Charlene Saner and Jose Garth

00:01 It is Tuesday December 1st. I'm in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania. And my partner is Jose and he is my partner for this discussion for storycorps.

00:16 My name is Jose. I'm 38 years old. It's December 1st and Pittsburgh Pennsylvania. And Charlene is my one small step.

00:33 Sertraline why did you want to do this interview today?

00:41 I really enjoy our conversation and building relationships and this seemed like a really great way to do that in a different way than what I often get a chance to.

00:57 I want you to do is going to be today.

01:01 Pretty much the same thing. I find it really interesting to get a chance to dialogue with.

01:08 Person shot may have not had that chance otherwise, and I'm open to here with other people's thoughts and feelings are different topics.

01:18 And I'm a talker so

01:23 Meet me too. I think I could describe myself in soccer. If you could please read it out loud, and then a rabbit.

01:37 Okay, I'm a single father with 15 year old boy born and raised in Pittsburgh. I rent a violence prevention program out of planned parenthood's education department. I have taught sex ed for nearly a decade and I've been doing Youth Development work since the age of 19 the Year. My son was born my brother was murdered my brother's murder the loss of other friends and family members has kept me motivated and my violence prevention work.

02:08 I'm really interested in how you got started with with Planned Parenthood without a program you developed or

02:21 So I no longer work out pack doing very similar work.

02:36 Planned Parenthood though because

02:45 There was an opening I have for a position that seemed really interested in me. If you can suck the head that was eight years ago. Really I join more than anything just to have access to classrooms. That's what I love to do. I love to teach I love working with you. I love to see you in a community work. So it check off the boxes for what I was looking for as far as a civilian career in that role only thing I stepped in on you very little about sexual health and I was really excited when I got there to really kind of dive in and learn a lot more and I did learn times and then after about

03:31 For years. I I developed a balance rental program through so generous funding from the fisa foundation. And yeah, it was a program that I am up and about four years.

03:53 I just wanted to ask Jose. What was it like or what maybe what inspired you to start the violence prevention program? And how did you think of the different things you wanted to talk about in that program?

04:07 I

04:11 I was invited to be a part of a cohort of male leaders in Pittsburgh called mentors in violence prevention and it was

04:23 74 days of kind of like training in discussion with 28th 2028 what ways there's a connection to gender and violence and different strategies and I left.

04:44 IMDb the program and also doing some work in Pittsburgh and there's a funny option that opened up for a program card coaching boys into men which focuses on male athletes and

05:10 Getting them to look at different behaviors are all sexual harassment sexual. So I'm also think about how some natural remedies for that. And after I apply flagrant 5 to call in and said that they prefer if I applied to a different Grant make my own I did that and honestly by the strategy that I started with I don't want to abandon but I changed a lot of my focus in response to I work a lot of young men and early on.

05:51 A lot of the focus was on violence towards women Still Remains the focus, but I found out when talking to the young man.

06:00 They felt very discounted from the conversation because they had experienced off the balance themselves from cheers from adults in life and police officers from security in school. So for me a cult

06:14 Stop disingenuine. Okay to like ignore what they're going through. So we always you know.

06:22 Gender is a real issue. Especially come to volunteers connection, especially among men and and violent behaviors and acted towards women or men and that you going to matter what no matter what your gender is. Obviously if you're being harmed that's not okay and that pain is real so

06:45 Charlene are you there? I'm here. Okay, we stopped for me too, but I'm sure he'll come back in but he's Frozen.

07:04 I'm going to park at Ashley.

07:09 I think he's probably just going to leave and come back in. How are you holding the song?

07:16 I'm fine. Okay, are you able to tilt it down so we can see your face a little more think that I should be good.

07:30 I'm going to

07:32 See

07:34 We can get him back.

07:43 You doing okay?

07:56 Room right. I wonder why.

08:00 Yeah, that image isn't showing up on your computer be great. If we could get it back on there. I see a red light and you know, so.

08:17 I don't know if that red light means recording hot but

08:30 Okay. I'm going to call Jose real quick. Okay?

08:48 No problem. You were just describing a little bit more about some of the violence prevention work that you had been doing and working with young man in particular and kind of the change in focus from bios sort of gender-based violence to a little bit more than that. What we'll do now actually is I've dropped in Charlene's bio if you could read that and then ask her a question about it.

09:20 By the time I was 11 years old, I knew I never wanted marriage and children go to calling for Social Service. I'm a strong advocate for persons who are disenfranchised persons with disabilities those experiencing homelessness. It's politically I lean toward Republican values yet. I hate most of the Republican leadership for tickling the last past 4 years. I've only not voted twice since I turned 18 and both times I was

09:46 When I first look

09:57 But their political leaning towards Republican value as what

10:06 What that meant to you when you say republican values Okay, so

10:12 I am now I'm talking about General Republican values. I mean some that are even going back toward Lincoln and the old school values that you don't see that exist today. Is that more less being family values and taking responsibility for families.

10:38 It used to be that.

10:42 Republicans were more centered around

10:47 Self responsibility responsibility for your own destiny sort of that type of thing. So less depending on social programs that are handouts but more focused on.

