Flannery Enneking-Norton and Marie Maffey

00:01 All right. My name is Marie Maffey. I'm 69 years old for a few months. Today's date is November 22, 2023 and I am recording in Charlottesville. My conversation partner's name is Flannery.

00:16 And hi, My name is Flannery. I am 23 years old. Today's date is November 22, 2023, and I am recording in Charlottesville. My conversation partner's name is Marie.

00:28 All right. And Marie Henry. I'll just start off by asking, why did you each want to do this conversation today? Do you want to go? Or I'll go. I can go just because I wrote it down.

00:39 Wonderful.

00:39 Because that's just how I have to do it. What? I felt that this was an opportunity to support the mission of one small step in combating the painful polarization taking place in our lives at communities and and our families. Unfortunately, that's why I thought it was.

00:59 Just a cool opportunity. I feel like I have generally pretty homogenous like groups, especially as a college student. And so I wanted to have a facilitated conversation to get outside of my comfort zone.

01:11 Awesome. Awesome. And Marie, if you could just start out by reading Flannery. I'm a UVA nursing student about to graduate. I'm originally from Minnesota. Minnesota. But came to the south for school. I wasn't raised Christian, but I came to Christ in high school and that relationship is the most salient factor in my life. I'm trying to figure out how to live out my faith and convictions as Jesus would in an increasingly polarized and reactive world.

01:45 And then Marie's bio. Hi. My husband and I are transplants from the D.C. area. I have six children from my first marriage and he has four from his. I was once a Republican and practicing Catholic. Now I see both as being responsible for the downward spiral of our democracy and comprised of hypocrites. The earlier character counts slogan used by the Republican Party is laughable. They would label Jesus Sermon on the Mount as commissocialist. I dread the outcome of the upcoming elections. Mt Green comma E. Well, I ran.

02:17 Out of space words. It was Marjorie Taylor Greene and Herschel Walker, but I had to cut it down because you've done enough so well. There's a question here. I liked it said what would I like to know more about you? Yeah, and I'd like to hear about your upbringing in Minnesota. You mentioned an irreligious household and did this mean no church? And what influenced your embrace in high school of Christ? And what does your family think about it all yeah. So that's a lot. It's a lot.

03:01 Yeah. So I was not raised religious. I have a mom, dad, sister. My dad is pretty staunchly atheist, agnostic. He. When he was an English teacher, he taught in Chattanooga, Tennessee. So his experience and exposure to, like, white evangelicals in the 70s really turned him off from religion. And I, in retrospect, now I can say, like, oh, it was Christians that he was objecting to, but that kept him from giving, like, giving Jesus a chance, basically, kind of, you know, because it's like. It's like the Gandhi coat. Like, I. I don't care for your Christian, or like, I like your Christ, but I don't care for your Christian.

03:40 Yes, that's right.

03:41 He said that. Yeah.

03:42 What was he raised?

03:44 Nothing. I think, like, my. I think my grandpa is, like, Irish Catholic but not practicing. And then my grandma has a somewhat complicated history with religion or relationship to religion.

03:57 And your mom, she was raised Christian.

03:59 So my mom's side of my family are Evangelical Christians, I would say, or Protestant. Yeah.

04:04 Oh, that's an interesting combo, your mom and dad.

04:06 Yeah, yeah. But she herself is not practicing or belief in anything, really. Yeah. And so I think, you know, I was raised in that environment, and so I didn't question it. So, like, that was my formative worldview. So I thought Christians were stupid because I was like, how could you believe in a God that lets bad things happen? And all those things and questions that I still ask. Sure. But it also meant that I'd never, like, read the Bible or anything. In my first year of high school, I went to a Catholic school, and so that was the first place where I read the Bible. And I learned that it was actually, like, there was history behind it. And I love, like, cause and effect and that kind of thing. So looking at, like, Old Testament prophecy and then, like, how it was fulfilled in Jesus and then learning about the person of Christ, and I was just like, I love this guy. This is so wonderful. And it was truly, like, good news for me, I think, especially at that time in my life. My parents have been supportive of me throughout, and I think that they're like, tolerance sort of for, like, faith and religion and kind of asking those questions has grown as well. And so my dad's a firefighter, too, and so he sees a lot of. And then, like, being in healthcare, we talk a lot about. My dad is.

05:16 Your dad is.

05:17 And then I am English professor and became a firefighter.

05:20 Became a firefighter in Minnesota.

05:23 Yeah. This is all over the world.

05:25 Yeah. Interesting. And Your siblings.

05:28 She. I have a younger sister, and she just started her freshman year in California. UC Santa Cruz. So we're all all over the coast. All over the place.

