Karl Jennings and Rebecca Petersen

00:01 My name is Carl Jennings. I'm 51 years old today's date is Friday September 14th. 2018 location is Salt Lake City, Utah, and I'm here with my one step one small step partner, Rebecca.

00:19 Thank you. I'm Rebecca Peterson. I'm 44. And today's date is Friday September 14th 2018. This is a great day for me the location of Salt Lake City, Utah. And Carl is my new friend here at one step.

00:36 Okay. Well just start who has been the most influential person in your life. And what did they teach you if I'm thinking about people currently living it would be probably my mother people who have lived in the past would honestly have to be the Life of Christ and he has changed my life in every possible way and he's made possible my relationship with my mother because it began and was so broken for so long. So I've needed to find understanding and he's helped me do that.

01:14 Can you tell me a story? Well, will you answer the same question who spend the most influential person in your life?

01:27 Hard questions is because it's hard to pair it down, but

01:33 Outside of my immediate family. I would say a gentleman named Bob Carol. He was professor in California and ran the the skeptic's dictionary website and I started praising that back when the web was brand new and it really let me a lot of critical thinking tools that I was needing at the time. Is that real transition time for me and what became what came from that? Well, I was transitioning from having been raised active LDS conservative-leaning.

02:15 And coming out to myself as gay at the time and basically

02:22 Cancel a defying my bully my agnosticism atheism for want of a better word, I guess.

02:31 So that was very important resource in a very pivotal time in my life. And I think that if I were to pinpoint a major change, it would be right about that time when I discovered his writings and followed that and got involved with that and so where are you now?

02:50 So right now I'm still gay still atheist, but I'm very very liberal leaning in a way. I think I've always been fairly liberal-leaning, but I think I catch that in conservative terms growing up because my parents were

03:08 More conservative in some ways. I don't know. It's they don't really have dinner with them all and they weren't super political except vocally. They didn't really get active politically that they have opinions course.

03:24 So is there something that you would want to pass on to other people from what you've learned?

03:30 That's a lot of years of learning.

03:34 Yeah, what would you want to pass on what I would want to pass on I guess is that it's important to feel comfortable in believing based on your own experiences and not relying too heavily on other people's discoveries are other people's opinions.

03:53 Because I think we can run into a lot of error for just living the way we've been taught.

03:58 It's beautiful.

04:08 Came across as name of

04:10 I forgot Bob Harrell said perhaps what was the first information you found about this guy? If you could look at Rebecca and share with her, so I am so is the early days of the way up. There wasn't a whole lot of content out there. So I was searching searching the web way back in the day and I came across the skeptic's dictionary and it had information. I've always been I've always had an active imagination. I've always been kind of interested in all kinds of weird tales and spooky stuff in and I think it was an entry on UFOs are Bigfoot or something like that and I just liked the way he approached it debunking a lot of that. Do you know pointing out the reasons to be skeptical of those kinds of things and oddly enough? He also had an entry on God.

05:06 And it was from a very skeptical standpoint and it was

05:14 It was reading that that kind of solidified my my thinking knowing that I think for the first time somebody that he's into like I was coming to respect I was able to actually feel almost permission to believe the things that I was believing. I don't think that I that it changed my beliefs but so much has helped me validate them.

05:38 So you felt okay. So how what did you do with the Discord? I'm just wondering because there's plenty plenty of Discord in my own family. How did you deal with that Discord with your

05:52 Family structure versus what you now choose to play. What do you have you bridge that Gap?

06:05 I'm the only professed atheist in my household most of my family still active LDS varying degrees of activity, but they identify is Mormon.

06:16 My

06:19 My family is kind of broken up that my parents had a really rough marriage that lasted far too long, and I'm sorry, but it's really not a lot of hard and

06:35 Anyway, so I have I didn't really have a lot of conflict by then. I was living on my own doing my own thing anyway, and my parents but neither of my parents have been very

06:48 They've never expressed a lot of outward concern about my choices philosophically because I think I don't know whether I don't know all the reasons. I've just come to assume that's because they know that I think things through pretty thoroughly and let me be me for the most part. It does make a wedge a little bit between me and the extended family.

