George Pontikes and Elizabeth Pontikes

00:05 Elizabeth pentikis. I'm 40 years old. Today is September 8th 2016. I'm at the Chicago Cultural Center and I am the daughter of George Constantine pontikas. I'm 80 years old. Today's date is September 8th 2016 worth of Chicago Cultural Center and I am the father of my daughter Elizabeth.

00:36 Okay, Dad. So for your 80th birthday, I was excited to bring you in and interview you about your life here. So I was going to start with some childhood questions. So let's start with when and where you were born. Well, I was born in Chicago, Illinois at the lying-in hospital, which I don't think any exists anymore, August 11th, 1936 and my mother would always tell me that it was on the day. I was born the temperature was over a hundred and she had no air conditioning and a song and

01:18 My mother Sophie keriazes her married name was pontikas. My father was Constantine George pontikas. He was born in his village of Saint Nicholas in Greece mother was born in Chicago her father and my grandfather Demetrius get curious East was born in a little village north of where Dad was born and the villages are called I think of at the moment and he came here in 1898 or 99 and Dad came here in 1920. And those are the parent figures he grew up with your parents and your grandfather. Right? Right. Well, I both will all three had a major impact on my life.

02:10 The my father was a study in courage in the sense that when he left the grease in 1920. He was on the first.

02:27 Liner from then Constantinople to New York City and he was a busboy. He had left his village had gone to Athens and from Athens to Constantinople and there he got aboard the liner and came to New York. And how old was he then 16 years old and he got up the day after he docked he got up put together of the few small belongings he had

02:54 Put them into a little case.

02:57 Left the ship and never look back. What was your father like?

03:02 Dad was he was a quiet man in his own way, but he had a very sharp intelligence and he had a great sense of humor.

03:18 He worked first as a busboy then as a waiter and finally operated two or three restaurants in the loop before we ended up with the snack shop on 5700 West Chicago Avenue.

03:37 Mother was very vivacious outgoing the life of the party in many ways. She had the finished grammar school in high school, but she was not able to go on because my grandfather did not view education for women. So he she and her sister in Stella did not go beyond high school because it was my grandfather's view that they should get married as soon as possible and not worry about college. Tell me a little bit about growing up in the old neighborhood.

04:25 Our house was at 6436 South Drexel. It's now holding the ground but

04:35 It was in what was then still called Woodlawn we live there. I live there. I don't know how long mom and dad and my grandfather lived there before I was born but I live there for 12 years.

04:52 And are moving head historical significance because Woodlawn was kept Caucasian by restrictive covenants.

05:04 And in Shelley vs. Kraemer the United States Supreme Court determined that those restrictive covenants were unconstitutional as a result Woodlawn tipped to use the Chicago expression from

05:22 All African-Americans all Caucasian within a matter of 68 months 1948 and

05:32 We had a very lovely apartment that was three bedrooms. My grandfather lived with us and during I think it would be mid-year a little after 1948 our landlord Mr. Davenport said to my father Gus that was his name. We just sold the building to an African-American who wants Snow White's so we got up and left and move to 5700 West Chicago Avenue where I lived until mother and I got married. So did you change schools at that point? Oh, yeah. I attended. What was then Wadsworth grammar school, which I think today is called Watts worth of educational centers made of that sort. And that's where I went until I finish sixth grade and then I went to

06:28 Byford school where I finished through 8th grade and then to Austin High School where I spent four years before I graduated was it hard to change to make new friends a little bit it

06:44 But my recollection is it wasn't hard because my sister and I know my sister got Tina was born 2 years 2 months after I was made friends rapid leaves when we moved so it wasn't was not least. My memory is that it wasn't a difficult time having a hard time making friends Austin High School was interesting in those days because

07:13 With the segregation which was so prevalent in Chicago are high school was 5,000 and we had one African-American and the only reason he was there is because he was a good quarterback for our team or otherwise you wouldn't have been there. So and that was a result of segregation our neighborhood in Austin was almost totally Caucasian in those days and that of course is now changed because the neighborhood I think is almost all predominantly African-American. So tell me a little bit about being in the neighborhood and then going off to college. What was that? Like, how did it well

07:55 That was kind of an interesting experience.

