Caroline. My partners Bayou is I'm a white immigrant in love with my Catholic faith. I've lived in large cities most of my life and so my experiences are associated with Urban radio says I'm a recovering attorney who works in affordable housing with two young children. My husband and I are both dedicated public servants. He works primarily with veterans. I grew up in a rural West Virginia to conservative parents. I'm on a continual learning curve to be a better Ally and I struggle to accept the apparent lack of basic human decency and what else and feels like an overwhelming number of my fellow Americans. I believe we would all be better off if we took a deep breath and chill shows kindness.

04:13 I do. I'm really curious about the recovering attorney statement.

04:30 Well, I joke about it. So I am I am a licensed attorney in Colorado currently inactive because after I have my children, I still decided to keep working with an affordable housing but instead of practicing on the legal side. I work more on the front room side with with public housing, but I joke about the recovery return to just because when you're an attorney.

05:19 Well sadly there does seem to be a lot of overlap with addiction in it and my profession. I think that I think when I was in school.

05:32 But if I remember, I think it's your knees have the highest rates of addiction and substance abuse their unhappiness with the profession, but I had nothing but experience has both going to school here in Colorado and practicing for 7 years. I know many of my account so I was born and grew up in Warsaw. And after we came to the US I lived in Chicago for most of my life and then from there moved to Denver so I you know Denver is not that big but it is pretty big compared to most of their cities I guess.

06:32 We moved here in 2005. So 15 years.

06:41 Okay, and how long did you move from?

06:50 Yeah, that's that's just about how long I've been here to.

06:55 Soundproof a grew up right on the border of the area about an hour west of Washington DC but I was kind of always in general. Yes, I agree. That's what I done this about Chicago either it is cold and cloudy and

07:35 Wendy

07:38 Just wondering if if each of you could hit sorry to interrupt us going to pit a little bit if it's a little bit just to thinking about. Yeah, you're at your political views and I think it may be as my relates to the right meaning and it mostly has to do with my faith.

08:05 So I would consider myself a pretty person not far far, right but pretty conservative as far as how it relates to the Staples and name change. I don't know if it's my political views that has anything to do with that. I think it all goes back to my fate and like I said my faith is pretty much the center of my life more so than any than the political leanings.

08:33 So

08:35 Personally, I didn't want to see the Stapleton name change go.

08:45 Infer for several reasons, would you like me to expound on that?

08:50 This point okay?

08:55 I think the biggest reason was that.

09:01 I believe that.

09:03 We've had well, we've had many people in history that history of the United States people who we can go back now and say, oh they they were not up to standard stay messed up and for me whether it's a historical person or a person I know now a friend or family.

09:28 You know, I live with the idea that we all need to be forgiven many many times as God forgives us unlimited number of times and so

09:44 Even though the name Stapleton, you know to too many people were alive now is very hurtful.

09:53 I came the position of yes, it is under stand it can be hurtful. But at the same time, you know you I don't believe we can just erase people or remove them. We need to forgive the wrongs that they've done and move on that way because I think that's where the healing is. If you allow yourself to forgive that person the name is not going to bother you anymore. But so I think the real healing is not by removing us a name of a person or anyting any other name. It's just with how you are able to deal with it inside.

10:35 So that that's where I was coming from and I was one of the reasons I can think about another reason after maybe Melissa shares her side.

11:03 Go ahead. So I would describe myself now as pretty liberal and general I as I said my bio, I grew up in a very conservative household in a very conservative area of the country to

11:24 I think probably probably during college even though I begin I'll let you look pretty conservative institution to I just started meeting different people with different opinions that kind of helped shaped my opinions little bit differently. I started working in public service right out of undergrad and that continue to shape my political views more particularly working in affordable housing where

11:56 Where I just saw that many people didn't have the opportunities that predominantly white community that I grew up in even even though relatively low income to have access to homeownership Opportunities. For example, and I think over time

12:20 You know by my beliefs and I wouldn't I'm not I'm not a person of strong faith, but I have a lot of a lot of overlap when it comes to a basic sense of morality and how we should treat people and take care of people. So take care of our elderly and disabled community members and maybe someone who's down on their luck and you know needs a little bit of assistance from the rest of the community and I think all of those together over time to the push me definite word liberal Direction politically. I also don't think that

13:04 I don't think it's my political view is but I think more just smile.

