Finley Campbell and Elizabeth Thomas

00:04 My name is Elizabeth Thomas. I am 52 years old. Today is January 7th 2016. We're in Chicago, Illinois and my relationship to Findlay is friend and mentor.

00:21 And my name is friendly Cassie Campbell. Dr. Felici Campbell age. 81 today's date is January 7th 2016 location here at storycorps here in Chicago, Illinois and my relationship with my partner combination of Grandpa mentor and friend.

00:42 What is your first memory of me?

00:47 I am in this classroom and the University of Illinois Chicago campus as a range of people in their different complexions different genders and as school on. Week by week. I began to notice people who either do not come to class on time or to go to show up at all. But who have a certain amount of what I would call intelligence reveal sometimes in questions that are asked and sometimes in the way they groan and moan about my assignments. And so I kind of remember you as one of those people who would moan and groan about the assignments with always wanted more details on how to do it. And of course from time to time when you didn't come to class I have to bring that to your attention. So that was the first sort of recognition back-end how to fix a UICC is 78. I guess I was at about seventy nine for your class came through

01:41 Okay so friendly, so when and where were you born? I was born in 1934 September in a little will actually a big little town called Anderson, South Carolina. I was born in what is called the mid-range. Of segregation and I live in an area that have what was called Soft segregation. And so it was so very nice experience going up there and have a hit any of the negative experiences that most people had but the essence of it was it was a southern town and we'll sort of rural enough to leave adventuresome for running around looking for frogs and snakes playing in Creeks, but big enough to have one of the best movie houses in town.

02:27 Briefly explain what is soft segregation recent writers which seemed like all this to happen. If the black folks of there being alleged murder killed in a paramilitary call Saul segregation. There were power structure than what was it that happened. This is a textile City and therefore having a lot of

02:51 Violet approach the racism was not permitted. And so you could turn on you. If you knew that there were certain things you couldn't do you had to go to the upper part of the theater. You can go to the circus and even take part in a rope separating you from the black and white side or the other hand. You could a carnival come to town uses away, but you could write anything but at no point do I remember being so insulted or attacked that was not a part of the Anderson framework was very moderately runtown collaboration between the black and white communities around issues of making sure it remain that way and that was a black business area was right downtown and that's in Anderson, South Carolina. So there was a sort of a symbiotic relationship, but then I'd have the harsh and its associated with the movie called segregation. That's why all that soft resident hard segregation.

03:46 So what were your parents like? Well, my father was a minister who had worked himself up literally do by his bootstraps. He got out of first grade who is 18 years old used to be a field hand and kind of farm type situation sharecropper and I eventually threw a very complex the history. I became ordained minister as a part of the American Home Mission Society program to train a black baptist ministers to be more educated. So he was from the country. My mother was a husband or upper class. If you sometimes let us know where her family owned Farms on the farm and then multiple Acres even have field has working for them.

04:35 But unfortunately, they lost that and so she brought to the attention how to be what we would call sadiddy out of the Shelby say how do I put the forks on the table how to eat how not to be boisterous. My father's life. I felt a lot of jokes do without a lot of jokes to be told so they would like a marriage of these two individuals and most of all she was younger than he was she was 25. He was 45 when they got married. So I also I was either a surprise or a first-born depends on how you look at it. So they are both but they're both pillars of the community and I've learned a lot from both sides of them. So what was your relationship with your parents? Well with my mother since I was the firstborn was sort of her, I guess you just called her little brown toy because of her own internal racism Brown. I was to figure out who said the wrong thing to the wrong baby. We got bad.

05:35 That we had a rather musically good relationship. She had six children someone one after the other and so naturally get this place from the birth order, but as I got into adolescents that we became closer because I'm down to that was the oldest. I was helping to take care of the children My Brothers Melee she would share with me how to raise the kid. She would tell me fascinating stories about her upbringing as a child of a landowner about how I fight my I guess you would call that my Indian ancestors used to live with them who was the country band over there quite master and how the bike Master gave them land. So it was like it was fun by father had two crops as he called them. Okay. So what is your best memory of childhood? And your worst memory? What's good?

06:35 Here's what it really six out is first time. I'm conscious of Christmas.