05:39 Isn't that Catholic school, Santa Cruz? No, I'm thinking sc. Yeah. So you're taught by nuns, or.

05:52 Was I. Yeah. Oh, no, it was just. I don't even think all the teachers were actually Catholic.

05:56 No, usually. Not anymore. Yeah, I had. I had up in Maine, nuns with. They were full daily. Yeah. And they had the full habit, you know.

06:09 Yeah.

06:11 They were French Canadian. And we always tried to get them to say third because they said turd, you know, and that, you know, your kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Yeah. So that's okay. Okay, so it's your turn if you.

06:26 Have something you want to ask. Yeah, well, I kind of wanted to ask a similar question. Like, having been raised Catholic, I assume you were raised Catholic, so just kind of like the trajectory of your relationship to religion.

06:36 Oh, yeah.

06:36 And then maybe separately, also relationship to God, because I think that the two can be separated.

06:41 Okay. All right. Well, I was raised Catholic. There's. I went to church. We lived in Maine, into the Appalachian Trail. And my memories of church are warm. But they were all like, the songs and the ceremony and everything. And went to a Catholic school until it was closed after my seventh grade. Money reasons. Then I went to public schools until I went to college, and that was at Catholic U. I could have gone to Mass in my pajamas in the basement and didn't go. I was there. It was Catholic U. But I wasn't. I was there for other reasons, and I wish I could say it was my education starting off, but it wasn't. So as far as what I thought about. So at first, my religious experience was it was my family, you know, it was just the war. It's what we did. It's just what we did. It's what we did. And then when I was expecting my first child, my husband, who was also Catholic, and probably his trajectory was very similar to mine, he said, you know, okay, we got to get serious about this now. You know, we're bringing a child into the. We were only 22. I got pregnant my fourth year. I had changed my majors, but it was still my fourth year. I was going to have two more. And so we started to go to church, a Catholic church. And then about a. And I found myself just going. And, you know, I'd just be checking out everybody, you know, it wasn't really a real deep experience. And then I. We went on a marriage Encounter. We went on a marriage encounter because I was like, marriage is supposed to be more than this. And I remember my roommate in college had babysat for aunt and uncle who had been facilitators on a marriage encounter. I don't know if you're familiar with marriage encounter. It's to make good marriages better and you learn conversation skills, et cetera, et cetera.

09:08 Is it like a retreat?

09:09 It's a retreat, yeah. And this was. It was in a snowstorm. It ended up being a Super bowl weekend. But anyway, we went and there's a spiritual aspect to it. And I remember the first mass I went to after that was like the first time it had any real meaning to me. So from there. And somebody in that group was in a prayer group. So invite me to go to prayer group. And that's where everything changed. And I will say, I have to say I'm not as comfortable speaking on those words anymore. That's when I developed a relationship with God and Jesus and my spirituality meant more. And I bought my Bible, which I got my Bible at home, it could fall apart. And bought a dulcimer and led the music. And then a priest came from the local Catholic Charismatic community to talk to our group about this education course they were starting. And so I came home and said, hey, Dan, you want to go to this? Because he wasn't involved in other things. And so he said, yes. We ended up getting involved with this community, Mother of God, Catholic charismatic community. And it was our lives and kids. I didn't let my, you know, there were good parts about it. There were good parts about it. The people we met and the good people we met. There was also many of us. A lot of people came to see that there were two. There were cult like teachers to it. And anyway, we pulled away from that. Other things in the family were going on. A son with depression. Anyway, there was a confluence of things that sort of pulled us away. And I slowly just lost my faith. It's like here we were sincerely seeking God. I was sincerely seeking God in my marriage. I had the Pope's encyclicals on my bookshelf. And I tried, we both tried. And I guess became disillusioned and so. And then marriage had broken up. I've been working hard on it ever since that first year. And that's why I suggested mother, you know, what a retreat. And then I became even more distant. And then when my then remarried, when my husband and I moved to Waynesboro from the D.C. area, we registered at the church And I actually liked the parish priest. 2016 came and plus there's. With Catholic church, there's stuff I can't, you know, I just, physics wise, you know, I just can't see. I just can't see Mary, you know, I can't see the assumption, you know, into the clouds. And the whole birth control thing caused us a lot of pain. Glad for all my six children, but yeah. And realizing that 56% of Catholics, my mother one of them, voted for Trump. Seeing the evangelical Christian embrace of Trump, I think the present evangelical movement, there are exceptions and I've read them, have done more harm to Christianity than any Muslim, whatever, anything. And I just see sheer hypocrisy. And to say it disgusts me and saddens me is. So that's. Does that answer your question?

