Christine Jones and Ashley Saunders

00:04 Hello, my name is Christine Jones. I am 49 years. Old today is Saturday, June 5th. 2021.

00:15 I live in McGaheysville, Virginia. And today, my conversation party is Ashley Saunders and we are friends and partners and advocacy.

00:28 Hi, my name is Ashley Saunders. I'm 37 years old. On today is Saturday, June 5th, 2021. I am in Broadway, Virginia and Cassie and I are friends and we are advocacy Partners in rural, Virginia.

00:50 Yes, and we should also, they are part of preferred pronouns, my preferred front or she her, and my preferred pronouns.

00:59 Okay, and so we should also talk about like, kind of more about how we met. I think would be helpful that long. I I am at the parent of a trans teenager in rural Virginia and I had been hitting some roadblocks and I'm having my son be seen. And so I started a Facebook group and that is closed for parents and allies of lgbtq teens or all students in our County and Christine, and I, I kind of threw that and mutual friends found each other.

01:49 And we both showed up with are, you know, our shirts and serious advocacy faces about some issues that we wanted this moment to speak to the school board about but I am I am an advocacy a kind of threw another Avenue. So I am I do not identify is lgbtq and I don't have children that do but I am the state leader of national nonprofit called free mom, hugs.

02:26 And it's a movement that started several years ago, by Sarah Cunningham. And we go to Pride festivals and give out hugs to the children and adults who may not have supportive environments in their homes. So we offer them just support in that setting and let them know that they're loved and seeing and value. And I can share just like a tiny snippet of how I got involved with that. But I really want you to sort of be the center of of the storytelling say Ashley because you are living, this experience all day, you lived in growing up and and certainly through your child. So I want to keep you centered in that discussion, but I do want to share just a tiny snippet if it's okay, if how I got involved with free mom, hugs.

03:22 Please do so. And you met, you probably don't even know this story. Ashley. So this will be fun. So I was driving and listening to a podcast on Jen hatmaker's podcast. Actually that we're both Mutual huge fangirls of denim or by the way.

03:45 And is so funny. Ashley. I actually was doing a search looking for a quote of hers the other day on my social media. And the first time I shared something that she wrote was almost exactly 10 years ago. So, yeah, I've been following her for a long time. But at any rate, I was listening to a podcast and Sarah Cunningham was the guest. Who is the founder of free mom, hugs. Now, I didn't know who she was at all at that time, but she was sharing the story of how she got into advocacy through her son, coming out to her as a young adult man, and she was raised much as we were.

04:31 Ashley very conservative fundamentalist, Christian Roots, and she did not initially receive that news. Very well, sort of didn't know what to what to do with it. And

04:47 With really not sure.

04:50 How to hold on to her faith and support her child. And so she went on this this journey and she shared her journey in the podcast and I started crying so hard. I was we were going to Thanksgiving like with my family, in my head, my son, and my son with my mom, what's wrong? And I said, this is just not, right. This is just not, okay? And so much of her story was about

05:25 Just the way that her church family, I reacted to this news to them as a family and it is it eventually resulted in our leaving church and

05:42 And because I am at the time that I heard the podcast was really going through a phase deconstruction of my own. I just felt so, held as a person as a teacher and a parent myself who is very focused on child. Advocacy. I just thought, you know, this is just not. Okay. Like this is this is a structure that I've been a part of or was apart of not so much at that point in my life or at this point, but I was like, this is this is reconciliatory work that needs

06:22 It really does. And I want I really want us to begin to that. But you do. I would love for you to share some of your story which I know is mirrors, so many other parents going through the same thing, but you have also have your own story. So I'd like to hear a little bit of both.