13:12 My my personal feelings that led me to support the name change and Anna's a mentioned earlier.

13:24 It was definitely a journey when I don't think I knew when I moved to I lived in Denver for a longer, but when I

13:34 She work her neighborhood. I don't think I knew that the I knew that I Stapleton to the old airport, but I don't think I I don't think I knew of the but I've been Stapleton Pacific leaves you being the leader in the KKK so many years ago back friends thing. We can't believe you're moving to Stapleton and you know, I think I thought at the time of you don't people would make jokes and say oh it's like Pleasantville people did probably say, oh it's so white Suburbia, but in hindsight, I think some of those people were thinking

14:21 Also about the name and in the history to that name that I I frankly wasn't even aware of so when the when the first vote came up

14:33 I I did vote in favor of the chain, but I wasn't vocal about it. I don't think I felt this strongly about it. And then with this most recent round, I think some of the unrest in the country and truly not necessarily political unrest but the timing of events over head to vote for Pleasantville games that I don't know. I didn't want to share my second reason is because it was really a big part of my expression at the time that I shared with other people.

15:21 You know, I feel that we still need to keep names of things that happened in history so that we remember and we reflect on it and just because a certain place is named after a person that has negative connotations associated with doesn't mean that were actually honoring the place and what I mean by that is is it how do we perceive the name? I think a lot of things after people because we do honor them but you know like Sand Creek Massacre. We don't honor the massacre. We we want for what happened there. So that's how I looked at the name Stapleton and if we could you know the next Generations like look you need to know who this man was what he did, you know, he did good things but he did bad things to and that's why his name is important to remember so that's that's where

16:21 I was coming from and really I thought that would be there could have been better changes made like a memorial in Stapleton to hit me up to two people who were maybe hurt by the KKK you like a place of reflection of like Sand Creek Massacre or been in Memorial to come and sit and reflect, you know, like a national park or something like that, you know just a small area. So you could reflect on the place and what happened and why the name stayed it would explain to you why we kept the name.

17:25 Yeah, I think that's an interesting and perspective and I appreciate you sharing that because I I think there is an assumption that everyone who didn't want the name to change didn't want it to change because they supported Ben Stapleton or they think he was a wonderful person and you know people just tend to look at things very black and white and you know, I can appreciate you explaining that perspectives of of how you feel that you think it's an important history lesson, you know, whether it's good or bad I think for me and enlisting in particular to my friends who are not White 2

18:11 Word much warm Arms by by the KKK van and I do realize that the KKK also was harmful to certain religious groups than and too many white people as well. But many of the worst times. I think we often think of individuals and families to work wait and when I talk to my friends who aren't white what I hear from them is that it's ongoing harm to have a references in everyday conversation to this man. You know, when when someone said where you moving to and I said Stapleton I didn't say but let me be clear then Stapleton was a terrible person. I don't support this that the other and I think part of that is because again, I didn't know his history, but that's also I think to just toss the name.

19:11 You know, so casually without representative without any.

19:19 Any contacts our discussion and daily life of you know that there were these atrocities propagated by this being is harmful over and over and over the many people are greater Denver Community including people who either live in this neighborhood where his chosen not to live in this neighborhood because of

19:51 Yeah, I think that's that's both great you curious?

19:57 I'm getting a little bit of a cold sore.

20:02 Melissa do

20:07 Do you have

20:14 Do you feel like the people who who were against the name change or do you feel do you feel misunderstood by people who are against the name change and anyway?

20:26 I don't think I personally feel misunderstood. I think I was.

20:33 Disappointed

20:37 More so at the outset by

20:41 By listening to assumptions that were made on on kind of both sides of the issue and again going back to everyone who's against in against it must be racist and everyone whose forecast must be some left-wing snowflake liberal has Extreme as possible on each side and I do think there's a one of my closest friends. Although she was very in support of the name felt strongly that the name Shane should not be named a person and again they are, you know, I personally tried to take the approach of listening to the people who

21:32 Who requested the change and who indicated that they were most harmed by the name of the daily basis and trying to listen to what they wanted and even that's difficult because you know, not everyone wants the same thing even amongst non-white individuals and family who wanted the name to change but I don't think I felt personally attacked for were my opinion.