14:29 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

14:30 And now I still, I say grace, I pray. I don't know who I'm praying to. I am happy with mystery. I'm not an atheist. I think an atheist is just at the other end of the even, you know, evangelical. You're going to hell if you don't believe in Jesus. I do. I think they're. It's the same thing. So I am very happy to live with mystery. I am happy to believe in the divine of some kind. There are many, many paths. Many, many paths. And I. So yeah.

15:13 Can I ask what your children's relationship is like to either like the capital C church or like God in church.

15:20 Oh, it's funny because. So some of them more than others were influenced by living in a Catholic charismatic community and not dating and oh God, you can't talk to her and blah, all this stupid stuff. And they're the ones who are more most antagonistic. There is only one of my children that would call himself religious and will go to church and he is the one that flew a Trump flag. And to me, that says it all.

16:09 Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.

16:10 Yes, sure. Good night. Took my blood pressure medication today. Oh, let's see. I guess I could just ask, well, just, well, who's been the most influential person in your life?

16:46 I mean, I feel like the Kappa answer would be Jesus.

16:49 I'm not actually. I knew you were going to say that. I knew the first was going to come to your mind and then you're going to say, well, the right answer is yeah.

17:04 I feel like it's a toss. Someone in my family, you can put it that way.

17:08 They either aren't here or maybe they'll never hear this, so.

17:11 Oh, yeah, well, I Don't. I mean, they don't care anyway. No. Like, my sister's my best friend, but I think. I wouldn't say she's probably the most influential. She's just like my best friend, the person that I love the most. I think it's a toss up between either my dad or my great aunt who is my dad's. My dad's aunt because his biological mom died when he was 2 and his. Oh yeah, she won't listen to this, but yeah, his stepmom is pretty emotionally abusive and like very complicated family history on that side. And so my. My great aunt kind of is his builder figure. Yeah.

17:48 Gold in the blanks. Big time. Yeah.

17:49 And she has a really interesting like life trajectory too, because they're raised, I think like my great, great, great. Some number of greats. Grandfather was one of Brigham Young's like 12 apostles. So like Mormon.

18:02 Oh, yeah.

18:02 On that side. And then my great aunt is lesbian and so she was like, I don't know at what point, but she definitely left the Mormon Church.

18:09 Yeah, I guess you might have to.

18:11 Yeah, I think it was y. Maybe less graceful and less by choice. And her partner is Jewish and my great aunt herself is like spiritual. Really loves Jesus, but also really loves Buddha or like Anne really loves Buddha. And she worked as a nurse and a social worker during the AIDS epidemic and has been really a good sounding board for myself as I kind of try to figure out what I want to do professionally because I'm interested in social work, I'm interested in social justice and activism. And like as a nurse, it can often feels like you're just like a cog in the machine or like having just like an individual level impact isn't enough when there's such structural problems in the world. And she's just very level headed and she's so, so wise and so.

19:01 Sounds like somebody I'd want to know.

19:02 Oh, I think you all would get along well. Yeah, she's wonderful. She lives out in California. So my sister is actually spending Thanksgiving with her this year, which I'm like jealous of. But I think. Yeah, I think that I would say she's probably the most influential person. Yeah.

19:16 Yeah. Yeah. Let's see. What.

19:24 Can I ask you one?

19:25 Yeah, you can. You've got more just off the top of your head.

19:29 No. What. What gives you hope?

19:32 What gives me hope? I do believe in the inherent goodness of man. One day I'll be dead and it won't matter. I'll care about my progeny. What gives me hope? I'LL tell you, people like you give me hope. And it's not because of Jesus. And I have nothing against Jesus. One of the questions down here is, could you just briefly describe your personal political values? And I wrote, I think the words of Jesus in the fifth chapter of Matthew as applied to a party's political platform and approach to societal needs pretty much sums it up. You know what it is? Blessed are the poor in spirit, for there is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are the meek, for they shall possess the Lamb. Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice, for they shall have their fill. And I can't see one thing in a Republican platform that illustrates this. And so there are good people out there. The news, you don't hear about it because that's not what sells. I recommend a good book. It's called Hate Incorporated. And it is. It's both sides. Both sides. You have to always remember that a news platform is first and foremost business and entity. And the purpose of a business is to make money. And so it's always, how can we rev them up? How can we divide them? How can we get them keep coming back? And I don't know how I get on that track. But anyway, I hope you're good with editing. So you're what gives me hope.

21:55 Yeah.

21:57 There are good people. I do believe that truth will prevail. Doesn't mean that there won't be pain in the midst of it. Doesn't mean there won't be truth deniers always as there are with. For God's sake. Holocaust deniers who believe that that didn't exist. You look puzzled.