06:43 Well, I said, we grew up in Christian fundamentalism. I'm from a very small town in the middle of Illinois. I went to a very large church. We had a cold and it was like the throes of like 90s Purity culture, you know, True Love, Waits and all these bands been like you're going to find your spouse and get married, but I'm skinny jeans like 10 before. I'd ever heard the term bisexual knew I was attracted to both boys and girls, I would watch TV and I'd be like, I want to kiss that boy, but I want to kiss that girl to, I didn't really think much of it, and I didn't know any gay people because it was a very small town and it was the night. He's so the gay people in my

07:43 Community, that lgbtq people were not openly out. And so,

07:52 I really struggled once I came into my own 1314 and on with my bisexuality because I love Jesus. I have left Jesus. Since I was three years old. I had to hide. I had to hide who I was. I was terrified that someone was going to find out. If I had like kissed a girl. I did not want people to know that, like outside of church, you know, I was a punk, rock, kid, I'd go to these basement shows. I listen to punk rock music. That was gay affirming.

08:32 And I didn't want anyone in my church to know that I was bisexual and that I loved gay people. I love them personally, love that. And so, I hid and I met my husband and I said, listen, I'm going to tell you this and he's a he's a Christian and I said I'm going to tell you this about me because I really feel like we're going to be something serious and this was 20 years ago. I said I'm attracted to girls to I've had girlfriends and I'm really working on it because I I know that this is something that like it may make you uncomfortable and he was just like you're bisexual still what? He was never intimidated by it and he affirmed it. He watch me go through this struggle. I would pray, I would say, I feel like God isn't there. He's not listening to me. I'm asking him to take this away from me. Why isn't he doing it? And finally, with like tears?

09:32 My eyes and looking at the Bible, you are fearfully and wonderfully made and I put the pieces together. I knew I was bisexual before I knew what my sexuality was. I didn't seek it out. It wasn't something that was presented to me. Is something that like people do, which is like a huge Christian argument against the lgbtq community. Is that a certain fashion?

09:56 But it was just a part of who I was and growing up and why would it be that way? If God did not instill that in me in my creation. And so I went from being terrified of this piece of me that same-sex attraction that I was raised to know was a sin and being fully immersed in the Holy Spirit saying this is you girlfriend. This is how God created you. This is who you are and this is your path and that really has, I'm stuck with me. I tolerated a anti-lgbtq church for over a decade. I brought my children to it and I have apologized profusely. You know, I have a trans son. But I also have a 15 year old daughter who doesn't

10:56 Have a she identifies as female that her sexuality has no label and she does not want to be within the confines of that.

11:09 And then I have a 6 year old and she, I want her to grow up, loving God, and loving Jesus, but not in a patriarchal system that is going to tell her that who she loves and how she was created is wrong.

11:29 So we left our church and found an lgbtq affirming church, and now, three and a half years of my son. He was a senior in high school was in 5th grade when we left. And it was two years after that. He had come out to me as gay. Still identifying as female and came out to me as gay. And I was just like, okay. I'm how, how do you feel now that you've told me, how can I support you? Where are you? And telling other people,

12:09 And I'm, he told me on the way to piano lessons and I drove in a circle and I cried tears of fear, cuz we're in a very small town and I didn't want anyone hurt my kid and I did not know that that was just going to be a strength training exercise for what, what's going to happen to years later. But it was, I had to be like, okay, my my at the time daughter is a lesbian and I fully support her in that.

12:42 You stayed for two years in that in that church. And like, did you did you kind of a 10 that whole time? Like what was your experience? We were not attending church at that time. So he he was in 5th grade when we left. And then in 7th grade, he came out tonight and I have to wonder, man, if we were still at church and I still, you know, I love Jesus. And if I was assuming that church, even though I'm openly bisexual, even though I openly love the gay community. My son would see me say it's okay for us to attend a church that does not affirm him.

13:25 Or had my son come out. I know for a fact this church would have really asked us to support my son. In denying his saying. You can't see my quotes but same-sex attraction because that is what these big very hit churches. Do you can be gay, but you can't be gay here, you can serve, but if you have a spouse at home, you can't be visible here.

13:54 That was very much that church. So we were just kind of in our own spiritual Wilderness and my husband was like, I don't want to attend a church, that doesn't love the lgbtq community and doesn't support people of color. And we both said that is what we need in a church. We never looked at God and said, why are you like this? Never looked at Jesus inside? Why are you like this? But we've looked at the followers and we said, why are you taking something that should be freedom and using it to cause depression and we were.

14:32 And I said, if I never set foot in another church, again, I know there are people like me out here and we will just be our own community.