11:06 Helping to uplift people to do time it took to make it on their own more or less. So and that's sort of a a general. I'm truly try to watch my words here because usually Republican is such a red flag in this day and time so I won't bore the family values more strict adherence to morality.

11:35 But with the understanding that we all fall short in terms of moral concerns.

11:44 But I

11:47 Should only that morality and spirituality should be in the household and

11:58 Is ideas really self responsible, you know on early enough enough the Republican party used to reflect some of the Kwanzaa principles now, it's not so much that today, but if you get to the base of the party and is it is actually is those things more self-driven kind of purposeful life instead of please give me more we can you give me because you're my government and you owe me that there are things that the government

12:41 Okay. Well, alright. Here's what I think.

12:46 I don't think necessarily the government owes us. I mean the country the people more less and I

12:59 Brakes

13:02 I don't think that's necessarily going to happen. And I don't want that to be it's a lot of times we use that as an excuse to say will you owe me? So therefore I'm not going to do what I can do for myself for example in the fifties and sixties 40s 50s and 60s when persons of color were denied education man the right to vote, even though we technically have the right to vote and job opportunities. So many churches had colleges you go to your church and get a master's degree because the community came together and said they don't want us and our schools. That's all right, we will become accredited and will teach our own so that opportunity which one that we were willing willing to take because we had to question just to clarify

14:02 Why are you in that example saying that the service at the church provided with something that the government should have provided and just a little bit that we go at that time people didn't think about what the government told them maybe because they knew they weren't going to get it anyway, so they moved past that and did for self. So people didn't stand around lamenting about how they're denied opportunity. They took opportunity and that doesn't really exist today. I think in the community at Large.

14:40 Jose go ahead if you had a question, but I'd love to hear your response to that as well as like why you wanted to ask a bit more about having Republican values and whether you think of anything.

14:56 I don't I don't think Republicans Or democrats is a party really have any value.

15:02 I

15:05 I feel

15:07 When it comes to the government, it's not.

15:12 It's not some, you know, if you're going to see that just exist in space. It's human beings doing work for other human beings. You know, I I personally have been on public assistance receive Food Stamps before I receive other subsidies. I worked on projects that were federally funded by the federal government.

15:43 I'll ask for help. The time to my life from individuals and organizations from the state and from the federal government as far as you know the sipping plant.

15:58 You know the places that I've I've worked in our very

16:03 Very impoverished. I know that I would never describe the people who are looking for handouts not trying to do for so opportunity opportunity when you live in a place where you know transportation is an issue, so, you know,

16:23 You have to get to work. It takes me an hour and a half to get there on a bus. So then I have to work harder so I can get a car and I get a car and I have to get insurance and interrupted has lots of barriers there to talk to you about you in the last few years had a really interesting kind of experience with my child. He goes to a private school. So you know he

16:51 Motion classmates answer doctors and lawyers in and you know, there's there's probably more people who are and the seven-figure club in impoverished mean that's cool and I see his peers there and I know that anybody in that school would have to do a lot of wrong for them to fail and I drop them off at school when I drive over to Westinghouse or performance goals and in the state, I don't think it's asking me that it's a grande black school and in performance of bully and I don't put that on the student. I put that on the system and that they're not getting what they need and that

17:34 Most of the students in that school

17:37 Despite their best efforts

17:40 Are going to really fall and NFL a lot and I really try my best not let them internalize that and then blame himself that all the time because I don't believe that we all exist on even play. I do feel that leadership needs to

17:56 How to duty to lead and to assist and a help when I see

18:02 When I see the the the the true hand out this country. I really see go to corporations.

18:09 You know it corporate welfare is in it while the handouts are going. You know, we have you know, you say before the corporation are too big to fail and banks are too big to fail, you know, but if I'm small small NFL right now, it's okay. I can get you know something the rug and I asked you a lot of it. I feel it. I feel a lot of demonizing the folks to

18:29 We're really struggling and I'm putting it on them as somebody who has to go to live my own life, you know, and I've made lots of mistakes next to my selfie very fortunate to be where I'm at. Now. Just alive let alone like alive and thriving

18:42 And you know, I really think that

18:46 If folks early on in my life.

18:49 And like throughout my life had been there and ways if my if if my state and my city government had been there in the station that I want to have to deal with some issues like homelessness. I want to have to deal with issues of underemployment. I won't have to deal with issues of you know, being a single father living in poverty and I take responsibility for a lot of things to wear and up. I made a lot of bad choices a teenager with the kids and I made a bad choice of the kids, you know, and I had to find a young age and you know that was not on purpose and you know, that was something I did not do that used to have him but my choice to be having him, you know, and that could extra burden on my finances in my opportunities and I didn't so I shouldn't have to be an exceptional person to get past barriers. I feel like it's taking a sexual thing to me to get here. I feel the least of us should still succeed. I don't feel like you have to be an exceptional human being to have basic needs met such as

19:49 Water Shelter, you know that's like, you know, I think that's just basic every human being deserves it. I don't care. If you're a child murderer in prison, if you have basic needs met if your if your lab is no reason that you taken care of and to just trust me the number to do that is not enough cuz I'm not feeding them. They're all I've been working on it for years. I believed you do to reading

20:13 So I generally I just don't I don't see value in politics. I see talking points. I see talking head locally more. So like I was really happy to support some early locally and Sarah Morado who I really believe in and I respect and consider to be not just good leaders, but also good friends of the people when it comes in that supposed to get fuel up and listen to the heart from your majesty. I can make it to the White House without being a little while before lack of better word who who who haven't lied cheated and and and done things, you know them favors and kept secrets and things like that for their political careers. So I think I can smell from you cuz I was raised in a household where we didn't

21:05 We didn't we didn't engage with the police. I was always at and never sleep the black matter life. You know, we said that you voted every single time. I never vote until Obama and honestly I voted for Obama.