22:03 I think it was kind of these broad generalizations if you're on this side or you're on that side and if you're on this, I mean, I totally understand and you know how people of color spelled v I had many discussions on our community page or I read many of the people of color another people in favor of the name changed in my heart goes out to you know, they just want to go along with it, but people who are really hurt by it. My heart goes out to them and I would never not take their opinion under consideration. I just

22:57 I said in the beginning I just have better way for us to heal sometimes and if we talk about different options of healing whether it's snowing in medicine or spiritual healing or income physical healing there are options that we can look and sometimes we don't see that we only think about what we know what we've been exposed to the first thing that comes to your mind. How what's the easiest way for us to heal? So do those were you know other things that's looking at knowing that I also had a lot of friends mostly conservative friends who wanted the name change and again, like I'm not waking servative and I'm not very liberal. I'm not liberal, but I wanted to be somewhere in the middle and understand how can I help both sides? How can I agree with both sides and come to a conclusion that maybe make sense, you know, maybe to the

23:57 Do people like your friends and Melissa? Maybe my my options wouldn't matter, you know, maybe they're just this is the way it is supposed to be and that's the only option for me and I want the name gone, right but I do respect everyone's opinion. So

24:17 Sorry, that was long.

24:59 No, no, I think I think it's important to hear how you feel about it.

25:07 Yeah, and there are many things that you said that that I do agree with you know, I think going back to what you said at the beginning about you know, forgiveness is the best way to heal. I think I personally can agree with that in you know in situations in my own life where you know, I feel that someone has wronged me but I also don't think that I can personally fathom what many of my friends of color have gone through were hundreds of years and for what they still continue to experience today. I mean Sally all we have to do is turn on the news any given day and you knows

25:54 It's been what seems increasingly brutal over the last few months, but you know, maybe it's also just get more attention and has been happening all along to some degree. But I think I think coming back to Healing so personal for individuals to and so I really appreciate hearing that you do you say that that you respect everyone's individual feeling on the matter. I think where I came from was why I was so adamant about whether or not even 30 years of World War II.

26:54 I made a connection between Hitler and Stapleton and that was very it was very frowned upon. Let me just say that on our neighborhood page and I think it's because people so often can I see past the surface they read the first sentence and they ignore the rest of the story. So where I was coming from I was saying, you know, my family had a huge connection to Hitler and how many millions of people were killed by him? And how would I feel if I lived in a neighborhood called Hitler bill, you know?

27:36 And that's where I started thinking about this. How would I foresee this? Obviously if someone named a city or a neighborhood after Hitler, I would hope that their reasons were just this do not forget this man in the atrocity atrocity said she did I would not think that they named it to honor this person. Although I know there were places in Germany that were named after him to honor him. So I put myself in those shoes and my past and my family's history and how I could forgive a man like Hitler and move past that and again, you know, this is deeply personal because of my face and I know it would be hard for a lot of people you have to be in a certain place to be able to go to forgive people who have done horrible things. So again, very personal to me and I don't expect everyone to share that opinion.

29:17 Yeah, and I I mean the one opinion I certainly do share with you is that I do think forgiveness and be a real key to Healing, you know, I think I think an interesting distinction for me in in the two comparisons of a hypothetical Community name to Hitler bill or if we want to take just down the road to swastika acres and I think it was Cherry Hills Village that was just finally renamed officially on paper within the last year or two.

29:56 When when we think about that comparison, you know, I appreciate hearing that your reaction would be will of course. No one would have named it after that accepts to remember the atrocity that occurred until we learn from it, but I think in the case of Stapleton that's not why it was named after him. The airport was named after him to the political figure lni. Do you know in the grand scheme of you know human redemption and forgiveness and the fact that he did, you know, it's announced later in his life.