07:11 Brothers and sisters I think because a lot of their life so revolves around the LDS church and Mormon Milestones like baptisms. And yeah.

07:26 Sometimes participation in those things is awkward. Okay.

07:33 Okay. Enough.

07:37 Oh, I'm just I'm I'm thinking out loud and I asked that question because when my brother and I came out and made changes and he's gay now. He's married and has he came out having been raised in LDS church. There was for many years there was a big rift and they were awkward instances in a no circumstances.

08:03 But one of the things our families found is that and one of the things we remind each other when things get really tough for tight or there's a hard conversations. It's that we remind each other. We love each other more than any problem. Either anyone of us individually or collectively can experience our love transcends what we have in this place of difficulty and so are acceptances never in question. We might need to take time and back off and think things through differently. We might have to approach a situation differently and we might need to have several more conversations that might take long. Of time to actually have but we never let that

08:50 I'm in between our relationship or the love that we have for each other. And so that's been very very important for me. My brother is one of them. Well, he's 26 children and he's my only brother and so for me I just was in love with him as a little girl and looked up to him from the time. I was busy and I'm still in love with him. He is just one of my dearest friends.

09:18 So I hope that

09:21 In time maybe you can have experiences like that with your family as well so that there doesn't have to be a rift anymore cuz to me, it's it's a heartbreak when things aren't right in my family and that's been really difficult for me. So I would hope that that would be bridged eventually for you.

09:45 I don't want to give up the wrong impression though. I mean, it's not like

09:50 Do you think that you're assuming similarities there and their Maybe?

10:04 I guess they're not easily distilled. I'm so

10:08 A simplified

10:11 Rebecca Youmans

10:14 Something about having had a rift with your mother that was Bridge through a relationship you formed with the teachings or the person of Christ. That's something you feel comfortable talking more about absolutely so just a little background for my family history. I was the fifth of I am the fifth of six children and my mother was a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So she was trying to learn how to be a mother trying to learn how to live a faith. She had recently chosen to embrace and a God. She was just barely getting to know in a brand new way.

10:59 Which was really impactful and that single sentence has changed a lot of things in her life because she's still getting to know God and I'm much better way.

11:12 But with that my parents try to raise us and stumble into lots of walls and didn't learn how to love each other or care for us is a family or as children and it became a very neglectful.

11:28 Abusive home and my parents divorced. My dad was mostly gone from the home the majority, you know, six out of seven days out of the week. He was not present and sightseeing for 2 or 3 hours a week and loved my time with him but was extremely Limited in that was part of the strain that was put on their marriage so fast forward a few years. My family was dysfunctional enough that I needed outside support just for basic needs and so I threw my mother found a family who didn't have children and their names are Linda and Todd Helene and they have been my foster parents since the time I was thirteen they've taken care of me. We we've ridden horses shown horses travel across the country just shared vacations everything that you would normally do with your family. That's what they did. Pick me up from school every

12:28 Friday drop me off back to school Monday morning and then during the interim Monday through Thursday. I had to live with my family as a broken very dysfunctional family and my mom became very violent with

12:44 Her anger. She really has had a life driven by anger. And that was very and fear. I was very very difficult to grow up with and so I learned how to be very much. You don't under the covers just quiet get the get the job done get the good grades just do everything so that I could just be free for my foster family on the weekend or on vacation time served during the summer than I could go back with them.

13:16 So, you know fast forward again my senior year of high school my mom because of her instability economically and without a real clear aim in life after their divorce. We moved at least once a year and the final move that I made with her was to Portland Oregon which was a fabulous move in the end and it was there. I had to make some decisions really clearly if I was going to choose to continue to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or not. And so I had spent time on my own the gospel wasn't Jesus Christ wasn't really taught in my home from the time I was younger and so if I wanted to learn it, I had to learn it on my own. So I spent a lot of time in the scriptures a lot of time praying a lot of time studying and I gave my own personal testimony of my own witness the

14:16 And that was when I was 15, and by the time I was 17 and moving to Portland, I had to make a choice if I would continue this knowing that there would be opposition and that I wouldn't be one of the majority anymore.

