Earle Fisher and Faith Morris

00:02 My name is Faith Morris. I'm 64.

00:07 Today's date is March 3rd, 2020 where the national Civil Rights Museum. My interview partner is dr. Earle Fisher and how we know each other is through would definitely through the museum. That's how I got to meet this man in for the first year. I was here. He was the keynote speaker for April 4th and I saw how Dynamic he was there. So he's been with us ever since.

00:36 My name is dr. Earle Fisher. I am 41 years old today's date is March 3rd 2020. We are at the national Civil Rights Museum. My interview partner is Faith Morris my relationship to her is that as my sister in the struggle for social justice and black liberation?

00:57 64 say I know you see there is no way that I ever put that out. So he allowed to drive to forget it. Once it's going to be out there in that we would stay and knowing that you were going to have to say something about your age. I was I was curious cuz I never would have gotten in the way you cut your eyes at me. I would like she's going to say something that's going to shock me if you close your eyes when you said it cuz my mouth dropped I was like 64 and as I was thinking like no, I have mercy you can easily pass for 50, but because I tow it matter what you doing you no talking about being, you know, sisters and brothers in the struggle you you are out there doing so much that I admire that we include what we do here in the National Civil Rights Museum, and we see you doing all of what you doing out in the neighborhoods and and and how your your building, you know this network. You know, I Cry

01:57 Fox Community so it is really something you know, so where did you come from Pastor Earl? I came from my mom box file is Earl Bradley. I come from Benton Harbor Michigan small town on the southwest corner of Michigan is about 90 miles east of Chicago and I came to Memphis in 1999 on a basketball scholarship to LeMoyne. All right, so that's how I ended up in Memphis. I was going to did not have you know, the vast majority of the things that have been involved at the Forefront of my mind when I took my very first flight ever which was from Chicago O'Hare to the Memphis International Airport to come to the morning to go to school, you know, how to play basketball and have fun and do all of the wild enough noxious things that college students do.

02:57 History of Memphis in terms of his struggle for human rights civil rights and social justice, you know, Benton Harbor is or was when I was there in about 95% black and the twin city of Benton Harbor St. Joseph, Michigan when I was living in Ben Harbor St. Joseph was 90% white the separation between Benton Harbor and st.joe tell me this sounds familiar face was a bridge was the bicentennial Bridge actually and I noticed cuz my mother worked on that bridge. My mother work has continued to work and has worked for the Memphis of the Michigan Department of Transportation. If I'm 41 and 41 42 years and irony of that bridge separating, you know, a group of black people in the group of white people in the first thing if you're coming from Ben Hur,

03:57 Iran to st.joe the very first thing you see when you cross the bridge is the Barren County Jail.

04:06 And then behind it is the Barren County Court first thing that the first thing you say so it's like a warning sign if you black folks come over here. We got some of that act a fool if you want to get out of water if you want to and ironically I said it then I digress for a minute. I recall I was in Memphis. So this would have been that's a two thousand Four 2005. I know some Scala can go fact check this there was a Klan rally in st.joe.

04:36 At the courthouse when my mother was working then at the blossom land bridge was another bridge in the corner to the bicentennial Brits off when you grow up Malcolm said it this way if you you know, everything south of Canada is Deep South do I say everything is Mississippi? So Michigan literally like, you know, I think it was James Carville who said Pennsylvania is Pittsburgh on the westside Philadelphia on the east side and Alabama in the mid Michigan is Benton Harbor Saginaw Detroit Flint and Mississippi from what we would call the north. I mean so much of what I've encountered growing up, you know has helped to shape my social and political and even religious psychology.

05:33 You know, I'm just really love who I know you to be it. I met you seven years ago my first impression of you.

05:45 Is just how well you tell the story that needs to be told you no and it and it really comes up through your toes. I mean, it's it's it's something that is cuz it's cuz you're a scholar. I'm here at you. You're smart as all get-out in the way that you think about what we need to think about and you you pull it out of us. Tell me what you are most passionate about right now.