30:38 Is involved with the KKK and you know, we'll never truly know what the motivations for that and I'm not trying to suggest that I do admit. He redeemed himself by become a good person at the end because I don't I don't truly know what was in his heart at the end. But I mean I do in the grand scheme of things believe in forgiveness and believe in human Redemption, but I think you're knowing the history of our neighborhood maybe some of us would have felt differently if there was a historical record of this community after this person because of the horrible atrocities and we want to make sure that no one ever forgets what happened, but I think knowing that it was that it was named after him to honor him despite the horrible atrocities that that he was not only a part of but a leader in

31:35 In the KKK KKK. I think that makes it easier for me to try and understand the the pain but how did that happen? Well, gosh through a lot of prayer. It's something that that I can do on my own, you know, there are people who are alive. Now. There are other people post me. My mother is mentally ill and made my life very difficult.

32:25 But she is my mother and I choose to well with God's help much much help. I choose to see past that and help her as much as I can even though she sees me as the enemy now. There are other people out there not my family, like people we see on Facebook that you know, we see their mugshot people who have done horrible things whether they're rioting or burning or killing.

32:55 I asked my friends to find it in their heart to pray for these people for their conversion for to forgive them because people do horrible things for very many different reasons that we have no idea and we choose to make assumptions a lot this person did a bad thing. They're horrible. They should be hurt in return. And again, we don't know where people are coming from why they do the things they do. So again, it's it takes a lot of prayer to get us to a place where we can see a person who killed someone else and instead of wishing them ill we asks, you know, if there are there still alive we ask

33:45 That their hearts will be converted and you know to me that is much more powerful. That is something that can happen to a person we can change them with with good things with with good thoughts with prayers. We can't change them. If we bash them more, you know, if we wish them ill there they're probably going to be even worse and I think a lot of us can see that in our in our lives if we yell at our child even more they're probably going to resent us or it's so we need to love in return as much as hard as that is a lot of times.

35:10 Yeah, and I think

35:12 You know, I as a said I am not a person of Faith but something that I've always appreciated about many people in my life who are close to me of different faiths, but have strong faith whether it be Christianity or Judaism or many other face is

35:34 They're very good people and you know live by a moral code that aligns with the things that are important to me too, and and I completely agree with you about that.

35:48 You know, I think through kindness and forgiveness.

35:53 I think we can do so much more to

36:00 To not only heal but to hopefully create a better sense of community a more inclusive community. But I think we can do that simultaneously by listening and fully respecting the experience and the feelings of others and trying to show them kindness where they need it.

36:28 You know, I hurt breaking to hear you. Talk about your mother.

36:37 That's really that's really sad to hear and I'm sorry about that.

36:45 I think everyone truly.

36:49 The last few years most of the people I know had.

36:54 Miniature, you know falling outs with family members friends over, you know, I truly don't think it's over politics at the end of the day. I think it's over.

37:09 These these things that really matter and I think if we took the time to talk more about what we have in common such as

37:24 The basic tenants of your faith and how you treat people are very similar to when I say, I want to see more human decency and kindness in the world. I think if we if we really look down there. They're the same thing and

37:46 You know, I just

37:48 It sounds like you're a wonderful person at you know, one of the things that you were talking that I started thinking about was for whatever reason the death penalty is when you were talking about.

38:04 People can do horrible things that we need to forgive them. And you know, that's that's one of the issues on the political spectrum that growing up in a very conservative household household and raised to be very conservative. You know. What this is eye for an eye mentality was was very strong. And I think one of the first things that led me away from a more conservative political ideology was hearing sister Prejean talk about how she was either one of my heroes one thing that

39:04 What do you believe what I am as well, he is inside capital punishment. So there are things that yes, I agree with him on certain things. But in other things he doesn't follow me know my face. And again, like you said we can it's not all one side or the other. We're always going to fall somewhere in between. Even when it comes to the environment. I was always a very very conscious of the environment. They're green person. Most of my friends. Who will you looked at me? Like, who are you? I thought you were conservative. Yeah. It was like very strange Deport them to think that I could be this way and that way I'm like these two things are not, you know, two separate things.

