Dr Rosemary Lucas - Memories of the Depression

00:03 My name is Sarah Lucas and today is July 17, 2023, and I am speaking with Dr. Rosemary Lucas, who is my husband's aunt. And I'm recording this interview in LaGrange, Illinois at Plymouth Place. So, Rosemary, you have memories of the Depression. What comes to mind for you?

00:27 My recollections, of course, come because I was a young child and I just heard the word and I knew it was a bad word and all that. And I only bring this to mind and think it's worth mentioning now. It's because we heard that word again. But I think young people aren't just thinking it's another word and it's a face. Actually, we should be alert and pay attention to what's going on around us with the economy so that we don't have it happen again. That's just my opinion, for what it's worth. But my own recollection of depression. Now, I was just a young child at the time. Where I lived out in our township, my grandfather was the elected township supervisor and one of his titles was Emergency Relief Officer. Now, upon his death in 1933, that position fell to my father. So I got to know more about it. But even prior to that, I knew what it meant. We were living out in rural America at the time, so we were not going hungry. The people there were. They weren't fairly well off, but they were always well fed and well cared for. But we would read of or hear of or know of very different situations around us in surrounding communities or certainly in the city of Chicago.

02:08 Sure.

02:09 And as I say, in my grandfather's position, the needy in the family would come to the house looking for help. And again, when my father took over. So I remembered more from then. And it would not be uncommon for a man and a woman or a whole family to show up at our door actually begging for some help. And the help they could get would be a voucher for a local grocery store. And this was not Jewel and Mariano's, it would be a local store and they could take this voucher for. And if they got $10, they thought they were rich and they could go to the store and the store owner would honor it and they could buy food for a few days for their family.

03:07 Yeah.

03:08 And now the thing is that sometimes a man would show up at the door and desperate and it would be like after hours. And in those days, stores weren't open 247 like they are now. And so there he would be telling you about, telling mother and dad about his family. And so the Next thing you know, my dad would come into the house and get mother and the two of them would head for our pantry, a large pantry. And the shelves were soon empty of anything they had to give soup and canned vegetables and things like that would go so that they could have a meal for that evening. Otherwise, they would have nothing. And then, of course, they would get a voucher that they could use the next day at the local store. I was always impressed. Well, first of all, when I'd see them heading for the pantry, I knew that my favorite soup was going to be gone. Tomato soup that I dearly loved was going to be gone, which it was. But when they left, our pantry shelves were empty. And I couldn't believe that somebody had didn't have anything on the shelf at home. I was probably about 7 or 8 years old, and it was hard for me to believe that this was the way it was. But anyway, and then the other thing they always needed for kids, they needed school clothes, especially shoes. And so again, somebody made arrangements for a local store to honor our vouchers. They could get them. But I can remember one man telling us that what he did to make them last, the shoes last longer, he would cut the toes out so he would have a little more room to grow. And I remember he came back years later and told us. He said, I used to cry because I had to cut the toes out of their shoes so they could wear them longer. He said, now they buy them with the toes out. I'll never forget that expression, if that's the way it was. But it was just. It was an experience for me to see what was going on.

05:32 Yeah.

05:33 And to be. Not that we were that well off, but we were never looking for food or for clothing. You know, we were cared for. But it was just a very, very. It was a difficult time. But then another part of all of this. And while I didn't actually experience it, I knew of people who did in Chicago. The teachers were paid. The Chicago public school had no money, and school kept on. Teachers were teaching, and they were paid in what was called script. Now, maybe you've never heard that term.

06:10 Before, I don't know.

06:11 But what it is, it's an iou. And the school board would issue those. Say, I taught all for several weeks at some school, and I earned $300. I would get paid in script. Now, if I needed the money and I went to the merchants to use it, they would give me so much on the dollar, depending on the store, maybe from the 300, they would be willing to accept it, but I would get back 200. The merchant took a risk, and I remember that was another problem, because if you earn 300, you didn't get all that. If you only got 200, you weren't going to be able to buy as much as you had planned.

07:00 Wow.

