Dealing with social anxiety in a college setting

00:00 Okay. All right, got it. So I'm Eileen Ball, and I'm about to talk with Rachel Katcoff And today is December 4th. Cat cough.

00:14 Sorry.

00:15 And it's the 4th at like 4:00. Ish. And I'm in Northampton. And you're in Amherst right now, right?

00:25 Yeah, right now I'm in Amherst.

00:27 Yeah. And so I'm a town or two away. And Rachel's going to tell us wonderful stories about her early and later life. What any of those questions appeal to you about?

00:45 Yeah, I mean, I could definitely just talk about, you know, what it was like growing up in general in my neighborhood.

00:51 Great.

00:53 Yeah. I think we talked about this earlier, but the main problem that I had with at least my young childhood is that I don't. I can't really think of any specific stories just because something that my. My town really lacked was a sense of community. Or at least, I don't know. I remember always feeling really jealous of other streets in the town because it seemed like a lot of other people did have that kind of community. You know, people would have block parties. It seemed like all the neighbors knew each other. But that definitely wasn't the case. On my street. I live pretty much. My house is pretty much on a highway. So it's not really like people definitely walk their dogs and, you know, take walks around my. My street since it's right next to Main Street. But it's not really the type where you like, casually walk around or anything like that.

01:53 What highway is it by? 93.

01:56 Not 100% sure of the number, but I think that's correct. Yeah. So because of that, I've, you know, I grew up with the sound of just passing cars and, you know, horns and all that. And it was something that I didn't realize wasn't normal until I got older and I started having people over, friends over, and they would say, oh, like, oh, it's, it's very loud and I can't believe you can sleep in these positions. It's very loud. But it was something that I never really noticed before.

02:32 Yeah.

02:35 But, yeah, I never really felt like I had a sense of community, at least not on my street. And that kind of extended into school activities. And I think that's why when I was younger, I felt like I didn't really have a passion for anything, which is something that I really regret now because I feel like when I was younger I did dance. And I remember I did it from a very young age. I did ballet points, tap, most, most genres. But I never really I love doing it, I really enjoy doing it, but I never really had a passion for it. And I think a big part of that was that I never really felt like I had a sense of community in my studio where. And there was no, this isn't anybody's fault. I'm not shaming anybody, obviously, but it's. I don't know, I think because I missed. Not that. And this isn't advice that I would ever tell anyone. This isn't anything I would ever tell anyone, because it's not. It's not always true. But when I was little, you know, I was never really able to incorporate. Incorporate myself into the sense of community that all of the other girls in the studio had. So because of that, that just kind of stuck with me until the end of my career at that studio. So I think because of that, I started to dread going to dance practice. I just kind of saw it as a place where I would move around by myself, even if I was with a group of people. So that was never really something that I had a passion for. And I, because of that, I never really had the motivation to continue doing it when I went to college.

04:32 Yes, yes.

04:33 And, you know, it pretty much exact same thing with after school activities where, yes, there was some stuff that I did try out, but I, I never, I never had the motivation to try out different things until near the end of high school. And by then everybody had their sense of community. And it's very hard to put yourself into that, especially in the high school setting, because I, and I can't speak for other people's high schools, but at least for mine, I think people were a little bit more close off with their groups. So if you were a newer person, it was very hard to find your place.

05:15 Did you move there later? Are you lived in the same house, same neighborhood growing up?

05:22 Yeah, I lived in a different town when I was one, but I don't really count that. So pretty much my entire life I've lived in my town. So that was something that I always, you know, didn't look too fondly on. And I think when I. And I would. I wouldn't say that I dread going back to my hometown at all. Um, because at the end of the day, I do have a group of friends that I love and I have my family there and my cat. Um, and that's where, you know, all my childhood memories are. But I think because of those kinds of memories where I never was able to find my sense of community, I do, I don't necessarily look fondly on my hometown because it just kind of reminds me of that and how I was never able to do what seemingly all the other people in my community were able to do.

06:18 So interesting when you say seemingly, because we never really know, do we, what life?

06:24 I was really close to saying. I was really close saying the sense of community that everybody else had, but that's not. That's not necessarily true. And I want to speak for other people because this is just my own personal experience. But also, that made my experience in town sound very, very negative. But, you know, I did have a group of friends who I love very much.

06:49 How did you meet them, Rachel? Where. How did they come into your life? Are they a group of friends that are friends with one another, or is it people from different clusters or.

07:01 They were all people that were friends with one another. It started off with one of my very good friends who I met when I was probably. I remember it was right before I went into middle school, went to an event together. That's how I met her. And she had a group of friends from elementary school who she introduced me to. And then I just kind of. And then I just kind of became part of their group. And that was my group throughout middle school and high school.

07:30 And they're still in your life?

07:32 Yeah, they're still in my life. But it's definitely interesting to see how, you know, it's. Back then, we saw each other every single day. And because I lacked community everywhere else, it was something that I very, very heavily depended on. And it's. It's definitely interesting to see how now that we're off in college, you know, everybody has their own separate lives, their separate interests, and they're completely separate directions of life that they're going in that, I don't know, didn't really exist when we were in school together. Like. Yeah, I don't know. It's just interesting how much things can change.

08:19 What are some things that. So you. You're moving towards psychology and was it in. What was the other part?

08:28 I'm a psychology and public health major.

08:30 Public health. Right, right. Oh, just like this course. Right, right. What are some of the directions other close friends took? Like, what. What are other people studying? Anyone else studying psychology of that group? You know, I'm just curious.