06:14 Wow, the first thanks for those from any kind words and you know me I don't just throw that and I don't take that stuff like that. I deeply appreciate it. That's why I want to take a minute in Florida on the phone that because you know first I worked hard to achieve the academic standing that I have. You know what I did and this is no shade anybody but I didn't do a two-week. You didn't declare yourself doctor you want call on Telephone African-American preaching cuz you on the black church everybody. Right. I got to tell you one thing. I was I was in singing this this program and the preacher that was that called me doctor at the wild. So y'all go outside then called everybody doctor. I want to earn my mind my doctor and you know when you do this type of Justice word

07:13 You find out how much people will diminish your scholarship to try to analyze the impact of your voice and even your vision for the community so early on I was taking pride and just being labeled an activist cuz a lot of times you didn't have black preacher is on the front line. And so I was like that, you know that I'm a free Soldier swords and if people know some about Ben Harbor it would make more sense to them right light all that's what you get if you know the theology from if you will but then I realize people were calling Matt activist in the pejorative sense like he just some activists. So I thank you for applauding and affirming, you know, some of what I've been able to accomplish because it took some sacrificing some struggle to get that which is true to the history of our people too. So I am most passionate about right now.

08:13 I do work on rev Albert cleage Junior who was a black militant preacher in Detroit during the Black Power Ranger name him at the time cuz I didn't know who you was like, I was already involved in no black liberation theology. I was already in the pasture it and I stumble upon this guy, you know before I can get into Ph.D program. I was teaching the class and Rose college and I constructed a it was actually called Gangster Theology and I constructed this car's try to talk about people who understand God from the underside. And again, if people know about Ben Harper if people know about South Memphis dry, cuz I come in I go to the morning so stuff then people would know that there is a God talk a god idea that people shape from the underside that is different than what people say about God from the rooftops of from the grass tops. If you will die from the privileged positions of society and saw in the process of constructing that class. I reached out to one of my mentors. Dr. Randall Bailey.

09:13 Who was the Hebrew Bible scholar that was is he not pee is now professor emeritus at the interdenominational theological center in Atlanta. And he asked me to read a book by a guy named the late great. Dr. William Jones and the book is called as God of white racist. And so I'm reading the book and he is challenging but we will now call the forerunners of the forefathers for Black Liberation theology and I'll run up on this guy was out of Detroit, you know change the name of his church and it was about this is Churchill's originally Central United Church of Christ. He changed it on Resurrection Sunday in 1967 to the Shrine of the black Madonna cuz they unveiled The Shrine of the black Madonna and child and so I'm like reading what he has said and kind of like I said that last week, who is this guy? And why did I not hear about him?

10:13 Disseminated study black theology while I was at Memphis Theological Seminary. I know about James, the white Hopkins. I did my dissertation work on albuq leg and he would say that

10:34 Nothing is more sacred to God than the liberation of black people. I am passionate about the liberation of black people if I had to qualify that I would say it this way. If you believe in Justice and Equity, you should be passionate about those who have endured the most Injustice and inequity. I deeply believe that if my white brothers and sisters or my asian brothers and sisters had endured and encountered as much Injustice and inequity as my ancestors did I would say I don't think there's anything more sacred to God than the liberation of fill in the blank and I will be passionate about that the way that the Universe has orchestrated my existence in this round is such that I have a passion for my people and my ancestors in my elders in Moscow.

11:34 My family members in my community and so I'm deeply passionate about that that has taken me on unique and I guess in some ways I queered Journey sous-vide. I would know you if I had been involved in this type of work when you were saying where we met. I was thinking I would like Terry had just gotten to the Terry Freeman. We are not when you were there, but but you and when I met you is on that day when I met Terry Freeman as well because it was the April 4th program and I remember, you know, hanging a wreath over the balcony and all that stuff and meet me. Also I said, it's been a weird type of development and so far as I didn't have this stuff planned out like I didn't say hey, you know what I was growing up, I would like one day I'm going to be a you know, what's on my call civil rights?