06:41 The walk into the room as all these toys and if spraying out from write that letter this white Santa Claus on giving all of these trains and things in the Christmas tree, but that's like an amazing sight. Like I said, we were middle class off Family. We're not a call is negroland. So we were negro Landon's and there was a beautiful incredible bright scene. It was very very powerful the worst thing. I remember ironically was going to a ghost movie and it scared me to death. I made my heart was in my throat. I can hardly breathe if a month after I can go upstairs by myself cuz it was so terrible. So how old were you when this happened I was about eight years old and it was all in South Carolina the most politically scary 1943. We could we have moved to Detroit and I know that there was all this violence going on, but fortunately for us and did take place in our neighborhood, but it was scary to think that people just drag you out of a bus and beat you.

07:41 Difficult to the club you're scanning. Wow for 10 year old kid man. I was like, woah, what is that effect? Do you think it made me aware of how protected my life was when I was living in. Ironically it South Carolina now, I'm in Detroit Michigan Right the North and you got this kind of violence that had never heard of before so it was sort of a missile quit frightful about the nature of race, but I know what the word race was and is ideology but I did if you were a person of a particular color this case black or Negroes we will call then you could be hurt just for being that it's a game. It's sort of a I'm not a bit paranoid, but just enough to talk to make you look nervous and being in a fight environments to when did you leave South Carolina? 1942. We were part of the migration from the south is called the Second Great Migration my father got an offer to work at a church in Detroit, and I didn't want

08:40 Levi Joy of living in South I like Anderson. I like the people there are only want to go to want to go but they wouldn't listen to me. And so I eventually ended up in Detroit for you to Florence on your life. Well, I guess you would have to do it in pieces and pieces for my father. I got the sense of what it was like the power of preaching of the power of the narrative service. He would tell these great sermon. I mean you have you sitting there with your eyes staring as he talked about the resurrection like a Battleground between Jesus and the devil amazing from that. So that was very important part of my upbringing from my mother social Consciousness. She was very social conscious. She was a member of a group call c o r e a committee of racial equality and took part in the desegregation of Downtown Detroit and from her. I got a real sense of social Consciousness legitimacy and in the black community.

09:43 She was very concerned about where these young girls retreat at that usually they be read out of the church. If they found out they were having a baby without the father. And so she fought against that and you can shut up set up a home for with young girls who had those. I can you put up put up by their own mothers and father and parents are being bad girls and that one of them live in a home for a while. That's what was that.

10:09 Well, it was like 15 16 17 year old with her stomach.

10:16 Protruding and you've got a friend with what's in your stomach gurgle all that kind of stuff and she lied and said she's following us swallowing a pumpkin seed later. I found out it was her first child being born vicious. You came up very stalwart member of the church, but it was like you were living next to a situation. You knew it had something to do with sand and that kind of stuff. But so you list your mom and your dad is being too significant people in your life. Is there anyone else that you want to ask the next round is now blow older diesel series of teachers. That's mr. Owens at the Northern High School who helped me journalism journalism teacher at to his help. I became the head actor of the high school newspaper. That was Miss Ward with my French teacher at from her I learned how to speak but he's read French. Well and later was able to use that when I got to France as a student and that was the amazing.

11:15 Ethel werfel who was our humanities teacher when I went to college and stuff, but I went to college at Morehouse College. She introduced us to the power of art as a moral way of knowing the world, but she called The Fifth Gospel through her also, we went to travel through the South we went down to a little farm call quantity of farm in Americus, Georgia Mega 3 black students are what white lady driving through South Georgia, and then somehow lured protecting us in what ways is nothing really happened. But you had that kind of boldness about her and most of all those dr. Jarrett Dr, Ste. Jarrett Vernon Jared's connection about regenerates a brother-in-law who was my graduate student teacher never really introduced me to go beyond the guy getting a bachelor's and in shape to my academic credentials and you go to the University of Chicago.