14:32 Or if I would go with the flow and enjoying the majority, but for me, I couldn't turn my back on Christ because I knew he'd never turned his back on me.

14:41 And

14:43 So I embraced everything that that meant this being a member of this church and I went all-in and that was the best choice of the friends that I met the support. I got they weren't even LDS, but they were so supportive of my choices to not drink to not smoke to do all these things and even when I don't get asked out to prom I have to clarify I don't drink I don't smoke. You can't take me to that kind of party. Will you keep it clean for me yet? I will okay, I'll go you know, those kind of conversations had to happen and so is very grateful for that. In the meantime my I'm still living with my mom.

15:26 And whatever her whim is at the time, that's what she lived by and so she tried different faiths like Faith after Faith after Faith after faith and different practices different healing modalities and just you name it. She's been there and she's tried it.

15:44 And

15:47 During all that time Christ became my anchor so when I wanted to understand what forgiveness was I had to go back and ReDiscover that on my own not from what it felt like with my mom, but what that really meant?

16:03 So few years later I get married have kids.

16:08 And things aren't going well in my own marriage.

16:13 I stopped my think what in the world have I done? How am I supposed to live the gospel? How do I have forgiveness when I feel like I'm at war with the man I live with this isn't right. I know this isn't how it's supposed to be. So again, I got to revisit what forgiveness really meant and I got to understand the healing power that came and I can't stay this.

16:38 True words, but what I found when I was able to take the burdens or the hurt or the pain or Agony or distrust or whatever was wrong in my life in my heart when I could take all of that and lay it at the feet of the savior.

16:56 The lifting and the lightning that that took not that it relieved anyone else who has wronged me from their responsibilities.

17:04 That's not what forgiveness is but enabled me delay my pain somewhere where God knew what to do with that. And then once I could do that, then I could step back and look at myself and say, okay, what do I need to do about myself instead of blaming other people are holding grudges. I could take responsibility and accountability from me and what I done

17:29 I'm through this experience that was life changing my mother then.

17:40 We graduated from college. My mother was in and out of our home living with us or US with her but part way through my husband's career.

17:50 I found I needed a place to move to immediately because his job where he was at was only going to be another three months and we needed to transition back to Utah. So I moved into my mother's home. And that was almost 16 years ago and I have been living in my mother's home ever since now that's bizarre, but it has been a miracle.

18:16 It has been profoundly difficult because my mother is volatile. She's unfair she blames. She's a victim. She's like the world's best pick them and then I'm within the last 7 years. She started struggling with dementia, and I know my mother's primary caretaker and she has full-blown Alzheimer's and to what does evolution of this woman?

18:43 I wish every person could see how beautiful Alzheimer's can be.

18:48 My father died from Alzheimer's since on February 16th 2016 and I was able to heal my relationship with him and spend at least one day every week for the last three years that he was alive. We had been working on a relationship much much much much longer.

19:09 But that became a pivotal turning point for our relationship and healing in our family among siblings and with him and then again to have this occur a second time with my mom has been profound. So to give you an example example and then oh, okay. So here's an example of what it's like to live with my mom today.

19:38 We I've been listening to her since June. She hasn't been driving. She's lost her privileges to drive and since June she's been telling me she feels like she's a prisoner in her home. So we have neighbors come in every week and take her out on trips to go shopping the, you know, go to exercise with her. They do different things.

19:57 And this last week we were running errands. We're out of the house for 4 hours. We've been grocery shopping. We've been gone to the doctors for her. Get back home. We drive in the driveway and she says I got to get out of here. I've got to call my neighbor. I've got to call Janie. She's got to take me out. I hate being in my home and I'm like, why do you need to call Jamie will because I don't want to stay here. I hate feeling like a prisoner and I don't have any other friends only Jenny will show up.

20:28 And I stopped for a minute right there in the driveway didn't really even park the car and I said Mom I want you to think about what you just said.

20:36 You just said that you feel like a prisoner in your own home and we've been gone for 4 hours and you'll go out every single day with me. You're not a prisoner in your own home and you have neighbors who come not because they're assigned to you not because they have to but because they love you and you have neighbors every single week. You have three or four who come and they take you shopping they take you walking they take you to exercise or art classes. They take you places they're spending time with you three and four hours at a time because they love you. How could you say you only have one friend?