12:34 Human rights leader who are avatars enough didn't think I was going to be past. Okay, that's another conversation with a Ministry. But you know, it's taking me on path on a path where is shoes have become so crystal clear to me with regards to things like Criminal Justice Reform, you know media accountability and voting rights political engagement in education and empowerment. And so now I find myself, you know advocating for Stuff reading stuff teacher stuff preaching stuff doing stuff based upon the necessity of what people need to be free.

13:20 I never saw it coming though the best sometimes when you plan too hard for something you miss something that really should happen. Just based on some needs that you have that you had no idea that you think you're absolutely right also think that's true of that is there's a truth to the anxieties and sometime.

13:44 Despair discouragement around am I am I really doing this right? Is this what I'm supposed to do? Cuz this at this know what I have planned, you know, but then there are times like what we shared earlier in this conversation with somebody who you know is sincere and somebody who you know, you and Maya and who admires you just gives you the words of affirmation that you need. So it's been a beautiful but still strange journey and it is a there's a uniqueness to the

14:19 I don't know what the word is. I'm looking for but to the uncertainty of it all but sometimes you like, you know, there's always a? Behind it if you knew all the answers of what you would be doing even this week today, then I don't know then then you're not dealing with the work. I think you dealing with and to be able to just

14:47 Conqueror or attack or just be ready for more at least have the the mindset to be able to deal with it and pull in whoever you need to get it done then you know, that's kind of the work that you're doing. Yes. It is interesting. You say that I want to say something about what happened to me today OKC and then I'mma ask you some questions to cuz I'm curious back up with get nervous week. But today is super Tuesday. It is all over the state of Tennessee and especially in the city of Memphis on the counter Shelby. You have people trying to get to The Ballot Box to cast a vote. Well on my way to the National Civil Rights Museum for this conversation, you know, my phone is blowing up cuz people attacking me because they're trying to contact the Shelby County election commission to get necessary information on where they should go so that they can pack cast their vote and they can't get their needs met from the election.

15:47 They call me and then come to find out one of the precincts in the neighborhood where I live and work in Worship in the Whitehaven area the Whitehaven Community Center the display of the community center is as if the community center is not open. So you have people going there who I signed to go there but feel like they can't cast their vote today because the center is not open which it is, but people have to be directed.

16:20 To start and spaces but there's not proper signage there is not proper Personnel to direct the people. And so you know as well as anybody that over the past several years since I've been inspired to do more work around voter education vote engagement and voting empowerment the amount of obstacles that we have to go through just to exercise these fundamental and constitution rights and the chilling effect that these small obstacles have on our ability to make sure our voices are heard are ridiculous and I just so happen. I wouldn't plan on this happening this morning. I thought that this election cycle with a be a little bit lighter for us because it's a presidential election in the end the turnout in the first thing that I'm sure about that is that White Haven is not going to take that. So I'm surprised I haven't heard it all the way down town. You know where we are from Whitehaven about for silent about not being especially at the Whitehaven.

17:20 Rights of the conversation. So I'm pretty sure you got to leave about the phone blowing up a question for you. Sister Faith is how did you get involved in this type of work? Right? I am so I mean, obviously I know Hamilton High School has a rich history cuz it was walking distance from my house on South Parkway East.

17:47 You know my daughter blessing me all the times. She said I had no idea that you are with an active is that you are because I haven't always been you know, I've always been I'm in a marketing advertising Communications background. That's that's what I went to school for. That's what most of my career has been.

18:13 All my career has been that and born in Memphis raised have one daughter and raised her the early part of her life here. And then you know, we moved to Chicago and we were there for 25 years and that's really what's been her home since she was you know, 8, is she still in Chicago still in Chicago, but they're with my two grandbabies. And so she always says

18:46 I'm just shocked as it's amazing the things that you're doing and the things that you're pushing and what you're doing at the Museum and I'm going nuts and because it's just so good and it's so surprising because I've dealt with corporations. I've dealt with organizations. I've dealt with legislators are dealt with CEOs, you know different platforms different in a different field. Nonprofit has never been my field ever. I'm probably the worst one to me it. Profit. So you never see me as the president of the national Civil Rights Museum because they need somebody who get without profit is I'm always here for you. Just keep things in mind that I go and push out the stuff that that needs to be pushed out, but I was asked to come here.

