Christopher Kendel and Mary Ellen Jordan

00:02 Kendel, I am 51 years old and today is Thursday, October 15th, 2020 and I am speaking to you from Euclid Ohio at my home in the name of my conversation partner is Mary Ellen Jordan. And this is the first time I've had the pleasure to meet her and looking forward to sharing this conversation is part of the one that's right.

00:37 Hi, my name is Mary Ellen Jordan. I am 49 years old today is October 15th, and I am coming to you from my work which is at st. Herman's in Ohio city and Cleveland and my partner is Christopher kendel, and he and I have just met.

01:09 Cable One Small

01:14 Chris why did you want to do this interview today?

01:18 Typically when I'm at work and I listen to NPR and I happened to hear on one of their station breaks about this and I thought it would be opportunity to possibly participate and strike up a conversation with somebody just to see what other perspectives that are out there.

01:46 And how about you? Why did why did you want to disturb you today?

01:53 I wanted to do this interview today for some of the same reasons that you shared just to find out how other people think what they're

02:04 What their opinions are also I feel as though if we could do more of these types of conversations with people that we don't know we could maybe he'll a little bit and not be so divided nation based on people.

02:32 So how about we have Chris ask this one first, then we'll just kind of switch off.

02:41 Just let me know real quick.

02:49 Okay for Mary Ellen and then moved to Cleveland in the late 90s living working and what became much more politically aware and active I am a social worker who has worked in end-of-life care for 17 years, and I'm about to embark on a new role and working with the homeless population in Cleveland with three cats and one bathroom. That sounds like a lot of fun.

03:38 I guess.

03:42 What does how did you like living and working in MPC?

03:48 It was great. It definitely kind of made me more.

03:57 Aware about National politics prior to that, you know, it was really just what I heard on TV or what I was studying in school and it really at that time in the 90s felt as though it was a pretty mixed coolant people all walks of life and and just a city that seems to me to love learning and and respect the Curiosity and

04:31 Yeah, that was one time. That was my work for you no more.

04:50 Okay, so I'm going to read Chris's bio.

04:56 I am a lifelong resident of Cleveland and oldest of five children. I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic School your high school prom graduation. I attended Cleveland State University Herndon VA and physical science. I was a devout Catholic and identified within the Catholic church and the events of 9/11. I became an agnostic and have become more moderate and now considered myself being a

05:28 So, can you tell me a little bit more about what that was like you kind of step away from your Catholicism and lean more towards being agnostic. Yeah, it was for me. It was pretty I struggled with it quite a bit. It wasn't like just like all of a sudden I believe completely. I grew quite a bit of Soul if you will, you know.

06:05 Talk to a therapist about it. I reach for my buddy who is was ordained to talk about crisis of faith and adult events within my bioworks Catalyst for me to come for more of a freethinker. If you will my biggest problem with with and not just to pick up the Catholic Church religion in general is the dogmatism with it believed that if we were to get back to more of the moral teachings of Jesus as far as Christianity dog ate the world would be a little bit better place, but I think once you get him to fall with like I said that and the

07:05 Hierarchy of the church in particular, you know we tend to forget what I think what the real name for the soul.

07:24 I've had similar struggles. So I respect that about and as such.

07:44 Chris has been the most influential person in your life. And what did that person teach you?

07:53 You know, that's a good question. I wish I could probably stay as far as how to treat your fellow know your fellow person. Love you, my father, you know, I've never heard him ever speak ill of anybody. We were growing up. We were he was he and my mother were very active in our Parish church and a lot of that.

08:30 You enter, you know, my father sacrificed five five children. Unfortunately, both my parents still still alive still married, but made a lot of lot of sacrifices and you know it.

08:51 Half the man he was I think I would I be doing pretty well.

09:00 Ellen um, how about some how about for you who is probably the most popular person in your life? What did

09:10 You know, this was actually a hard question for me to come up with an answer because I feel like there's been parts of different people throughout my life that have taught me things.

09:24 You're probably starting with my grandmother. She had a lot of loss in her life as a young woman and and she was just really kind of like lucky. You know, she was just very

09:38 You know, she she lived a fairly simple life. She wasn't fancy. You know, she was kind of a little bit more like a tomboy and my grandfather when she is fairly young and then she went on to have a she really her friendships meant a lot to her. She was close with her girlfriends and you know live the full life and I'm kind of like what you said about your father and my father would be, you know, another Rihanna parts of him. I try and emulate in that he's here. He's just a very kind person and tries to see value in everyone. And so I think you know this probably

10:22 Combination of the two of those people along with some other people that I've met in my work life.