14:43 And so, yeah, but you really have more hope than I did because because when I was going through that with my family and it was very close to around the same time that I heard that podcast actually that we were having this sort of crisis of community like where it where do we find?

15:06 These other people of faith that are willing to to, really take a stand on this issue to not just be too, not just in a few and not and not agree loud with the sentiment that like, you're welcome here, but you can't but you can't serve here. You can't, I hear, but you can't preach. Are you. Did you know that whole double standard that that churches have of like you can come in and we're not going to persecute you but will take your money.

15:50 Oh, yeah, I'm not a whole like we were in that space and because we were in a church, that was that was not definitely not affirming, but they would also never call out somebody that came in that said, oh I'm gay. They would say a whole year and still welcome here. And I know that. So it's like where do you? I was like in the space. Like where does this even exist in rural community exists? And how do we find them? And you really do get to the point as when you become a parent and I think it's one thing to know, you can be persecuted and and catch a lot of flak as an adult and you sort of find out. Well, there's a lot I can take. There's a lot I can handle but when it comes to your kids,

16:42 That is a different matter entirely and complaining that point where you're like, you know, I just I want to be on the right side of history when my kids look back. And that's where we were because we didn't have kids that they came out to us. We didn't share that experience. But we had, you know, we have kids that care about doesn't want any good allies? And I was like, what is it say about us? If we stay in this if we can take in this church, that isn't affirming I need. But they'll look back and say, you know,

17:17 And thank the word spineless and it's because then we wouldn't. It was really yeah and I have you know, I'm a I am a believer that we apologize when we know better and I've apologized to my children because I know better I was

17:40 I needed that. I needed family. I didn't have family in. So I really connected with the church and, you know, I still love those women. And I cherish the time that I had with them because I hope that they see now where I am with my children and my family and I hope maybe this seed is planted. Like what do I do? If I'm in the situation, how do I love my child fast? And I hope that they know you don't have to choose between your face and your child. I want to like I just need it on a t-shirt. You don't have to choose between your face and your child because

18:24 If your fate lead you to reject your child, then your faith is toxic and you need to really read that out of your life.

18:40 When my son came out as gay in 7th grade, he was starting to really struggle with Manic episodes and we would drive all night and we would have to get late night milkshakes and he would just stop. And he'd always, really struggled with his mental health, even as a child small child.

19:02 And I didn't know what was going on with him. And we got him a therapist tweet. He was medicated. They were sleep studies, and it all came to a head, his sophomore year where my childhood never got below an a with failing failing school. And I saw it in his guidance counselors room and I was just like, I don't know what to do and he'd been given a diagnosis of bipolar disorder which runs in my family and my dad was a self-medicating drug addict and alcoholic because of his bipolar disorder and I was looking at my child and I was like this, this is, this is going to be my wife. I'm going to be like my grandmother who didn't sleep for decades because she worried about her child and I did it quietly out of respect. For my son, who has given me permission to tell this story because

20:02 I didn't want people to look at my son and see someone with bipolar disorder or mental health problem. And there's this huge Sigma, especially with the towel and get medicated. My mother has yelled at me and said, why is your kid on these meds? And I might because it's either their medicated or their death choose one.

20:23 And towards the end of his sophomore year, he sat us down and he said, I told my therapist this and I have told my

20:33 My guidance counselor, this and I know that you you signed paperwork for me to say my name is Cody and I'm tran, I am a boy. I've started using the pronouns at school and I want to start for a long time. He still went by his dad name and wanted female pronouns at home cuz I think the social transition because he had a break from it when he was home to have really kind of recharge the energy, it takes to transition and then go back out into the world cuz we were like what?

21:10 My response wasn't just like ye celebratory. I stopped. And I yelled, and I was like, are you sure? Are you sure? Because I was so afraid I had seen what Society was doing to trans people. I have been reading the stories of this beautiful trans women of color in Atlanta that were being murdered and nobody. Nobody was taking it seriously and they wouldn't use the right gender in the newspaper and they wouldn't use the correct name and I was looking at my already very fragile. Child. Now, I thought was what do I do when the world Choose You Up?