08:52 Actually, out of my group from back home, I don't think anybody went for psychology, which is kind of surprising because it's a really popular thing that people study. One of my best friends, she's a computer science. There's people in my Group who went to computer science, creative writing, nutrition, but just not psychology, everything else. So.

09:20 Yeah, yeah. Sounds very diverse, the choices.

09:26 Right. And in a sense, I. Again, even though I like that sense of community back then elsewhere, I really appreciated that, you know, I found my safe space with those people who have all these diverse interests, and I was able to talk to them and get to know them and kind of, you know, watch their journey going to different directions in life, even if it is from afar.

09:55 What sort of things do you all do when you get together? Like, I assume that end of December and early January, you'll all be back in reading or. Most of you. Yeah. What kinds of stuff do you. Do you guys do together?

10:11 I mean, I feel like just do what everybody else does. You know, we just kind of gather at one of our houses and catch each other up. Catch each other up on everything that's going on in our lives and, you know, go out to eat. Just anything that everybody else does.

10:32 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stream movies.

10:35 Exactly.

10:38 I. Yeah, yeah. And you have no. Any. Do you have any contact with your. Your studio ever check it out or, you know.

10:51 No, And I don't mean this in a way where I am insulting the studio or anything like that. Absolutely not. But because of that lack of community, after I, you know, after graduated high school, I never found any kind of need to check in or talk to anybody from there or anything like that.

11:08 Yeah, yeah, makes sense.

11:12 I know that. And I think I'm definitely in the minority when it comes to that, which made me very sad at the time because, you know, I wanted to be one of those people that came back every year to help with the recitals and was kind of, you know, and I know that every year, so the studio has dance recital and every year they do an alumni dance. And I know that there's a lot of people who graduated with me who participate in those. And at first it made me sad that I wasn't close enough with anyone where I would feel comfortable doing that, but now it's, you know, frankly, who cares?

11:53 Enough time has gone by.

11:55 Yeah, enough time has come by. It's. It's not really something that would help me in my life right now in any way, but I. I appreciate that my parents worked to give me that experience to that. I was fortunate enough to go to a dance studio for almost my entire life, and I'm just very appreciative for that experience, but it's not something that I ever, you know, find any reason to go back to at all.

12:24 Yeah, yeah. Do you mess around with it yourself? Like, blast the music and find yourself kind of tapping along or, you know, doing. Having some fun when no one's watching.

12:38 You know, that's everyone. I. I don't know. I don't. Even if people deny it, I don't think there's anyone who, you know, doesn't sometimes just blast music and dance around, but sometimes I find that I will start playing music and I'll dance around and I don't know, I'll kind of be like, going around my room and I. I miss what I used to be able to do when I did dance, you know, I'm definitely not as flexible. I. I can't.

13:04 You can feel a difference already?

13:06 Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I can't. I can't do any of the stuff that I used to be able to do.

13:11 Oh, wow.

13:12 Which is very sad to me, you know, just because I know that that was something to do. And I was able to, you know, be so flexible. And I used to be able to. I used to be able to grab my leg and put it, you know, over my head, and I used to be very flexible. And I can't. I absolutely can't do that right now. That's terrifying to me.

13:39 It would, like, fall off.

13:40 And I remember, I. So I'm very lucky that the dorm that I live in, it has a dance room. So I played some music and I tried to do a little bit of ballet. And it was. It was sad. Like, I. You know, I. I watched myself in the mirror and I watched back the video of myself dancing. And I remember when I was younger and I did dance, it was something I took a lot of pride in, which is that. I'm not saying that I was good by any means, but I was definitely proud of what I could do. Yeah.

14:16 Yeah.

14:16 And I felt like I had a sense of rhythm. And I. It's very hard to describe when ballet. I felt like. I don't know. I. And then when I watch myself now, it seems very forced. It doesn't seem as natural as it used to be. I'm obviously not as flexible anymore. It's just. I'm obviously la. I obviously don't have the technique that I used to, which makes me very sad.

14:40 Yeah. Do people ever go back to it later? Actually, the person I studied with, God, she must have been in her 50s or whatever. When I was getting my degree, she went. That person went back into ballet, you know, seemed. And it was interesting, like an older adult kind of class, you know? Yeah.

15:03 I mean, those Getting back in there.

15:04 And practicing and reclaiming it, you know, just for the joy of it, or is it really the past right now?

15:15 I mean, I would say that for me personally, it's probably really the past just because, you know, while it makes me sad that I can't, I'm not good at ballet anymore. When, when would I need to be good at ballet? How would that help me at this point in my life, you know? But that doesn't mean that maybe in 20, 30 years I'm not going to want to go back to it. Maybe I will have some free time and I don't know, maybe I will see the value in it in my life again.

15:45 It's good to be open. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Sound like it gave you a lot of pleasure back then, the actual dancing of it. Not so much the group of it, the, you know, the people around you so much, but the, the joy of the dance. Sounds like it was like in you at that time.

16:05 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I love dancing and when I say that, when I say the people, I'm not trying to insult the people there at all.

16:11 I don't, Yeah, I don't get the.

16:13 They were very sweet. There was nothing wrong with them. It was just that me personally back then, I had very. I was a very, very socially awkward person. And it's something I still deal with at this point in my life, but back then it was definitely on another level. So it was very hard for me to communicate with people. So this is nothing to do with the people there, but it was just me not being able to, you know, incorporate myself and find that sense of community.

