Jacqueline Terrassa and Mike Nourse

00:05 My name is Mike Nourse. I am 45 years old. Today's date is September 8th 2017. We are at Hyde Park art center and I'm with Jackie Teresa a friend and colleague.

00:19 Unjacketed raspa and I am soon to be 48 years old and it is September 8th to South 2017-2017 and I'm in Chicago, Illinois, and I'm with Mike Nourse who is a colleague and partner and friend.

00:40 So Jackie, we were just talking about this and I'm very curious describe your time when you were previously here and maybe even start by talking about the timeline the dates that might help to know as well at the Hyde Park Art Center.

00:58 So I started.

01:00 Working at the Hyde Park Art Center as a teaching artist when I was in graduate school at the University of Chicago and I was getting an MFA and one of my professors about Peter's suggested that I connect with the art center. I can't remember the context of that conversation now and and I don't remember at all my first conversation here at the Art Center. It was kind of coming here and figuring out what was going on at the art center, but I became a teaching artists and did that through much of graduate school, especially my second year. So that was 1993-94. That was an amazing experience for me because it was right when the art center had joined the Chicago Arts Partnerships in education as one of their first kind of neighborhood are Partnerships that was focus on pioneering at the time the audio parts integration with in the school system and the partnership at the Hyde Park Art Center was with Raceway.

02:00 Murray Language Academy in with three Arts organizations for Arts organizations, including the Hyde Park art center and Hyde Park Art Center was the anchor so I got a kind of education in art education through the Hyde Park Art Center both teaching and doing that and when I was teaching after school, I was teaching both after school are classes at a school in south on the far south side and that didn't have really are kind of education and so it turned to the art center to provide that after school and I was also teaching at akiba-schechter Jewish Day School because they also didn't have a formal art teacher and so I was kind of their de facto our teacher I would go during the day and I would do classes for

02:56 1st through 3rd graders and then not for elementary and once a week or twice a week. I can't remember how frequent and then that was landscape. Was this your first foray into that or had you had some experience. I had taught One Summer between college and I think one summer between college and first and second year of college at an art center in Puerto Rico where I grew up and that was my first experience teaching and that was when I realized that I loved this thing of connecting something I was passionate about which was art with people and trying to kind of figure out the language and the ways in which in this case young children would be able to cut of grapple with and use what I was learning really in school as well and what I was what I cared about and so so it was sort of this beautiful aha moment. So that was my first experience

03:56 In art education per se and the art center of the time was located. The art center was in the former Del Prado building and it was

04:10 Kind of an amazing and difficult location because it was an old Ballroom space that had been sort of converted into an art center the studios or adjacent to the offices. So everything was filled with Clay everything was covered in clay and this was you know, the early 90s. So the computers are pretty. Matrix old fashioned computers and printing labels for mailings was like 2 hours and you know, every time that clay had to be delivered for every semester of classes. They had to be that was sort of like workout day because Hardy would be like down below in the alley lifting clay package and boxes up to me. He would bring them in from like through the window into a studio. So that was there were two staff members officially because I became a program coordinator right off.

05:10 Graduate school, so I I got hired at the program coordinator. And that was my first full-time job in a non-profit Arts organization. And so at this point I was still teaching and art for preschoolers class and I was doing

05:29 You know summer programs in the Parks throughout Chicago, so I was supposed to getting an introduction to the geography of Chicago by going different Saturday's to different Parks across the city and doing Hands-On workshops, but it was quite a time. Yeah, they were just two of us plus erratic interns at the time erratic and interns but with the emotions of that space felt like for you just because the art center is Academy a collection of emotions that Circle both internal and external for everybody and that combination in collaboration answer of contact between people and their emotions makes makes the flavor of what happened. So interesting here and I want to hear about that from you but that is for you at the time. It was a really wild mix of emotions. It was exhilarating because I was learning so much on so many levels.