21:27 That's why I never had that done with that. I could ever trust and then you're saying that earlier. I really appreciate that about this like, you know, people didn't people knew they were going to get it now. I'm really trying to find solutions that are more local and in that can replicate another places, but that doesn't mean I'm going to take our leaders off the hook for what they what they should be doing for us. I think those things and hold them accountable.

21:58 Charlene can I ask you to speak a little bit too?

22:04 The what was there ever an instance or a moment where you kind of developed this perspective that you have around public assistance and where that comes from and then just your feelings on public assistance and those safety nets that you described and you know, your experiences working, you know with those experiencing homelessness and kind of working with nonprofits that addresses does issues.

22:34 Okay. Yeah, but first I just doesn't want to tell Jose in terms of corporate welfare. That makes me Steve all of those things in the whole mechanism of the rich getting richer. It is an outrage.

22:51 But for me, and let's just take the government out of it when I miss and I would I would like for us to hold dear is the principle that we can take care of each other because we've done it before and that was like the incidents especially way in cell you could go to college because you're charged make sure you would the college percentage-wise. We aspire to be teachers and Ministers of faith in in the medical field much more than we do now and we Face much more tremendous odds, there were some more soup to Unity. There is more expensive neighborhood.

23:40 And there was more sense of responsibility. So

23:46 Wow, it's nice to say Insurance government should and should be all of us a dinner together. It wasn't a hundred years ago. It wasn't 30 years ago, and it's not going to be now. So except we have to say we've learned from our history.

24:03 And we're going to do what we can and we seem to use as an excuse the government owes us. And so that is weird.

24:15 For me

24:18 It gets a little iffy memory as we talked a little bit about where babies come from my father.

24:28 What's a black man from the south graduated as valedictorian at the age of 13 and a half lied about his age went into World War II and then came to Pittsburgh Berry by woman who was a lot younger now, my dad and another world.

24:48 It should have been in could have done more because I've never met anybody is brilliant is as he was and he was very settled self-sufficiency portrait because he grew up in the South and had a father who died very young and had a stepfather who iPhone years after my dad died brutalized him so he came and he was determined to make a new start for himself. So

25:18 After he married my mother when they had hard times, they just had hard time since and they both developed very good careers, and we're able to become self-sustaining in for my father is you was I will never need anything from you government because you think that I can't do it you think because I am a black man. I need that hand out and I do it. So that's largely. We're my principles come from and I heard my father started taking me to the poles with him from the time. I was five and I hear that virtually every day, so

26:01 So bye-bye facts about getting help from the government largely stem from from where my dad was coming from and he felt that the government site that we were ignorant as person two colors that we didn't have talent that we couldn't do anything and so it was an insult for him to take anything from these people who didn't think that he was as much man as someone with blonde hair and blue eyes.

26:36 Yeah, it's really you're probably sound like a really extraordinary man. And I really I really believe feel like I've been fortunate in the work that I do that I see a lot of people like I I think last year was something like 1,500 people within a year that just feel like work just the service and the people interact with a few that had an attitude of everybody owes me. I don't need to do nothing for myself. I feel most people want to do for themselves. I feel it's a rare to find somebody who

27:25 Doesn't want to have gainful employment who doesn't want to provide from the self and others and I feel very kind of that. Do come across me like that cuz you do something underneath there. That's really going on Beyond just that attitude, right the weather weather supposed to, whether it's just them never have an opportunity to ever be taught how to take care of themselves and how to care for themselves and and and that and that's where I feel greater systems and that's what the government like, you know, you mentioned churches and and I feel like nonprofit and for-profit, you know all all have a part to play in making sure that nobody slips through the cracks like I want you. I don't believe it's okay that you have to be

28:11 Perfect exceptional to thrive in this world, you know an exceptional and still not drive.

28:25 Who are already like in in high school and even a middle school in some cases are already in the system, right? And it's just them that that.. Lock them up track the movement and it just waiting for this and you know, I think a lot of our lives were lost because of government intervention because of policing because of a criminal justice system. That doesn't respect her see black people. It's going to be a bad person and I deserve everything.

28:59 People died in jail all the time people, you know that that have done crimes that now won't be white poster making money off of right from from from from the selling marijuana, you know and do poverty through lack of political strength lack of

29:29 Any sort of economic opportunities and a systemic breakdown of the black family from from the crack epidemic from from all the games and in the 90s, you know, that that that wasn't just

29:45 Black folks in the country to shoot myself in the foot. They were led into those Direction, you know, so I just want to hear your opinion on what Jose saying that some of these like the things that have been lost are things that have actually not just been lost but we're structurally sort of design that way by government and this idea maybe that Jose is saying that the government is by developing these programs is providing assistance to overcome that is that something that you see or do you have other thoughts on the way certain whether it's failing or police and other systems are

30:28 Reacting to this year.