08:00 I graduated second in my class. My daughters would say that I was the king of the dummies but the woman yes, it's Marjorie Goldstein Melvin Goldstein and I were tied for being in second position and I applied to Harvard College not thinking that I would be accepted. Although my grades were very good. And in those days, they didn't have the test that believe that we have now and it was done strictly on the basis of what you presented in your grades in school and an interview with a millennial and the so

08:53 But I was accepted much to my surprise. My dad dad was dumb father and he never thought that his son the son of an immigrant would possibly go to a wasp school like Harvard College, but I think as I think I've thought about it over the years. I think I was

09:16 The one of the first affirmative action babies because the admissions committee knew that I was the son of an immigrant so they wanted to encourage me. So I I I really think so, you know that but you know in this life, we always get a helping hand and that was I think mine to a great extent that yeah, so I went that age 18 and I went by myself on the train the New York Central because your grandmother and my mother was fearful of flying so I sat up in a single seat because we couldn't afford sleeping cars or anything of that sort. And so we

10:05 I set up for it was 26 hours that before I got the Boston how far have you gone outside of Chicago before then? That was the longest trip through your head. I think we had gone to Michigan on vacation. We had gone to Wisconsin on vacation but never that far and so at 18 years of age. I traveled almost a thousand miles to go to school. How did you feel leaving well?

10:35 I I can't say that I was fearful. I kind of look forward to what was going to happen being that we were a very close Greek family. It was difficult to leave Mom didn't like it at all, but she also didn't want to hold me back from going to Harvard. So I went I wanted to fly.

11:08 Mother was afraid so that's why I put all terrain, but after 26 hours, I told her on the way back. I'm flying. I'm not going to do that. Again. That was the old New York Central which is now and pray. So you told me about when you arrived in Cambridge that you remember the taxi driver. That's right. I arrived at I think it was wework South Station and I got out my head my huge. I want to come that's exactly which we don't use much anymore. I had a trunk and I was dragging it and I picked up the first taxi I could see that turned out to be an Italian taxi driver who was very nice and took me right to

11:57 The area in square Harvard Square in front of Massachusetts Hall where I was going to spend the first year and it's the first time you saw her. First time I saw her for the first time. I saw the interior of Boston first time I saw Cambridge this was all all knew him. And so it was very exciting in some ways and I spent one year in Massachusetts all and the three years of Kirkland house. And what do you think of some important reason or college experience? Well, I think it was a very interesting time at Harvard because the Harvard had been up until the presidency of James Conant had been what I would call the transmission belt for the wealthy white Anglo-Saxon students who went there from the private schools.

12:54 Conan made it for the first time a National Institution so that he encouraged students from all over the country my good friend Walter Baker who is now deceased in Who You chords no came from Columbia Kentucky under the old system. He would never have been you would never have gone. I would never have gone. And what happened was when Conant instituted the policy he was no longer president. When I arrive the old Anglo-Saxon family students were rendered in the minority and all of a sudden the place was full of, you know, Greek Americans Jewish Americans African-Americans. And so we came from your the middle and middle classes and sometimes the lower middle classes are students and that transform the entire School.

13:54 Or did you feel like it still in some ways belongs to the WASP minority? No, I think what happened was which was interesting the WASP minority.

14:07 I went into their private clubs and had very little to do with us. And so we were by we I mean those of us would come outside of that group a banded together and we became him socially friends. So when I was in Kirkland when I was most of my friends were not wasps if you were but most were not tell me that your friends from Kirkland well,

14:39 We have an interesting group.

14:42 Our

14:45 Master Beach House Headmaster, that was Charles Taylor and he had just taken a Kirkland house over from the prior master who was Mason Henry Masonite and he wanted what we would call today at diverse house. So the system that we had as freshman. I was that we would list our choices and in the Masters would pick us up. So I think I had listed Kirkland houses either second or third and he picked me up and large group. My friends were they friends before we became friends when we because we came from all out late. The class was a little a little either more or less 1000. So yeah, we became close friends in the three years. We we stayed in Kirkland house. We had some interesting people.

15:42 David greenstone who is now deceased of blessed memory was a very close friend of mine. He eventually became a full professor of American History at the University of Chicago College written several seminal works. I am probably was one of the greatest people in my in our group Robert November who also was very bright. I think both he and David or summa cum laude and Robert the who is still with us. And with whom I get home. I see when we are together at the reunions became an editor at the New York Times and remain there for many many years.