06:29 I was learning about art education. I was learning about teaching I was learning about people. I was learning about running a nonprofit twice during the time that I was in under three years that I was three and a half years that I was in that role there were turnovers of directors. And so I was left to run the place for two to four months at a time working with the board all that. I wrote my first Grand with a fever because it was due and it was it was intense. So there was the emotion was also about a lot of extortion and

07:11 And doing everything that had to be done and at the same time the emotion was about connecting with a community because there were all kinds of people coming in and because they have to walk right through the offices to go into the studios and you know people would just kind of drop by and I would talk with artists and I would talk with students without you know adult students young students teaching artist visitors to stop by. It was amazing. I mean I met Michelle Obama at the Hyde Park Art Center because she was at the time trying to get people to

07:50 Do I kind of non-alcoholic New Year's Eve and she wanted the art center somehow involved in it. And you know, there was a sort of sense of potential because there was an incredible history behind the art center. So so you kind of felt like you were part of history, but at the time the place was struggling so it was sort of like, how do we turn this around? How do we stop treading water and and take this to a different level? So a lot of emotion, you know of kind of self challenge actual challenge of the external and then Community. Yeah. What is it like for you now?

08:34 It's not unlike that in a lot of ways. I think it's probably just scaled up. I mean we have for example like Hardy still one of the great that you know already because he's been here as long as he has and when I started you no understanding Hardy and his history in the Ceramics history is for the Arts and was a big thing for me and my role so moving in the plays one of the first things already asked me how funny exactly yeah and then teens were pretty good about helping and whatever I've just come to know Hardy and I've had a couple talks with him about the year's over the years things spaces and different people that have been here.

09:23 And I would say that even just the office being open the way you described it the office now that we have even though it is behind walls. It is pretty transparent windows and people walking in all the time the ideas. I think that that openness still exists here. So, you know warts-and-all you kind of have the pros and cons of people dropping in randomly all the time, which is to me this sort of multi-level that exists within nonprofits like ours Community organizations that you have both programmed interactions and relationships people that are here that their plan to be here because they're exhibiting there and shows there in programs the resident artist, but then you have these random people from and I shouldn't say random but I should say unplanned visitors that are here every day that many of us know or if we don't know it's just a matter of time until we do know that because the environment is kind of you know, my background is studying intermedia arts in the Collision of art forms.

10:23 Waterways this is an intermediate community in the sense that it's just people that Clyde I am all the time and in the coffee shop is a great place for that happens every day when it when we had a gap of a few months without a coffee shop the community felt this huge drop back to me. It felt emotionally like we're missing this component in the studio is you'll often walk up and down in just going to run into people you you both know and I have talked to and I've seen them grow and seen their work grow and then meet somebody new that you've never met before and they're both sort of equally challenging terms like how they push on you and your psyche and what you understand to be the value of this type of place the value of making art or the value just talkin interacting around art. So a lot of what you talked about I think still exist here. I think the

11:17 I think the idea to of uncertainty in the idea of not knowing where this is going, even though there are a lot of people now behind things like strategic plans and goals that we have and we reach them here and there they're still at element of like you don't know you never know. You know, when I first started here. I was actually just talking to someone about this the other day. But when I first started here, I'd come from previous work at the Art Institute at DePaul University where I taught at Iran programs for tomorrow in Iran programs for the architecture foundation. And when I first started here, I remember my first week, you know kind of like

12:05 You know you interview you kick the tires. You see what's and then you start in your like? Oh, wait a second. No one showed me under the hood. All right, you know and so you start to see some stuff you like how I didn't realize and all of a sudden for me was like, okay, there's a sense of urgency to really kind of like a dress and move things in you you come in with like guns blazing and wanting to do stuff and then the staff your kind of like

12:27 They they have this sort of like relaxed Vibe where there's a lot of laughing for example add meeting. So there's a lot of smiling of those there's food at meanings and to me when I first started I was like why how is everyone relax? We cannot be relaxed we have to be freaking out right now because that was my history of just you have to constantly be people to be pushing and pushing. What I found out over time is that the person is great about having a great balance that the the important part of the work that we all do is is driven Everyday by the human part of who we are and you know, I think it starts with the board and Kayden and how that trickles down to the rest of the staff here, but that culture is kind of a really unique environment where I where I think people are both they support each other, but they also

13:20 Can support in NM challenge each other emotionally to which is it's different for me. It's been a different experience but like kind of completely unique no nowhere else if I have come to experience this so that is so beautiful what felt so urgent to you when you had that sort of like come on people we have work to do. Well, it was just that I couldn't see how the work that needed to be done was going to get done because I didn't know people yet. I didn't know the complexities of the working environment and and and how people function here. So to me the idea of you know at a meeting where we were trying to address to talk about something like school programs, for example,

