David Clayton and Britta Larson

00:03 Hello, my name is David. I was born in 1954. But I've been lying about my age for so long. I really don't know. What am I 61? Okay. Okay. That's what I was afraid of today's date is March 3rd 2016. I'm in Chicago and Barack Obama is still the president my relationship to who Britta I'm one of her favorite clients, very cold day is March 3rd 2016. We are here at Center on Halsted here in Chicago and I'm David social worker. Alright, David. Do you want to maybe start at the beginning tell me a little bit about where you were born and and yell about your childhood and your family sure. I was born in Chicago on the southside of Chicago.

01:03 Go in the community called Rosalind and I grew up in the first suburb south of Chicago Dalton. My older brother Pat still lives in Dalton. I was born I think I was the sixth or seventh child born to Dorothy Jo Circle Clayton my mother and my Father John Clayton Irish Catholic and very fertile family of seven of us. Yes back in the day, you know, and I have generally good memories of growing up in a, you know, big loud a convivial family. And do you know so I know I have the worst, you know, I wasn't perfect or anything I've ever come to terms with a lot of old ghosts and all

02:03 For my lengthy Journey on this planet. And also I I remember good things about the back then and where were you in the family where you the youngest host with second to the youngest? Yeah, and you know back then, you know practicing Irish birth control my I have I think five brothers older than I every two years apart, you know and a sister one sister with all of these boys and I'm still very close to her. And then I have a younger brother two years younger. Yes. And what was your relationship with your siblings like back then? I think it was good. I mean, no remember especially, you know, my brother had who is the second oldest? He's at least he's ten years younger than I and all I remember. Oh, well, I'll tell you the story that I always heard because I was born on October 30th, 1954 and

03:02 October 30th will be here in Chicago way back. Then the Night Before Halloween back then and may still I don't know kids went out trick-or-treating. You know, while my mother is in that year of 1954 was extremely pregnant with me on October 30th and all my older brothers and maybe my sister were all out trick or treating, you know, and they were in costumes and all and I think around 9 or 10 that evening. My mother was water broke and I was ready to come in and so are my brothers and sisters they were coming back from trick-or-treating and they saw the ambulance that had been called in front of our house, you know, but they didn't stop trick-or-treating didn't want to mess up that you know, so I remember hearing that story every year that I grew up but it is I presume it's true.

04:02 Tears are enzyme. What was your relationship with your parents? Like was a good one though? My parents were well, I told you enough pre-interview while my mother like she was a little bit of a party girl. I remember her telling me stories before she married. She went out with this was during the Depression here in Chicago dancing at places that are still here like the Aragon Ballroom on Lawrence back in the Roaring Twenties casino, and she and my father married in 1935 and my father didn't even have a grammar school education. He had to leave his home. I think at the age of 13 or 14 because they couldn't feed him during the height of the depression. I mean those were really hard times and he was

05:02 Hobo I he rode the rails and he kept a diary is a very young boy and that yeah, it's pretty remarkable that even without a grammar school education. He worked for many many years as a janitor at the University of Chicago and he was able to

05:23 Own home and send 7 kids to Catholic schools. You know that very that, you know, not just his but for millions of immigrant families, you know hard working and back then, you know times have changed, you know, but yeah. Yeah, but I have good memories of all of that.

05:45 And your relationship with your mother it sounded like you two were pretty close solutely. You know, well, he is Norman Bates said in Psycho a boy's best friend is his mother.

05:56 But it's true. We were around and I shared everything with her, you know, and like so many budding Gameboys, you know back in the day. I was you know, what the best little boy in the world. Do you no good at school and I was I was saying so, you know and so as I shared with you about when I came out to my mom, you know, when I was in college, do you know it would seem Perfectly Natural to me because that's the kind of relationship I had with her.

06:31 And how old were you when you knew that you were gay or something was different. Maybe you didn't have language around it and I didn't but I knew very early on and another early memory that I have his of a Christmas in sometime in the late 1950s and I would have been maybe 5 or 6 years old and my sister who is 4 years old the night. I remember that Christmas. She got a Easy-Bake Oven which was very very popular toys for little girls back then and she was a tomboy and I was a sissy and I got this Clown punching bag with sand in it so that you would punch the clown and it would fall over and then it would come back and open will my sister love the punching bag and I was thrilled with her easy bake oven. So we traded those gifts and was one of the best Christmases ever.