22:38 Yeah, I can't believe that.

22:40 Oh, I thought you. You look puzzled. I thought. Have you ever heard that? Have you not heard that there are people who believe.

22:47 No.

22:48 You have not heard that there are people who don't believe in the Holocaust?

22:52 No.

22:54 Oh, my. See, this is why we live in separate worlds. You have. Correct? Yeah, Yeah. I read a book about it also. My first time finding out that that was. Exists out there in the world. It does. Yeah. It was through a class that I read the title now that this scholar who actually became very popular in this narrative that he had as well. Yeah.

23:21 That's so scary.

23:22 Yes. But you know, it's. You understand why despite the election, deniers, you know, there are people who. They just believe what they want to believe. So you'll always have that. But I still think truth will eventually prevail. I also believe life is there's. Lots of misery in the world and if you believe that you're supposed to have a perfectly happy carefree life, you're doomed to be disappointed and unhappy. It's just the way it is. There's a lot of joy. I have a lot of joy in my life. But it's not as if it hasn't been pain. I'm sure there's been pain in your young little life. 23 years old. I wish I was not composed at 23. Self possessed. Yeah, I thought you'd be different. I was expecting a Jesus farm girl.

24:29 That's my aspiration. No, just kidding. No, I appreciate that.

24:35 Anyway, you clearly are multi layered and.

24:41 I feel like maybe that's the point of this whole thing is that all people are.

24:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:47 Which is wonderful. And I think it's a deficit of society and like probably maybe I can only speak really to America but that we don't have time to engage in these type of conversations to actually expose those. So like if we weren't able to sit down and you weren't able to hear me express like what my faith means to me, I could just be a Jesus farm girl to you, you know?

25:09 Yeah. The thing is I, because of where I've come from, I do understand what your faith means to you.

25:15 Right.

25:15 I do. I was surrounded by many. They had to babysit our kids. Many young women.

25:21 Yeah.

25:21 Like you. Many young women who also put their lives on hold and were. And we're paired up with the wrong person to marry. I have strong feelings about the Supreme Court pick. I know who she is. I know where she comes from. I know I. Yeah. Notre Dame cult. I've been to a whole big prayer weekend at Notre Dame. My uncle who just died was the head of the geology department at Notre Dame. And yeah, I should. I mean some of these things I don't know if it's too provocative to ask and some things I would be afraid to ask. I'm actually afraid to ask if you voted for Trump. It scares me because. Because I want to like you. One of the. I'm talking more it seems.

26:38 Go ahead, we got time.

26:40 Yeah, I suppose. Well, one of the. What is the most influential pro person in my life? I would say is my mother.

26:47 Okay.

26:48 I remember in high school friends were saying all you do is talk about your mother. I did have a father. I love my father but my mother was more of the dominant personality. She's still living 95. So I wrote here I'm one of eight. The reason my mother. What I said about my mother is with a zeal to live life fully. My mother has been an example of creativity, industry, and commitment to her family. Unfortunately, in 2006 and beyond, I watched her toss aside everything she taught me about truth, character and decency. That has been a big disappointment. I no longer waste my breath trying to convince her of anything not vetted on Fox News. One of my sisters who, praise God, I brought to the light. Yes, yes. She is married anyway, and she's now trying. She now sends my mother these missives and. Are you watching this? You should watch this. I said, don't waste your breath. Don't waste your breath. Before the next presidential election, she'll probably be dead, you know, and she lives in Maryland, so she. Democrats have more sway there. So that's been disappointment. But, yeah, she has influenced my life tremendously. The good, bad, and the indifferent. There are things, especially, as I said to her, there aren't enough lifetimes for my mother. I look at people who are wasting her life away, and I think, she could use your life. Why don't you just go keel over and give my mother that life? Because she'll use it. She'll use it. Two summers ago, she and her. Let's say if he would have been 96, she would have been 90. They drove from Maryland to Maine to go to my niece's wedding. They drove.

29:12 Wow.

29:12 Themselves. Themselves. Anyway, so there are those aspects of her. I get my love of reading from her. She loves Flannery O'Connor, too. Also get some of that stupid part of the Irish, you know, the comparing and not being so. Hey, mothers are a mixed bag. I once wrote a poem about motherhood, and it's like, you know, you start off, you're just this little girl. You're just this little girl. You're just yourself. And then you morph into mother. And there's a whole lot of responsibility there. You know, you're the top of every therapist. Sofa coat. My mother, my mother. You don't ask for that. You don't ask to be. The hard part isn't the. The diapers, the sleepless nights, anything. I mean, the hard part is being the mother. I mean, unless you're a complete egomaniac who really wants to have that place in another person's psyche, but you know, it's there just because the mere fact that you're a mother six times.

