Greg Brown, Allegra Ziegler Hunts, and NA NA

00:01 My name is Greg Brown. I'm 62 years old today's date is the 27th of February 2016. We're here at the Tech Museum of innovation and I'm the organizer founder of the Tech Challenge.

00:25 A 16 we're here at the Tech Museum in San Jose and I'm with my teammate and friend.

00:34 Am I Mary Ann Lynch? I'm 18. And today is February 27th 2016 for in the Tech Museum in San Jose, and I'm here talking with my friend from my team for the tech challenge.

00:51 Right. So do you want to tell us how the Tech Challenge got started and about the first one? Well the Tech Challenge got started 30 years ago. If you can imagine 30 years ago, and it really generated from an idea that I had. It was a little bit based on my childhood in a little bit based on what I did in college. I had the great Fortune of going to Stanford University and majoring in engineering and they had a type of engineering called product design. And in that program, they encourage you to learn a little bit about every type of engineering and to learn by doing. So it was we had to take classes in thermodynamics and all that. But we also got to build things and a lot of times the things we built to me where the most interesting part of the of the whole university experience because I

01:45 I would put way too much time into building my projects and I would lay awake at night thinking there's another something else I could try and then I would get up in the morning and try to do it before going to class. You know, you're in class. I'd be thinking about how to do this idea and it just really was really engaging and compelling for me and then when something worked I felt great about it. So after I graduate I thought wouldn't be great if other kids could do that too. And I looked at the science fair and I thought the science fair is pretty good, but it's not really it's not a team project. In fact in those days. They discouraged team projects and wasn't really Hands-On in the sense that my engineering training was so I suggested to a colleague here at the Tech Museum. I was just a volunteer at the tech at that time, but I suggested to the director of education at that time. Why don't we put this thing on for kids and do the same thing I used to do at Stanford except for

02:45 Little kids and she loved the idea. So we that's how it got started. The idea came about the First Tech Challenge. We did in conjunction with the science fair. It was held at the Santa Clara County Fairgrounds, which if you ever been there, it's pretty it's sort of a stable, you know, it's pretty run-down place.

03:06 And all they have is some broken-down wood tables at a giant room, but that's what we that's what we use and the challenge. The first challenge was to design a device that could start on one table cross over to another table cross a 3-foot cap and then wind up all on the second table like a giant inchworm, you know, it had to start a wooden table and end up on the other. It couldn't hop. It had to be on both tables at the same time and then go to the other table which sounds easy but was not that easy and we are hoping for hundreds of kids. We got nine nine kids under the first tech jobs more or less than three teams. I remember and they ought to each worked on their designs and they each showed up on the day of the challenge with the device and none of the devices worked, of course because we had no test trials or anything like that. They just showed up and gave it a shot. But I was so surprised.

04:06 Number 1 by how much the kids felt that they learned from that experience of all the teamwork and stuff and I was so gratified how thankful they were for this opportunity to do something that was so different from the regular school experience that I thought we've hit on something here. That could be that could be great. All we have to do is make it bigger. So we didn't look at the first one. Is it as a flop? We looked at it as just a rapid prototype and build from there.

04:41 Always a good start to things. How did how long did it take for it to really hit off and get to be I guess near the size. It is today. Usually if you do have a good idea you see some fast growth and then it kind of levels off and then you grow slowly after that. That's a typical curve that businesses follow, you know fast growth and then they think that's going to last forever. Of course, it doesn't but I would say within a couple years two or three years. We were we were getting hundreds of kids and then pretty soon thousands of the other thousand kids and now we have over 2,000 kids. So it's grown. In fact now we're kind of struggle because sometimes we wonder if we'll be able to find a place that's big enough to hold all those kids and we've gone from one day to two days and so forth. So it's ground pretty pretty dramatically over the years the other than the thing that really helped I think in the early years to get it growing more was to realize

05:41 That wasn't just about the kids the kids needed advisors and they needed support from teachers and they needed ongoing support during the design process. So we really made it much more than a one-day challenge, which it was on the first go-round. We made it into a, you know, a couple months and now there's teams. I mean as you guys will know from your team, there's teams has been almost all you're working on it now. So I think putting that level of extra support into the program really helped out at Blossom in those early years and I think our team death

06:20 It's good experience with knowing just how important an adviser is to the team. We would not be where we are today without our advisor Arnold. He's