40:04 Dad teaches me to to respect my creation. And so I do my part but a lot of people like you said they tend to think well, if you're this way, this is how you're supposed to think and if you're that way that's how you know.

41:02 Play yeah, I totally from and I think we need to learn more about you know, a person behind a Facebook post that starts off by saying I'm in favor of the name Chase rhyme against the name change is an automatically, you know, check these 10 boxes on the conservative ticket or check these 10 boxes on the liberal ticket. You know, I think it's something that over time religion to that because I was raised in a Christian household, but they're frankly kind of disenfranchised me from organized religion was hearing.

41:53 Dreaming of a sudden mandate from the church that we attended that we should be voting one way or another or feel this way on a particular issue or another across-the-board. It just didn't seem to line up with is you said you can take one politician and everything. He believes, you know isn't going to be in line with your feet and I think that's a perfect example environmentalism, you know. Yeah, the Bible says we should be stewards of the earth and I think it's great to hear someone such that are being willing to adhere to

42:36 Did those what I would say basic principles of just Humanity?

42:43 So I appreciate you sharing that too.

42:47 One of the things I wanted cuz I know we're nearing the end of her time here is that that I want to talk about was?

42:55 You know my I have a 3 1/6 year old and

43:01 Today weather for my three year olds class it was

43:07 They were supposed to dress up like their favorite role model.

43:10 My daughter want to be an astronaut and I was trying to explain like well, you know usually is like a particular person. She was a year old girl wants to be pretty stubborn too. But one of the things I heard the most from friends and acquaintances the people of color during the name change was you know, where where are the role models for for our children where where are the public displays of appreciation or all of the many role models who have come before us but just haven't been honored that there aren't Romo out there. There's

44:10 But where where where is the publicity for those and we have all of these institutions particularly in a community like Denver that I miss the part where I'm less, LOL. I really thought you were talking about one of your children in a row, but I didn't honor for some color here. Now again, whether I have friends on different sides that is well said well, you know, either we support changing the name or even if we don't support changing it if you know for goodness sake if it's going to be changed, let's make sure we don't make the same mistake and named it after a person again, and I mean that released I just feel like

45:01 Maybe it's just our turn to step back and give these little kids the opportunity to grow up in a community named after 1.

45:17 Thanks for sharing that Melissa. I just got a looks like Caroline can't hear you. She just lost the audio. Okay.

45:39 Shoot. Okay. So basically what I was just trying to say was that, you know, like had this conversation with my daughter this morning about role models and having listened to your friends Queens of public figures, you know people of color who have said that, you know how difficult it is to not have their communities.

46:16 Role models

46:18 Ever acknowledge in this, you know, important historical institution, you know naming Convention Way and in that doesn't mean that they never are there exceptions to every rule but I mean overwhelmingly the number of City statues schools are overwhelmingly individuals than typically white males.

46:51 Expresar conveyor understand what that what that would feel like to be a person of color and not have those those opportunities, but but I can stay as a woman. I know what it feels like to grow up and everywhere you look, you know, you only men being honored and you know, 40 years ago when I was born secretly where I grew up that was pretty common and so he's basically just saying that

47:22 You know, I think that there was a missed opportunity in the name change and whether you supported the change whether you didn't support the change, I think we really had the opportunity to just give sculpin Elsa turn for their children to to have their role models honored publicly. And so that was a great disappointment to me in the name change.

47:57 Yeah, I also I also I don't I don't love Central Park either. I think it's Improvement. But other you know special Europe emotion, you showed that mostly that's where my car up so you can see those emotions. You can only hear you can see people's negative comments only react to the words that give you but differently.

48:57 Army it was beautiful to see you Melissa and share that emotional connection you have with your friends who are Rick drilling a truly affected by the name. So thank you for this opportunity.

50:30 Yeah, I totally agree with you Caroline. I think one of the sad things are really on where there were many public forums where I think it's this group mentality. We're getting people fall into you know, you're on this side you're on this side and I think it's more people had one-on-one conversations. They could get to the point where they can find some commonality and and they might still agree to disagree at the end of the day, you know, I'm the ultimate outcome, but they can they can at least find some shared common conversation going.

51:10 Thank you, too.

51:13 Thank you both.