10:36 So Chris who's been?

10:41 Sorry, that's okay.

10:54 Oh that.

10:56 If you could marry Elena people using your own words, what would you say?

11:08 You know, I was I was thinking about this earlier today, and if I had to kind of a sign of value, I mean, I'm a Democrat but

11:25 I would say my political view is to just take care of other people and you know social justice.

11:35 Basic

11:37 Basic rights that not everyone is afforded just because of maybe the zip code in which they grow up so it would be and there's this quote that that I like by Rumi who is the we are all just walking each other. And so I feel like if we could all kind of like what you were saying earlier Chris about you know, if we really did he act as though, you know, we were emulating, you know, Jesus and in all that he did. I mean he was friends with you know,

12:20 All kinds of people and and so I just try and I'm from that place of accepting people where they are.

12:32 So could you describe your personal political values Chris and I was buried right of Center pretty conservative and believe that that was the one.

12:56 True way to think and I never you know, I always hope that it's a company but different than being politically I kind of thing was time for me to graduate. We were standing in line waiting to you know, walk in the auditorium. We were one of the next in line was I gone through several science classes with and what was interesting we start up this conversation and we actually I think we did agree politically I found out they had similar taste.

13:54 Call I started to kind of let my you know, kind of had a little bit of a piffany and then as I've gotten older I think the biggest biggest change from being in my political values as I feel that I don't like the the divisiveness and the polarization we have right now, I think conversations like this with somebody or where do we do it in a way now that is if it diminishes the person that on the other side

14:38 You know too quick. I think we don't we don't engage in good faith argument. We want to attack the person personally, you know via at homonym vs. You know, trying to understand you know, what? Why do you why do you hold that position? And if they pull us look at that person as a person at Madden, so that's probably

15:14 Nowadays, I know what what what is evidence support said policy.

15:28 Oh, you know what is next door to me. So it's some yet. There's they have 15 minute prayers. So it should be over in a few minutes. But yeah, there's a door between us but I guess you can still here just trying to make sense of that. Okay, that's fine. That's why I kind of want to think of myself as in these days because I I want a really kind of see where the where the argument is and who makes the more persuasive argument I guess so

16:21 That's kind of where you know where I'm coming from.

16:27 And I don't personally I don't care if it if it comes from right or the left or whatever, you know, a better argument should win the day. That's that's my my

16:49 Well

16:52 Go ahead at 3.

16:57 I was just going to ask when it comes to specific issues. Do you feel that you lean one way or another so say it?

17:10 You know health care for all or the environment or pro-choice. Do you have a dependent if I'm not in?

17:23 One thing that I know I never really understood to like single single-issue voters so much more involved how the world Works whether repeating, you know, why pro-choice abortion issue weather be fun, you know Second Amendment, you know, I try and I try to try to really look at what the other or the other jet support so

18:06 Like climate change, for example, I mean, I don't know how far we can do by their what's what's causing of. I think it's I think my friend scientific of that. It's human human cause and but there are there different different perspectives that should be addressed. But I think all things would have to say that, you know things get relegated or simple sound bites. The play on are, you know are my remotes mm versus are our rationality, you know, so right away, like people say Well, if you know, you know all cool now you can put all these people out of work, but what about if we were to invest in Renewables and Technology

19:06 Isn't there two potential their Innovation Good Ole American innovation to come up with maybe cleaner way to to eat our own and power our vehicles and things like that, you know, so how about you know, how about you are there certain things that motivate cheap one way to know one way or the other or

19:35 I mean there are certainly some issues. I feel more strongly in and fashion about than others, but I will say one thing that

19:45 You're at a place that I'm trying to get to in terms of taking the emotion out of the emotion right away. And so I need to learn how to

20:02 Kind of look at both sides and and not you know, kind of keep the emotion at payroll bit something. I'm trying to get better about as I age. No sure and there's a there's a couple of books that really helped me in the last year that that I read one was by professor of moral psychology New York University Jonathan haidt he wrote a book called The Righteous Mind and it says the subtitle of which is why why are good people divided by religion and politics Professor height is probably a little more liberal-leaning. He's one of the keys at the Forefront of his field called moral psychology. And that's what it was a really eye-opening books and then the other one to red.