16:38 Are you shy? Is that, is that, are, do you feel, is it that you feel shy when you're in those situations?

16:45 I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say that right now. At this point in my life. It's something that I've definitely become very self aware on and how it was, is affecting my life. So it's something that I've been able to improve on a lot. But back then it was something that, you know, it kind of overtook my life to the point where, yes, I was self aware that I have trouble communicating with people and I, I don't know, I was just very anxious when it came to being surrounded by people and what they thought of me. What if I say the wrong thing? You know, if I see a group of people and I walk by them, they're laughing. I will automatically convince myself, oh, they're laughing at me. When there's no reason to Think that. But then. And that's a very common thing. A lot of people do that. But to me, it was another level where, you know, that would kind of loom over me all day or like over a course of days. And I, you know, that would be a place that I would avoid.

17:50 Yeah.

17:50 I wouldn't be able to stop thinking about it. So that was like the main thing that definitely affected me, not being able to find that sense of community. Because it was also just. I don't know, it was very hard for me to believe that there could. That I had the capacity to find that community and be in a group of people like other people were. I just. Because I would see other people talking to each other so naturally and joking around, smiling, and I would say to myself, I can't do that. I'm. I'm not someone who can talk so naturally with people.

18:32 Yeah.

18:34 Which is why, you know, I stuck with that small group of friends because they were the people that I felt comfortable around.

18:39 Yeah. Did they. It sounds like they reached out to you when you went to that event, or was it something you were doing together through school, the event you met your buddy at? Yeah.

18:50 Wait, sorry, what are you talking about? When it comes to events, I was.

18:52 Wondering if it was like, you know, that group of friends like that you. That you are close to now that you met in middle school, or. It sounded like there was this one person in particular and you went to something with her and then she had this group of friends and it worked out pretty well for you, that group. Yeah. Did you feel in the center of that group or did you often feel like a little different somehow than the rest of the group?

19:25 You know, I don't really think so, just because it was definitely a group of people who I was very similar with. And it's hard to describe. I mean, I can't. Granted, I was very young and I don't remember what was going through my brain at the time, but I don't really remember there being that much trouble when it came to that aspect. It was more just. I was little and I found my group and I was very hard to get out of that group. I'm not. Not get out of that group, but, you know, expands when it came to the people that I talked with. And I would say that really continued until very recently, until the second half of my junior year of college where I, you know, I wasn't really involved with anything. I never went to any clubs, anything. I was terrified to speak to people and especially being on a Big campus. It, it was really rough and it took me a while to adjust being here.

20:24 Yeah, I think it would be. Yeah.

20:27 Yeah. Especially because. And granted, again, it's gotten a lot better. But I remember up until very recently, again, up until a couple semesters ago, I, you know, I couldn't go to the library, I couldn't go to the big student centers. I couldn't. If I was at a place where there were people around me, I could not stay there for a long period of time. If I heard people laughing, I could feel my whole body tense up. I have to leave.

20:57 Yeah. Yeah.

20:58 And I have to just sit in the bathroom for a few minutes and just collect myself and remind myself that this is a big school. Nobody knows who I am. Nobody's talking about me, nobody's judging me, nobody cares. I'm just sitting there.

21:11 Yeah. Sounds very hard.

21:13 Yeah. I mean it's, it's gotten a lot, a lot better.

21:17 But the first club that you, that interest that piqued your interest, what was the first club you joined there?

21:27 I think when I. So I kind of started realizing that my social anxiety was frankly ruining my life. And I, the first thing that I did was I just looked into any female centered clubs just because, you know, I wanted to be around other girls who were hopefully trying to also meet other people. And you know, I just really desperately wanted to make friends.

22:00 Yeah.

22:01 So I think the first club that I joined here officially was. So it's a group called Charge and it's pretty much just a club where it's all about exercising. Exercising and kind of healthy lifestyle choices. And it's all women. And we pretty much get together once a week and somebody from, you know, the YMCA or different, different gyms will come and do, do different exercise classes, which is really nice. And it was especially nice because I was able to meet people, meet a couple people through that. And also that was a point in my life where I also realized that something that came along with the social anxiety was a lot of issues when it came to body image that I definitely ignored because it was. I used to be very, very underweight. And it was something that I never, I was always very ashamed of it.

23:03 Yeah.

23:05 And I would beat myself up over it. But even then it was something that no matter. It seemed like no matter how hard I worked on it, I. It would just never change.

23:16 Wow. Yeah.

23:19 And I hope that you know, by putting in. But granted it was. I wasn't really putting in that much effort because, you know, I wasn't exercising. I wasn't really thinking about what I was eating. It was more just. I would. It was more just me beating myself up and convincing myself that that was me putting an effort to change, you know, to change the way that I looked. So I hope that that was something that the club would help with a lot. And it did, to an extent. So that was nice. And again, it was. And I definitely became heavily involved with the club. And, you know, I ended up surprising myself in that aspect because I didn't really think I was capable of that.

24:15 You kind of forgot the. You almost like you forgot to be a little anxious, right?