07:25 And didn't you have a story about watching Tarzan when you were a boy aged? I do I remember I credit Tarzan with making me gay. You know, I didn't have it language for it. But I knew that oh my God Johnny Weissmuller in a loincloth you absolutely and I think of myself in many respects, you know, I mean Sissy like so many other not all gay men, but I wasn't proud of it, you know, but also is a Survivor to navigate a world, you know, I you know sharing with you about my large Irish Catholic alcoholic dysfunctional family, you know, not you know, there were plenty of them on the southside of Chicago still out. I'm sure you know, I don't recall my father being abusive in any way toward his sissy son, you know sure his with

08:25 My older brothers and all you know, they would naturally gravitate to him and with him for things like car repair and all at which I had no it in any of that, you know, but he loved me like the rest of them, you know, and and that's and I'm very grateful to him and I'm glad I had the opportunity to share that with him at the end of his life and all yeah. Yeah simple people but good good people. Absolutely good Hearts. Yes. I'm sure I did. Yeah, I remember you know, what course, you know, but I I naturally found other sissies like me and especially in high school. We all gravitated to the theater Department, you know, so when this recent television show about Glee, you know, that was my experience of my high school experience, you know, so, you know not

09:25 Gay kids survive, you know Dan than even now, you know, but I somehow managed to tap in early to a sense of resilience and figuring out how to navigate in in the culture back then and all you know, you found your people found. It was the high school. No, thank goodness. Actually. It was a good high school Thornridge on the southside of Chicago in Dalton or South Holland somewhere out there, but I think I had a great experience in high school and all and then College after that I went to school in numb Texas my parents retired at that time to Tyler, Texas. So I just followed them. They are under my first stop was it was that guy I first started in Illinois State University and then moved to Texas with them to a community college called the

10:25 Tyler Community College home of the Apache Belles and I discovered they had a theater department and you know wherever I was that I naturally gravitated and that's where I met my friend on Charlie Charlie Miller. He was wonderful life. He's gone now he and his brother of both the died of HIV complications from HIV at but Charlie my good friend at Tyler Junior College. He one day he asked me if I wanted to go to a party and I said sure I'd love to go to a party and that Tyler is about 200 miles east of Dallas will back in those days gasoline was very cheap, you know, when the in Texas it was down the road apiece, you know, so we had to drive for a couple of hours to get the Dallas and all and it's simple tell me about this party that we're going to Charlie and he said they'll be famous people at this party. I said, oh, yeah.

11:25 Like who and he said oh, well Paul Lynde will probably be there and Nancy Walker and you know what these were old b-lister Hollywood and television personalities, but they were also gay and they were in Dallas performing generally at the end of their careers in dinner theaters and all and they would go to the local gay bar. You know, well that Charlie took me to the Bayou Landing was my first gay bar that I ever went to and I'll never forget walking into this is a bar and all I remember seeing is Cowboys dancing with each other and I thought I died and went to heaven if I was there I was it was wonderful, absolutely worth the drive.

12:19 First of many times did become my home away from home.

12:26 It was wonderful and that was back in the early while I came out in 1975 that was just six years after the Stonewall rebellion in New York City Dallas was a very different environment very conservative than the gay and lesbian community that existed at all was very much underground at that time. You know, I was arrested for being gay back then with so many gay men and lesbians to I suppose word, you know the dangerous time, you know, tell me more what happened, you know there weren't a lot of opportunities for to meet others. You know, when. So I went to where it was a theater where they were showing pornographic game movies, you know, well, I was in my early twenties with hormones raging and all you know, and that was the place, you know to meet and all Linda and they had two very attractive ice.

13:26 Says well, you know it and yes, then that's what happened to you know, and I was entrapped, you know, and I remember how mortified I was so, you know, and I already ate that whole experience you now and then sharing that with me having to get a lawyer, you know, who is I remember his name is Don something rather. I think he's he's retired. Now, of course in Dallas and he helped me through that process. And the anyways, it is the charges were dropped and expunged to know, you know, but, you know back in the day that I was lucky, you know, because I'll do their careers were ruined and all you know, but was extraordinarily lucky.

14:17 Yep.

14:21 That I survived that you know and others, you know that died by a gay bashing with back in the day, you know and which and it's a phenomenon that still occurs, you know, not as much as it used to but still you know, the one metal many battles, but the war that isn't over by any means, you know, yeah. Well the fact that the charges were dropped is important because it had a nap and drop your future career of my Predator gave brothers and sisters, you know who were victims of similar Vice raids and all you know that their names would be published in the newspapers and all and you know, they lose their jobs or commit suicide and all you know, and so yeah, that's why I consider myself remarkably lucky, you know, yeah. Yeah.