14:02 Why is why is there no urgency here? We have to get we have to make sure we have funding we have to make sure the assessment translates. We have to make sure that the impacts there that are schools are happy. Their kids are actually growing that we're meeting our mission are going towards our Mission Inn to me. I guess I I maybe it was just the first five or ten years that I was doing this but there's always a little bit of like, you know, the rug can be pulled out funding can drop a way people can get laid off students can go away families can decide to not be here. What is here can be gone and I think everybody works not just in community, but in Social Services anyting Community Based non-profit face, you have that element of uncertainty and it's a different flavor from the for-profit sector where that exists to and for different reasons. But in this case it's tied to people in a different way. And so when you think about loss and what that could mean for individuals and groups and communities,

15:03 It's just a different a different experience. So so to me that coming in, you know, that's always a part of what I carry.

15:13 And it probably took me about a few months or something. But when I kind of found that spot when I realize you know, like that's actually pretty important that staff let their guard down once in awhile pretty important that they share things that don't have anything to do with work that there's a value there that is actually really hard to generate. It's really hard to Foster community in the in a culture where that's acceptable. He can't teach that you can if you can call today that but you can't teach that part of my work then I would say the thread that carries through is like trying to find out by Looking Back actually in Hardy was one of the first people but I spent the first six months interviewing people.

16:00 And just to talk to them about their history here at the Art Center whether or not they were active with staff members at board members teaching artist students at some community members some past people that hadn't been here for a while cuz I really wanted to see what made this place take him where it came from and I continue to really be interested in that that helped shape and education plan that I put together for three years that that kind of help guide what we're doing and maybe that alleviated some of my concerns around like the culture that I was working with in was knowing that I had a plan and support of an education committee another staff to to carry that out in her education staff. So so that kind of like set me on the way to kind of I think having that balance where I knew I was focused on building on the program strengths here and and and had goals in mind but I also knew that part of the culture here would mean doing some stuff that wasn't planned learning about some people that I didn't know but that that have come to be not just colleagues good friends and

17:00 Important people in my life. So yeah, it's it's a great place where those things can exist and that's not common but it's a testament to him to the history that you were part of. Yeah and and much before 2 as well cuz I mean that's

17:21 I think

17:23 These places there's a kind of DNA to these places, you know the sort of like the founding ethos that may be very far away. But that's somehow still kind of percolates, you know and across I find that at the Art Institute of of that value of going into recent history for the route history and then kind of origin stories because it's sort of what it what are what are the origin stories that still matter to these institutions and that we tell ourselves over and over because somehow they still have some kind of value for what we're doing now and how that informs what we do in the future to me as I really it's almost like raw material to work with so did you find or do you find at the Art Institute? Did you find when you were in New York for example that this this experience to sort of lead you to those?

18:23 No, I mean I think this or yes experience was foundational. I

18:33 On very practical levels, you know that grant that had to write that was my first Grand working with the board. I have never worked with a board feeling like I had to like step up to being a leader even though I was really quite ready for it. Didn't feel that getting to know the context of the event that the art center wasn't just a place. It was a larger community and it was a larger Community by rooted in a place a location call Chicago and that it was part of a larger history of the Arts in the city that transcended that particular place. And so do those ideas of kind of how

19:16 What we do us Educators, it's not a practice that you can transplant from one place to another and do the same here there weather is you know, you go from the hypercar center to a different Art Center or from the Hyde Park Art Center to then a museum or from this Museum to that museum that each of those places those institutions those communities those histories conditions of practice and determines or doesn't determine informs what is possible and what also can happen and what maybe needs to happen. So I think about that all the time but that lesson I started learning here and and I think a lot about the difference between art centers and museums. I think you and I have talked about this before. I'm up pretty

20:12 Staunch believer that their differences between types of organizations and different kinds of value proposition. Is that each kind of organization offers and so I'm I'm very aware when I'm working say at the Art Institute now where we have amazing Studios and all that. We are not an art center. We might want to become more Community Focus and we may want to have more of that human element that you're talking about, but we're not going to pretend to be something we're not and the same day Art Center in Hyde Park Art Center would make a mistake if it tried to be too much like a museum because then it would lose that human organic kind of drop in and informal quality that is that unpredictability that maybe as a challenge but it's also part of its beauty. So I feel that very consciously all the time the other distinction in their difference between the two institutions is particularly relevant, I think today because

21:09 All cultural institutions, especially Community 1/2 minutes full answer kind of under a microscope right now as as the Arts are under attack in the sense V. I would say part of you know an agenda that's out there right now. So, you know what, I think of the art center I at I also think of it as kind of in itself as a piece of art is really interesting history that's evolved over time and you can almost feel like the hands of the community making this thing over time that shifts and morphs the Art Institute to me remains a venue for all that is hard but not necessarily piece of art and its in the same way. Maybe that's a little bit of my interpretation of what you're talking about. But also when we even talked by email last week with Heidi for example about proposing this conversation around their programs, I remember talking to Caden her first thing was like, well we are in a museum, you know, and I was like, yeah, I know that's kind of an inch.