24:21 Exactly. It was kind of nice to see my own progress, you know, in a combination of going to the club and also just my own efforts. Because I remember I've never stepped foot in the gym before until, you know, the beginning of that semester. And I remember I went with a couple of my friends to the gym on campus and I just started being so ashamed because, you know, again, this is a time where I was very underweight and I was very self conscious about that. And it seemed like, you know, I looked around and it seemed like everybody knew exactly what they're doing. Everybody has that kind of, I don't know, like meat on their bones and they have muscle and definition. It's like, oh, I, you know, I feel like I shouldn't be here. And I remember trying to pick up one of the lightest weights. I had no muscle and I couldn't do it and I dropped it and I just remember putting it back, going to the bathroom and just collecting myself and then just going home and thinking, I'm never going to do that again.

25:30 Yeah.

25:31 Wow.

25:32 Yeah.

25:32 And then it was nice because through that club where, you know, and they have this thing called small groups where it's exactly what it sounds like, where you just assign to a small group of people and you go to the gym together once a week. And, you know, it's very hard at first. Even, like, the basic workouts are very hard.

25:52 You mean physically hard or being with other people in that kind of a setting was hard.

25:57 I think the workouts mainly.

25:59 Wow. Yeah. Because I think really pushed you, it sounds like.

26:03 Yeah. And because I think once I started getting involved with the club, I realized that I kind of. That I love talking to people, I love meeting new people. And it made me realize how much I missed out on by, you know, and not that this is something that I could help or anybody could help, I have, by having social anxiety. I missed on. I miss out on so many experiences. And it's like. And for a second I felt like it was too late, but that's not true, and I wanted to make the most of that. So I, I love talking to the people in it and I love getting involved.

26:47 It's really impressive, Rachel, that you could see it, become aware of it, and have the courage to, you know, poke it a little bit. It seems to me incredibly courageous to be able to make that kind of a change. You know, it's really hard.

27:06 It definitely, and it wasn't easy because there were. There were times where it's. I think it's something that's. It's hard to understand if it's something that you've never dealt with. Because, you know, I did talk to some people about it and the main advice that I got was, oh, just put yourself out there. Oh, just, you know, just talk to people. It's not that hard. Keep your door open. Make sure you do homework in the common rooms. But it's. It's not that easy. You know, it's. And yes, I. And there is better advice that you could give people, but I don't think that advice is something, at least in my opinion, that really even matters in this case. Just because social. Social anxiety is just like. At least from what I've experienced, it's just like any other illness where there is no specific solution. It's time. And it's about going on a journey of self, just self awareness and being able to really examine yourself and see, this is what I've been doing wrong. This is what I have to change. And it takes just lots and lots.

28:20 Of time and courage, I think.

28:24 Yeah. Yeah, Definitely feels like. Yeah, because I also. Yeah. And because there was definitely a lot of things that I have to, you know, admit that I want to change about myself. And for example, I realized that I. For years I've been pushing people away because my social anxiety led me to believe that, you know, if I became. I was very close, scared of becoming close to people, close friends with people, because I would convince myself that they're not going to be friends with me forever. You know, that's not. Nothing lasts forever. Someday something's going to happen. They're not going to be friends with me and it's going to ruin my life in that sense. Or I'm going to say something, I'm going to do wrong, wrong thing, and they aren't going to want to talk to me anymore. And that's something that's going to make me feel even worse than if I was never even close with this person in the first place.

29:20 Yeah.

29:21 So I think there's a lot of connections that I missed out on. So that's definitely something that I'm still actively trying to work on when it comes to making up for that and trying to connect with as many people as possible. Especially because in the big school like this, there's people from all over the world with all different interests. There's an unlimited amount of opportunity to, you know, expand on your perspectives on the world and talk to other people and get different stories.

29:48 Yeah, true. Very true. So how do you push yourself, though? How do you push through? I mean, did you suck it up and go or.

30:01 To an extent. I think that's kind of the best way to describe it. Where. Yes, I. There are times where I. It scares me a little bit because I will have, you know, bad experience socially. Everybody does. Everybody has bad social experiences. That's not. It's not realistic for every day to be a good day or for me to overanalyze things. That's very common. A lot of people overanalyze social interactions. But when. But I think it's kind of accepting that that is a part of life and that, frankly, you're. Because one of the biggest parts of my social anxiety was that I would convince myself that everybody was judging me and everybody cared and that everybody's judging me and that if I did something wrong, people are going to know about it and people are going to care and people are not going to like me because of that. But I think it was realizing that I'm just one person. And although this doesn't. This doesn't sound like a positive thing, but in this context it is, which is that people don't care about you.

31:18 Yeah. I have a friend that talks about that all the time. She says everybody's not thinking about you all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

31:26 And it's, you know, putting yourself in other people's shoes in that sense and, you know, saying, okay, if I somehow saw somebody else having a bad social experience, you know, maybe they say a joke that doesn't land well or, you know, say something that's, you know, not great. Am I going to hate them for that? Am I going to even remember that in a couple days? No. No. But nobody cares about. Nobody cares about that. And it's accepting that, you know, and also that when you do make mistakes like that, you're not. You're not going to die. You're not. Life isn't going to end. Then you're still time. You can't stop. You can't stop time. Time is going to keep going on and you're going to wake up another day and that you have time, that the world is giving you time to fix those mistakes if you can make them, and, you know, just make up for it.

32:33 Sounds like you're being also able to be gentler with yourself, you know, not. Not harsh, you know, or working on not being harsh.

32:43 Yeah, exactly.

32:46 Yeah.

32:47 Yeah, exactly. And I think that was also something I really have to work on. And even now, you know, I. And I'm not saying this is a unique problem to me at all. A lot of people definitely deal with this where again, up until recently, it's. It was very hard to not have that one bad social interaction and then, you know, lock myself in my room and refuse to come out or talk to people because I would think, well, if I had that one bad experience with someone who would want to talk to me after that.