21:13 I said this isn't okay. I said if you have enough cognitive ability to still do choose your own groceries and you do

21:23 Then you have the ability to choose what you think.

21:27 And I'd invite you to change what you're thinking because right now you're choosing to be a victim in your own home and you're not you're not a prisoner. No one's keeping you here. You can go for a walk by yourself. You can walk to the store. It's close enough and you have lots of friends.

21:46 But those are old stories you've had your whole life and I'd invite you to change them get a different shopping list about friends choose a different shopping list of thoughts about what your home is.

22:00 Because if you can choose this you can choose your thoughts.

22:04 And I was silent after that and my mom.

22:09 Quietly got up, and she didn't have to she usually doesn't ever help me carry in groceries and I unloaded my kids from the car and start carry my groceries in and by the time I made it out for the second round trip. My mom was carrying in bags of groceries.

22:25 And that's done to me. And so every day I find Opportunities where I'm given an opportunity to live a principle and to teach a principle and I see my mom choosing to change and that heals our relationship in a way that I couldn't ever have imagined this disease.

22:46 Could you

22:50 What is that story sort of stir up any memories with you about your own life or any associations?

23:02 I guess to the point of the one small step so my I can appreciate the story as you've expressed it and I totally respect your you're the expert of your life and your feelings and so

23:18 But I must say that for me when I hear these I parsed that through my own experience. I know that you rely a lot on your belief in Jesus as a savior and and interpret a lot through that lens for myself. I don't really see that not.

23:43 Not in that poor me. I wish I had kind of way but in my life and my family's had issues my but I was active LDS from the beginning. I I went to the primary I went to you know, all of the young men's activities and you know, which was a priesthood holder. I went on a mission to Brazil wanted desperately to believe that it was true. I never really felt.

24:11 Anything that I could pin on other than as a witness other than my own wishful thinking I mean, I had warm fuzzies about things that make me warm and fuzzy that still may be warm and fuzzy, but that doesn't mean that they come from any Supernatural placed to me, but I

24:35 When I Mission as I said and things just weren't making sense to me in the way that they should be if

24:44 The church was true.

24:47 And then being gay coming to terms with that was a really difficult thing for me because the church at the time that I was

24:56 Coming to terms with it myself was very very gently anti-gay.

25:04 Taught that there was no such thing as a gay person. They were just straight people who were tempted by this particular sin heard words like Abomination and I heard people talk from the pulpit that they'd rather their children were killed than to be gay.

25:21 So it became so there's a lot of internalized self-hatred and not wanting to be this and a lot of prayer for moments trying to have it taken away from me and all of that and

25:35 My spiritual crisis came to to ahead where you know, I'd reached a point where I needed. I needed to make a change in my Paradigm. I need a paradigm shift. I'll say this from this point maybe back then I wasn't thinking in that terms. I thought I need to not be gay or I'm going to kill myself and I prayed and fasted. I have done everything I could to try and resolve this situation as I saw it and

26:04 The closest thing I can ever say in my life that I got to a spiritual witness was a pretty deeply profound feeling that I'm okay who I am is okay, and maybe the church is not true. So what you know, it doesn't change reality. It's just another bit of information I can I can be who I want to be.

26:32 And I've lived my life on that principle ever since to me philosophically that message very well with existentialist thought that I am who I am and my life has been discovering who I am and I haven't needed an outside Creed to tell me who I need to be.

26:54 And it was a very short trip from accepting deposit the possibility of the Mormon church not being strictly true to pretty much extending that to Christianity and religion in general because there aren't that many philosophical Stones. You can throw at the LDS church that don't break Christian windows in general.

27:12 But

27:16 So that was my experience and I don't see Christ in that and I and I'm deeply aware that my experience can be interpreted on a Christian level. I've heard it from a lot of people but the point is it's my experience not theirs and I just don't believe God works in the way that people think your professed to me that he works based on my experiences.

27:46 So that's where to where I'm coming from and that I hesitate to.