19:38 To reposition the museum for the reopening Museum was closed for 18 months to the relevant the Lorraine side of the campus and needed to be able to present this Museum as more of an international and National Institution and to not have us only focused on the balcony. You know it and only on room 306. Where is the important part of the story and to try to bring us out of being so exclusively historic are these all the things I said we need to do. This is not what we need to do. Y'all need to let me go to stay in Chicago and y'all keep doing what you doing, but they were willing to let me do some things to pull us out of our comfort zone to bring some folks here that they'd never even considered having here and to do some things that will really different from what the museum

20:38 Had ever done

20:41 And I necessarily things that they would have that comfortable with but you know to be the kind of institution that we're trying to be and to have the true understanding of the historic movement and the current movement and to pull ourselves out of so exclusively being steeped in history. It's so important that we know nothing about is we tell the truth and we going to let you know what happened do this movement, but there's so much more to tell that that enhances that story do the American Civil Rights movement during the historic.

21:22 . And while we still dealing with that now you making me think about something my mother has you live in your history today. I was so glad that you were part of mlk50 with us. One thing that was clear to me.

21:40 Cuz who knows how much longer I'm going to be here, but I sure won't be here for another 50 Macklemore Herbert lest he when I was at lemoyne-owen Pastor Lester came Free Chapel service. Now, you know, he's probably early seventies now something like that late sixties early seventies not he said I'm 50.

22:11 That means I probably been here longer than I'm going to be here.

22:22 So mlk50 was such a huge thing. And we needed to have folks around us one that got it the one afraid to talk about the what was tough about the last 50 years in the 50 years coming up that hadn't had live some and have been doing some things and you know, you were one of the standout and that whole process of that whole story telling you no even have you do the response to the house and it wasn't just cuz we liked you when we knew that we would get from you the kind of information that

23:06 Put it in perspective potentially in a different way that than some others would look at it. So that was that was important to us. And you know, we technically launched up the Vault 901 from the main stage. Yes announcer. Hey, here's our platform for the next several years, you know, I guess I was naive or early I told you about these anxieties in these despairs is discouragement. Like I just did like I get three years to this but that's it. Right so far us it was like 2018 2019-2020 Miller last year. We were doing the Memphis Blues again. I like you know what we just got to say in every election. I don't know where you think you going to let you go anywhere for anything that has to do with voter empowerment boater education just understanding me to wear a political as an organization is an institution the national Civil Rights Museum then talk about candy.

24:06 I'll get it all that but we definitely get into policy and helping folks understand. You know, what they need to know about voting and just to vote. You know, I don't and the sacrifice that we and the information. I mean, I think that you have talked about the role that the museum has played in terms of providing historical information and contacts but I will say a special to pass over the years with my significant and intimate engagement over the past several years with the museum that you all have done a stand-up job of providing current information and contacts to even when that has been part of a very strenuous process. You talked about the mlk50 project and process and I remember some of those early enough Wendy Thomas and representatives from the city of Memphis.

25:06 What are the conversations that take place and I understand how difficult that could be. So I applaud the museum for taking a step and I know you have been one of the instrumental Personalities in in figures in this process of providing that spaced that we need not just to talk about what has happened but to talk about what is happening. So I appreciate it that I see how big do appreciate that one of the things that happens a lot is young people come in and they think all the Civil Rights folks are old people and we keep telling know they started in their teens. They started in in college, you know, you need to do it now. So having you and Tammy and you know, so many of the activist that are in the streets right now getting stuff done to so that they can see what this current movement is about. The people who are part of the current movement are not disconnected to or disrespectful of