12:16 Where you would suck so I can't hurry God his degree last but not least. That was my political Mentor as a man named milk frozen of a group call progressive labor party and he introduced to the notion that white folks were hurt by racism. Maybe not in the same degree chronic qualitatively, but quantitatively said, they are hurt not because of some moral issue which was an issue to time why people hurt because tomorrow's a big heart by racism. It said they suffer material disadvantage from right since I had never heard that before so he's been two hours back in for margaritas and after they live in the south as well get all of the all these privileges and he laid out the political Economic Consequences of racism in for the average white person even letting me think about it typically these days so there was some of the people and what would you say where the main lessons that you learned from these?

13:16 People well, I would have met you before for my father of the power of the narrative sermon time about a Baptist Minister thanks to his influence. My mother stupid priority necessity of having a social justice social Consciousness Consciousness in your religion from my mr. Owens up the power of writing that only we should be able to speak but also to write well and you can also convey information through writing as well as through his oratory the so-called vocal tradition Miss Ward internationalizing my mind got myself ready to participate in the French World eventually. I married a French woman from Geneva as result of her training and from dr. Jared Potty Power of a good academic research. I did a very I thought we were useful dissertation on the Reconstruction. Which is they tell me use my some students for their writing.

14:16 And for my brother Milton rolls underneath for some kind of revolutionary ideology of marxism-leninism in this case to eventually change the world.

14:26 So if you could interview anyone living or dead, who would it be and why would be Toby Schwartz Schwartz? I did not mention his name because he fits in with the milk frozen piece, but I would like to interview him more about his life. He started off his in a Jewish Community Jewish Family in Fort Wayne, Indiana eventually ends up in New York and becomes a very noted biophysicist and yet he still maintained his commitment to social change to find out. Why did he do that? How did he turn from students? Go to be a rabbi to a member of the Communist Party USA. What was the transition that he made?

15:10 So these two people correct me if I'm wrong milk rolls and and the other person you just mentioned Schwartz obese Wars. How did you meet these people under what circumstances without music by the time I'll make a quick we went to a I was running for governor of the state of Indiana Back in 1970 or 1972. I went to the Gary black politicians meeting since I was running for office and they were very welcome about that. That kind of did not allow me to bring in my second wife a white sister named Vicky cuz of the heck with this ring. She's my campaign manager and I'm the only black guy running for governor. You going to keep me out because of my wife I don't need to deal with that. That's it. Relation to me.

16:00 So I'm running around Gary trying to find out if I've had the Lord sent me to Gary pick up a leaflet leave. It says there's a progressive labor party demonstration at a place called off stale bill. So I go down there and they're going to hang out with you what they're talking about. They saw me there then and they invited me to spit speak and wearing a shirt and tie and it's not running for governor of the state of Indiana. What well then come on in here. That's what you have to say. It's like a boss song Let me see me a rip-roaring speech about the need for workers of the world to get together and have a world where we all can benefit from our labor fruits of our labor and as a result of that through a series of twists and turns I was invited to join a group call the international Committee Against Racism, but we charge was the organizer of it. Our job was to disprove the theory that race and intelligence were connected that was a movement that was designed to destroy the program that brought you into our University. We said it black folks with no in the lower class did not have the intelligence to really do higher education.

17:00 The waste of money and time to do so this IQ is genetic that you were a black person with a high IQ. But that was okay. I bet that you had your jeans for intelligence, but the lower class person who could pass an IQ test. Will it make your jeans are all messed up and so he have to leave that fight to put destroy their ideology. That was totally sure. It's the Rosa said well in the end you will have to have a revolution to change the entire system. Well that we get that idea still out there. Although the revolution has been postponed for a while. So the right now we got to keep fighting Against Racism from both of those men The Fight Against Racism have been a part of my commitment ever since I had already run for Congress in seven in the 1970s the anti-war candidate at the time. I was work with the Black Panther Party.

17:56 The plan was if the blacks were organized in the black community question or guys in the white Community. Unfortunately, we can I get any white radicals to organize. Well, I grew up in the South End about both white people to my knowledge. So I said hello, I'll take over that job of organizer white folks. That's how we set up a party called the Indiana Peace and Freedom Party that would parallel the Black Panther Party. Why was he white organizer for that group of success running for congress? We didn't win that was not the plan to win. The plan was to create an environment where the Black Panther Party could survive and I'll be shut up like it was say here in Chicago and also to reach out to White workers and students professionals through the theory of populism power to the people.