27:53 To expand that into your round because that's your experience and I don't have a right to to tarnish that or change that in anyway, not that I think I could literally no one in even weather supposed to or not. I just I don't think that I can cuz it's not my authority to talk about your experiences of your experiences just as mine are and I would

28:18 Offer you the same, you know benefit of the doubt as I would hope that I would receive for interpreting. My own experiences in the bottom line is if God is trying to communicate communicate anything to us if we're misunderstanding. It's I'm comfortable saying that it's his fault because he's the perfect individual with the perfect skills in communication and he knows me if he exists better than anything. So if I'm misinterpreting the things I'm hearing

28:47 I think he can take the burden on that one. Yeah, one of the things that's been really beautiful for me with my brother specifically through his journey has been watching him. Obviously. He's excommunicated from the LDS church at this point, but watching his faith grow again. There was a woman named Edith who changed my life and I only met her once she was maybe 71 when my brother met her.

29:22 And he was Hardcore and everything. You shouldn't be into on top of his gay lifestyle and really living a rough life and Edith. He was invited to eat its home and Edith bed and a tire table full of men and they were all gay and she served him dinner. Like they were all her boys and all her sons and the next week, went back again. My brother went back to eat us out and there again Sunday dinner to all of these men.

29:59 And from Edith, he learned one simple lesson they were talking and he said Edith. Why do you do this? Some of us are okay with being gay and some of us aren't some of us hate the church some of us don't we're all in different places. Why do you keep doing this?

30:18 Some of the things we say and some of the things we talked about must be very hurtful for you. Why do you have us back and eat it just smile and said Connor, I believe and I have faith that it's just simple enough to believe the Christ can heal anything. I want it's time. We're all going to be healed from everything.

30:41 And I looked at that perspective and I thought it wasn't her place to judge my brother and she didn't.

30:47 It was her opportunity to love though, and she did and I learned from her that I can take that approach with every person. I meet I don't need to be anybody's church. God never asked me to do that. Nobody has I hope no title of authority like what you said, but it is my opportunity to love you. Let you know that I think you're important that I think your precious the way you are you add mic to the world you bring value to the world you help improve other people's life. You give encouragement everyday through your profession as a personal human being and to me I think there's value in that that's what we can do for each other. We don't have to get stuck on the label. We don't have to get stuck on an experience. We can just acknowledge and love each other for where we are or who we are.

31:44 I appreciate that sentiment.

31:50 And it's difficult to respond to because a lot of the things are going through my head will probably sound uncharitable extent.

32:01 And I don't want to put words in your mouth. But cuz some of the things that trigger me are the ideas of I mean, I'm sure the woman that's providing these meals. I don't even question that act. I think that's a wonderful thing and she has her reasons and motives. That's great.

32:14 Would I have partaken of that? I don't know. It depends on what my individual experiences that would have been. It's hard to say one thing that ping this me when you you talked about healing and I think that one of the things is very triggering for a lot of people who struggle with their sexuality in terms of religion is this idea of acceptance because something's going to be healed in you are changed in you and it seems like

32:44 That's still.

32:47 Couches something that's fundamentally part of who I am as a defect.

32:54 And while it may be wonderful for someone to say they love you. Anyway, that's deeply deeply hurtful because the anyway is that implication that there's something wrong.

33:12 On some level with who I am or what I am.

33:19 And that makes the conversation is very difficult because a lot of people I know a lot of my colleagues friends in the community have a hard time breaking religious subjects at all because of the perceived condescension in a lot of the attitudes, even the charitable attitudes. It's and it's difficult because a lot of people reach out feeling that they're doing good by reaching out. But sometimes the motives are questionable. They're reaching out to fix this problem.

33:55 On my end and I don't have a problem. You know, if I've been very happy with my philosophy with my life. I have a lot of Joy my husband of two years married 15 years together and let's remember that the only reason it's only 2 years married. His cousin couldn't recently

34:17 We have a wonderful life together as is we don't need.

34:22 Any fundamental changes in who we are we don't need.

34:27 Someone praying for us or wishing that this burden would be taken from us and I'm not putting all this on you. It's things that I've heard from well-meaning religious individuals.