22:09 Part of this is how we can add to that conversation because we aren't you're right. We still get people at collister like me. I've got a piece of art. Can you take it and we don't collect exactly. So there is kind of a distinction. Nothing between the two is really interesting and I think having worked in a place like the hypercar center and particularly at the time that I work at. What's the resources were so so so so strapped that

22:39 Uneven, you know now we've seen all that happens here with comparatively a very small budget and very, you know, relatively small staff. It's a really good constant reminder that resources aren't everything. You know that small places. Like I I'm in love with small places that do that appear to be so much larger than they are because of the impact they has and the kind of energy that they exclude and I think the high for Car Center is one of those places. So it's a good reminder when you're in a larger institution that we mean when we don't have endless resources at all at the Art Institute is actually Eleanor place and I imagine it would be but we're certainly resources are more. I have more stuff on you, you know, for instance like what are we doing with that? You know, what are we doing? Are we putting those resources to work? And and what's the ultimate aim of all of that wealth of different kinds not only monetarily but, you know great collection.

23:39 Amazing spaces incredible stuff like what it what are we doing with it? And that feels like a I think we all need organization. Ask ourselves those questions. I'm curious.

23:51 This is a question that do, you know the artist. Rhine, he's at sound artists from I think is bias in Seattle or West Coast. I think Seattle. I'm not sure he was asked this out of creative Time conference and I love the question which is why do you do what you do reaction is because I can't not do it. I didn't choose this career path it chose me sort of thing. But I do it I think because I moved here a long time ago from Canada and when I moved here it was to go to school because I wanted to kind of immediate what I had read about as this great country on paper terms of its constitution in terms of its the spirit of what it is in the history of the Country Inn in the people that I've met were great, but in the middle of War

24:51 The Americans I'm at work great. But in the middle was this news collection of stories that I grew up in Canada dominating my media that were like these horrible stories then instead of watching some Canadian news. Sometimes I was like, why am I watching about this horrible story of of death in and you know politics in America instead of my own country's history my own countries news and why is America on paper so bad and not in practice since I moved here really wanting to kind of like mediate that and understand what the difference is was and we're a night. So I did study a lot of media studies did start asking questions when I came here to started to try to analyzed as much as I could both from people and and practice and I think that just kind of curiosity continued for me and still continues today that learning to me eventually became a place where I feel like asking questions both benefited other people and myself and whether it's teaching or

25:51 Overseeing programs your kind of like in an incubator of questions, right? So you can ask questions that you can answer with somebody else once in awhile, but you can have 30 people answer that question with you. And if you do that with 200 programs a year, you can exponentially ask and answer just so many different questions and and we never know the answers but we get to ask those questions, right? And so every day I feel like the possibilities are kind of endless in front of me because I never know what kind of questions are going to be asked and what kind of answers were going to see what kind of people are going to be giving me whatever I get to collect and how I'm going to grow from that that's a curious environment that I live inside of that. It's just so rich and it's so valuable and I think in today's day and age where people want answers they would love to think that they can make a difference in my own small way in my own small world whether it's my own practice my own

26:51 Work here. I'm work with a contemporary art scene outside of the art center. I feel like I get to do that every day. So I never wake up feeling like know what am I doing? I never feel up wake up feeling like oh my God, I you know, why am I doing this job? Why am I there I I just don't feel that way. I am one of those lucky people in the world in that I get to wake up in just do and it doesn't feel like a job. Most of the time many times it can sure but most of the time and feels like add this is just a chapter in my life and it's a pretty significant one now in my seventh year here, so it's been a while but

27:34 I don't I don't see slowing down. I mean, I don't see what we've started here ending for me anytime soon. I don't I don't see any major shift. I just seen increased work that I've been just benefiting from so, you know, I put in the stamen cuz I was totally probably totally screwed that up. But you know, it says like write a statement whenever a night the only thing I could put it was that I'm just like a curious professional in terms of my work. I'm a curious person and professional who likes the idea of walking other people's shoes and I get to do that all the time.

