Mary Anthony and Kathryn Adisman

00:05 My name is Katherine a Tasman. I am 57 this year.

00:15 The date is June 1st 2006. I'm at Grand Central Station and my relationship to my interviewee Mary Anthony is that she is and was a teacher of mine.

00:38 My name is Mary Anthony. I am 89 years old. It is June 1st 2006. We are in Grand Central terminal.

00:49 And Kathryn was one of my favorite students and the Nativity became a good friend.

00:58 Mary you surprised me is always thank you for saying that. It means so much to me that we are here in this booth today and I would like to make this an opportunity for you to introduce yourself to people who don't know who you are and

01:21 What would you tell someone who doesn't know the name Mary Anthony? Who are you? I would say let's go back to the beginning that when I was 2 years old. I had cousins not Frozen sisters, but cousins and it's Christmastime. They were ripping open their presents and I was dancing around the Christmas tree. So it began that long ago and even soon after that. I be in doing something called choreography for my cousin. That's why I say you come to the Venture you go down on your knees you fall here. So it started way way way way way back and I feel that chooses you

02:03 You don't choose art and I was chosen to be a dancer and that's what I became.

02:11 That brings me to a question I was thinking about

02:15 For myself and for you it was there a moment in your life when you can remember that you realized I'm an artist and I am particular kind of was there a moment in your childhood or even later that you knew?

02:34 How did you know how did you realize that this wasn't a choice for you? This was something they had no choice while I think it was as I began to study. The two teacher said I had that they began to say you have a talent and you must realize it and that was when it was coming from the outside to me and then young to come inside me out was this when you first came to New York because I read something that you said my life began when I came to New York. What was your life like before that we were from Kentucky to and will you an only child her? I was an only child this I just I think I said I'd had a number of cousin all the same age. My mother had two sisters and they all had children at approximately the same time. So I had cousins to keep me from being spoiled. I hope right. But anyway in Kentucky I had a teacher

03:34 High School who had seen Mary Vigman she had to study with him. She had seen her so she taught modern dance is Newport Kentucky and I was her star pupil. And also when I was very young about 5 years old, I became very very ill and nobody knows exactly what the truth was but I was in bed for three months and I'm eventually began to to get better. But the doctor said you have to give her an incentive to go on living you would he have to do that. So there were things in Newport that we're all done with United States called gymnasiums and my mother took me to a gymnasium and it this is place with rings and parallel bars and all kinds of equipment which I hate. Hate it. But anyway, they also had an Irish dance group and I became a member of the Irish dance group, and that was when I really knew that I loved.

04:34 We performed so we I love the sound of audiences copy so it went way back to playing life in Newport, Kentucky

04:44 There's another interesting things that you call your company or your I guess it's your company's call it Mary Anthony Dance Theater rather than Mary Anthony Dance Company. In the reason for the yes, very early on I saw Katina text me the news Greek company where they spoke but they have so that anybody who works with me if they weren't after they had to be able to move reading very very well and all my dances had to learn how

05:22 I won't even use the word act. I will use the word to be that one of my very close friends was talking to my daughter also taught at HP, and she was in a play called. Mrs. Klein and there was a young actress from HB with her and I often used as an example that the young actress was acting and Goethe was being

05:52 And that was why I was sent to my company members. I want you to be I don't need to buy some of that reminds me of a quote from you and I have a lot of famous quotes tucked away. And one of them is I think you said I teach life. I don't teach dance I teach life. Well, I hope I do dances come to me and say how can I improve my desk? I answer is improve your living.

06:19 And I believe that I think that any honest has to fill fill themselves from the other Arts a dancer needs to go to museums. They need to read poetry. They need to look nature. They need to watch people on the street watch how they walk so that if they want to find a character they have all these tools besides just the dance steps. Let's pretend for a moment that someone from the 22nd century is listening to this and they don't know what modern dance is or even what dances or what do you know what it is that you did? How would you place yourself in the context of twentieth-century dance your influences and and

07:08 Also, you might even there so much here, but just just to just get of it. Give a capsule impression of where you see yourself in just the context of your particular.

07:24 Discipline. Well, I would say that man moved before he spoke.

07:30 It goes way way back to that time and I think that even now in little villages in Italy if a baby is born they dance with somebody dies they dance and in Africa, there's a beautiful ritual where when somebody dies they dance to make the soul go up to the top of the mountain. So the new child can come down dancing. This is kind of universal that these days I worry about the way people are dancing because they are not doing Circle dances or dances of communication things that makes people happy and be together there just by themselves.