18:44 So is 72 weeks away we did such a good job running for Congress has tried Governor to do a Statewide can't pay this time. See what happens. That's why so much struggle and battling. I met the guy bets John Birch Society people and the people who work land. Klansman a former. Klansman. I met a lot of county fairs in a lot of pies and cakes pretty so we had a little group that was ranging from Evansville to the South to Gary in the north got me on the ballot. We had a big band fighting another battle about it. I had to work the George Wallace people to get that to happen and stool she'll get twists and turns we finally got on the ballot and I eventually according to one statistic came in third Democratic Republic and the end of Peace and Freedom Party at the George Wallace party. I pull more votes did enjoy it while it's people like their votes. So it was quite an experience is open my mind. That's why I really was just a lot of this empty white stuff that's out here today cuz I have no

19:44 I know he's conservative white folks. They are not crazy. They're just disappointed and disillusioned and desperate the 3DS.

19:55 Hey there! OVO what I went to it when I went to the John Birch Society meeting they had to fix Clans. What do it no longer wanting to kill black people like shoot'em. They just want to know how old a one and a white state of their own as they said when does Elijah Muhammad have a black State? We have a white stated. They had this idea of putting some space again that night all. We don't want Kelly we don't want to kill you don't we just dance the Jews? That's the problem so fucking hot Christ's sake here we go with that mess so they need that's what they would have been different. If no longer sort of a genocide all type of Clans, but they were separatists. They just want to have their own little white nation and they'll a little fight enclaves and at that time I was against busing and they were against busing that's all there was a point of unity it was destroyed.

20:55 We wouldn't community control of the school's not busting us halfway across town to people who are not prepared for that process later. I discovered it was the plan of those who push the busing to create racism out of it rather than actually Preparing People for a buzzing situation and some of these people jump out there protecting their school. The cleaning was Raising and training racism later by The 1975. I was one of the idea that but it was necessary to break up the segregated schools and salt Boston in 1975 how to get to pay them with about a thousand other young people and what we called the Boston Summer project. We had a greater Boston school and if I met some people from Southie go South Boston by celldweller, my migraines are my father. My great-great-great-grandfather was I was John Findlay, and I'm named after him.

21:55 Cyrus Billy Campbell though we got that kind of thing. So in regards to race relations today, what's your opinion on my Patricia? We have we have felt the division form of it. We have a multiracial this group The multi-racial List those people still fighting for the unity of the racial groups and they actually are majority but this Iris scanner connected by any organization like we would have had in the past that you have a separatist groups of the white separatist black separatists who want to have their enclaves and Bye Bye Blackbird with black Mary Black Black Keys to mow their internet blackest ideology, even though you live in this United States and then the third group of the collaborators who are at the upper levels fix everything all the time and how to she'll be safe take advantage of about racial division for their own profit privilege and Power.

22:55 And so that's the group puts the 1% 10% were going to call him create the drama that Teresa racheal of Dimensions. So I belong with the multi-racial list. I think that the elevation is a good thing we have made Advanced but there's now I need for a third reconstruction. We have any ideas on how we would go about that. Well, the first step is to have a common understanding about true condition. I like to put a tea party person in the room with an Evangelical with some unitary and liberal to the left-liberal with a real marxist-leninist. It's okay human beings that we are. What's the problem?

23:36 Then there's a need for the Idaho to keep it sounds like a myth of the dialogue everybody calls for the dialogue but very few people really put it into practice. So it's a matter of clearing the the garbage I would call the rubbish from the old segregationist A's the new racism actually depends on the participation of African American Elites to make it work the so-called talented tenth for the first step is battle off it so it might Church First Unitarian Church of Chicago We're sponsoring a Emancipation Proclamation pageant where we remember how the multi-racial struggle segregated though. It was led to the overthrow of slavery. So education film or renewed a new theory of racial relationships talented tenth. Can you explain a little bit more about that? Yes. I was a brother named the boys. I was a part of that talented tenth and my father and my mother were part of it to his theory was you with educated trade.