15:18 And a few years after that. I moved to New York City and to pursue my acting career and all and I remember participating in my first gay rights March. I was in a Broadway Theater. I was watching Betsy Palmer who just died last year. She was in the production of same time next year and as the audience I was a member of the audience. We were exiting the theater somewhere in the Theater District in Midtown Manhattan, and we could hear this loud Street demonstration this we approach to Broadway and heading into Times Square and it was a spontaneous demonstration of New York lesbian gay community protesting the failure of the New York City Council to pass an LGBT or the city ordinance. This was

16:18 1977 I think you know, well, I dunno join the the street that you know protest and all you know, and so we marched into Times Square and then sat down right at the crossroads of the universe. So, you know and cabbies were honking their horns and screaming and cursing and I thought oh, yeah. That was my very first of gay rights March and all the you know, they've been many many since then including last year here in Chicago's gay pride parade. Yeah. Yeah. I was your first Pride Parade, like don't remember where I was at probably in New York huge and festive, you know, when you got to remember it was some 1970s that was a lot of recreational drug use. So some memories are bit of a blur.

17:18 How much wonderful fashion nightmare but mostly wonderful.

17:27 They're moving to Texas and you were going to follow them to text us know that you were gay. You know, you ain't from Chicago to South one of the things that I know about me and then is now I think I've always and I think this is true for many many gay men and women who have survived in the generation from which I come is resilient side. I knew it and change changes good changes God. Do you know and it's difficult for a lot of people but it's not for me, you know, and I remember culturally how different the food was the language you know that here we drink pop their they drink soda and what do we have here bags? We put things in bags and they put them in sacks and it just different things, you know, but I like that about everywhere I go is that's how I'm wired. Do you know and that's how I was when I move down there, you know, and people were wonderful, you know.

18:27 Going to and I found a community of like-minded men and women. Do you know when I was down there and when I met my first boyfriend in college at North Texas State University as I shared with you earlier, I was so excited. I came home and told my mom, you know that I told her that we needed to discuss. You know, I have have a chat, you know, and she said, okay, let's go into the kitchen. That's where Irish, you know people have their family chat. So no and and she said let me bring a cigarette and I said you probably didn't want to hold back for this chat and so we went into the kitchen and and I told her that I had met my friend JP and and how wonderful and exciting it was so, you know, and she listened quietly and

19:22 And she shared with me into this was back in 1975, you know, and she had big concerns about safety and then and all of that but I knew that she loved me no matter what unconditionally that I felt confident that I could share that with her, you know, and so I did and and I remember how empathetic she was. She she started to tell me about a crush that she had on a high school gym teacher and I said Mom I'm coming out you don't have to you know, but I knew that she said that share that in terms of empathy and trying to understand and I appreciated that on her part. Did your mom meet you boyfriend? You know, she I think she while she was fine with me and all she did say it was she couldn't make the entire journey of Celebration, you know, she was from a different generation and all my sister.

20:22 Intercreditor, I finally managed to get her down or up here to the north side for a Gay Pride Celebration at midnight. I not told my sibling brothers and sister, you know, I've been to your baptisms. I've been to your weddings and graduations and all I just want you to come, you know to my cultural celebration, you know, and so they've shared gay pride parades with me and that's important to me that you came out to them much later. I don't know why I waited until after my mom died the end part of it was Geographic because I was in Texas and they were here in Chicago and elsewhere and I did it by letter and as you and I spoke earlier this week. I remember that I have a copy of the letter that I wrote and I found it is it's for pages and I'd like to read it.

21:16 2 yuan in share it and this is a letter that I wrote to my older brother Pat who still lives in Dalton in the south of Chicago and I think the date on this is June. No, no, it was around Christmas yet. It's November of 1981 how many years ago is that five years ago and I wrote to him a nice. I wrote Dear Pat. I wanted to tell you that it meant a lot to me to share some of the things we did when I was in Chicago when you told me some of your feelings about Mom, you told them to me with love and simple truth. I understand that and accepted that just the way you told me now. I feel I must share a similar kind of simple truth and I want to do it with a feeling of love that I share with you. You mean a great deal to me Pat the truth of the matter is I am gay. That should not come.