08:11 And I think that's very sad turn around. You know that people go back to the kind of social dancing that America had folk dances bring up a couple of things one is that you have still this marvelous Studio that is a home with a home for me. When I came back to New York in 1982 and my family basically close their doors to me and I want to touch on something that's in the film that shocked me about your own family and may have a bearing on what it is. That is the nature of your great contribution to a host of of dancers that have their carrying on in the city Ron K Brown. You can mention a lot of names, you know, all of them nothing on each hand, but but but getting back to this idea of home and what you are what you contributed.

09:11 I just like you did talk about your studio a little bit because I want to focus the interview. There's been a documentary film made about you when you turned 80 you had a feature article in dance magazine and and all that is accessible to people but what?

09:31 Made you have the studio that you didn't abandon when it almost was you were almost almost lost.

09:40 But I spoke too much but whatever triggers you that you know in terms that I can dance and being in what that trying to Eliza l'homme I think it was because my own home was so distraught and I had such a big fan of a kind of bad time and my Early Childhood so that when I sit as you said I came alive when I came to New York and I went on but I also wanted to make a studio a home that there are several studios in the city. That is so sanitary that you feel if you drop a Kleenex you going to ruin that and my Studios just the opposite is very cluttered and I keep it that way purposely so that the dancers will sit and talk about art and life and death and I think that's the difference between my studio. I'd like to quote one of your former students and a company member Evelyn Shepherd and I think that I'd have to move papers around to say this, but that Ellen Show

10:40 That you what Mary Anthony was all about was a home and creative a place to create which was identical for you the two things right and

10:53 We don't need to go into you. I know you fled your own home right and when you came to, New York.

11:04 Scene is interesting to me. Is that you have you opened your studio? And what year?

11:11 1954 right and you are still at 7:36 Broadway on the 7th floor, right? Despite the fact the 1988. Would you like to go into what happened in 1988 that almost threatened your survival and also affected ahold the dance community and all you spend dancers were no toys for one thing big spaces dancing to choreograph and I had a lot of very big lost and I lived there and somebody lived in that space from the time that I got it in 1969 until up into the 80s, but there was an organization called The Loft board which was to protect people who lived in love but they designated me as commercial because I talked to dance and I got an income from TG does the never was enough to pay the rent, but that didn't matter to them.

12:11 So I had a very very very difficult time through the courts. There was one member of the one of the things that they lost for the said was that's my studio didn't look like a home. I didn't have a kitchen that didn't have the bedroom and it did have all the amenities of home should have and only one member in The Lost Boys said, it's quite possible that Miss Anthony's Home is very different from the one that you might have any Queens.

12:42 But it is still you know, you getting to something important that you symbolized a kind of New York that is becoming increasingly hard to find and do you want I'm interested in the fact that you are Survivor. I don't know how what your secret has been to surviving but also you are witness to all these changes that took place during your tenure if you want to speak about what's happened in life and how you see New York. Okay. Well, I was very lucky that I had.

13:17 Going to Fire Island as a way to get away from the studio because I went to a lady out there named Catelyn and I said to her all I want is a room and a bed and the chair because I have people around me all the time and I'm a little tiny plant place. They said we don't have any and then she said are you serious? And I said, yes, she said sit there and then when she came back she said I just might have on my property the guest house. That's all it has is a bed and a chair and a table.

13:56 And I Knew by the time we got to it that I was going to take you so that I was very lucky. I am only going into detail with it because what the studio got into trouble. I mean real trouble wear my red and one from 350 to 450 to 500 to 600. It eventually went to 3000 this woman named Martin kampmann gave me and started a money market account and she said don't touch it until you really need it. So that money market account is the one that was keeping me able to be in the studio when all the trouble began in The Refuge Antigo up and up and up and up and up and eat and you actually lost the the eviction was upheld. And otherwise you were supposed to be evicted in 1988 from your studio that you remain in to this day. And how do you retrieve you that? How did you do that that kind of famous people Jerome Robbins

14:56 That's one of them wrote letter to Mayor about how you can't do this to this any five year old woman and I think those letters and the fact that when we were going to be evicted the whole studio March down to City Hall and it was in the winter and they were on the steps It On The Ground around it and we waited and waited to see me a haircut should he didn't come out and he didn't come out I could see they were all getting freezing to death and very impatient. So I said we're going to do a class. So the top step started odesza all of these people who had come to support me did the class with paper to Rosslyn. Was there a great many of people from this Duty over there and eventually somebody came out and said mayor Koch will see you now and I realized too late that he wasn't there. It was just to stop me from doing what I was doing.