16:32 Terry leverage who was recently died was probably the brightest of us all he had an IQ of 106 and was a brilliant mathematician and I know you had another hundred because you know, that that's really up to the high level normal goes up to somewhere on 95 and go after that. It's your really in the upper Stratosphere and the Walter Baker when we talked about coming from Columbia, Kentucky.

17:08 There used to be a book called.

17:13 Buy a jewish-american only in America who was Henry.

17:19 I can't think of anything right now and I always always think of that title because only in the United States of America would Walter Baker who was a descendant of Daniel Boone become a close friend of the son of a Greek immigrant, but we may remain close friends. As you know for many many years until his death Walter ultimately became a member of the Kentucky House of Representatives to Kentucky Senate then went to work for the Department of

17:55 Defense is assistant general counsel had a distinguished career sat on the Supreme Court of Kentucky for a while and served. The Commonwealth is Kentucky is called with great honor that you guys do in college.

18:16 My memories are that when we finished class which was generally.

18:24 One 2:00 in the afternoon. We will then start our discussions right after lunch and which was something we'd be sitting in the Kirkland House dining hall and those discussions we go through dinner after dinner down to we have a place called The Waldorf Waldorf cafeteria and their the discussions would continue until the Waldorf close down which was like three or four in the morning how we were able to get up to go to class. I'll never know. When did you do your homework? We weren't having the discussion we do our reading but there was a those I remember and they were stimulating discussions because the people were intellectually high-caliber and very interesting so, that's our

19:19 Matters philosophical matters political matters other areas were each of us had an interest mine was philosophical Terry Swiss mathematic members was political as was David's and sometimes others would join us would have interest dialed my friend Robert.

19:50 November not over with these from California, Bob Underhill was a linguist so we would discuss things like the origin of the you'd Eskimo language things of that sort that we would learn for in the process was that we would learn from one another which was of course critical for my are my point of view we did and we had a very the the atmosphere was interesting because Harvard then as now was essentially made up of Faculty who are either agnostic or atheist. And so that was the prevailing religion religious culture. The those of us who came out of religious backgrounds suddenly found the universe turned upside down because

20:47 We're talking about American society in the 50s. I started 1954.

20:53 Was highly religious in the sense that people went to church and this was the structured way of living which of course is totally changed now, I think now the nuns mean those who are not religiously Affiliated are around 30% at this point or more according to the Pew polls. But in those days it was a different story outside of Harvard. So have you met anyone who is atheist or agnostic? Wooden? Is it before Harvard one was the fact that you ran smack into the atheistic agnostic wall, and so it created an interesting situation because

21:39 All religious experience was being challenged which meant that it didn't matter anymore. If you were Christian Jewish because the religious experience in and of itself was at stake. So we all banded together to defend the concept that there was divine Authority. However you to find it and that there was a realm of the Eternal which the atheists and agnostics deny. Can you question that all

22:12 Well for some degree the

22:17 You did have to do that because in philosophy you were constantly being challenged in terms of all of your beliefs. And so yes and you had to decide for yourself whether a religious experience was valid or not valid, you know, and that that caused a number a lot of discussion. I should mention my friend Scott spear who was Episcopalian as was Terry leverage at Walter was Presbyterian in the Presbyterians. Of course, we're a little Spade but you know, we all engaged in those discussions with those who were now Bob November to this day is agnostic David greenstone was agnostic. So we all talked with one another and our ideas would bounce off each other as we try to understand our own point of view.

23:13 But yeah, that was that was a great deal of the discussion. We had too late into the night and you

23:21 Began to have to I was baptized as a Greek Orthodox archdiocese here and I remain the member of the church for a long. Of rap until now and I've been very active in it. But I had to go back and see to what extent what I believed was valid and that have the because you had to be thought through particularly because we were kind of we who

23:55 Head Bridges affiliations were in a minority in Harvard and we felt like we were in the proverbial Foxhole, because everything around this question the validity what we thought believe I think of it as a valid like what makes you what we'll make it valid or invalid to have those beliefs ultimately is the quote Saint Paul. It's a matter of Faith you either you you have to realize what you will thoroughly did realize that

24:26 There was no way to prove the existence of God or the Eternal rationally because y'all if you look at the the proofs of Thomas Aquinas, for example, all of them are not logically valid like you would consider a mathematical proof. All right on the other hand. There was no way of proving that God didn't exist either. So the issue then became what was if I may use the term real for you another words, I remember