22:16 Send a great surprise to anyone. I think we've been dancing around this issue for years. It has always been true. It was just something we never talked about. I guess I mentioned it now because I want to put it put to rest once and for all the idea that there might be one last wedding in the family or something. It's not very likely and nobody should hold their breath. I wanted to be open and aboveboard with you because you are my brother and brothers should not have secrets with each other besides being gay is not something I can keep a secret. It's an essential part of who I am like breathing also being gay has a lot more to do with just who I sleep with. Although that's important to being gay has been that I can choose the kind of one kind of friend over another one who accepts me for who I am totally.

23:13 Being gay has determine the kind of politics. I pursue I didn't stuff all of those campaign envelopes in the last election for the fun of it. I believe Democrats care about all people being gay has meant to has been to me a vision of the world that is unique to me and all the other gay men and women that I feel a part of and share a common bond with being gay is fun and funny. There are lots of stories I can tell you being gay has been for me a journey back to my Essential self and away from hatred into the real world of who I am and today I wanted to share that Journey with you because you mean so much to me. I hope we have a chance to discuss some of these things. I've shared with you today, I think about what I've just told you as a kind of Christmas present a special one because I I share the truth about

24:13 Myself with my brothers with my brother who I admire so I really

24:23 I really do look up to you for who you are and what you have been to me and

24:31 To your own family. Thanks Pat for the chance to share these things with you. I wish you and especially Merry Christmas. I love you very much your brother David.

24:43 And how did that how is that letter received by your brother? I didn't hear from him, you know in advance of Christmas, so I called him in December right before Christmas and I said

25:03 This is Dave. Did you get my letter and he said yeah, I got it. And I said did you read it? He said yeah, I read it and I said, well, what did you think and she said well that's life and I said you're right and it's my life and I have to live it that way, you know, and I think it took them a little while but in not only then but in the intervening years since he has always been one of my greatest Champions and I've come out to you know, his kids and their kids and they love having a gay Uncle Dave and all you know, and I sent the same letter to all my brothers and my sister and I remember when my sister she called me and she said I love you. I loved you before you wrote this letter. I love you. Now that I've received this letter and the kids want to know when you're coming for Christmas, you know, so yeah, I'm really grateful for that to be able to share that and

26:03 I had all my fingers and toes crossed. I have 10 nieces and nephews. I just wanted one hand one in ten, you know to be lesbian and gay I thought it might be my niece Trish cuz she was so good at softball, but that wasn't the case. But so now I'm hoping for you know.

26:25 Well because I you know, why my

26:31 I want it's important to me to have someone in another generation, you know, because I think of being gay as a gift to and and a treasure that not only in my life, but you know that I want that connection with other members of my family. I had a gay uncle they actually two gay uncles one of them. I met one of them died before I was born and it gave me a sense of

27:02 Connection in a place, you know, and now we new generations, you know, I can be that for other members of my family. I don't have children of my own, you know, so I like the idea of a kind of a intergenerational daisy chain.

27:28 Out there doing this type of work. What what are you say it for them to do Partnerships or absolutely I'm when I'm not having the lunch here at the center on Halsted right nearby is the Lakeview Presbyterian church, and they also have a senior luncheon and all that. I've gone through and in the last year they had a an Academy of young people that was an alternative high school that upstairs and the kids would come down at least once a week to have dinner with the seniors and it was a wonderful intergenerational conversation to have that we all enjoyed but the kids did to you know, they were genuinely interested in knowing about our stories and our experiences as we were with them and I would love to see so much more of that. I know you're planning to

28:28 Have some high school kids coming in soon. I think yeah, cuz I think that's so important to Foster that conversation. You know Yeah Yeah Yeahs for so many different reasons speaking of mentorship. Can you tell me about you are gay Mentor love her very early on his name was Robert Robert Sievers, and he was kind of famous. He was a ballet dancer that I met when I was in Dallas and he he had been born and raised in Texas and you know, it was six foot plus sissy ballet dancer from Lampasas, Texas, you know, but he too was a Survivor and he was older than I was and he taught me about art and ballet and survival and he taught me how to cook lamb patties when I was a starving artist in New York and a vision of the world.