31:16 Yeah.

31:18 Yeah.

31:18 Feel like you've had a lot of experiences.

31:21 Oh, I have, yeah. They're all wonderful. Philip, Andrew, Peter, Christine, Nick and Stephen. So at One point, I was the youngest mother at Kindergarten Roundup, and then I was the oldest mother at Kindergarten Roundup and saw the same genetic pool. It was all with my first husband.

31:42 Okay.

31:43 My present husband has four children.

31:45 Right, yeah, you mentioned that.

31:47 So, yeah. Yes. Some of the tensions and conversations with family members, like, especially, you know, political side of things. Werner, do you find yourself also kind of needing to have these conversations and maybe it's hard to have those kind of conversations with close family about politics.

32:18 Yeah, I feel like. No, because I. To rest assured, to not vote for Trump. Oh, yeah. But. And I think, as. This is just a separate thing, but I think something that I struggle with is doing, like, character condemnation based on voting status. Because in the same way that it's easy for us to judge someone who voted for Trump, they do the same thing, and we both blame each other, and neither one is conducive to conversation or reconciliation either. So that's just like, a side note that I don't know if you have thoughts on that, but I think in terms of. With my own family, we're all pretty, like, liberal or progressive. I think I generally lean, like, apolitical because I'm still trying to figure out the relationship of politics and faith in my life. And, like, I don't have faith really in a political system solving our problems, but this is also the world we exist in and operate in. So I can't be, like, escapist either. So trying to figure out, like, what that means. But I feel pretty. I mean, I don't know if it's a fortunate thing to all agree and to not have that kind of conflict.

33:39 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

33:41 Makes dinner conversations more pleasant, I would imagine.

33:44 Yes, yes. And at some point, you just have to. Not everybody, I suppose, can breach the divide and overcome the feeling that you've just supported the demise of our democracy and our culture as we know it. It's a hard thing to do, but I think it's worth doing. I have a. Not the one I just mentioned, another sister, one of eight, not girl, all girls. And she is a. She's one of the closest to. Once I was in college because we both have kids at the same time. She first went to a prayer group. We bought our Bibles together, and she went off the path, but then she got back on big time. She voted for Obama, but then she sure didn't. And she's an evangelical Christian, and she could probably cite every single word in the Bible. And, you know, she thinks, you know, she's at her home she has a big poster of the. Was it Aslan the lion? The lion Aslan, you know, he's coming back, he's coming anyway. And so for. And I was also born on her birthday. So we shared a lot. And for a time there, like the year before last, I didn't even for the very first time, we didn't talk on our birthday. I didn't call her. And then some family stuff with my mother brought us together and I just decided. We both decided to put that aside. We buy mutual agreement. Nothing written. Do not talk religion or politics. She might say something joke. And I am just grateful to have her back as my sister. And so what I do is I just, I enter into our old space in our relationship and that feels good. It feels good. We danced a woolly bully at my brother's wedding. We're the only ones up dancing, but we will be the only ones. And Bruce Pink Cadillac. You're so young.

36:38 I know. I'm also not even hip with the current songs though either.

36:41 I feel like. Oh, yeah, Yeah. I don't know. Well, I for sure don't. But anyway, let's see. Well, do you feel misunderstood by people? I mean, you're at. I would consider uva, a somewhat liberal school, even though we're in Virginia country. So you must face. Oh, you're a Jesus.

37:12 You're.

37:13 You're a Jesus freak, right? What's that like?

37:18 I mean, so I think having been raised non Christian, I understand. Well, I don't fully understand the perspective of people who feel that way. But I do also take seriously the harm that Christians are doing and have done and that I think that there's a degree of like, ownership that needs to be taken for what has been done in the name of God. And knowing that like, I think there's a verse in the Bible where Paul talks about how like, we. He cannot disown himself and like, he being Jesus, like, referring to like us as like the body. And I quote that to my friends because it's hard because I, If I truly believe what I believe, like, I have to stand alongside those people that I disagree with the way that they're living. And I think that it's sometimes difficult but also low key. Like, Christians have done a lot worse too. So me feeling like, personally misunderstood, I think is less significant than understanding that people are valid in feeling and voicing those hurts. And I just wish that it wasn't at the expense of them, like, coming to like, learn about Jesus. Because I feel like even like You. You quoted him in your political ideology. You know, like, I think it's pretty hard to have an issue with him because he's.

38:40 That's the point.

38:41 Right, Exactly.

38:42 It's like, what I'm seeing isn't Jesus.