30:36 Well, I agree but I did but I also think the component that's missing there is personal responsibility from families. And at least four people of African descent. It's been proven because we've done it that we've bypassed all that man strong families and strong values and had good Educational Systems and low crime rates in all those things and it was harder than because people were denied those opportunities. So I do but now I do believe that the system overall is very manipulative in this line for I believe the system overall is designed for white males. And that's it. That's a truly believe that however,

31:28 I can't sit back and allow that to drive my life.

31:33 So I have to take responsibility if I have a kid, that's not going to listen to me or brings a gun in the house or stalking back or I have to take responsibility if my kid is bringing in new clothing, but I've never brought her to put a book in the house or

31:56 You you you you do $400 tennis shoes versus a laptop. I have to take responsibility for that and I say that because I know people who have siblings children and grandchildren and that was their lifestyle and they turned the other cheek and a lot of them just wanted the money a lot of them didn't want to take the time and investment and so

32:19 And of course, that's just not all people. That's just not that's not everyone but I do believe whatever segment of the population that is that is done that we should be held accountable because we are the ones that fail and so and then we are most likely the ones to say we rode something we didn't teach our children and then we are we are so upset that they're thrown in jail this horrible system. How could that happen? So

32:54 Nnnmmm. We're certainly Mercer to quickly record a quit to do that. So.

33:02 Youth anyone deserves a violent death anyone I don't believe in the death penalty. I don't believe it. I mean violence overall, but if you know your child is 14 and he or she is out till 3 or 4 in the morning and you know, you hear the language come out with his mouth and you choose to ignore it because you're going down the street to the party then don't get on TV and say my baby my baby. Why did my baby get shot?

33:41 Jose you're there, right?

33:49 Hey, hey Charlene. Are you there?

33:52 I mean

33:55 You're there.

33:57 Okay, can you show me the last thing you were saying now? We can here yet. It went off a little bit. You were just saying that is expressing his frustration. I think there's like not intervening in your children's lives and then being upset like when if something happens you like could speak to that with your background and violence prevention and how you think about some of these issues. I was a kid who was out till 3 in the morning I ran away from home a lot as a teenager my brother.

34:43 My brother also used to stay out all the time my brother serve time in prison for for for selling drugs.

34:54 And

34:56 My parents tried my mother, my mother went out and and looked all over the streets. Are me and everything but thing was she couldn't stop me from doing what I want to do in my mind when I think about accountability. I feel or the most people in this country.

35:15 I probably in the world, you know, I know very few black folks that don't pay for every mistake that they make I know very few people live in poverty.

35:27 Write that. Don't. Don't pay for every single mistake so I can I really hear what you're saying, but I don't really see this party would let you talk to kind of like her little bit.

35:44 With what would seem to be a very unhappy aesthetic view as to what people are going through cuz you know, my child is lost.

35:52 On my watch I am going to grieve and be broken. You know, I know that for a fact about I lost my brother I bought I bought so many people in my life. I got a lot a lot of people the most of the most of the drugs that's what that's that's enough people OD and people getting murdered.

36:10 And

36:12 I see that cost that paid and I've seen a lack empathy to come to me to think I broke my heart the most about my brother being murdered was.

36:21 Knowing that most people when they saw his face in the newspaper and hurt his store in the news.

36:26 Just it was nothing like it was just another black man who had served time in prison everyone through the foregone conclusion that he should be dead. If you were going to pee wee doing the wrong thing for the wrong place wrong time. It didn't matter that he ever that he was ever in prison. He could he could have been the doctor you still there at that time. They were shocking but nobody sees that right. It's just another another another the value of her life is so so low and I feel so many so many folks especially by frozen pork roast or put in this position of self-hatred and self-loathing because they feel with all their fault. I see that boy that people who are trying to blame the governor of everything and the people who are trying to hold the government accountable.

37:21 Bianca Street Fort for 4. I'm at Swan Road and and shut the shut down the city for it. And you continue to do it to this day. They really were demanding their like you're going to see me as a human being you're going to respect me. This is our city. We are of the utmost importance and you will see us and respective and you will not you will not use excuses to take our lives over and over and over again every like a guitar for deceased.

38:02 It's it's it's it's hard to see this Ram work that you've got. Your daughter had just don't don't have to see that way. I don't know but it doesn't seem to be section that happened is sometimes you get somebody whose parents like and I had to figure it out and I did figure it out. Thank you.

38:29 But you know that we got kids 15 16 17 have a kid. They say no less than I think that's 22.

38:47 Well, I'm so sorry that I came off as unimpressed said it in fact, ironically when I was in my twenties. I was a very again.

39:05 Charlene can you buy it's just cutting off a little bit so I can you try just maybe speak a little slowly and try to hold the phone just a little more still. I wonder if that helps a little bit but go ahead with your

39:25 You're saying I wanted then your aunt and I really

39:31 II my friends describe me as wanting to save the world and it drew and drove me into a deep deep deep depression that I had to be hospitalized because I couldn't understand and I you know, I had this bad relationship with God because I couldn't understand why people were treated unfairly even now I can't watch war movies. I particularly chip up watch movies where African-Americans on are being mistreated. I was a kid with roots came out in that just destroyed me. So I do have a lot of empathy but I think what happened is those kind of things have made me angry and I feel like how are we going to take this? Why aren't we taking more responsibility? Why are it's not and believe me. I know there are a whole lot of social problems.