06:31 Been amazing with teaching us Real Techniques how to do things how to use the tools just providing ideas someone to bounce things off of a different perspective tell me more about your advisor and not something I'm really interested in is how does how does he resist the temptation to do it for you which is some adults do so much of thing that he has as we have a lot of really cool gear now like last year. We had a box that held each bolt for the talent individually. He'll get us started and then go off and do his own projects so that he doesn't try and help us too much an idea. We should recommend that to all the advisor. I think one thing that it was really cool for me is recently working on this project because we're older and like so he'll be at work and

07:31 His wife will be there, but then we all know how to do everything and we can get our device going without him. Maybe having to call him every once in awhile and ask where everything is in his garage, but that we know competent enough to be able to put things together without having to be like guided through stuff sorted has been curious about that. So you learn what the challenge is. There you are. Now. What where how do you figure out? What's the first thing to do?

08:03 We're together.

08:03 The team a lot of our discussion center around food and meals so we'll just all be there together and will

08:12 Just talked about it starts bouncing around some ideas. Some things are completely crazy and won't work. But it makes it fun and I must say whenever ideas last year to make the service for the wind challenge challenges to pump water uphill using wind power and I was really convinced to that. It would be a good idea to train a rat treadmill and get some power going to it than we realize that of course you can have like practice. I can make a little fan that will like what's it called when you like and then bring back to life than Rush.

08:54 Maybe not throwing any idea that they're in joking around about what we think definitely wouldn't work and then coming to us an idea that things could work.

09:04 That is so much what you just described it so much of what the Engineering Process is all about because so often engineer, especially well trained Engineers. Unfortunately, don't do that there more they're like self-editing all the time. They know what will work and what won't work. So they they sometimes will bypass things that they know it won't work. But it but an idea like a rat is perfect because it's a provocation. It causes you to get outside your box and think more broadly so by ring bringing up stuff like that. You're really doing your team a favor, especially the members of your team who are more practical and if I felt thankful that won't work, but then you're challenged back to them is well, what would work that's that that stimulates and before you know it they have a a good idea.

09:52 It's that might they probably would have had if it if you had enough poked in a little bit with your idea. That's quite wonderful.

10:01 So what it what kinds of things have you done in the

10:06 In the production of your prototypes and stuff. Where are you? I'm I'm always interested to know if like have you had experience with shop tools before the Tech Challenge? What kind of new skills? Have you learned? You think as a result of being part of the Tech Challenge?

10:23 A lots of power tool use

10:26 It just our adviser has a lot of tools. He's into Construction and building things. So he's taught us lots of yum Carpenters tricks how to make sure that all the wood pieces are the same size how to use the different kinds of saws all the different impact drivers and drills.

10:47 A lot of tools a lot of tricks. Is there anybody on your team that you know, like do you have you taken any particular roles like somebody's in charge of their less afraid of the shop tools that somebody else or whatever sometimes but I think at this point we're all pretty confident with them in like this is cool to be happy there still always like Mortals. Like how can there be more types of thought so many thoughts but like this year were working with hot wire cutters and that's like totally new and different and just trying to find procedures to work with all these new tools is interesting about that is so wonderful and so important. I've just kind of a off the topic a little bit story but my daughter went to Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo, which is over there at their motto is learned by doing and she majored in architecture and I think was the first day she was there they sent her to the wood shop and started having her use these two

11:47 Size and stuff and I was horrified but I thought to myself here you are an engineer who's been promoting the tech challenge for 30 years and you're scared because your daughter is going in the shop because I really I didn't I did not do what I should have done is give her all that experience at home with those tools. And of course just like you guys she picked it up right away and learned all the safety and did a good job and before you know, it it's opened its open Windows into her life because now she knows with all those tools all those different saucer for and as an architect. She could really understand how people build things how construction work happens. Wish you wouldn't be able to do if she'd been denied all those experiences. So I think hopefully people are grateful for any opportunity that people have to master new skills. That sounds really good what you've done.

12:40 I thought otherwise, you know, what have you what's Smite things you've learned about teamwork and you know, the other the other skills collaboration challenges is that the four members of the team go to three different high schools and three of us play sports three of us are in drama Productions. Our schedules are conflicting and all over the place and there's our first year. We were very stuck on we all need to be here to meet. You know, it's a team thing and I think we learned that we can do we can be a team without all of us there. We can work in smaller groups and just being in the Define how to be a team without meeting everyone present all the time. And I think that's a really good skill that we've learned.