28:12 So that's probably why I do it and testic.

28:25 Reminder

28:27 Sure. I mean, I'll tell one that I always said that I told a lot. So if you don't mind and you know this being recorded so that's actually pretty good. But when I started your we had did you have when you were here when I started you're there we had one team program youth report which still continues today and it's a community community projects program for teens and it came out of Jim dignan pedagogical Factory which was here in 2006 and some ideas and programs for the art center. In other words came out of that and I was coming from having worked 5S years running teen programs of different kinds middle and high school is so I was really interested that and three other areas, but that was one of the prominent one so

29:19 So, you know we started saying what we got to do with it not just have community in group projects. Let's have some independent project. So we started our chop. Let's make sure we have some instructional programs that allow teens who want to get to those programs allow them to learn some tools and skills that will build them up to this program. So we started offering photo and some writing programs in art and Technology programs. And right now we have about five or six but at the time we really only had a collection of about five or ten teams that would come here on Thursdays and they would literally described that Thursday experience as being like I go to the other side of the building I hang out there the rest of the week and on Thursdays I go over there and that's really how they were describing. I thought there was so much room to going to build on that because a they wanted to be here and that we're here. So there's a lot to do so we started by a kind of opening up some ownership in Agency for the teens and saying what you want to do.

30:14 You know, like what is it about the space that we can leverage for whatever your needs are whether it's socially want to hang out with your friends. That's fine. Whether it's messages you want the community here connections to other people outside of the art center. So we challenge them to come up with an event at the time. This was 6 years ago. And I said, I just want you to generate an event. I'm not going to tell you what that is, cuz that's that would be kind of like a top-down. I want this to be more of an inside out. So they all going to brainstorm for a while and then they turn around and said I wanted we want to do a lock-in and I said great. And then I went over to the other side of the room and I Google blocking.

30:55 And I was like cuz I didn't know what lock-ins were. I was we don't I don't remember them from Canada. We never maybe they happened. I don't know.

31:04 It's a it's a we were locked into being blocked into the idea of a lock in being here on a Friday night from 7 at night till 7 the next morning with about sixty so teens at the end of the school year that first year I was here and it was incredible. I was nervous as heck going into it. I had volunteers help but the the sort of

31:28 The sort of joy and appreciation from the teams that we worked with inside of his locking event to see them going to any part of the building and feeling like it was theirs warts-and-all there was a couple things but nothing major but to see them kind of like their eyes just like blow up to see them kind of their emotions kind of just Elevate in their preciation for the support that we would give them just by giving them the keys to the building and hanging out with them.

31:59 And since then we've had two lumps tell us, you know, we've had to walk enough for 6 years every year and since then we've had a lungs tell us that they've gone to college and they feel like anything is possible and I just went along Gerald Brown we talked about a lot cuz she's incredible bit when she first said that Smith why why you say that with crazy ideas? And you said yes and the rest of our worlds outside of the art center. We typically get told know if we're told anything and all of a sudden we come here we have people saying so now guess what when I go into the real world and I'm 25 Grand sort of my scholarship for my tuition for school because my scholarship being a partial one. I feel like I can go out and get that and so I raised a you know, I do a raffle and I get businesses to give me stuff and I sell tickets and I get support from other friends and I make that money up for my tuition. Where's before the art center. I might not have felt that ain't that that was possible. I would have probably given up.

32:59 And to me that was like when I think of that story when I see Gerald now, it's one of the most transformative experiences not just here but in my life.

33:12 That's fantastic things like that can happen when you see you see the process and then meat grinder stuck every day. But then once in a while, you could eat the hamburger, whatever the hell you get to like, you know, see the results are filled in for a second. And in those are kind of like those fleeting moments once in a while. We're just things come together coalesce into this one Crystal that you're just like pow. Wow. That's what is this makes and you know, it's my dad plays golf. So he always stays in the one good shot. Every every time you go in that gets you going to 70 other 80 90 other shot stock, but you can go back and it's kind of like that once in awhile. You get one good shot that just drives you for years.