40:30 Believe me. There are so many things that are in fear. I understand. I am a poor black woman. That is what I am. Now. I was raised a poor black woman, but that is what I have been trying. So I'm cutting myself in this. So for me, it's frustration, but these folks are going to help us and they should be accountable but they're not and we used to be such strong people such powerful people and I just don't see that now, so it's more anger other than it's more anger than than anything else. Like why are we taking what we have is a descendants of royalty of the strong people we are why are we not use it but we've been given so there's a lot of frustration in that and also because

41:27 We tend to label people in the way that we don't want to be labeled for example with the police.

41:36 So-so in it's frustration because I believe we could do better. I believe we are better and I don't think we overall as a group of people our daughter are best because I already know that it's a race we'd be unstoppable if we use some of what we have and I believe we can use very little what we have and I could you play a Pittsburgh and if you were born and raised in Pittsburgh, you already know that and I'm going to say this in I am and I'm going to use the word stupid. In a derogatory Tire been in Pittsburgh. I like to say we have a whole lot of Spooks. That's it by the door and when I say that I mean Spooks horse carry golf

42:26 Other people who want to make a difference who really can make a difference knocking them down so that they could not really changed the landscape. I do see that and that's a lot of people in my generation it older and that really is very frustrating. I think the local government hasn't gotten it right. I mean now people like you're sorry and maybe that's a German are finally getting some recognition, but overall, I think the black media gets it wrong. I mean our so-called Star Wars are really not start. I think people like you and her really doing a lot of work and

43:09 I I I do is in the bad again is the failure of us over all that we

43:19 We would have maintained control really not do anything and we're kicking other people down the ladder. Does that make sense?

43:32 Yeah, I hear your frustration and I should hear a lot of it. I truly actually do.

43:41 You know, I don't share your opinion about.

43:46 Distracted black folks right now like

43:49 I'm I'm I'm in all of all the brilliant hard-working black folks that I see and know in this city and I could there's you know, I'm not trying to like Tony Romo. Pittsburgh like we got issues. We got lots of issues, you know a question block Pittsburgh, you know, I watch Fox. Which I forgot was going on out there, but

44:17 I do probably lots of issues and for me, you know, when I think about the greatest assets we have that put it on a Level Playing Field. It is your family's right. I know once there is like that always fight back on. Is it. Do that black fathers are not in their kid laugh, even though the data shows that has been single and I know myself I got em, like I'm there and

45:00 I feel that's the great after we have to put some little things but we don't have the wealth, right?

45:06 We haven't had we've never had Capital wealth of white folks and Country. But once again with my son goes to school. I know he's going to be better in a lot of kids there because he has me and I get more times. I don't try to I don't try to buy his his his his next place retirement. Right? I'm not paying tutors tutor him. I'm at paying somebody else to take together. We work on things together and put them in a poke in a week.

45:38 And I think that's an appointment at if you don't think a lot of parents are go there or spend that much time with her kids and MN Dakota. Much Sweat Equity into their kids being successful. We'd a deal or you can join the firm right? It's a little bit this little bit simpler, but I really I really see the strap and in our community and you know, what paint it with one bridegroom at the store. I know, you know, I know I know I know these issues. I know there's a lot of you know, crab in a barrel mentality. I know a lot of people were trying to trying to see you control over all the program in and out crop and roll them in the Four Paw Patrol. Same thing. Right like, you know, what does that mean? He's not there but

46:20 I don't think it's from lack of white. I think most of us.

46:24 You want more unity and a lot of us are trying towards that but some of us.

46:29 Haven't been raised.

46:31 You know, we just had the Rays win when you ain't what you haven't shown you any way to go. If I was people can smell his smell that ignorance and smell that smell, you know, all the all the insecurity and everything and it going to exploit that so, you know, it's all the time with you know, young women for their for their bodies in urine bad for the body right to sell drugs to sell themselves or whatever it is, you know, people are people in there for that and you know people like us to keep that balance and keep the middle moving in the right direction, I do think we are moving in the right direction not at the face. I'd like to see you might need but I do feel the world getting better and I feel our communities are getting better.

47:27 If you give me the Magna brake.

47:33 What we're doing a lot better for a number of years and you know where I was at a place that I would ever. I wouldn't I would never been there before and it's a place not like I like, you know, I have my neighbors to my neighbors and their you know, so I think it's any better.

48:11 Charlene just a quick question for you because I understand like Jose was saying the frustration around.

48:22 Around what you're describing. I obviously can't relate but like the experience of a buckyball Tewksbury in particular and I was just wondering

48:30 With the the way you speak about Republican values in the way that you serve expressed frustration around like the the mentality around government assistance and public assistance Dukat how to conversations like this with Jose and the conversations that you have with. I mean that the people that you work with one-on-one and all the, you know social work and I'll probably work that you do.

48:53 How do you hold them at the same time? And do they change your mind at are on things?