38:44 Exactly. And, And I think it's important to note that we have the same objections to the way that Christians that I identify with and that you don't are not living out the gospel. But that's something that I can't pretend isn't happening, but it's something that I want to have happen, which is why I still have faith, I guess.

39:06 So you must encounter in your Christian path and in your social path as a Christian with other Christians, people who are a little more conservative. Well, yeah, like believing. Yeah. Conservative who. Who think liberals are godless and. And are Trump supporters and would have no problem with what happened in Colorado Springs or, you know, who might not have thought it was so bad, the march in Charlottesville, you know. So what do you say to them?

39:57 I. That's the hard part, because I. Well, a. Don't have very many conversations because I feel like, in general, I'm not in spaces interacting with them. And I read an article by a Christian pastor who has tried to, like, infiltrate the Christian nationalist groups, basically. And he's like, I used. I can't. There's some, like, alliteration where he was like, I used to try to do this, but now I'm trying to actually just convert them. And I think the idea that, like, Jesus message is love, and so they are not acting out of love.

40:33 No.

40:33 And so trying to help them, like, convert to real, real Christianity and it's. That's a touchy thing because you can't judge someone else's salvation and blah, blah, blah. But just being, like, trying to help them see the discrepancy and the just, like, the vast divide between what they say they believe in and then what they are living out and who they support. Yeah.

40:57 And what, you know, that cretin among Cretan. And here Nancy Pelosi has been married for what, 56 years. She met her husband at Georgetown. And you have. I can remember. I was listening. I was on the way to my mother just a number of years ago, and Pope Francis was visiting, and I wanted to get to her house and turn on the tv and. And I guess he was at the Capitol. Anyway, Nancy Pelosi came on. My mother practically spit. And I. But she voted for Donald Trump, and I challenged her on that. I mean, here's another. A Catholic Woman, she has five kids or something, married to the same man all these years, has probably been the best, most effective speaker of the House ever. And anyway, I diverged. But, yeah, nothing makes sense anymore. My mother would have laughed at the likes of Donald Trump. So I guess, like, I don't go to church, even though I like to sing, I like the songs. And I probably wouldn't go anywhere else because we try the Unitarian Universalist church that we can walk to. After Covid broke, I mean, after it ended, opened up, things opened up and it was all, they're all good people. They're all good people and they, you know, they have hearts for, you know, they're civic minded. But if I want that, I'll just go to a meeting. If I am. If I am focusing on my faith, I want transcendence. And so that didn't work for me.

43:05 You don't want, like a TED Talk?

43:07 No, no, you know, yeah, I want. I want the songs. I want the mystery. And, you know, I know faith is important to you. It is actually very important to me. I've always. I've been a seeker all my life. And I will hear that somebody is like, John Meacham is a most wonderful historian, worth reading. And he'll reference his faith. And there are people who find a good space. I just continue, despite once thinking I knew it, to have that faith which clearly informs their decisions, their life, and gives them comfort. I used to think, we're told faith is a gift. This is back in my days with the community. I was like, wait, wait a minute. I remember I had. It was at some group meeting. Faith is a gift. How come it feels like we've got to go buy the present, get the box, wrap it up, and then give it to ourselves? We have to do all this stuff. That's not what a gift is. That's not a gift. You know, you got to do all this work to get it. So I was like, faith a gift. We were told we were supposed to till the ground and till the soil was, I know, terrible. But I'm glad that you have faith that sustains you and clearly informs you in the way that your specific faith and just about every major religion has the Beatitudes in some form. And so I'm just glad to meet somebody whose faith is informing them in what I, in my wisdom would say is the right way in a way that reflects the truth of it. And the hypocrisy is just too hard. And I really don't know how you navigate that. I Don't want to sit in a pew with people who are majority voted for Trump or planned to again. I, during the election, I had just read an autobiography of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was put to death in the camps. And the Nazi party originally embraced Lutheran Church because that was a state church only, until they didn't have any use for them any longer, and then really none of their atheists. And Dietrich Bonhoeffer was one of the very early voices against the Third Reich. And I remember when Trump was running, he met with a group of evangelicals down in D.C. who were all applauding, et cetera, et cetera. And I thought, you stupid people, this is the same. It's the exact same. He's just using you in the same way that Hitler used the Lutheran church in the 1930s. And I could say the Republican Party, you're as stupid as the chancellors in Germany at the time thought that they could just get this guy in there and he'd be their puppet. And he ended up running the show. It's exactly what Trump did with the Republican Party, hijacked it. And so I keep going around to politics, but, I mean, I understand, as you mentioned, you know, that this is something that's just become a little bit more prominent with time, which leads me, I think, to like, a sort of two questions. The first would be you had briefly mentioned how in the past maybe your mother wouldn't have kind of reacted a certain way when you were telling the story and that she might have laughed it off seeing another politician from a different party. I'd be curious to know what, like, where have you seen that sort of gradual shift towards the more polarization that we've seen today? Like, is there. Was it something that just hit you at once? Was it something where you slowly saw a shift in the narrative from the party standpoint, or how it kind of was putting itself out there? And I guess the second part would be, I know, Flannery, you mentioned that you don't find yourself running into a lot of the more super conservative perspectives.