25:02 I had an interesting discussion when I was a junior. There was a young Roman Catholic freshman who had joined us a right to know he was a sophomore at this point cuz we worked hard and Kirk and I think I may have been to see her and he started to argue with us that Aquinas had proved that God existed. So I went through each of the proofs and demonstrated to them that they didn't prove it so he felt very downhearted and I finally said to him and then I felt bad and I said, let me ask you I said

25:36 Do you feel as if you have a connection with God when you take the Eucharist and he said yes I said so you needn't be understood at that point that we were talking about chasing that reason so they but those were those are the kinds of discussions we had. I think it made me a better Orthodox after 3 years. And so we put those three years were probably the most formative for me in my life experience. Although others know we had going on politically too. So you became much more liberal and how does that happen? When will you begin to understand that?

26:31 And this is the stems to a great extent from the Christian faith. If individuals have value as individual human beings then the question is what are the political and social structures that prohibit them from developing whether it's economic whether it's social discrimination is it wasn't my day segregation, of course being the absolute worst in those terms. So you begin to understand that that is requires the reshaping of our society and that means you follow on with automatically into a liberal Camp because the last thing can serve as 1 is to reshape anything. So that is how it all came about and the oatmeal in Harvard influenced us because Harvard is basically a very liberal Institution.

27:31 After law school, so it's 1960. Right? What I did was I graduated from Law School in 1958, I'm sorry. I'm getting from college in 1958 and I want immediately in the law school and graduated 1961 and I started to practice and then I went to Northwestern University as a graduate student in a criminal justice and then I started to practice law in January of 1963. And then you live in the Civil Rights and anti-war movement. Oh, yes. Well, we're now talking in 63. We were starting.

28:16 As you know

28:18 President Kennedy had already begun the incursion into the war in Vietnam and attempting to in some ways protect the so-called South Vietnamese from the North Eisenhower had already sown the seeds because he refused to recognize or law or recognize a referendum That was supposed to take place. I forget when 5758 because he was afraid that the Communist would win so as a result and there was no unity in Vietnam. So as a result that then became a struggle between the vietminh and the group headed by Ho Chi Minh and the South Vietnamese were largely Roman Catholics or Buddhists who did not fit into the Communist ideal.

29:19 The problem we had then.

29:21 Was that

29:24 Because there was a fear of Communists overcoming governments and so forth that

29:33 United States never realized that Ho Chi Minh was kind of the George Washington of the Vietnamese and

29:42 They were not in regardless of whether he was a communist or not made no difference to them because he represented the Nationalist movement. And so we got into the war and it was a terrible War tell me about year when you were representing people who were trying to avoid the war. Well, I could get involved in that my partner I'm with her shirt to work for before. She went and Drake in 1963 was when I started the practice law and Bob Drake who was my senior partner had defended conscientious objectors during World War II when it was much more difficult to do it and he then brought me into the practice and then when the war started in Earnest in the Vietnam, I then started to represent conscientious objectors many who I simply wanted to avoid the draft and so forth and that went on from

30:42 I would say maybe 65 until 71 how were you able to get them out of the draft? Well, it would depend upon the circumstances. For example, if they had medical defects they weren't conscientious objectors. You could they would be granted one wire for us status you would play if you had student deferments. You would continue mine until they passed 26 in which case they wouldn't they wouldn't be tractable anymore because that 26 you are no longer within the range.

31:19 You could basically

31:23 Those who are in my mind, there were two sets of young men because the women were not subject to draft one were the conscientious objector or principle by should say when were the conscientious objectors who objected to all war and they had to be defended right down to the wire and if you if you got that to represent them soon enough you can build a file which would be sufficient so that if you had to go to court you could win the others were principals were those who went

32:01 The rest in my view for unprincipled L. Yes. That was Jack McCart my car versus the United States. Are you that when I was 33 years old and my card was an interesting person.

32:27 His father had been a fighter pilot in World War II so under the statute when his father died.