48:59 Everyone doesn't fit into the same old first of all, so I'm in the people that I work with are truly disenfranchised. I mean bid for number reasons. It could be drug used for whatever reason escaping violence. I just not just general ignorance. There's a lot of reasons that

49:32 People end up in situations and but one thing I find about most people who end up being homeless. I have a lot of strength of a lot of resilience because I tell you what, it's a hell of a person that can live that way and for me I rent I actually focus in on

49:59 You know, you're you're you're smart a lot of them still to survive and I and I talked about how that could be invaluable to your shrewd, you know, how to work the system. So therefore you can you can get a job. You can talk your way into a job. You can do what you need to do to become self-sufficient and knowing that if you take care of yourself and you're self-sufficient, you won't find yourself in this place again, you won't have to rely on the government to pay your water or you don't make sure your your your home is secure your you're in the safe neighborhood if you don't like your neighborhood, why are you relying on these people that are saying this is where you go you do for sale. And so that's what I that's what I say because

50:57 You know, I see the value of some of these experiences that people have I mean their negative experiences, but they're also learning experiences.

51:12 Can you hear me at all? Okay, cuz everybody's froze. Yes.

51:21 I really appreciate that. We talked about the folks you work with that you really seem to have a strength-based approach to take to your work and you know, it kind of struck me because I didn't really hear that thing strength-based approach in your past talking about the white in the water the water population, you know, as far as like no black coaching black folks in Pittsburgh like to talk more about or deficit suppose our strength. So I do Wonder as far as the strength we supposed to do that. How would you see your reply that same thing that you do at work to?

51:56 Are communities that connected like the young kids who are out till 3 in the morning and get into trouble to you know, the folks who knew I haven't been able to cast out of public housing for their lifetime or four generations before.

52:12 Or whatever maybe

52:17 About

52:19 Pregnant and when I say a segment if you have a bowl of of fresh wonderful apples, you've all you need to do is put one in that is right in the whole Bowl will rot in that is what I'm talking about when I say, you know, we fell it's just that one rotten apple has

52:48 Really permeated, you know the rest of our culture and so I do see a responsibility for that. I mean if you have one parent we can't I think that we have to be held to another standard we have to hold ourselves to another standard because we do get trampled on as people of color and that's not changing anytime soon. It's not changing fast enough and it will probably never change. And in fact, I would like to say these past four years things have gotten a lot worse for people. So I'm

53:29 So yeah, I don't see that rotten apple as a strength. I see that rotten apple permeating throughout those of us who are by four of our children and what they're doing pretty simple you mention your mom went out and looked for you but there was a mom somewhere who didn't give a damn about what her kids did and you saw that and emulated their behavior. So

54:03 I see that Mom. That one mom is the right now Apple because what she allowed her children to do then poison the rest of them. So now moms like yours, you know, the Apple that wasn't broad is now having to deal with

54:24 All the other poison that went along just because someone didn't care someone didn't think their children was valuable and I just think that when we make a misstep, unfortunately and it is not fair, but once we make a misstep we are if we can't afford it.

54:47 I think it's also important just as bad as a thing right now again, I know that you're speaking to some of your larger beliefs Charlene, but also just making sure that we don't really know much about Jose or his mom or like that situation. So it's hard so kind of message do they put all those are just his mother went out and look for help me. Why was a loving caring mother would I would I would stay and Jose you understood what I meant by thing is I just I'm still not here in like like you feel that our community has any stores cuz like I was kind of question I was asked you was just like, you know,

55:34 Water strips that we're not using you. You know, what if you were through want to know the truth and that's probably sounds I even hate to say this, but I actually think

55:48 Birch people of color of the strongest smartest most resourceful people on the planet. That's what I truly believe. I believe that we are royalty. I believe we were just sending the royalty. I've never believed in for example in Jesus. I've never fallen in shorts or the blonde haired blue-eyed Jesus wouldn't if you follow the Bible the Bible tells you about his coarse hair do stores get so yeah, I do. I think we are all descendants of greatness. I think we don't use it. That's what I think. What do you think those drinks are Charlene and like right now, you know besides I hear you when you say this the a lot of power End Community strengths and and working with each other and family strength. What are whether you you know, I don't think we're using them to the phone you're using them to the

56:48 About your strengths that your community has a sore pain and keep it moving you're talking about people who are still alive or no generally generationally that their mothers their sisters are grandmothers got raped getting raped by a bunch of white men to them just moved on and we're punished and then we are people who have endured our family members falsely accused of crimes. We didn't commit and brutalize and castrated and in hung from trees and you eat all kinds of brutality and you need another very brutal things that have happened in this world, but we have their there very few.

57:48 People's African descent that haven't had anyone in their family brutalized and we are the only race as a whole that can say that with certainty that we are products and lived in spite of brutality. That kind of strength in itself is remarkable and it's something to be said for people who you walk into a store even nowadays a grocery store department store doesn't matter and somebody's looking at you sideways because they assume that you're a thief when you know, the speaker's probably your grandfather who took from your family and and got what they got from The Sweat Equity of of our ancestors so really who is the thief but yet we have to live knowing this is what people think of us. I mean so that kind of strength resiliency, but I think that it's somewhere Louisville

58:47 And we get tired and we didn't realize or we don't recognize and part of that is the educational system. Although most of it is that lack of Education we got from her own families to remind listen to We are and that is where we falter and also I think overall we do a lot with the blame game we get frustrated again like with the police.