15:51 But the lucky fig was at the New York Times published publicize that and that was like it open sesame door. It went all over Donnelly New York been all over there is a great picture of you holding a class on the steps of City Hall. My question really is is would something like this even be possible or imaginable today in 2006. It's a Wonderful question cap. If I don't know whether it would be possible, but my other fear is that there isn't that kind of passion in young people today about anyting I don't blame them. I think the state of the world is so Dreadful, I feel if there is a depression over the whole world and particularly over New York City that whereas we were running on living and dances the kids have to walk dogs. Wait on tables working bars. Do all kinds of things for the privilege of dancing for nothing, but we didn't care about money. I want I was dancing with Tanya you mean $5 a year.

16:52 It really did think about it. We didn't we just loved it so much if we were just happy it's interesting because even my generation and Evelyn's generation Evelyn's just a few years younger than me in in the seventies when she was one of your company members and one of the Marchers on City Hall. She said we all banded together. There was a solidarity there was loyalty to one teacher and she said today it's all merged. There's no differentiation. She sees so even in the last 20 years there seems to be

17:31 Is I don't know if it's Unique to dance or I was going to ask you. What do you see the future of New York for the Arts compared to even 20 years ago. I mean you see students everyday everyday for how many years 50 years. So you have you know, a bird's-eye view of change in the city and in people's circumstances and attitude want to see I think we were very lucky in the 80s, which was just the time that you were there that there were a program is called the artist in movement in schools and it started in 1979 where Lucas holding and Bella's witzke and Marie Lewis and I was sent out into the school's to see what you could accomplish in art.

18:21 It's a way of teaching history has a way of teaching geography as a way of the academic work through dance and we were so successful at the next year. They began to send company is out into the school and it was really very wonderful because if you as a company. For artists and movement in schools residencies your company made enough for them to go on unemployment insurance and go on dancing now that is not true at all. Now it ended with President Reagan. That's why I couldn't get sentimental when they come to eat the whole country with more. Is it read it because I think you did.

19:01 Wherever he is he cut off those at those programs and that was a major transition for you in terms of your studio 2 because didn't you lose your actual apartment at 14th Street? And that's what forced you what year was that? I was evicted from the 14th Street Place in 1982. I'm not sure Kevin because you said that I wasn't living in the studio when you were there and you were there when I started in November of 82 Mullen it was I wasn't there yet. And I think I probably moved in officially in 1983. But as I said, somebody have been living in the studio from the time I had it 1969 Patrick, so I don't know if you remember Patrick, you know, he was like Apollo he was on the greatest guy ever had and he married somebody who is also a great dancer the company in there now out at the universe.

20:01 The cancer was he in your company had so many great teachers there to Anna sokolow Andre Ross Bertram Ross Ross Parkside animal only Daniel Maloney and we had people who you've even taught the scene of a missed ballet showed you a copy of those classes in the 80s where there was something going on every hour of the day. I see somebody doesn't care about dance. What? Why does it matter? What what what what difference do you want to make what does your life?

20:38 I'm going to the what is it that you really feel is your contribution and that you would like to leave with people to remember and to take into the future even if they're non-dancers because it should be mentioned that many of your students aren't dancers and yet they're they're fiercely loyal at to you and your class yet is very lucky at this point in time where it that the schedule has been so reduced that I have for people who have been in the studio over 20 years.

21:13 Taking class and they do it because they said it's like almost like a religion that we come into church and we come into your studio because you tell us what is exciting about life. What would you see in a museum what we should listen for in music so that I feel that that is one of the things that I hope I have done which is to tell people about the important aspects of living.

21:38 And Evelyn again called your space and inner sanctum a Sacred Space, but let's not get too sentimental because remember when you coming to your space, could you describe what you demand of people you are not allowing people to come in and sweatshirts with their hair loose with earrings. You're old-fashioned. And what is the value of that? What is it that that could you describe your classes to someone who would know cuz one of the things that's so interesting is the hybrid that you pull from everywhere all kinds of things for your warm up and also that you have music accompanying there's so much to it. And I love you too. Just describe a class that you teach not necessarily a company class what class is open to to help people who been there for 20?

22:30 What I do is I always give

22:34 In these lower-level classes exercises for your abdomen and your lower back because if they are in shape your whole body in shape and the thing that upsets me now when I walk down the street since I see the posture of people which is so negative. My other favorite thing now is young women with their belly sticking out all of it that I feel if these young people were forced to dress in the Edwardian dress for a single day. It would change their life and I have an example right now. We're ahead a new student who would train come Place El Cajon Studio, you couldn't believe how sloppy her or her hair and there's a song in my Studios that you have to wear a unitard.

23:24 And it is the professional attire of a dancer.