21:53 And I didn't sleep and I didn't go with it a lot because I was so used to. This is what we're doing as a family and I'm not talking about it.

22:11 And the pandemic happened and my son was supposed to start testosterone in April and I, we couldn't get into the endocrinologist anymore because covid and we had a year at home to fully just as a family.

22:34 Get my six-year-old used to sing brother and encouraging other people to say siblings instead of sisters.

22:43 And,

22:45 George Floyd was murdered.

22:49 And are very small town, had a black lives matter rally to support the children of color at our high school here. Just like we are done, being called racial slurs, with no consequence. And we are here to to give her voice and we want to be heard.

23:10 And my my kids help organize it and we went and we were surrounded by men with guns. We had to walk through them, to get to the park. We had to walk through them to get to our cars. We were helping children teenagers walk to their cars because it was so unsafe.

23:32 I looked around and I said, I can't be quiet about this. I can't be quiet about my son. I can't be quiet about the oppression that is happening in my community. When I know we are better than that.

23:45 And I sat my son down and I said, what is it really? Like, it's cool. Tell me your truth. There were like 70 teachers who put together the awesome plan to help transition him from his dad name and Ted pronouns to his now legal name and his prompt his preferred pronoun.

24:05 And I said, tell me, Tell Me Your Truth at school.

24:10 And he said, okay.

24:12 My teacher still dead made me. They will not allow me to change my name on my school email. So I have to deal with my dad's name to get an education.

24:21 Every time I ask, can I change my name in the yearbook? Can I change my name to walk across the stage at graduation? I'm told it has to be legal name change which is not supposed to be happy. Not the easiest thing to say by our administration at our school. And I got really frustrated with hitting my head against the wall. And I said, what do I do? I'm not the only one here and I started that Facebook group and my goal was 40 people. I need it for two people to say my child is on is lgbtq or I support people who are lgbtq or I'm a parent who is lgbtq. I needed us to see each other. It was like, driving through or small town and seen the occasional. Be a limb sign or Biden sign. Okay. We're not the only ones here.

25:21 This make a phone of bigotry that is blasted. In my face. Everyday is not the only platform. It's just it's just the last one.

25:39 You know, I'm so tired of white.

25:45 Best Christian men being handed the microphone because for some reason that combination of things supposedly gives you Authority and I'm so done with that. So I started this Facebook group. We have around a hundred and ten members and we started really saying this is not okay. We live in this community. We know lgbtq children. We know trans children. My son is not the only trans child at his school. And I know that there are others terrified to come out because they don't want to be

26:30 The one who it has a giant bull's-eye on their back and it isn't necessarily the kids. It is the adult. Yes. Yes, and then and then it's being back by children because that's, you know, I mean, that's we're products of our environment, right? And I know for a fact,

26:53 Because I know lots of people and that parents and allies Groove. I know for a fact that many of them. In fact, I would be comfortable staying at least half. If not, the majority are people of Faith. These are people that go to church. These are people that that really live in relationship with God and are at peace with the condition of their souls. And they still find a way, you know, to, to be allies and believe that this is not, this is not an issue of religion. This is not an issue of some social epidemic, that's new, which is not new, by the way, but this is, this is a human rights issue and you don't have to agree with every single thing, you know, to believe that someone has the right to exist in safety and indicted.

27:55 And ask people. If they say, it should be us first. That's right. We should be leaving the church dropped the ball. The church has dropped the ball on reparations of slavery. We kept people in bondage and are still keeping people in bondage today. My least favorite argument is I've never owned display. Therefore, I owe you, nothing. And I believe, wholeheartedly as long as the people of color in the black community are living with trauma from their ancestors being slaves. Then we have to impart say

28:33 I have never owned a slave but my ancestors in the Christian church, did not do enough to break your bondage of slavery, and I have to take that on and and this generation continues to benefit. So you might not have been an active participant, but you continue to benefit, right? So if you continue to benefit from the structure of systemic racism, yeah, you're responsible.

29:11 And where do people take where do many people take their social leads the church? What does the Bible say? Everything I do is based on the Bible where the pastor's wisest men at the pulpit. You need to say.

29:31 We have to take.