59:10 Culturally, we all just say police or bad bad bad. You do police have done this Kalisa done that but that's exactly how we feed label for so long, but now a lot of us are going down that road and that alienates us. I'm going to stop here Jose give you a chance to respond. So it's everything sure Lena said and then I said, I'm going to drop a few questions into the chat just to close Jose you can choose and Charlie and I'll read them out loud so you can choose one too. But yeah.

59:52 When I got this thing about those things you said like

59:58 The Bad Apple analogy I get but also like, you know, we're human beings red apple with the like if we wore Apple was like we're all going to ride anyway right agree with you know, I don't

01:00:14 I feel that there are some negative influence throughout their

01:00:19 I don't really blame you. I see a lot of accountability especially like to mention police thing. I feel like you were trying to hold police accountable the same way. Please hold us accountable, right if I mess up my backlight without me accountable, right?

01:00:43 Rites that that person not being held accountable and you're going to buy different standard because I feel it's not okay. I don't I don't ever see it at some store like, you know,

01:00:54 We got play the cops everything but like I know is my myself personally. I've been I've been harmed by police officers several times it took me well into my daughter to realize that, had about police officers the way my body react this really react when I see a cop pulled behind in my body that for a long time. I didn't notice that wasn't really into my body was like my heart is racing right now. I'm sweating a reaction. I'm getting from this person that uniform and I'm a person who quite frankly believe

01:01:37 There's no such thing as a good cop not to say that person. Right if you're a cop and I'm a father right? I might be a good father. But I feel like the position itself does not allow for 444 righteous work. I think as soon as you put a gun on your hip as The Equalizer of Justice, then you're going into the wrong character and I'm not saying they don't have bad motives. I'm not saying that you know that they don't do good. Things are probably right there grandmother every year and send her a card on her birthday. They probably take good care of your wife. They probably help your neighbors out when he needed but when they put on that uniform, they're nothing but modern day slave catchers. And so, you know, and that's not to say

01:02:17 I disrespect you, right I don't care who you are. Like, you know, I know I know murders I show them respect respect the burger but I respect them as a human being so that's how I feel about. Seuss of respect respect respect that bad. That means nothing to me and it's not I don't blame for all my problems, but I'm off and I can let myself hope your palms that were certainly then we still need them doing their job and and in their Duty in a way that that that that really put barriers and and hardship on my life date date. Did they took my brother wait for two years before you know that they they they protected take me away.

01:03:01 You know that Dave David out the balance on my body and in the end of anybody people I love and care for it feel like to meet to me if we give it all the cops. I'll be I'll be perfectly happy with it. I'm not you know, anybody. But the right to come help me out with my work done. You know, that's why I feel like every office has led by the time training and learning how to enact balance in name of Justice. They learn how to shoot, you know how to fight. They learn how to use weapons to protect your other officers at every every every struggle with that. I said, I don't I don't see it as blaming them. I think it's wrong. It don't mean that I'm allowed to do and I can pull in and do whatever the hell I want to be a bad person, but I'm not going to not tell you.

01:04:01 You are nodding a lot. Was there anything you wanted to say just to respond to that?

01:04:07 Yes, first I want to ask Jose will how do you feel about people who are in the armed forces?

01:04:16 I don't I don't believe I don't believe I don't have a lot of faith in the military people who join the armed forces. I don't.

01:04:25 I'm at my friend's house right now. She has her back. She going to rain. I think she was just worried about her and she thinks you could put it by the ring. So I

01:04:35 I do but I don't believe in violence in that thing and the military is certainly built on Violet. So I said to go different the police because there's actually more accountability in the military that much more about you know, they're there is the Marines Francis have a Marine in a different country. They have more accountability for when they shoot the weapons in a cop does in our own country.

01:05:07 Good at that, you know, those are kind of different from a military. What's the average that people that I would never do but I guess my dad my dad. My dad was in the Army like

01:05:27 Okay. Well, I want you to respond but with just a few minutes and I'm going to cut you off if it goes over just because we've been dark thirty minutes over and then after that we're going to go to the question every police officer with a broad brush. I would despise anyone that payment be with a brush because some black person somewhere down the line did something horrendous. So now they see me and I'm not saying person because I've been saying color so therefore I'm just yet you do prone to violence and I you you do so, so that's it. Show me pic question. Actually I cuz I understand what you're saying about the broad-brush, but when Hosea was talking about

01:06:27 Respecting police officers as people and respecting them, you know when you know, they're living their lives but specifically cops as a job like being a police officer as a job and that being different from from that individual as a human. Do you think that like his Jose? Stop me if I have misunderstood you but that comparing sort of a broad Assumption of a race or like people of a certain color or in this case that you're speaking about like black people. You think the painting of police officers has a job is the same as painting this broad brushstrokes of black people as people or stereotype is a stereotype. So it doesn't make a difference if you're talkin about two people or two million people if you hear if you have an idea that everyone that

01:07:27 In a group regardless of the group is one way because of their Association and that's what we're talkin about. So it doesn't make a difference if it's a racial or if it's about somebody's job or the language they speak it is painting people with a broad brush. All men are jerks. Do you know or are you two are all women are silly or you know, whatever the case of broad brush is a broad brush and that is whenever people are not looking at the individual in the whole picture of an individual now Jose is benching looking at people as aside for what they do, but not as I'm a police officer and a good police officer and a good father and you know good person and I don't like violence and I'm an officer because I would

01:08:27 Protect people but I wonder at what I wonder if if slave-catchers was still a thing if you live if we if we let you know in a different time would you how would you feel about slave catchers?