24:35 Percent of the black population for the negro population as we called it then and that group we protracted highest degree of Education possible. And as a result, they would then come back and get leadership to the other 90% And then bring them into the process. So we were set aside the Campbell family was set aside by this Theory. I went to Morehouse College Atlanta University University of Chicago. I got his talent now my series go back and reach out and bring people like Elizabeth Thomas into the scheme 69a a contract was struck by the Nixon Administration with the with some of the leaders of The Talented tenth between something like that look will let you in but God help us keep the others out until you begin to see The Peculiar reality is blacks being become Mayors and heads of Education institutions. It's no accident that woman been it whatever name is.

25:35 We used to be the head of the yeah, you think so white person could have got away by the way. She wrecked 50 schools impossible. That's what the deal was. We bring you a keep the rest of these folks out of class division that made racist look for profound interesting in terms of Neil racism. And that's why was a traitor I decided to reject the compromise and that's why I got fired from educational system program as you may remember

26:13 So what are the most important lessons that you've learned in life so far?

26:23 Tell me where you got to have faith in God. I don't most Marcus Lemonis are atheist. What I'm a marxist-leninist healthiest. I believe that there's something there and the stories that about this there that's found in Bibles in the store as my father used to tell stories. Those are from a dramatization of this there that operates in human history about the qualities about taking care of the poor about the create a world where everybody is brothers and sister. So that's the first thing is I got to have some physical some sort to shape my existence. Secondly. We you I have no right to be unprepared for the unexpected how many times has something unexpected happened in my life? And I think I hit my head against the wall here. Why why did this happen? Why did I do this? I should have done this. I should not have done that. Excuse me. I have a right to be fully and totally unprepared for the unexpected like would have to be in 1985 which

27:23 Black cherry or disable. It was like my world got turned upside down and I can see a psychotherapist and he gave me certain insights to it. But in the end it was something I was totally unprepared for therefore. I had a right to be unprepared and go with the flow and the third thing that I would have gone through my experiences. Is that no matter how we trying to reach Lee separate people. They always have my drift together, maybe some sexuality. Maybe it's true that the Arts through the music all of that work. They work in a second hard. So call hardcore Southern States like Mississippi Alabama where they at hard segregation today, you can go to these places at the bars are open in the school's over you can take what you want to because there's a force at work in the world that will not separate up there is that doesn't love a wall. That's all that's my third fourth that the power of good is always better than power of evil about how evil they think it's as powerful.

28:23 My father thinks you're Jesus fight the devil Olympic night of the Resurrection. It sticks in my mind on Jesus one. They tell me so what are you most proud? I am proud to have been a good teacher.

28:39 We got a little cheerful now. I am proud of the young people.

28:45 Who dat Joe chat stay far to ever break through the language barrier of learning The King's English and I sat down with the weather is Morehouse or UIC or device is due to technology. I worked out a system that was here to a very simple thing. You can learn this stuff. Just like you learn to talk just like you learn to walk you can learn to write clearly and definitively such a way that people can communicate with you hear the spirit of Thomas D. Jared flows through my veins. I love teaching. Love Sherry and even my preaching is teaching and it'll take there is no gain without some pain and many a student walking down the street.

29:45 It almost said something nasty. Anybody said I never will forget how you taught us and how that stuff stuck with me. So yeah, I rather be remembered for being a good teacher and a nice teacher. So if you can hold on to one memory from your life forever, what would that be spending two years can a hospital in

30:13 8824 closest Ward with black and white kids. My next door neighbor was a Serbian and nose guy named Johnny Mason who was black. I hope we have white nurses who work taking care of us. Like we were their own children and we had the janitors who were friendly. It was a peculiar communal Society where you go to school and then can your bed and your bathrobe you have to change clothes and go stroller down the hallways go to the school. So now how did you end up there or closest was called The Rescuer before the vaccination stuff came along. They have no cure for it except his pull you out of your normal life and make you bedrest tons of cod liver oil and stuff like that breakfast and then you had these steps you would take first you could have to use a rude and crude you had to do the bedpan route the greatest moment. We could go to the bathroom my God.