13:34 And then also learning the communication that comes along with that and being able to remember that everyone wasn't there the last meeting so you have to take the time at the beginning of the next meeting to catch everyone up on what you did and what you thought about it and see what they think of that instead of see what was reasonable and make sure that your your ideas were in conjunction with the rest of the team and also that they're not confused for the next one meeting and not able to help really

14:00 It's funny because you're talkin. I'm thinking of myself. Those are skills that we should be exhibiting ourselves on the organizing committee because we have meetings. Do we have planning meetings and stuff and and not everybody can go to Every meeting and then we launched right into the next meeting and sometimes skip that step or whatever. So it's kind of funny that it away a cool thing. Is that developing the next Tech Challenge is it? Is it Tech Challenge in itself, you know coming up with these ideas year after year is a is a

14:33 Is it challenged and so we have to approach it with the same sort of philosophy and approach that you guys take when it's time to think about the next challenge we brainstorm ideas like you do we come up with Oddball ones like you do we reject those like you do but we come up with Inspirations based on those and then as our next step.

14:57 We try to prototype them because if if I can't work with a room full of you know, senior scientists and Engineers from all over Silicon Valley. If we can't produce the kind of device, we're asking the students to do then there's there is some chance they won't be able to do it. I have to say most years even if we have trouble the students seem to have no trouble which makes me wonder if they could no more than they experienced Engineers do but it's a fact but still we have to prototype it and then off for the Prototype doesn't work and there we are but we keep going through the same cycles that you go through until our until we get to our input which is where you guys begin. So it's funny. It's a little bit of a it's the same process.

15:43 Two sounds like a lot of different design and iterations of working with different challenges and ideas. What sparked your interest in design.

15:53 Well, okay, this is another story. That's a little bit you probably laugh but

16:01 When I was in what we used to call Junior High which I guess is Middle School now, I had a science teacher who?

16:12 Delighted in helping students see that they were not as smart as they thought they were but he would do it in a good way. In other words. He was doing it to help you not to belittle you but he was just want to show you you know, what you have a lot more potential than you think you do. Even though you think you have a lot of potential if you have even more than that and I'm going to show you his name was Mister vasconcelos and every year he put on a tricycle competition as a race and the job was that you had to build or modify a tricycle.

16:49 And then he'd race you across the school grounds and he would participate that he had a souped-up. He never showed it to anybody in advance, but he always he lived on a farm and he had a welding machine and all this other stuff. So he always came with a massively souped-up tricycle. And so I showed up for mine and I done what I thought was a pretty interesting, you know modification cuz I was really tall so it wasn't easy for me to ride a tricycle. Anyway, we all get on our tricycles you do when they blow the whistle and he just sits there. He's kind of a loping along and we're all way out in front and he's like laughing at us and I think it was you laughing at us. And then of course at the tail end of the whole thing he zooms past all of us and easily. I mean everyone including me and I thought wow that is interesting but what really got me was right at that second when he was passing all of us it like in a flash it dawned on me.

17:49 I saw his machine. I saw I was better. What are you did differently I learned. I'm in almost instantly. I saw that's a good idea. I could use that that's a good idea. And as soon as I cross the finish line, my big goal was to go back and redesign my tricycle, even though the race was over. I was like gee whiz I'd like to do that again. And I thought you know if I was thinking about these experiences later and what would Inspire other kids when I was an adult trying to figure out what would Inspire kids to want to get involved in engineering? I thought if we gave Hansel and challenges like that tricycle race, they will have that same little flash of insight and that's motivating much more than me telling you, you know, you need to learn engineering because it's important to your future.

18:40 I think it's more motivating to say watch, you know, there's going to be other kids of people that do interesting things that you never thought of but you could have thought of them and if you work together, you will think of them and that's what your job is going to be in the future. So why not start now, I'm a truth that got me going and then of course the whole

19:01 You know, I was just

19:03 I have to say the Space Race, you know and all that kids at that time. If I was a really good boy. My dad would take me to the Goodwill and I could buy a record player for an alarm clock or something and come home and take it apart cuz I was so interested in how things work and even as an adult when other people on our block that buy bicycles for their kids for Christmas or whatever and they secretly bring them down to me and I'd put them together for him cuz I just enjoy putting stuffed putting bicycles together an Ikea furniture in anything so I knew right away as he ideas as a youngster and also as an adult that I was really captivated by the whole design it engineering world.

19:48 Am I actually ran a robotics lab for a while when I was an engineer, which was pretty cool in the early days of robots and a lot of kids would come and see it. And of course they're captivated by this before Star Wars. They were still captivated by robotic arms.