21:02 Just last year was find another professor. He teaches at Harvard Harvard Kennedy School of government. Are y'all so is a columnist is more conservative Laney, but he wrote a book last year called love your enemies really really help me to get me on the emotional part of trying to engage in difficult conversations, but he's pretty rational thinker he writes he usually you'll see some a erase Asian Lee for the Washington Post never stopped at every once in awhile right now on happiness during the Pandemic those two books has really helped me out quite a bit.

22:01 Thanks so much.

22:08 I remember from our conversation before this that you even considered for the left of the left like you're pretty far that way, right.

22:25 Can you say that again?

22:33 Well

22:36 Yeah, I mean I you know, I kind of joke that I am socialist bleeding but I just feel no way that our country takes care of some of the people that live in the margins versus versus how other countries the same. We're not doing a very good job of it my opinion and I mean there shouldn't be we shouldn't have people that literally live on the streets and have to kind of forage for food every day or water or and we should be able to have an education and and higher education.

23:21 To be available for everybody. And you know, I just I just think that as a country where we place our value is about how much money you have and kind of your social status VS who you are and what you believe in and what you stand for and

23:49 Yeah, I just think that.

23:52 It's it's it's more important to just

23:57 Look at the individual person and in everyone should be given the same the same chance in life. Just because you know, someone is is born into a family that maybe it's generational doesn't mean that they shouldn't have to fight their way out of where is someone who's born in two generations of well gets handed a lot of things a lot easier.

24:24 Yeah that really.

24:31 Yeah, kind of there certain aspects of where I agreed that. I was special one thing that has

24:40 Really become manifest is how we fight our dare. I say it not handling the pandemic, you know, it's it is really a brought in for the Forefront a lot of those inequities, you know, and here we are middle of October and it's what now, we're in the seventh month, you know, we shut down the state March 17th. I think it was and we've never I don't I don't really miss is where my frustration with my former part Republican party lies is that I don't think that the national response has been what what what we need.

25:35 I'm unfortunately you have and I and II and I believe firmly that certain certain things that the state should have to take the Forefront on but when you have a National Emergency in the form of a public health endemic messaging coming out of the White House has been just dare. I say it deplorable and Winston Churchill wants to reset and I'm not sure exactly what the context was but he says it's not good enough to do just what is you know that it's not enough to say we're doing our best we have to succeed at doing what is necessary and we have not we have not done that I think just before we entered this conversation. I saw that Cuyahoga county is now back in the red as far as and

26:35 Firmly believe that if we had a if we had a president and this and I don't care who it is. It could be, you know could be Republican and Democrat and independent, but if they would have just from the get-go

26:51 The messaging you and used the bully pulpit of the Oval Office talk to the American people in an honest manner. I think we could have really gotten ahead of this.

27:08 Yeah, I agree. And you know, it's unfortunate that that were in the position that we are right now and that were sliding backwards seems so first you ever do you ever feel misunderstood by people that have different leaves from yours?

27:27 Now that's a that's a very good question. And the answer to that is yes. I used to I used to you know be on social media and Facebook and about 3 months ago. I had to get off of Facebook because it was making me miserable and I would I would only a game you and I had my eye my only rule for using social media was that if I shared any information I always made sure it was from a verifiable official stores. You know, where will the weather be the New York Times Washington Post, you know?

28:13 Time magazine or do anything that was you know, I never never followed any pages that were you know, I'm the friend you were anything like that and I would sometimes to post something and ask a question cuz I think something that's one of the best ways that we learn from one. Another is not by offering you by offering question and sometimes people would just they were just engage in these awful like personal attacks, you know, and I just finally said, you know, this is not worth it anymore. And I deleted my my Facebook account and I I have to tell you I'm not even in the midst of this pandemic. I haven't been as

29:02 It's happy in a long time. So I just I just don't I don't like you no go right for the ad hominem attack. You don't they make all kinds of assumptions about who you are and I I just said I can't do it anymore. I can't do anymore and I'm not anybody's mind and you know, so cut that part out of out of my life. So how have you how about you? Have you ever been in a situation where you feel, you know, misunderstood by people that have you know, maybe a different different philosophy and beliefs than you and and if so how so

29:50 Yeah, I mean in fact in my own family with my brother who's my only is my only sibling and then some of my aunts and uncles and cousins who are you know, very strongly Conservative Christian conservative and I can't even like have a conversation with my brother because he automatically to start saying I'm a crazy left-liberal, you know, and just kind of uses the labels and and so I don't engage and sad because it's affected our relationship and

30:33 Because I think we both go to the emotion of it instead of just trying to understand another person's view, you know, but one thing I wanted to ask, is that okay?

30:48 How do you find in the last?