26:06 Write the elders in the Trailblazers of the movement's past phases. I think that it's been critical for us to stand alongside people, you know from a pastoral standpoint. So I stand alongside, you know doctor lisimba gray James nettles in Mount Vernon in a Samuel Billy Kyles, who was that Monumental and even now some of the other so I mean, I just think that it's important for us to find ways that we make these connections. I am currently the Henry Logan Stars fell off at Memphis Theological Seminary. And so that's a rich tradition in and of itself when you start talkin about the sanitation workers movement and what doctor stocks meant not only for that movement, but what doctor starts meant for a black clergy in the city of Memphis, we're trying to be trained academically and ministerially so obviously we stand on the show

27:06 The Giants and too often. I think people try to construct this Rift or generational divide and antagonism between the generations, but I just don't feel like when you peel back layers that that's what that you have people who are passionate about issues that are important to them and people want to see our communities and I institutions and how organizations in our cities and I world progressed together and sometimes that requires I was a difficult conversation remember a couple weeks ago when the vice president was coming to town and so I made a statement that I made in a way that will let folks know where I as a Advocate stand but you know, we had to talk offline like I have to entertain the vice president if you know the enemy and being a doctor we were outside during

28:06 Okay, then right after I written my stuff and stuff and we just took a picture of you don't let us know. If you know this is part of the struggle where I can respect what the museum has to do as an institution in an organization and I can applaud and appreciate y'all saying yes early. We know we need your voice to even when it might be a dissenting voice even when it might be a antagonistic voice because I know you are committed to you know, the the the creation of a more just and Equitable Society especially for black folks and I am too so sometimes it takes that iron the shopping that I you know, I got plenty of love for the national Civil Rights Museum and not just because of the historical landmark that it is, but because of the work that you all have committed to and the recent iteration of the the movement

29:03 Well appreciate that really do so just one one other thing. One other thing is, you know every

29:15 Right before

29:18 Pastor Earl gets ready for his Sunday's he'll expose with y'all pray for me. You know you make sure I'm I'm doing this right that I'm focusing on the right thing. You know, this Sunday is going to be this at this Sunday is going to be bad and he talks about his church you talk about your church being the blackest Church him and I dismember Nazareth Church on every corner every quarter. So now what is special about the poison that is just a larious. You're right that there are four thousand stars in the city of Memphis. Here's what I find peculiar. No church has ever tried to challenge ever sent for the title of being the blackest roach in the account. I think that says a lot about the state of black religion black face.

30:17 And the black church where in the city of 4000 churches in the city in the city that has one of the highest philanthropic rates in the country and one of the highest poverty rates in the country because there's a whole nother hour somewhere so that I did it that nobody really challenges us on that or that no one else would take pride in being unapologetically black and unashamedly Christian has Trinity United Church of Christ on the leadership of Dr. John my right with that but first, I know him really well to he is the pastor of my pastor Frank and Anthony Thomas. Yeah, right. So there's a lady is there even before I recognize and I remember Dr. Barbara Holmes Who was the

31:17 Dean of Faculty the first African American in the first female dean of Faculty of Memphis Theological Seminary painting that connection for me one time when I didn't even know it right so there is that but you know, like Trinity in the 80s and the 90s, you know it like I wanted to make sure that we were being true to the spirit and the history of the black church, but not just that I didn't name Abyssinian Baptist Church Hamilton. I'm not the founding Pastor Abyssinian. In fact the longest the longest serving Pastor Alita, but I'm the fourth in 14 years. Wow. Okay, so there was a hot turn around before I got there and to that degree that might be why a lot of people don't really know much about Abyssinian disconnected for me. But at the same time I did not name of us after the historical Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem New York foundling pastor of Abyssinian doctor are pyramid named the congregation this and so one I wanted us to be true to the

32:17 Good of the historical Abyssinian Baptist Church, which was a church of social and political education activism. And advocacy in Harlem founded by Ethiopian fishermen who had come over from the motherland who were looking for a Baptist Church in New York who go to First Baptist Church in Harlem, and it's segregated. So they asked these Ethiopian Merchants to sit in the balcony and they said oh hell no and they went and started their own that's an act of resistance rooted in black face and black religion, which is the answers in the origins of the black church. And so I wanted to make sure that people knew that Abyssinian we were not promoting some white Evangelical Theology and black face, you know that we were being true and sincere to the origins of the black church and that we deeply believe that that's what people need in the Whitehaven area in the city of Memphis in the