20:06 And I realized I was getting so much pleasure out of showing this equipment to these kids. Maybe that's what I should do for a living. And so then I want at the Tech Museum and worked 14 years doing that never got tired of it now. I'm still here as a volunteer, but I'm still never get tired of it.

20:27 I think we can relate with the inspiring teacher and showing us what we can do. There was an eighth grade. I don't know if you remember we had decided they were going to teach about parabolas and everyone was having some trouble in math with them. So just couldn't New Concept you're not graphing straight lines anymore.

20:49 So for science, they divided us into teams gave us a plank of wood some rope roll of tape some other odds and ends and said go find somewhere on campus and build a catapult and you have an hour and we'll see what you have at the end of it. And so from that we learned just be creative how to build things and then once we had a catapult built it was

21:24 Yo, can you omit something? Can you hit it? Can you launch? Okay, let's try let's track the lunch pass. Where is your projectile going and that led into the shape of a parabola and curves and it just got everyone from oh my God. I hate graphing to this is actually really cool and practical and look what we can do with this.

21:50 Yeah, and look at you still remembering it. How long ago was that or yeah for 5 years ago in your engineer young life. You still remember that vividly I think partly because it was Hands-On and partly because it was a chance for you to express your own creativity.

22:09 One thing we we talked about little bit before was a failure getting ready for this interview and I think

22:20 Sometimes when you look back at things that you only talk about the successes, but I know you guys I'm very interested for you to tell about this but this big failure you had what was it 2 years time last year what happened? So last year we're trying to make a building that would withstand this earthquake. And one thing that was really different for us last year was that we didn't really have a way to test the building Super Bowl at home cuz it wasn't really possible to build the same equipment without spending a lot of money. So we had our plan was to have the building sort of belly dance instead of her back and forth and put all the way on the bottom. But then so we took it to the Tech Museum all excited cuz it is sort of warts on our little Shake table that we moved their arms and flipped it on the thing and it would start shaking back and forth and as it was shaking all of a sudden we noticed that the clips we're starting to open up and the base was starting to come off of the platform as it was shaking and it kept shaking so much.

23:20 And it pulled it up and destroyed to fall over and you can see the person that adult from The Tech Challenge skip washing and then tried to catch it.

23:34 And that was how how much in advance of the Holy vent.

23:43 It was the last test trial before the challenge so a week or so then what did you do?

23:51 MC Home Depot run to that one of the guy wires on our building had broken with it and we realized okay. These aren't going to be strong enough.

24:02 So we had to get steel cables and

24:08 Redo our building another base plate. Yeah, we had to cuz like the hole in the bottom of plastic or something and I had snapped in half and everything. So it's half the clamps and come off bending the test. Rig fly. That's a No-No.

24:26 It wasn't strong enough, but you're but your failure turned into a success, right?

24:37 So we had to figure out like how we could reinforce the base plate and make it stronger and how to

24:42 Try to take some of the weight off the clamps that were keeping it on the building keeping it on the platform which were provided by the tech so you can just make them stronger and then so then we when we finally went to the event first words cuz we hadn't tested it on the real rig since it fell over and so then it started and we're watching it and all of a sudden it was belly dancing. It was like moving with the middle and not on the top and the child is very shocking and pretty happy. It worked. Well, my whole life is no

25:23 Spectacular failure isn't one of the awards at the Tech Challenge and it's when we've been giving since the very beginning and I think it it sets The Tech Challenge apart from a lot of other competition. In fact, we called it the Tech Challenge on purpose. We could have called it the tech competition or the tech contest or whatever but we felt like now it's a it's a challenge. It's the kids against the problem is not the kids against each other in my world in my mind up a perfect world would be if every team succeeds, you know, but not a hundred percent because then you don't really learned anything. But if every team succeeds 80% I'd be really happy and some kids can succeed 100% That's fine. But I don't want to pick out the winner. In fact, I'm the chief judge and I and I always Lobby for more prizes in more areas. What I look for is flashes of Brilliance, where kids do something wonderful and spectacular failure is at

26:23 Place where kids can have a flash of Brilliance or insight and for me every time I feel I try to think okay. I'm encouraging children to learn from failure. I'd I need to learn from failure myself. I can't always be perfect. And in fact the harder you try to be perfect the less likely it is to actually happen anyway, but one year it was the water Year you guys where did this challenge? It was a while ago was another water year were the job was there was his flow of water like a waterfall and you had to build a water wheel or something that would intercept that flow of water and wood pump water uphill so similar to that to the wind power one, but this was water power and it seemed like a great idea when we started.