30:53 Oh you're so how is it been being a white middle-aged man?

31:01 I haven't really.

31:10 I haven't really had any blowback last you know, I I happen to work where I work my work to the city of Cleveland Heights and their Parks and Recreation Department for 29 years and Cleveland Heights has always prided himself on being more Progressive and in and Embraces diversity and I

31:43 You know that being a former conservative might sound a little funny Bible. I've always always been a champion of diversity cuz I think we should go back to instead of In God We Trust I think we need to go back to our original Note 4 model with the flurry birthstone on of many 1/4 strength in diversity and my boss who's younger than I am. He's an African-American male, but we have some of the he's also a political science major. So every once in awhile, we'll get together and we'll talk shop and we have some of the best and lightning conversations and you know, it's been really it's been a real pleasure and sometimes

32:36 What I will do especially in over the last year or so will you know the the the rise and the protests that have been going on with regard to enter social justice, but racial inequalities that still exist. He's more than willing to allow be a sounding board for me to ask what are some questions and he's very honest about it and we have you know, and it really, you know, it's been very, you know, very eye-opening for me to get as well. So, you know

33:23 My life has been probably not probably but I recognize that I don't know what to type in what the deal with certain aspects of our fellow citizens to do because of because of their you know their color or their gender or whatever. So thanks for sharing that with me and co-worker that you can kind of really get to the to the me to things about. You know, it's just curious if I just find it curious because I feel as though

34:03 I don't know. I just feel it. It's it's hard to be obviously, it's hard to be young black man in America right now. And I just was curious to know what it's like to be a you know, a white a white male right now, too. So thank you. He's a 2 years older than me to brothers and make nice ring Destino 10 years. So yeah, we were close and he we were

34:48 I would say we probably started to drift away after college when he started to become a little bit more conservative. And I mean you could go down the list of tissues and we are literally like on opposite sides of everything, you know, whether it's you know, he's you know, he's a big gun guy. He's a big, you know, no government in my life by person. He doesn't think that the pain he thinks the pandemic is not real, you know, so it's just yeah and and it's hard for me because I love him but I don't know how to communicate her reach their so again, I'm trying I'm definitely going to check.

35:37 Sounds good. I know can be pretty tough, but I can honestly tell you that it's it's the pandemic is is anything but not real we lost my mother-in-law a couple of weeks ago was 86 and he was in a living facility and in very good shape physically she did suffer from FTD frontotemporal dementia. But as soon as she went to the emergency room and was method and the pot positive diagnosis came in while she was gone for days. So and you know that kind kind of even makes me even more frustrated with you know, the fact that here we are in October and and and we seem to be going in the wrong direction.

36:35 So

36:37 But then, you know knowing that the election is I think just under three weeks away. How do you how do you feel that? We can come together after which we know if it's going to be a divisive election. I mean, let's just let's not even though you don't make any bones about that, What do you think we can do to come together?

37:00 I don't know. I'm really worried. I'm I mean regardless of who ends up winning the election. I think it's going to be

37:12 This could be pushed back on on either side and I'm just worried about you know, things becoming more divided and possibly violent in the midst of a pandemic that's getting worse with the bad economy. So we're doing something here at my work which is called a reverse right along and so it's bringing some police officers with some citizens and then some residents here together. So I wonder if if there was a way to facilitate something like that, you know on a neighborhood level or on a you know, some people from that you could sign up somewhere.

38:02 Little conversations. I remember after Tamir rice was killed a couple months after that. They had something like that in the Adele neighborhood where it was a group of silla Tater and like four or five people just kind of talking about you know, how it affected them. And so, you know, I don't know but I think

38:31 Just kind of being real with each other and and being respectful and caring more caring and and and hear each other out.

38:44 I don't know. What do you think? What do you think might help right. I do have some concerns some kind of echoing what you said, you know, I don't have in August. I don't have a you know, a magic wand. I don't know of any magic formula, but I I really hope that people can

39:07 You know try to

39:10 Not hold each other in so much contempt. I think that is really at the root of what divides us right now cuz if you can hold somebody in contempt and then the ability to take that lead to almost like looking at somebody as the other and then when you do that, it is a prepaid and you know, when we can't complete holding people in contempt or maybe you know disagreeing with somebody over legitimate thing is not the same thing, you know difference in policy was one thing but we should be able to debate and the better arguments that should hold sway. But if we come up come away, you know.

40:08 No hating the other side just simply because they disagree with us. We're going to be in for a long haul unfortunately.

40:21 So that is 40 minutes. Thank you so much.