33:24 Yeah.

33:24 But it's realizing that I'm. I'm a human being. I make mistakes. Everybody knows that. And again, that I should be. And that to an extent, that I should just be proud of myself, that I am able to reflect on it. And if I do have a, you know, if I say something that I regret, I am able to reflect on it and I am able to think of what I can do to fix that. Because there are some people who, you know, if they won't even realize that they had a better interaction or they made somebody feel bad, they'll just continue with their lives never realizing that.

34:04 Yeah. They don't have reflection. Yeah.

34:07 And it's also to accept that while sometimes it doesn't feel like I've made much progress, that I definitely have and that I don't. And that the old version of me doesn't exist anymore. Even if it feels like they're coming back sometimes. And it's. That I've, you know, I've been able to change, even if it doesn't feel like it, and that no matter what, even if it is, even if the change isn't as big as I would still like it to be, that I should just be proud of any change that I've made in my life, because that's something that I wouldn't have been able to do, you know, six months ago, without.

34:52 Yeah. Without that kind of reflection. Boy, you will be so helpful if you wind up pursuing psychology, you know, as. As your career. It'll be so helpful for young women that are going. I mean, it's so painful and so difficult. And it feels like because you know about it, it would be. And you made changes and they weren't easy, but you did it and are doing it still. You know, I think, wow, what a gift that you'll have to offer.

35:28 Yeah, thank you so much. I, I definitely, you know, I am studying psychology, so it's definitely something I do want to pursue. I would love to, you know, help people who are also dealing with really any kind of mental health struggle about social anxiety, especially because I have talked to people and I have had very, very negative experiences talking to people. And I know why. And while I don't, this isn't me positively looking back on those experiences of having those bad experiences of opening up to people about the issues that I've been facing. But I know exactly what not to do.

36:11 Give me, can you give me an example without throwing yourself under the bus, so to speak?

36:16 Yeah, I mean, the main thing is. Well, there's two main things I didn't think of and one of them is. Well, I just. Three thing, three things. First, one, like I mentioned before, is that, and obviously you can still pursue these kinds of careers without having gone through the experiences yourself. That's not, you know, that's not a qualification or anything. But I think also on the other hand, like I. Exactly, like I said before, it's very hard to find credibility in talking to people if you haven't gone through the same experiences that they have. And it's very hard to listen to advice when you know that that person has never and likely will never face the specific issues that you have. Because, you know, again, sometimes I would open up to people and say, and pretty much say what I've been telling you about my social anxiety. And they would, like I'd been saying, they would just say, okay, you just have to put yourself out there. Well, that's not, you know, you see how that's bad advice. And it's important to remember that there's. There's no one specific solution for social anxiety because every single person is different. And what works for you might not work for somebody else. And also, you know, people don't have the same capacity to do the things that you can do.

37:55 Right.

37:56 Like, I remember there was a time in my life where I was going through depression and one of the big one big advice that I got was, you know, and granted, I did do this eventually, but it wasn't until months and months later, but it was, you know, go out and exercise. Go out and spend time with People. But to me, that was. And granted, of course, like that, that is something that helps. I'm not going to deny that. But it's not amazing advice. When you think of, well, how am I. How am I supposed to spend time with people and friends and go outside if I can't even leave my bed? How am I supposed to do that? You know, it's just important to remember I can't do what. I can't necessarily do what you can do. And it's. When you're talking to someone, it's just important to put yourself in their shoes.

38:45 Yeah, true. Yeah.

38:50 And also, just another thing is, I think social anxiety, especially, at least. And granted, of course, this isn't everybody, not everybody is like this. But something that I feel like I've heard a lot where I've dealt with is people don't see it as a big deal. They say, oh, you'll grow out of it. Oh, it's not a big deal when, you know, it's at least illustrating, at least to me, it's when it was at its worst worst, it's just as severe as any other. Like. Like I was just saying, it's just as severe as any other illness. And to be able to say that it just. If anything, I just made it worse because I would think, okay, well, if it isn't a big deal, you're right. Why. Why can't I just get over it? Why can't I just go out and just talk to people? It's. If it's that easy, why can't I just do it? And it's, you know, I think it's about the language I use when you talk about things like that. Because when you say get over it, you'll get over it, I think, or that you'll grow out of it. I think of, know, setting your thumb or maybe you bump your knee. That's what I think of. I say get over it. I don't think of social anxiety or something like that that takes over your entire life. That's not the language that I use for that.

40:17 Right.

40:18 And again, when you've never been through it, that's. I don't think it's uncommon. That's what you think.

40:26 It sounds almost like someone doesn't think when they respond that way. You know, it's like, because, you know, I said, you know, you said you don't have to have social anxiety to be able to work with someone with social anxiety and do a decent job. But man, oh, man, you sure would have to. You sure would have to have an empath, like the capacity to empathize, you know, to kind of yet that it's debilitating, you know, it's, you know, that you can't move with it, you know.

41:03 Right. And it's especially hard because with things like that, I mean, obviously it's. It's invisible where if you have a broken leg, of course, you know, people are going to see that you have a broken leg and they'll help you. And that's.

41:18 Right.