33:17 Call Shelby and all of the clothes that I didn't even name of the black construction Memphis and Shelby County actually think I think this may have been assigned who came to Abyssinian to visit in February of either 2019-20. I think 2019 February 2019 and I was preaching this sermon. I think I was preaching out of James Brown. You know, I'm Black and I'm Proud type stuff and she said now the blackest sermon I ever heard in my life and it didn't people. So, you know this just a black sure y'all just a black church of blackity black church like this the black history. Somebody says, it's a black his church in Memphis and Shelby County. Okay. Got it. You know, but not only that is, you know, sister Faith we have been in many ways like the Hub of so much activism and organized labor organizers to you know, when Tammy Sawyer and I founded the Memphis Grassroots organizations Coalition in 2015 after kind of Schilling murder Darrius Stewart in a week

34:17 Organize death of Criminal Justice Reform know some of the vote 901 stuff, you know, the black lives matter Memphis the official black lives matter. Memphis chapter has had panel discussions in meetings there, you know that there been all kinds of events Town Hall meetings in things that for me represent what the black church should be which is not only a site of raising people's spiritual consciousness, but also side of raising people's social and political Consciousness. And so that's what we've been trying to do and I do like that I do like that tag, I like it. I like it better. If you live up to it. I like it. I wouldn't mind us being challenged. You know, what people saying if y'all are really the black church in Memphis and Shelby County y'all with fill in the blank, you know that accept a child cuz I want us to be true to the spirit of our faith.

35:11 What if we miss that I don't know if we missed anything. I know I mean shoot what church you go to, you know, I was raised and my parents were Pisgah pay in Norma and Leon Griffin, especially Leon Griffin. My parents were in church every Sunday. So how was in church every Sunday and you know, I was involved in everything you do physical pain have very few black churches and certainty and even fewer black priest. Yes. So we always had a black priest. So it was a beautiful way to grow up and also said when I got old enough to make my decisions, I needed to go somewhere where I was hearing some real sermon to serial singing so I have a strong Episcopalian background. I have every respect for in fact, we got the first black female right Bishop.

36:11 Play like a year ago only been about a year. But when I went to Chicago to see you got it in this Subway is its miles away, but but it's got it in there and I've enjoyed that and have you know been involved in a lot of leadership in the church and and you know want to see it the thing that amazes me most about religion.

36:45 That traditional vocal going away, but I'm worried about seeing me either, you know, and the non-traditional are doing better because folks are really not wanting to have so much structure. They just try to come in and get a blessing come in and hear some good preacher come in and hear some good singing get happy if that's what you do a night if that's what you don't do, you know gold and do bowling on you know, whatever whatever and not be so steeped in so much of the tradition where it kind of loses the whole religious parents because ultimately and I think you would have tests to an agreed and a man disc when you are trying to fight for justice Equity. It is ultimately a faith journey and absolutely like something above and beyond yourself.

37:45 And I just know the work that I have done would not have been effective or or at least as effective not as sustainable not as significant.

37:59 If it wasn't for my my face.

38:02 I absolutely believe that so unless it's a it's a journey of sorts for sure. And I think we do ourselves a disservice when we try to do it don't have to be rooted in a denominational tradition for particular theological doctrines rain, but it does need to be rooted in a spiritual empowerment that reminds us that there is something at work in the world and then the universe is much stronger than we are and much more powerful than we are and ultimately that the Universe and I was dr. King and set another timer set. It does being towards Justice. I just need for my spiritual leader. Dude come from more than his gut. Yeah. I need him to have a whole lot more going on in that but other than that, you know and can be able to help in the way that we need a spiritual leader to help us and have that kind of background.

39:02 Platform and education and trying you want to. I need that it's been so great hanging out with you for the pleasure have been mostly mine face. Trust me. It's been mostly mine.