01:08:39 Okay, so I don't see police the slave-catchers. I don't I don't see that. Unfortunately. If we lived in Utopia people regardless of race or culture or anything people do things they harm people so

01:08:58 I don't know what I would do. If someone put a bullet up to an 85 year old fit and just boom boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. I'm powerless. I would have to call on someone that is better at handling that situation and that should be prepared for it because I can't do it. Certainly. What would you love to live in a world where we don't have anybody doing anything bad to other people so you wouldn't have to have police and of course there are bad police because there are bad people. I work closely with the police and let me tell you why because it is very hard for me to hate and let me tell you about somebody who hated please you're talkin about me and I am talking about.

01:09:45 Hate hate. I remember I still can't go to Brentwood because of what happened to Jonny Jonny Gammage 20 years ago before you were born and and I am talk and then I've had a bad experience. I have a friend who did nothing wrong and was shot in the eye by the Pittsburgh Police not committed the crime and it was covered over. So I'm telling you I had hatred but I was really realistic enough to know that I needed to get over it because police were going away and they were necessary to a certain extent. So I've made it my mission to start volunteering with I approached an officer to I-5 seemed okay in my neighborhood and it turned out she was just boarded. Okay, she was fabulous and she also shared a lot of My Views about officers and had to clearly understand. What other

01:10:45 People Butte officers the way they do and

01:10:50 I need the death of Officer an active participant in the black lives matter movement, and she is not a person that color and so it talk about her frustration about some people shouldn't be off at first and I had never humanize that officer before cuz I just blinking hated the ball and always run into people who any color Health officers and I work for juvenile probation and I volunteer for Allegheny County sis for a long time. And you know, that's predominantly black young teenagers. And so yeah, I had a bias toward police no doubt about it. So but I did something about it. I'm going to end up there because we have to make sure sure and I know that we definitely went a little bit away from just exchanging personal stories and it became much more of like a analytical conversation which sometimes is totally fine.

01:11:50 Just naming. Now Jose. Can you choose one of the closing questions, please and ask Charlene?

01:11:59 Yeah.

01:12:03 Is there anything you learned about me today at surprise you first of all, let me just tell you something. I feel like I could hug you and kiss you and embrace you. I feel pride in here. I've been I do I feel proud of you and it was such an order to have this discussion and I feel good and it truly doesn't matter. If we don't share the same views about a lot of things. I just chill 100% Pride because you're so powerful and so smart and so good and what struck me is how you talk about you had mentioned that you don't care. If somebody's a murderer, you can respect them as a person. I feel that way and I have friend to abduct and working in the field that I do have to make people have done all kinds of things and if I

01:13:03 How to make a person I love makes a person so what they do and I feel I felt so much joy when you said that and I just feel I don't know a lot of times when people have differences you're feeling some kind of way or you know, you wish they fought with you and it just doesn't matter. I just feel so proud and I would just like to kiss your mother and hug your father and I just look forward to it like all these wonderful things that you're going to do. I just feel proud. I am just so proud of like yes, and this is a 30 year old 13 year old black man, and he can match wits with anybody. So I'm just tickled beyond belief. I love it. Love it. Love it. Thank you.

01:14:03 Oh, thank you. You make me make me blush and texted me to be two. Is there anything you learned about me today that surprised you and three, how can we come together after a divisive election this year?

01:14:27 Okay, so you're asking me to ask Jose if if you want to go. How do you think we can come together after this election?

01:14:41 I really I really feel.

01:14:45 Open ourselves up by Cassidy kind of dialogues getting out of our our our our bubbles having real conversations.

01:14:53 It's rare that I've ever met anybody who I couldn't talk to me about how much it is agreed. Everyone's fine. I don't have the patience for it. I had she got one for you, but I don't think I want jelly. I feel once he conversation start that we are all on the same page about what we want. It's just how do we get there? And I think the more we have conversations about how we get there and see where we differ and see where we overlap that we can come together as you know as Citizens as neighbors as know as cultural. Whatever whatever it may be that that we can that we can come together several refills.

01:15:37 Have any kind of dialogue and nnn being open and honest and and listening to people with with with?

01:15:44 With care and empathy and

01:15:48 And without the Judgment, you know and honesty and it just really I feel like I can really change change her out because I don't think that's the natural state of things. I feel social-media thing. They've got a really big attic lift in the fact that now we have physical distance to I think you have a big challenge ahead of us to close those dabs, but I have complete faith that as communities and if we can certainly get there and I really feel that this conversation to be heartening and really kind of stressing my idea that we we need to have a conversation and dialogue and together.

01:16:25 Great. We did it we doubled the time.