07:00 Now, some teachers, there were a few I knew who had, they did not have a problem because their husbands were working and they were an older couple and the husbands had a job, and prior to the Depression, they had been saving money. So she was able to keep her script until the whole situation was cleared up and she was giving us the tax revenue we needed as fast as the schools were growing. And so once or twice we had to issue what was called teachers orders, and the teachers got their check. Now, in that case, the teachers never felt it in the check, but we felt it in that we took. The school district essentially took out a humongous loan from local banks with the understanding that our community would approve a tax rate increase within the next six months so that we could pay it back. So the teachers didn't really feel the pinch of the situation, but the district did because, of course, they had to pay it back with interest and all that. But it was. It was a difficult time because some of us remembered the Depression and people getting paid in script, which was an honor, but at least ours were at the time.

08:33 So how long do you think, what year do you think the script payments stopped?

08:39 What would you say up in the late 30s, late 30s, district started to collect their revenue, and in my case, I believe it was in the 50s that we were short of money. Schools were typically short of money because we were going through the periods of growth and the revenue wasn't keeping up with the student enrollments. But in the 30s, it was just all over.

09:12 So, Rosemary, where else, what other aspects of your life were affected by the Depression? Do you remember? I mean, you told me the story about your parents giving at the door so generously, and you're talking about teaching.

09:27 I think the only aspect of my depression that was really impressed me was the fact that people had to put their pride in their pocket and go out and actually beg for help for their families. I think that was something. Just imagine a father with a young family suddenly looking around at his children and thinking, I cannot care for them. That, to me, was an aspect that was most impressive because for the most part, the fathers, I know, they took pride in providing for their own children, and they were not. I guess it's a case of using the expression put pride in your pocket and go. And that took a lot. It really did. Because I remember when dad was in charge of the program, I can just remember some of the men coming in and they were so humbled by having to do this. Now some more would not be, you know, so what? Somebody will take care of me.

10:45 How did you feel? How did you feel watching your parents go into the pantry and give what they had?

10:52 I was. When they went in there, I was impressed that first of all that they did it. And of course, as a little kid, I saw some of my favorite foods being taken away. You know, and the thing is, I knew then that I was sharing with some other needy another family. I knew that. And I also knew very well that tomorrow mother would go to the store and replenish our supply. That much I knew. But it did impress me a lot when I saw people coming, literally beg for the food for their families. Yeah, I can still remember that. And I can remember some of them, you know, looking down. They wouldn't look up at you, they would look down. No, they were sort of ashamed that they couldn't do it. And then it's just like today with any of these programs. Once in a while you get someone who just thinks I'm entitled to it and they don't worry about it. That was not the. For the most part there, it was a humbling experience for them to come.

12:14 Rosemary, I'm noticing a connection, if you don't mind my bringing it up. So when you were teaching, you said to me that you were always thinking about the less fortunate kids that you taught. And I'm wondering if seeing those individuals and families and fathers coming to the door, that impression stuck with you and it kind of connected back when you were teaching and how you felt about the less fortunate.

12:44 Well, I don't doubt, but what it did. I had a. From the time I was young, I always had a strong feeling for the people who seemed to be less well off than I was. Not that I was that well off.

13:00 Right.

13:00 But we were always. There was no worry that there would be a shortage of food or, you know, we may not always have. You know, as a kid, you wanted the same thing some other kids have. We didn't always have that. Mother didn't think it was good for us, I suppose. Or you might have wanted the latest in the young girls fashions and things, and you didn't always get them. But that was nothing compared to not having enough to eat.

13:37 Absolutely. Absolutely.

13:39 Yeah. So, yeah, that depression and that's the thing. I'm thinking that these days we talk about it lightly, and maybe we shouldn't. Maybe we should remember history repeats itself. And we don't always remember that. So that's my story.

14:01 I like it. I like it. And it's very powerful.

14:04 And I thought maybe putting it all together, I can add this to the tape. I was talking to Mark yesterday, and I mentioned something about it, and I mentioned the script, and he didn't know what it was, so I had to explain it to him because people have never heard of it.

14:25 Well, I didn't know what it was. And thank you for filling that in. And I can see why you were so impressed with your parents, with their generosity and compassion. Thank you, Rosemary.

14:41 Oh, yes. That was actually a lot of that. Paul, my brother Paul, was a duplicate of my father in that regard. Maybe you didn't know that, but he was.

14:56 Yeah, I believe you.

14:57 He may not have always given the kids everything they wanted in their allowance, but he was a duplicate of my dad. And that he if someone needed something, he provided it somehow or other.

15:11 That's really sweet.

15:14 Probably his children probably didn't even know it, but that's the way he was.

15:20 Thank you, Rosemary.