29:34 Our egos out of this and admit that we have kept people in bondage. We are keeping lgbtq people in bondage. We are oppressed in the name of what a power structure.

29:51 You know, Jesus says the least of these, the least of these, you know, love those who, who society says you aren't lovable, hang out with sex workers in, and invite people who are addicted to drugs and an end. One of everyone, and there is no astrix to it.

30:14 Friends.

30:17 The church says well, no one's attending church anymore. Why aren't people attending shirt? Because they don't want to sit and stay. I support. Hate young kids know better because they have an entire world in their bedrooms as much as Tik-Tok is annoying and as much as white supremacy is also being bred there. The proud boys started online.

30:46 There are also kids sitting in a rural Virginia with families who have never left their Hill or their holler who are seeing.

30:57 Beautiful, trans, women, drag queens. All of these things for the first time.

31:06 And we as adults who support them and support the lgbtq community and support seeing reparations for people of color, can't be silent anymore. We don't get to finally say, I support you. We have to also grab our megaphone and drowned out hate.

31:26 So that there are more yes, and that leads me to a great question, which I think is so important for four people of Faith to seize upon any and you noticed I have I totally shy away from the word Christian because I don't use it anymore because I think it's been hijacked by people who aren't so I don't even use that word anymore. But here's the question that I think that we all need to think about. And that is, is there a place in the world anymore as it exists? Now in 2021 for Passive support of the lgbtqia community? Or any other marginalized group of humans, is there room for that anymore?

32:15 And you. And I know the answer to this because we're we're we're we're doing the work right? That I think we're reaping what we sowed in the 90s racism. Oh my gosh. There's a gay man on his sitcom.

32:33 See, everything's great. We did pay attention to what the government was doing. We didn't pay attention to the laws that were being passed. We were passing and people fighting for the right to get married. We work past is this is not the time to be passive because not only are people trying to stop forward momentum. They want to hit rewind, and that is not. Okay. So there is no room for passive voice and if it is scary, then you find someone else who also says, I agree and you build your structure and then when you get to a structure where you are not a part of that Community. You say where do I hand this microphone? Yes, we have to let people of color lead the way and how they are treated. We need to let the lgbtq community lead the way and how they are treated.

33:33 And we need to step back and say, I hear you.

33:37 I will fight this fight along with you, but I also will not insist on carrying this flag. That is not. Mine. Advocacy is tricky and Ally ship is tricky.

33:51 But nothing worth reward.

33:55 Doesn't have work. And if we want to see all people treated equally then it's you got to give the ball to the people who have done the work. And you have to also lifts them up and say, I am right here and I will not allow homophobia or racist rhetoric within my presents. I will not be afraid of my Racist, uncle at Thanksgiving and I am here to say when you cannot stand up for yourself. I am standing with you and for you.

34:32 And we can't be quiet anymore. It's you're done the other day through my social media history for Jen hatmaker. Quote. There was for this particular one that really struck me and that's where we're both. Such big fans. I was like, I need to share this one with Ashley because you will love this, if you don't already know it, but maybe we can wrap up our art. I'm putting this out there, but this is so beautiful. She wrote this in 2018.

35:15 And she says,

35:19 When those flourishing are primarily in one category, mostly white mostly men. Only straight people able-bodied only those with money, only those with power, we must pay attention because that is at the expense of someone else. That is not life, but death

35:40 If you even flourishing in any context, a church, a denomination of business structure, a social strata, the justice system is homogeneous than that, is not life. That is privileged and someone else is paying for it by dying.

35:59 Oh, thank you so much for sharing your story. Ashley. I love you so much, and I love doing this work with you.

36:09 I'm so thankful. We have found each other through advocacy. But also I'm just thankful. You're in my Village and I look forward to many, many years of seeing the progress in this place that we both love because it's happening and people can try to trample it down. But you know, we have many many years of growing a thick skin. So even if they make me, you know, fall to the ground, I've popped up many times. I'll pop up again until every kid in rural Virginia knows, they are loved and worthy of love and every teacher knows that being

36:56 Anti-lgbtq is no longer acceptable. So thank you for letting me. Come on and tell the story today. Thank you.