41:18 Sympathize with you. With. You know, and granted, when I. Whatever I say about this, it's not a one size fits all thing. It's, you know, just my own personal experience with it. But with something like social anxiety or depression, you know, people. People can't see that unless you, Unless you have a sign over your head. Nobody's going to know that for sure. So. And people don't understand if they haven't, if they don't give people, if they don't listen to the stories of those who have it, they don't understand. And they think that's just their personality. That's just. They are. Oh, like. And they'll stop trying and they'll say it's not worth trying to spend time with this person because, you know, Michael's saying they'll try to push people away or they, they'll close themselves off after a little while. And that is true to an extent. We're true to an extent in the sense of, of course, if somebody is pushing you away, you don't have to tortures, you don't have to put yourself through that by, you know, staying and that. But it's also, you know, it's just important to understand that people's brains work differently. People have gone through different experiences and that people are trying their best, even if it doesn't look like it.

42:57 You sound wise to me. Really? I'm not. Yeah. I'm not messing around. For real? Yeah.

43:07 You know, I feel like if it's something that you dealt with, dealt with the four years and years, you just have a lot to say about it.

43:15 Yeah, I think it's great. I think a lot needs to be said. What do you think the pandemic, like, let's say the pandemic happened to you, happened when you were before you met your friend at that event, you know, like you're in seventh grade or sixth grade or, you know, and things aren't feeling comfortable anywhere yet, or at least that's how I'm hearing it. I'm sure that there are places, but it wasn't obvious, let's say, to you at the time. And then the pandemic hits, and it's like no interaction, really. Right. And you're a little square of a person in your classroom on the screen, you know, not even. I mean, there's ways. I think it might feel like a relief, but kind of a dangerous relief.

44:02 Yeah. I mean, before I met one of my. My good friends in middle school, so I met her when I was 11 or 10. So I guess if the pandemic happened when I was nine and younger. I don't know if this is the answer you were expecting, but I think it would have been a blast. You know, I. If the pandemic happened when I was that young, I would have just. You know, I would have just been watching Disney Channel all day. I would have been playing with my.

44:26 Cat, been way more relaxed.

44:29 I would have been way more relaxed. I didn't, you know, I was very, very shy child, so I wouldn't have to talk to anyone. And.

44:37 Wow.

44:38 I think I would have had a great time if it was, you know, if it happened when I was little.

44:42 Wow, that's so interesting. Yeah. And then when it's over.

44:49 You know, I. I don't know, because when I. When I met my friends, you know, I was still a very shy child. And I don't think that would have necessarily changed throughout the pandemic. I don't think it would have emphasized that. So I weirdly don't think that it would have affected that much if it happened when I was very young, granted. But then, you know, when the pandemic did actually happen.

45:27 Were you. What year was it for you? Were you a freshman or a junior or a sophomore?

45:32 I was a freshman. Then it continued until I was a junior, where I think I really like the term of. Of dangerous relief, and I really like that term because that was definitely very accurate. Where, at least to me, I remember. I remember being miserable my freshman year. You know, I couldn't bring myself to talk to anyone. I couldn't bring myself to have friends. I would constantly be. And granted, this is going to sound a little bit dramatic, but to me, this is the most accurate way to describe it. I remember every. Almost every night, I would sit alone in my dorm room, and, you know, the walls are thin, and I can hear music, and I can hear people talking, and I'd hear groups of people talking, and I would just crawl into bed, and I would put on my headphones and I just sob and I Just say, why? Why can't I do that? You know, why can't I bring myself to do that? To do that? Why am I, you know, why do I have to. What did I do in a past life to be punished in this kind of way where something that I want so bad so badly is so close, but so far away.

46:44 Yeah. It's really rough. Yeah.

46:49 And, you know, and I remember there'll be some nights where I would, you know, look up, I look all my people from my room, and I would see people leaving with groups of friends to, you know, do whatever people do. And it was painful. It was really painful. And I just wanted it to end. All I did in my room was just sit there. And I. I remember I didn't even. I didn't even like going to the dining halls because it was too many people.

47:21 Yeah.

47:22 It was too. It Anxiety for me. So I would. So at UMass, our dorms have an option called grab and go, which is pretty much exactly what it sounds like. You. You just kind of go through a line, get food, takeout, and then just, you know, take it wherever you want. And I remember every single day, that's the only thing I would do. I would get grab and go. I would take it up to my room, close the door, you know, and I would try to get about three meals worth in one go.

47:58 So you wouldn't have to go back.

47:59 So I wouldn't have to go back and then just sit in my room. And I remember. And I specifically remember that I would be wearing. I would start my room. I would start my morning on a weekend in my. In my chair next to my desk, and then I would end the night in that exact same position, wearing the exact same clothes. The only difference is that I finished my takeout food, and I would convince myself that I was independent and I was happy. But, you know, it. It really wasn't the case. It was very hard.

48:40 Yeah, it sounds very hard. Yeah.

48:43 Oh. But anyways, so I would say that when the pandemic happened, it was actually a big relief for me. As much as I loved being here, I just. I just wanted to be home. I just. And it was, in a weird way, in a very strange way, it was almost a little relieving for me that it wasn't just me, that nobody could spend time with other people.

49:17 Yeah.

49:18 Because it was the opposite of what I'm dealing with throughout my time here in a, you know, slightly morbid way, because it made me happy.

49:29 It doesn't sound morbid. It just Sounds like it doesn't, like, shove it up in your face constantly, you know, like, it sounds almost like a little bit of relief that you don't have to kind of constantly, you know, see it happening and think about that, you know, or wonder why it wasn't going that way.