33:55 And sometimes it's hard to know when that's I mean you never know when that's going to happen or how it's going to come. I recently had a former staff from the Metropolitan Museum. We were in touch with each other cuz she's about to go into a new job and we were

34:16 Reflecting on our time together at the Met

34:21 And the context in which we work together was that she was part of a division that I had to kind of establish when I first got there and that got disbanded and restructured soon after I left because it apartment got restructured just before and then just after I left so it was sort of this capsule of time that this community of 14 people that were part of the department where a division that was called gallery and Studio programs. And so Marianne wrote to me and said how do Tuesday she's you know, she really even though they're structured in different ways and the department they still see each other as a certain kind of special they have the special bond with each other and she said we're a community of people who care about each other who are serious about our work.

35:15 And I love that combination of like both serious about our work and caring for each other and that somehow these were values that came from that sort of experience, you know being a unit and that I had kind of help Foster and that was that was so powerful for me to hear kind of what

35:38 What that meant for so it says, you know, like I have not expected that at all to come in that day in an email and it just made my day.

35:49 Yeah, and so we have 5 minutes left. So we're going to wind down right but I'm kind of curious now at the Art Institute. How does this fit into your the trajectory of your professional life now? I mean, do you feel like this? Is it like this is the biggest job you could get or no I think is wrong word.

36:15 It's an amazing opportunity. It feels

36:21 Bike

36:23 I'm in a season of my life that I don't know how long it's going to be and I wanted to make the most of this opportunity for however long it last and the last thing is, you know, whatever external and internal factors. Do you know play into it? So so it feels not like a like a cool Aiko. Finally. I reached the summit. It's I've never climbed the mountain but it's not in a mountain of asserting scale. I have never climbed a mountain overthrows kill small mountains. Yes, but professionally I don't people used to say that to me when I got to the medicine go now that you work at the Met like where you going to go like this is it right? And if I do know they're these different kinds of circumstances are four different kinds of opportunities, and that's how I feel that this is a particular circumstance with a set of great.

37:19 Resources acids possibilities responsibilities and I do feel a great sense of desire to put it to good use. You know, I'm to make it count on I do this work because I ultimately wanted to have an impact in a larger context a larger system because you know the context of the organization itself, but beyond that the context of a community outside of the organization in the case of the Art Institute, I was fascinated with coming back to Chicago.

37:56 To a community that I already knew even if it had changed in the five years that I have been away to do education work at this major museum at this time when things feel so urgent because of the social and political context in which we're working and that's all to me like something I have to do.

38:19 Do you think that's what you're carrying? I'm trying I'm trying to just wrap this up in terms of its a thread that maybe started or was a part of your work here at the Art Center that remains with you now in your current role, you know, can you think of one or two things that where they are then and are with you now the running thread throughout everything that I've done and anything that I think I will do moving forward for however many years that is is a real passion.

38:52 I love the possibilities of the creative mind and ultimately I work in art education because I love art and I love that. I love hard because

39:05 I think that creative minds are incredibly important in our society and I want to be able to Foster that power of kind of imagination possibility inquiry exploration connection expression.

39:22 That a x is kind of ineffable at times. It doesn't really have any practical off and it has no practical end other than making us feel human and helping us connect with our world and understand their world in her place in the world in a better way. So so that is why I love working with artists. I love working with artists from the youngest and the least experienced to the most experienced in the most connected in the most, you know, the whole range. So what I tell people here and I'm really happy to hear you say that because I feel like in some ways I'm continuing a tradition that you were a part of starting here, which is in our programs or even incentive program, which I delete which is with these 25 artists. Each year was never really a lot of it is about what are you going to make? What is the work that you're developing? What is it? Say blah blah blah at some point. I kind of I shouldn't say blah blah blah, but we've talked about that but at some point we switch

40:22 And I mean this in a very sincere in support of way that ultimately whatever they make or construct. I don't really care about like yes, it can look good. Yes, it can it can resonate with some people at one ways other people others, but I'm actually interested is in the people as the people as a piece of art, right? So to me when I look at the people in the room in the artist, like those are the pieces of Art and they kind of like in some ways might get caught up in what they're going to construct and to me it's kind of incidental like you can make something to look beautiful. You can make something with crappy doesn't matter. I'm actually more interested in how you make yourself right and how that develops. I think that I would say that that's continuing work. Then you had a heavy hand in starting. So, thank you. Thank you and great Mike. Thank you.