49:22 Especially around family members.

49:25 And for you, Marie, you don't really find yourself wanting to sit in the same pew as somebody who might have maybe lived with Trump. But then how do you kind of see us in a better tomorrow? How do we then move past maybe this gradual kind of polarization, the point that we're really at?

49:47 So I hope that wasn't too much.

49:49 But please feel free to take the time to think about it. I'm just curious to see kind of that trajectory in your guys minds kind of based on everything. Do you have something right now or Go right ahead, I'm hogging this.

50:04 No, I like listening to you.

50:07 You can come stay with me when you use pews. Okay. I can sit at a winery and know that the people I'm talking to are Trumpers. I do not want to practice my faith. It's too raw, it's too important. I can't do it. But friendly. My next door neighbors, I'm, you know, I'm sure they are, they are evangelical Republicans, I'm sure. But we get along fine. We get along fine. But I have said I, if I am friends with somebody already and their political views differ from mine, that's one thing I don't have like casual friendships. I'm not the person who's just going to want to go out to lunch, just to go out to lunch with a bunch of ladies, whatever. I'll go out to lunch with somebody I care about, spending time with. I have no interest and maybe this doesn't. I have no interest in giving myself, my heart, my time to a person who is, who thinks so differently from me along lines, political lines especially. It's one thing to the previous Republican Party that was never an issue. Never an issue, Never, never, never an issue. But with Trump and Trumpism, I actually made up a very crude word when I was lying in bed the other morning, which I won't say because it used one of the one anyway, not on tape, I'm not going to say it but it starts, nevermind. So anyway, so I can be friendly with people who I know just with a few words, you know, some things. But I'm always darn grateful when I've met new people who I like and like new neighbors. We have. And it's like I wonder, I wonder, wonder. And then you find out, oh God, thank God, thank God they're not Trumpers. I mean, you know, that's just the way it is. 69 years old. I don't want to spend it with people who are happy to see our democracy go down the toilet. I mean I will go, I visit my mother and my sister when I visit my mother, they're all in Maryland. But I'm happy to share how I think in a way that hopefully is not too off putting. So I can be off putting.

53:58 And.

53:58 Do what I can. And that's why I'm here. That's why I'm here. Okay, I'm listening to you.

54:08 Okay. I think, well, so my view of myself and then I think My view of other people is informed by my faith. And so, like. And when I. I'm going to use the word sin, but I don't mean that whatever political leaning is inherently sinful, but I just mean that the nature of man, I believe, is that we are all sinners, and I'm not excluded from that. And I am told to pray for my enemies and I'm told to turn the other cheek when I'm wronged. And I think that that argument, the idea of turning the other cheek is nuanced because, like, I'm a white female of the middle class. And so I haven't. Like, I haven't. I have the privilege of not having experienced a lot of things that would actually make it difficult to turn my cheek when, like, abstract ideologies hurt my feelings. You know what I'm saying?

55:03 Yeah, yeah.

55:04 And so I feel comfortable saying that for myself. And that is, I guess, how I would view coming, like, the better. The idea of a better tomorrow is, I think, more humility and not putting ourselves in the place of kind of God, like, neither judge nor jury kind of thing, and having that appreciation that, like, the person that I disagree with also disagrees with me. And maybe neither of us are right, but at the end of the day, like, Jesus tells me to love them anyway. And I think love is also can be a. Not, like, trite, but I think it can be misused. I think it takes different meanings and different contexts.

55:50 I love your shoes.

55:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

55:52 But I know what you mean. Yeah.

55:54 And so I think, yeah, that is how I have somewhat hope for.

56:03 I guess I think we can be accepting. Well, not accept. I don't know. We can be kind and not judge, though I have a hard time not judging, but that's the Irish. I'm going to play my mother. But still, as I said for myself, there's limited time in life. It's like I don't. You know, there are people of different interests than I do. There are people who only read romance novels. And, you know, there are just some people I want to hang out with and some I don't. So.

56:44 Yeah.