29:28 Do you know that was unique and end inclusive and

29:34 And I'm so grateful for that time that I shared with him. And he too. Well, you know, he died of complications from HIV in the early 90s. I think it was and

29:50 You know as I've lost so many friends as others have in my generation, you know, and so sometimes I think of myself as a gay dinosaur, you know, not only now as I'm older in my life but having survived so much, you know and and surviving so much more now. Do you know there's a major housing crisis for seniors in general but LGBT seniors in particular, you know, and so I get to navigate that landscape as well not easy, but I manage somehow, you know, yeah, and it's you know, I'm probably going to have to leave Chicago because of the lack of secure housing, you know, what situation made worth worse by a very antagonistic Governor currently, you know, and

30:48 God only knows what will happen in the next election. You know, I've been an expatriate American before and have plans to be so again because I'm not really optimistic about this country's political future, you know, so tell me what you're thinking the future might hold for you fabulousness no matter where cuz that's just a given. I don't know where I'll end up or where I'll go, you know, but I know that I'll carry my Essential self with me and all of the people all of the people that I've encountered in my life family and friends and you and everyone you know, that solutely true that possibly living in Europe.

31:34 Yes, I've been talking with some agencies that support LGBT Elder communities in the United Kingdom in Ireland in different EU State some I'm I'm a binational. I have an American passport as well as an Irish passport because of my Irish immigrant family and that and I've lived and worked in Europe before and all around the world and

32:07 So I'm grateful for that opportunity and and I'm to go back, you know, and to continue exploring because that's what's so much so much of my life has been about curiosity and then, you know the opportunity to travel and grateful for all of that.

32:28 Do you have a favorite trip or do you just have a love for travel and general tell me about where you were three years in Brazil. And that was Tropical Paradise Music everywhere in the food and the climate than the people certainly the men that I met. But even the women that I met I mean, I may be a Kinsey 10, but some of those Brazilian women. Oh my God, they just took my breath away, you know, and it was just wonderful the experiences that I've had everywhere. Yeah. I had a friend of mine. Um, he was actually my accountant here in Chicago and he had friends down there and I went back to school to get my Master's Degree here at Loyola University and it was wonderful to be back in the classroom stretching old academic muscles. I hadn't used in a long while and I

33:28 Earned a master's degree in urban studies, which meant that I could travel anywhere in the world, you know, and and so when George Bush became President in 2009 decided time to hit the road as many other Americans did too so I went to Brazil with my friend Sergio and stayed three years and I that's when I began teaching English as a second language because I needed to do something to earn income. I was good at it and I learn Portuguese while I was there a real father Portuguese with the bay and so it was at it was wonderful, but I got that opportunity. Yeah, I love Brazil of all the places I've been

34:16 Lots of good memories are absolutely everywhere. I go in at 8, you know for all of the traveling I've done and look forward to continue doing you know, I don't carry a lot of baggage with me both literally and figuratively and one thing that I don't carry with me is Regret, you know, I have I made mistakes. So sure everybody does do you know, but, you know can't let any of that.

34:46 Hold me down or back or anything just chugging forward. I'm a cancer survivor that knocked me for a loop, you know more than I expected, you know, but I'm back on my feet, you know, and I just keep going, you know, how long ago that was three years ago. Yeah. Yeah, that's why I came back here for cancer treatment. And as you know, it was a long difficult struggle of applying for Social Security disability benefits, waiting three years without any income or support whatsoever. You know, I was homeless for a time, you know, and really really challenging, you know, dealing with all of those health issues as well. You certainly taught me. I have already learned patience overseas. That's something everybody learns to know but cancer taught me.

35:46 To be grateful for everyone and everything, you know large and small and I am absolutely and you know, I'm not done yet by any means. I know that I'm grateful that I have the opportunity to write a new and fabulous chapter of my life and I'm not exactly sure where you know, but probably in Europe somewhere, you know technology allows me to keep in touch with you and family and friends family of origin and family of choice both very very important to me, you know.

36:23 And we talked a lot about mentorship and can I help in that next Generation up and coming young people identify as LGBT what?

36:34 Advice would you have for them just in general about make noise you note and then then don't question everything question everything, you know and break down barriers that still plenty to do, you know, and I know that you're standing on shoulders, you know of a fabulous people who have gone before, you know, and heal the planet has as much as we can. I mean, that's we're all in it together, you know, so I know I'm

37:08 Go get them raise hell.

37:15 So we got about a minute left in desert.

37:19 Or that you really want to talk about it or anything. I like to think of my journey says remarkably complete, you know and not yet. I mean, I've got more and more left to do but at least for now, you know, and and I am so grateful to you and to storycorps for the opportunity you to tell not just my story but those of others in my generation and all you know, thank you so much.