32:36 Jack McCarthy was given what's called a for a which is an exemption based upon the family because during World War II there was a threat to a whole family of Irish people whose name. I forget right now several several brothers. And so Congress passed law that said if you are the sole surviving member that family you are exempt

33:00 The problem grows both because of bureaucratic stupidity and on the part of the Selective Service System and my clients obstinacy and because

33:11 Jack McCarthy every time you got a communication from his draft board in Hamilton, Ohio with some back a letter saying you are no different than the Nazis. You are ready to send us all etcetera etcetera etcetera. So they thought they had put them safely away in for a because he was his father was well-known that small town but when they got the directive from the director state director that he had to be reclassified then the whole thing started.

33:40 The

33:42 It's like the service is legal basis was weak to poor because it was clear from the debates that sole surviving member of a family did that mean family horizontally it meant have family vertically which meant that you were talking about The Descendants as well as as a people who were the immediate family. So that was clear from the Congressional Record Selective Service saw it. Otherwise he was but the problem was he never went through the process. So he was convicted of refusing to submit to induction and the government argued that his defense was barred because he didn't show up for his physical. He didn't show up, you know, and finally

34:32 When we got to the Supreme Court, we argued that it wasn't necessary for him to go through those processes because it would have been futile and the court agreed was 8-0 was an interesting sidelight was that time the solicitor-general was my old Dean Erwin Griswold and

34:54 Just before the argument started at 10 in the morning. I walked up to him and I said

35:01 Good morning, Dean. He looks at me with his bushy eyebrows, and he said what class I said 61 so he shook his head up and down and we beat them anyway, so I wanted to talk about going down to Mississippi and we went in 63. I think it was in June or July with the National Council of lawyers. And I spent one week seeking to implement the processes. They have African Americans vote, which was very very difficult. My most memorable. My greatest memory is

35:41 Just before I went.

35:46 Goodwin Chaney and schwerner have been killed the three. Your grandmother was concerned that I was about to be assassinated going down there. But how long before you went when we so

36:01 The William Kunstler and is associated file the lawsuit to restrain the hate groups within Mississippi and the lawsuit was dismissed by a local functionary federal judge who was a product of segregation Sydney my eyes as we walked out of the courtroom. It was a huge crowd of people and they were screaming Niger lover etcetera etcetera and I thought for sure we were going to be attacked and we had to Rita schwerner with her. It was showing his widow and we made sure that we got her in the car and got out of there, but I never will forget the look of hatred on those faces. It was just unbelievable and it was something you remember for a long time that I did my week. They're did my best and came home but

37:01 We had to sleep we could not rent rooms in the local motel or hotel because they wouldn't allow it to him. He knew we were they know those from the north who were stirring up trouble. And so we slept on mattresses on the floors of the business establishments of African-Americans. And that's how I spent the whole week drive around. Oh, yeah. We we drove in pairs because we have two would have happened to Cheney sure winner in Goodland leave who wanted to make sure and do our phones are being tapped by the White Citizens Council which we knew and that's when I decided when I called Mom and Dad your grandmother and grandfather and grandmother that I would speak to them in Greek cuz I figured there was no Yahoo down there, whatever understand and so it taught me how

38:00 Virulent the hatred was I mean, I was just unbelievable unbelievable at the same time. The year afterwards is when I Met Your Mother well

38:15 Your mother first of all with a beautiful woman

38:19 To this day. She is. Secondly we were both Greek and we were both Orthodox and both very religious. And so we fell in love and we recognized, you know, the similarity of our backgrounds and we've been in love to this day and we've been married over 50 years. So and of course we had three wonderful daughters you Rachel and Rebecca who are the pride and joy our pride and joy as well as our grandchildren Zoe Nora a little Yosef going to ask

38:59 What your proudest of and what are some of the most important lessons you've learned? It's well minute left when I was down in Mississippi. The lessons I've learned is.

39:17 In this Society we will never overcome. Our obstacles are discriminations or our the violence that we have unless we learn to truly love one another because there is no other way than that. I am reminded if I have enough time to the story of Old Judge Hermes who had to Neighbors in front of him who were filed the CrossFit complaints for disorderly conduct and you looked at them both in this was during the Cold War. He said to them you have got to learn to love one another the bomb is coming and then he dismissed the case isn't too so I always remember those words now that was probably 40 years ago, but that's what we have to do and we can continue our going and it's not possible you.

40:17 You see the news everyday you see the war in Syria the killings. You see what the what Isis is doing and you see the terrible terrible hatred and we just stopped cannot continue as a World War Two interdependent and we have to agree as a good judge said to learn to love one another.