56:45 And certainly predates. Actually, I do have a good friend, too. It was at a group. It was. She was Mother of God. She's a dear friend. Still. I remember her. She confessed to the group that she was. She read romance novels. Oh, my God, Geez. At least that wasn't as. That wasn't as revealing as the other person who she was confessing about masturbating. She was like, oh, give Me a break. Give me a break. I once said to a priest, you know what, who left the priesthood. He was also in the community, left the priesthood, went back to Calgary, married high school sweetheart. I once said, you know what? God gave us our own fingers and hands. Oh, really? I can only imagine him up there thinking, Jesus. Anyway. Yes. Yes. Anyway. I've thought a lot about a lot of things, apparently.

57:52 Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. Feedback.

57:54 No, it's okay.

57:54 Okay. Okay, cool.

57:57 Oh, what about. So what? Like, so the, as you said, the other side of the aisle. What was the exact. Do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different views than you from the other side of the aisle. Not, you know, which. I guess we're talking politics here.

58:22 I don't think too much about it or I don't care what they think.

58:26 Too much. I suppose she is psychologically healthy.

58:32 I think my therapist would say otherwise, but. Oh, I appreciate that. I'm pleased to know why. Why I don't think about it too much. I mean, I think some of it has to do with who I've surrounded myself with. So, like I. The fellowships that I've been in, it's been very like Jesus centered. And I think that that's a way that you end up avoiding a lot of political debates is because it's like, well, let's focus on what we agree on. And then I think it gets complicated when you're like, but how are we hearing the same message and applying it to our lives and our worldview so differently. Yeah, but I think it's. I mean, and even the conversations that I've had where I've disagreed with people about, like abortion or about marriage and things like that, they've been close friends and so it's been like healthy debate. And I like trusted our disagreement almost and even like where we left it.

59:28 Yeah.

59:29 So I don't. Sorry, I don't remember.

59:31 They don't think you're a pause state who's going to hell?

59:34 No, because at the end of the day, like, our faith is the same, like.

59:37 Yeah.

59:38 Yeah.

59:39 Well, I don't know. I mean, some people would say. Is that really the. Jesus says. It says here in the Bible. Says here in the Bible. So a lot of things it doesn't say in the Bible as they say. But yeah. So I guess I. If like you mentioned your views on marriage, I would presume that you're. You don't have a problem with your aunt who's a lesbian, who's. Maybe she's married to a partner.

01:00:09 Yes, I would assume they are now.

01:00:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:11 So then back and forth.

01:00:12 Yeah. So that's. You don't. You don't think they're going to hell?

01:00:16 No.

01:00:17 Yeah. But you have friends say you were to. I don't know if you have a boyfriend, but if you did, and he believes as you do, maybe even more so in one direction. And you say you want to go visit your aunt in California and stay with she and her partner, her wife, how would you deal with somebody who then. Well, wait a minute. We can't do that. We can't. We can't do that. We can't bake them a cake either.

01:01:01 Yeah, well, I think that's conflating, like, moral stances with, like, salvation, because I don't think, like, we can't decide who goes to hell or not. And I think that if my boyfriend believed that, we would have to have a serious theological conversation.

01:01:20 Well, the thing is, so many evangelical Christians, that's exactly what they believe. I remember I'm no longer a hospice volunteer, but I was. And the person who was in charge of volunteers, she was an evangelical Christian. She's very sweet, very sweet. But she also very sweetly did acknowledge that I'm going to hell when I said something. You know, I'm sure my sister thinks I'm going to hell. My mother doesn't, because she's Catholic. She's not an evangelical Christian. She just thinks maybe I'm going to purgatory for a little bit. She thinks she is, too, for, you know, the gossipy things she says. Whatever. So, yeah, I mean, what I would think is you keep hanging out with the group you're hanging out with, you're going to have people who reject your aunt. Oh, yeah. And see, that's why I wouldn't want to be with people who would reject a loved one of mine. I just wouldn't. That's why I don't want to go to church. You know, I know people who have. Who say Democrats just want to kill babies and a justification for why they're Republican. And then, you know, and then turns out they've paid for their daughter's abortion. And not in the far past, like, you know, in the same timeframe, they're saying democrats just want to kill babies. And I guess I just see. I see that as not loving and hypocrisy. And you yourself, clearly, you're more like a Unitarian minister. I mean, truly. Or like a. Yeah, like a. Oh, what's her name? She writes novels. She's a Christian. She's got dreads. Oh. She lives in California. She's very irreverent. Faith is very important to her. Forget her name. She's a character. But anyway, so I know that it's very, very possible to have faith and not embrace all that ugliness. I just don't know how to not get smeared by it. You know, it's like, lie down with dogs and get up with fleas. Something like that. Yeah, something like that.

01:04:27 We understand what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:29 I get my metaphors wrong all the time. I say, what's a metaphor? But anyway, yeah.