27:12 Yet after we built the first version of the test rig one of my one of my longtime mentors and advisors on this program. Bob Grimm Who had who is a very experienced senior engineer from HP. Is he in his quiet way. He said well, Greg.

27:34 But you should try building a device yourself since you think this is so doable. So I went home and tried to build a device myself. And of course I was shocked that it not only did it not work it work it all.

27:47 And because it was a water-based challenge I had to do all my testing outdoors and I only had time at night because I was working so I was mainly Outdoors at night with water in the rain often trying to get my machine to work and I'm sick of this is a complete failure. So my mentor Bob he suggested that we get a Stanford Professor to from the hydrology Department, you know to look at it. So we get this this is from Germany or someplace. You don't quit essential professor and he showed up with the workshop for the tech and he is just shaking his head like, well, you know this you're trying to violate certain was a physics. It's just not going to happen and he recommended some little changes which we were able to make and we did it at the last minute as a little bit, you know.

28:34 A little bit of a nail biter before the challenge and we had introduced these changes but it made it so that it was more doable and that wouldn't be so frustrating to people and basically pulled it out because that became one of our best I think ever challenges it it had the lot of kids did pretty well no kids did perfectly on it, but they all

28:59 They learned so much about the laws of physics just like I learned so much about the laws of physics that year that it made it worthwhile. I think that it was a little bit of a tougher one and it had a second benefit was just that it had a great connection with real-world problems, you know getting water to villages in India and Africa and places like that is a huge problems mostly done by children and women are often. Do you know abducted while they're trying to get water plus it's hard work. And so this I was so gratified that the students were excited about working on it and then doubly gratified that we had pulled out this, you know, traumatic situation and converted it into a sort of a happy ending. So that's been an inspiration for me and future challenges that it makes it so I'm afraid if I'm seeing a difficulty at the beginning. I'm not as prone to giving up and more prone to just getting help and working my way around it.

29:56 So I think that's a great lesson that I've learned and that hopefully the kids like you guys are learning as you go through at 2.

30:09 What happened your throat challenge?

30:14 I think of the challenges.

30:18 The first one that we did the asteroids one might have been my favorite to actually build our device cuz that was our first year doing the challenge everything was new to us and we kind of went here's a sting. Okay. We need to get our eggs over there. We can't break them. Okay, let's throw them. They don't break.

30:47 Wait, what's your thing going to be and how are we going to throw them and we had a lot of just wow, there's a lot of problems that we need to solve to get through this and our first prototype was based pretty much on. Hey, that looks cool. Let's do it. Hey, look, there's empty gelato containers and foam. Let's put the eggs in packaging foam in gelato containers and then throw that do we need more containers but eats a lot.

31:28 I think that was my favorite problem. We really need to eat gelato.

31:36 That's a good that's a good problem to have. I'll tell you that. So is you were as you are doing all that?

31:44 You know, there's different steps that you go through. The brainstorming is one in the construction is another but there's also the journaling and and then getting ready for the for the test trials and all that. Well, how did you guys organize that work? And who did what parts and then other words, you know some of the logistic behind

32:06 Doing the whole project cuz it's not just about brainstorming writing and rapid prototyping. There's eventually have to make a presentation.

32:16 I think one thing that's helped us for the presentation aspect at least is that we all sort of know everything that's going on. So that the judges ask the questions we can answer them and we know what happened there and we remember it and everyone knows what was going on. Even if it was one person specialty, but because sometimes we all work together and then like last year we split into two teams in one team focused on one thing. I want to focus and another thing but even if they asked the wrong team member who was they would still be able to answer at least some of it and I think we've improved a lot with a journaling as well. Look at the beginning we had lots of back shearling to do rightly could be a while before I'm black. What if you do this meeting and it's like look at the pictures and yeah, we did that and then we'd write it up but this year like we're actually writing up the new meeting notes at the meeting or like the night after the meeting and that has really helped a lot.

33:06 I think for journaling technology has really helped us. We do almost nothing on paper except Neo maybe hand sketches of what we're doing almost everything. We type it up its Google Docs or all collaborating together online and it makes it a lot easier that we can work in all of us can work at the same time. We can work from any computer and it just helps keep us together and gives us more of a chance to know. I've got 10 minutes. Let me write up what we did yesterday.