34:41 And that sort of one of the things that I'd like to get across cuz it's comes across as very disingenuous some of the love. It's I'm going to love you until you've become something. I can really love to start a how that feels I'm sorry. I didn't realize I had I had the

35:01 That I had projected or try to express my love in a way that you felt like there were strings attached because there aren't you get to be who you are. I realized as I listened to you and I shouldn't have expected that you would be where my brother is in terms of our understanding of one another one of the things that I have struggled with deeply is my own imperfection. My mother is a perfectionist and therefore you're either all good or all bad. And since you don't measure up, you're all bad and it didn't matter how good I was didn't matter how beautiful I am or a talented it didn't matter because I was never good enough for her and so my brother's grown up with the same mother and sleep had a lot of the same issues. So for us to be able to get to the point where we realize if God wanted me to have a perfect body or my mother to have a perfect brain or my whoever

36:00 Any person in the world was made imperfect on purpose by the same God so my brother and I have had long conversations about our perfect imperfections. My love didn't that they now have a son with that in it. So but my brother and I have been talking about this for a long time because it comes down to the core of who we are if we needed more.

36:24 We would have been given more but the reality is we're given what we're given and then asked in my opinion. Just learn from it and expand it and be the best that we can with what we have available today and then tomorrow we might learn some new piece of information and we add that information to the dialogue to the story to the understanding and then once we have that we can move forward and so it's this process of

36:56 Becoming our best selves is not that I've arrived but he's arrived. It's that together. We're growing and learning as the

37:07 What experience I had this week? I realized just on this very line. I had my phone turned on I read it to you. But one of the things I learned was it's an important for me to acknowledge all of the good that I do just as the same as it would be important for me to acknowledge all the good that any other person does and religious terms. We would call it pride. If I would hold a compliment from someone that would be pried. It would be true. Love to say you did this. Well, thank you for doing that. I'm glad that you were here that would be true that would be acknowledgement of who they are and what they contribute and likewise. It has been a lesson for me to literally learn how to do that to myself because I've been withholding that for so long. I've been withholding love for myself, but really to me to learn to love others and to love myself to acknowledge the good we're both contributing is important because that's keeping that second,

38:07 Love thy neighbor as thyself and then part of that trip is to then turn around and think Heavenly Father. Heavenly father is the one who gave me a body with a voice. He's the one who gave me a family that I have fought for my family have 10 children and nine of them are living we have worked so hard to bring them here to the 3rd and we love everyone and they're all completely different.

38:37 But if I hadn't had those experiences

38:40 And I couldn't acknowledge that he has been the one God is the one who has brought all these blessings to my life. I couldn't have created that.

38:49 I would then be not keeping the first commandment which was to love God with all my heart might mind and strength.

38:55 So I'd like to a minute. I'd like to just take that opportunity to thank you for participating in this but also to clarify that much of what I said was not directed at you personally. So you don't need to apologize to me in the least. I was expressing what I was expressing by way of explanation of where I'm coming from and why certain things

39:18 May not be received in the spirit their intended because not knowing you and you don't know me much as you might want to feel that you do. We don't really know each other so I don't even know where you live.

39:34 So when you say things like I know you're this in this in this that's rings has been since you missed cuz you really don't know you don't know anything about me I am an LCSW, I'm a therapist but I need to the worst therapist in the world I don't have it and that's that's what I find.

39:55 I guess.

39:59 I'm trying not to be rude. I'm trying not to say something. That sounds rude to me but it sounds disingenuous. It sounds like words that are pretty but don't really have any effect in your real meaning and that's what I get a lot out of.

40:13 Christian. Because it doesn't seem like it really doesn't seem like it addresses reality addresses what they would like reality to be

40:22 I'll leave it at that. Okay. Well, thank you for your time. I I hope that someday you could see me in action because I backup my words with action. I love God and I love my family. And if I saw you on the street and you needed help, I would help you and to me that love and ironically I agree with you. I feel the same way. I would help you if I thought of you but that doesn't come from any Christian ideal for me. I think I've been I think we're probably very much in the same place.

40:57 But from different sources.

41:00 I love it. Thank you.