31:13 What's a board of Liberation way to buy some sad moments to the people who died in the room people so infected with tuberculosis that they were not going to live in my store first girlfriend name is Pauline named after my mother, ironically one more when you wake up cuz I made his all rolled up. Where is Pauline she passed last night. So I know a lot of things coming down that thing and doing my adolescent. Do you know from 12 to 14? So all kinds of hormones are roaring in that environment you all get better all the time. So your mind goes this way in that but act there I learned to be creative. I learn to write start writing stories pen. I will give him sort of leadership that I had to do it. That's where I saw the really the power of multiracial unity really saw it visibly may be eradicated. So that was a powerful experience. That was for 2 years.

32:11 Long time. So do you have any regrets? Yes. I have three regrets. Number one. I regret that I

32:22 Did not break up with my first wife before we got married and had this idea that I can through a false theory of Love make a negative situation work. But I know deep in my heart we would really not compatible. But you don't want to come all the way over to America from France from Switzerland and I felt I could just let her go cuz we had a major blow up. She found some old love letters that I had written to backing up 20 Century now, so I'm glad I get off so I should not a manner in which we if we tried to fight it out. She agreed to pass for Black so we can live in the south together in Atlanta and does she went through a lot of sacrifices and it just wouldn't win Atlanta was becoming integrated will be the people open with our relationship. I made the decision to stay in Indiana for her the end of the story so we will eventually broke up.

33:22 That's what I regret. Second regret was with my foster daughter Kathleen. I should have been much more of a father to her. And then I was at sort of didn't treat her emotionally correctly a very painful situation that we were able to a workout way through those situations, but she was very hurt by the fact that I divorced Vicky my second wife because you feel. I will destroy what little family that she had had on that way. So I wish I had been more open about explaining how these emotions work between human beings and my third regret was not getting my dissertation published. I was offered by the University of Chicago, press back of 69 to publish my dissipation. It goes really great had a lot of support from my faculty advisor including John. Hope Franklin Franklin famous black historian who helped me to do the do the research about the Reconstruction in American literature and I got a nice offer for the UFC had to be still have to edit this stuff. You got to recreate

34:22 44 popular vegetation, but I got to help organize the Black Panther Party in Indiana.

34:29 So BB is as I mean, it's not a regret regret, but I was an opportunity to maybe two since the Black Panther Party came apart. Anyway, I could have had at least a legacy of my academic work. So that's inspired me to think about republishing it.

34:45 So how would you like to be remembered?

34:48 Right of the drum major. That's a joke. I like to be remembered as one of the fighters for the Beloved Community.

35:01 Okay. So what are your hopes for what the future holds for you and for me for me? Well, I'm 81. I have 9 prostate cancer, which is always giving me high PSA figures. I've been all kinds of Chiropractic stuff to keep a health going but my my father

35:27 So my father died at 84th, I have fixed in my mind. That's my check out time over by other people you listen to those. You keep your help up and watch your diet. You made me go pass 84 so my hope for the future at the Gaylord that I will get these books written that I really need to leave at least a handful books that could be a part of the history of this human get this. Of History what history but books and letters and documents. That's all it is. I could have my part of that and in the process, so that's that's how I look at it. I want my legacy. I hope would be to put down in writing what I do a lot of talking about and I do have a lot of stuff that I've collected and sitting at my computer which now I have a creditor. I hope you have a plan. I've been waiting for some of this gas cuz I don't have a plan but my wife my third and final wife Bobby has worked out the plague in my office organized.

36:27 Things are and then start turning the stuff out. Why can't I be the next James Baldwin or Toni Morrison? This was to be our very last conversation. Is there anything you want to say to me?

36:46 I would say your degeneration like mine has a rendezvous with Destiny and that Destiny is not as hopeful as we had at the end of the 20th century is going to be a pretty complicated thing. Hopefully, I've given you enough insights and training about moral political and economic issues the insights for the progressive labor party in for the international Committee Against Racism from your own religious experience is combine them together so that you can be a tort. I got passed the torch to you in terms of the physical activity that need to be done and the fight to make the workplace more Humane is going to be the big battle of the 21st century. Meanwhile, we got to worry about World War 3 might be on the horizon if they don't sell this thing between the US and China Russia.

37:33 Keep it as an economic battle and they may be okay, but if it gets out of hand physically there we might have a a whole new Dark Age coming upon us.

37:42 But put it in your hands now.