33:41 How wonderful is that? I'll tell you in the First Tech Challenge that wasn't any email and I had a computer at work, but it had a little panties green and is just had green letters on it. You know, that was it and I thought that was cool. So you guys are pretty far ahead on that. I'm a I'm always interested to know about girls at the Tech Challenge because we were I think we were in the high 40% Now if a female participants will still in today's. Still unusual and fortunately for girls to be even close to represented as they should be so maybe talk a little bit about that what it's like to be a girl at the Tech Challenge and also what advice you would have four other girls

34:26 I think the at least for me probably for you to we came from now to school families wear.

34:36 Nothing was really expressed of oh, you're a girl. You shouldn't be doing that. Our school was very much everyone builds, you know, we had an elective on cooking. Everyone's going to learn to cook. It's not just the girls here was not the guys were going to be outside building things and playing sports. It was everyone gets to learn everything. So we had a very inclusive environment without the ideas of things are going to be limited with that and I think at least for me that's really carried through of I look at something and it's

35:12 I don't see a reason that it's oh you shouldn't do that because of who you are. It's just

35:18 You want to do it? Go ahead.

35:21 Yeah, I think I've been very lucky that way too. And it's almost takes me like a few times. Someone's been like. Oh, yeah, don't you hate it when people like to be like that. I didn't even realize that that was why I like he was treating me like I didn't consider weird too cuz we're like young as well and sometimes hard to tell like while you're treating all the teams like this or is it just because we're like girls that you need to like, we know that that but it said of interesting and I think just trying to keep like yeah, we did this and we have this in this is why we did this in over pretty sure that it's in the rules and everything and then just and I never like oh, okay. Thank you. I think that's what we're all striving for a world where this becomes a non-issue and Anon problem and people don't even think about it. And I think it's awesome that you're already basically be on that whole issue seems like from what you're saying. It sounds like it's just not an issue for you and your lives right now so far and that's wonderful. So it sounds like things are really getting better, which I

36:21 Because really I don't think the Tech Challenge could take credit for that change of the universe but it certainly is a great example of one of the many things is happening in the world to help us gender equity and all that and just to give doll kids no matter their socioeconomic status or whatever these chances. I want to share. It is something that move me. It's it happens to be a young girl who said it but every year we record little vignettes of kids talking about what the impact of the Tech Challenge was on their lives and always you see these very cute teams of kids standing in a row and their costumes and everything.

37:03 With their hats on or whatever their goggles and they and they take turns sharing sometimes very matter-of-fact you well, we learned about the engineering process that which is good. But this one little girl after all the other kids spoke. She happened to be the shortest of them off. She's probably a sixth grader or something all she said and I'll never forget but all she said is she looked at the sort of up at the ceiling and she paused and she said I see myself differently now.

37:33 And I got the chills from that. I thought she didn't say how she sees herself differently or why but just as she sees herself differently now and I thought how remarkable is that this experience, you know, these few months in her life, maybe have changed her life that now she sees herself as may be capable or she sees herself as an engineer or as she sees herself as a teacher a team player. You don't I don't know what she sees herself as but I just know that she sees herself differently and I think back on that little, you know 5 Second clip practically daily whenever I'm starting to worry about something I think well, maybe I should see myself differently and see everyone else differently to and if the Tech Challenge helps make that possible then I think it's these thirty years of been worth it.

38:26 I need the Tech Challenge definitely does that mean it's a good chance to do things that you wouldn't normally do see yourself in a different way so futures.

38:41 I think that looking at challenges it's not a God's that's hard. It's okay. That's interesting problem. How are we going to get around that?

38:53 And I don't live a life skills of Life learning how to build things and knowing your way around like a tool box or whatever, but also just like the teamwork and all the communication and teamwork skills are working with the same team for a while and then just starting out and figuring out how to approach a problem and work with people as you get to know each other. Do you have any advice for people going through the Challenger?

39:21 Well my first advice as they should beat you and listen to everything that you have to tell them because I think you guys are terrific role models for for kids everywhere. But I guess my advice would be don't give up be persistent don't base your whole self worth on immediate success be willing to try and if you can't do it yourself, that's cool be part of a team because we're all smarter when we work together and collaboration communication. Those skills are just as important as your math skills and everything else The Tech Challenge, I think in the Tech Museum are places where children can develop those skills. So my advice to kids is get out there do stuff be curious learn try participate in things like the Tech Challenge and then just job

40:11 Your lives will turn out fantastically just like you I think your lives well, so thank you so much for coming in today and sharing you've inspired me. Thank you. Thank you.