49:52 Yeah. So I would say that it was very relieving, you know, even if it was a dangerous relief where, you know, I would just. I just got to sit at home and, you know, I mean, I couldn't even work. I. You know, obviously, because of pandemic. So I'm not gonna lie. At the time, I thought it was nice.

50:13 Yeah.

50:13 You know, because I've only ever worked in customer service where I've had terrible experience with customers yelling at me and treating me terribly. So I'm just like, oh, I don't have to deal with that. I don't have to deal with, you know, the pressure of being surrounded by people. I. I just get to sit in my room and do work. And that's. And that's not. And nobody would judge me if I say that, because everybody's doing that.

50:37 That's right.

50:38 So it was nice. I'm not going to lie. It was very nice.

50:42 Yeah.

50:43 And I remember being sad when, you know, and not that the pandemic is over at all. You know, it's still definitely something that's very much going on, but when school went back to in person, I remember being heartbroken. I was really sad. I. You know, I. I got so used to online school and being at home, I couldn't. I couldn't imagine going back to that environment that made me so sad.

51:13 How was it when you actually did go back?

51:16 I think it was what I expected to. You know, it was bad. I. I got back. I. I think it was the point in my life where I felt the most alone that I ever have, you know, because I came back, I realized that, frankly, I. I had no one. You know, I. And this is going to sound like I'm exaggerating, but, you know, and this is. And at the time, it's really not. I really. I did not have a single friend. And that broke my heart because I realized how much my social anxiety had really ruined my life. Yeah. And that was desperate for even just one person. You know, I just. I just needed one person to be with and just talk to, just anything. I was desperate.

52:11 Yeah.

52:12 So I think that was probably the worst time of my life.

52:16 Wow. Yeah. It sounds so painful.

52:19 Yeah. And I remember there would be a couple times where I'M I would, you know, I would beg my mom to come up and visit me, and she would make the drive and she would come up and I. You know, I felt bad because the entire time I would pretty much. I would try to go down to the dining hall, but I would just collapse and I would start sobbing, and I would say, you don't understand. I'm all alone. When you go home, there's going to be nobody here. I'm going to be alone again, and I don't want that. And I don't know how to make it end. So I don't know. I don't look back on the time very fondly. But on the other hand, it's the push that I needed to actively start making changes on my life. And. And I can't imagine what it would have been like if I. If I just stayed that way.

53:15 Yeah, it sounds like your life would be in danger. Literally.

53:19 Yeah. No, definitely.

53:21 Yeah. I mean, I'm sure at different times it may have been. How did your mom handle it? Was she able to keep her own wits about her? You know, because I'm assuming she would just be so worried about her baby, you know, just so worried, and at the same time wanting to give you something that would be hard to figure out what that might be, you know, how did she handle it in your eyes?

53:54 You know, there's not much I can really think of specifically, just because it was never really something that I brought up to her in great detail or to neither of my parents, really. I mean, they knew that I was shy. They definitely knew that I was very shy child, but. And my mom, she, you know, would watch me go through that when she would come visit me, but I think they knew at the end of the day that I'm an adult and they're not. They're not here to make decisions for me. So as much as I'm sure that. And I know that they do love me and they, you know, I'm sure they wanted to help me, but what is there to help me with, you know? What is there they can. That they can do? Because there isn't.

54:51 Yeah. Sound like your mom in some ways, though, helped you get some of the tears out, which I. I kind of sometimes think. I hate to cry, but I actually think sometimes it's really all you can do, and it makes room for something else to happen sometimes. You know, like, if you can really go to those places, I know some people can do it really easily. And some people, you know, they practically have to be Dying to squeeze out a tear or two. But I sometimes think it. It serves a pretty good purpose to. You know, my sister does that all the time, to let it really wail, you know, let those tears come flying. Sounds like your mom was safe enough for you that you could at least do that with her, right?

55:48 Yeah. When it comes to that, definitely the main thing that comes to mind was, you know, over. That was the fall of my junior year. And then went to break came along, and I found that that semester, nothing really ever got better. Things just kind of stayed that way throughout the semester, pretty much. And then winter break came along and I was. In addition to everything that was going on socially, I was also going. Going through medical problems. And because of that, I, you know, I. I like the point that you made that sometimes you just need to cry like there's. There's nothing else that you can do where. Yeah, and that's. That's really all I did. I just. My mom would just stay with me for practically 247 because, you know, I wasn't. I couldn't leave the house. I couldn't bring myself to do that. I couldn't talk to other people. So I would just lay in bed and for a lack of better words, just rot away and just cry until. I just cry until, like, my eyes were dry and my face was numb and it was terrible. And she would just be there. And that was enough, you know, because.

57:20 That'S so sweet of her to do that.

57:24 Yeah, no, definitely. And I remember something that she would say a lot is that. Is that she felt terrible that there was nothing that she didn't do then that there is. There is nothing that she can do to take the pain that I was going through away. But the least. Or not the least you can do, but something that she could do was just be there and just not let me be alone for that period of time, which is nice. And it's what helped me get through that. It's what helped me get through those couple. Couple of months. And then I was. Oh, sorry.

58:07 No, I just was gonna ask. I know you had cancer. You said, is this that time?

58:12 Yeah, it was. I mean, it's still something that I am dealing with. It's just thyroid cancer. So, you know, it's. It's not life threatening. You know, I got it treated, some medication.

58:26 I know, but you're. But when you're young, like, you know, it's like, geez, come on.

58:29 Yeah. I think just because there was other stuff that I was going through when I Got that it was, you know, how much worse can it really get?

58:38 Right?

58:40 And also just because I knew that I had to go through surgery. And I've. With the one exception of years ago, I had to get surgery to get my wisdom teeth removed. I've never gone through surgery, and to me, that was terrifying. And I had so much anxiety around that.

58:54 And.

58:55 And I remember. I remember the doctor's visit or the day of the surgery very well, which is, you know, just again, I'm a very emotional person in general. So it was just me crying that entire day. And, you know, I kept asking my mom, you know, am I going to die? Am I going to die? You know?

59:11 Yeah.

59:12 You know, and it weirdly. Weirdly, it wasn't even the surgery itself that scared me. It was the anesthetics that they would use to put you to sleep, which is. I know it's kind of a weird fear for me to have, but I think it's. I just. I just had this very weird fear or not. I don't want to say it's weird because I'm sure it's not just me, but I have. And I still have this fear that, you know, I'm going to get those administered and just never wake up. You know, something's going to go wrong because I think it scares me because I'm asleep, so there's nothing that I can do to fight it or anything.

59:50 And not even dreaming. You're just like gone somewhere, not even dreaming.

59:55 And the last thing that I see is a bunch of doctors. I. Yeah.

01:00:00 What gives me the creeps just thinking about it. Yeah.

01:00:04 You know what I remember I went and they stuck in the needle for the aesthetics. And I remember I. All of a sudden I had trouble breathing. I could feel my heart racing. And I was convinced that it was something that they were putting in me. And I. I called them over and just like, please, like, please come back. Like, I. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. There's something wrong with this. It's. There's, you know.

01:00:26 Yeah.

01:00:27 Something wrong with this. Please take it out. And that's what they told me. They. All they put in was a needle. It's just a plain needle. There's nothing even. They haven't put any fluid inside of me or anything.

01:00:37 Wow. So frightened. Yeah. Yeah. I hope they telling the truth. There's a part of me that thinks those little. Would probably, you know, I mean, thinking back on it.

01:00:49 I hope they're telling the truth, too.

01:00:50 Yeah, I hope so.

01:00:53 But anyways, what they did to fix it. And, you know, I remember being pissed at the moment because I was like, how is that even going to help? Like, please, like, just take this out of me. Help me.

01:01:05 Yeah.

01:01:06 But what they did was they called a med student over who was. I don't know, I, like, pretty young, maybe in their. Like their 30s or late 20s. But anyways, called the student over and they just, you know, she just came over and she asked me, like, what I was nervous about, and we just talked to each other about our lives. I asked her how, you know, med school was going, and we just talked about that. And then by the time I realized, we talked for about 15 minutes, and I was talking and I was breathing.

01:01:38 Oh, right. Excellent. And you noticed that, or did she have to point that out to you?

01:01:45 I think nobody really pointed it out, but. And I didn't really notice as soon as it happened, but it was, you know, I would. At first I was like, you know, oh, how's school? And I couldn't get any words out.

01:02:01 Yeah.

01:02:01 But then I found that eventually, just talking normally, and I was like, oh, okay. And maybe I guess I was wrong.

01:02:12 Yeah.

01:02:13 Because I remember when I said that. Because I remember when I said that I couldn't breathe. The surgeon came over. I explained to him, and, you know, he explained that there was nothing going in, that there was no fluids inside of me yet. So he said, oh, I think you're just. I think you're just having a little bit of a panic or an anxiety attack. You know, I think you're just very nervous. And I kept saying, like, no, like, please take me seriously. You don't understand. I cannot breathe. I am. And I'm very scared. I'm very scared that I'm going to pass out. But, you know, just talking, it helped. And I think that really shows how much power just words can have.

01:02:52 Yeah.

01:02:53 And how people really, you know, I think people forget that.

01:02:58 Yeah. Yeah. I think you're going to make a difference in people's lives.

01:03:05 I. I hope so.

01:03:08 I. I can't imagine not. I mean, you really. I mean, this is a stupid thing to say, I'm sure, but I was nowhere near where you are when I was in college. I mean, I just was a goof, you know, just not completely unaware. I mean, I had horrible feelings here and there, but, you know, I just was. I was nowhere. Nowhere with self awareness or taking the time, you know, to, you know, see my place and figure things out. You know, I just was like this overstimulated knucklehead. You know.

01:03:51 No, I'm definitely. I'm definitely, you know, very much a goof. I. The only thing I'm really self aware of to, I'd say like a pretty good extent is just, you know, where I am at mentally. It's a big trying, but yeah, you know, that's. I'm just trying to focus on one thing at a time. But I'm definitely not anywhere near advance in my self awareness and, you know, my career or anything as much as I'd like to be. But I know that I'm trying. That's really what matters.

01:04:29 Yeah. And you're good at it.

01:04:34 I try. I try. At least. At least I'm self aware.

01:04:37 Yeah, very much so. Yeah. So, Rachel, what happens at this point in this class? We have Tuesday. It's this Tuesday, right, that we have to. I mean, is that the one we have to go to or there's. Or is it the following Tuesday? We. I mean, you know, the neighbors.

01:05:01 Actually, you know what? Before I talk to you about this, do you want to finish off the interview?

01:05:07 Okay.

01:05:08 Because I think we've been going for a good amount of time and I've been able to talk about a lot of what I wanted to. I'm going to go ahead and end the recording.