23:30 And sewed her first episode to finally get the unitard and I've been congratulating the other day. I brought her in front of the mirror. And I said, can you see how wonderful your body is now? Look at your hair with you again. Those are tools that you apply to it's a kind of discipline that you're exercising and it changes other areas of your life. I think that's what you're trying to say. And when you say I couldn't lust yes, that's why I'm saved if you dress sloppily you're thinking exactly

24:10 You can begin. What was very interesting because it's Martha Graham said that you have to fall in love with yourself. And if you can't do that start with the goldfish.

24:20 And I believe that to you see how I feel that you have to have a love of your own body. Like the Greeks went out and put olive oil on her skin then stood in the sun because they loved the human body. I have been very busy over the years Heidi the human body and I feel you have to fall in love with it all over again, you know and realize that it is unique and that it is beautiful up to you to keep it unique and beautiful. Did you always have this feeling inside of you right now? Because I remember your criticism of me. That's why I'm surprised to hear that. I'm a favorite student. Do you always said stop intellectualising or you because I was always up here and not in my body and why is that so important that you be what what is that that you're trying to say to people that if they stopped always thinking

25:11 And instead we're being what would be the difference has to do with the right and the left side of your brain. The left sign is the one that he's the sentences he figures could add the right side of the brain is conceptual. It sees the whole object not to figure and dancers. I think are healthy and live as long as I do because they're constantly using the right and the left side of the brain.

25:39 You're still teaching aren't you? You're still using those? Yes. I think you had the balance. You're not walking on crutches. You're not in a wheelchair. What is your secret? I remember you used to say to Plies. This was one of your sayings. I have a secret and I'm giving it away. What is your secret The Secret of your longevity your survival. What is the secret of life itself? I want to go back to my say you were a favorite student that you weren't initially with me. I know but because you did a little step at a time to go in the direction that I wanted you to go in that's how you became a favorite and that's how this little girl what I'm talking about right now. I'm going to be so pleased for her because she is not saying hello. I'm not going to do that and I want to say something here. There was a war on between you and me and we never totally came to a peace with it be

26:39 Cuz it was always resistance in the resistance and yet an attraction because I knew that there was something here that you were providing that I need it and I'm just using myself as an example because I was never a professional dancer, but I loved it so much because it got me out of my head and it's bigger than dance because I have I'm not dancing now. It's bigger than an ounce and that's why I'm here in this booth with you and I'm trying to get to

27:11 As an artist which I do think I am and you are.

27:21 Being a New York you chose to stay here. You didn't have to you chose to keep that studio. You didn't need to.

27:29 What is the future for artists in New York? Is there one supposing you had an extra 10 years to live? Do you see yourself still in New York in another 10 years 15 years. What would be down the road interesting because I do have to cough nameless Howell. She was a little Spitfire and they come and I advised her so much because it's a certain point you just pulled up stakes in New York and went to Hawaii and she worked for a while for timeout in Hawaii as their advertising manager. But recently she has become an astrologer and she has this wonderful article in a magazine there of how do you cook astrologically for a Scorpio?

28:20 Of course, I love you, but she in my chart found that I'm going to be going for another 10 deers another decade and she went to her astrology Professor to check to see was that right or wrong? And he said no he has another decade. So that's scary. Will you stay with a New York are you at with one of the point? She she said you are a New York it down. And what does that mean to be in New York on it means that you can go to the Metropolitan the Shakespeare in the park for nothing that you would go on Sunday to town hall at 12 and buy a ticket for a free concert at 5:30. These are the wonderful things I feel about and they're still here is gone.

29:08 I feel that.

29:11 People go to museums to visit

29:15 With each other instead of looking at the paintings.

29:21 They have these Blockbuster, you know because of going to go or do you like the modern what they did with the modern? Have you seen the new modern? I've seen the new modern and I don't like it and I've seen the Morgan and I just liked it even more that the Morgan Library had a wonderful warm Olde Brownstone quality and there was a lovely dining area where you could take your out-of-town friends and relax and be very happy because it would trees and flowers everywhere. This man named piano has come in and it's all glass. So what are these changes about? Is there a life attitude that is behind a lot of what's going on in the city. I think everybody saw user or screwed up. I do in other people are interested in two things.

30:08 Things rather than lets, you know, it's corny in the way to say art, but they are more. I have a very outstanding example of something at my studio who has a great night. He has town. Okay, but he was very poor as a child. So he was making a great deal of money in computers and I admire him so much because a month ago, he quit and opened the restaurant and he said it was partly because he'd been around me and saw that I had the courage to do whatever I did write that marriage is the word with everyone that has been touched by you. I think that that's someone called you. I think it was Bertrand Ross one of the keepers of the flame. And what does that mean? What is it that you're passing on and inspiring people? It's your own being, isn't it? Well, I think it's the thing that I say at the end of the film. Where is it a Chinese saying?

31:08 You have to learn as though you're going to live forever live as though you might die tomorrow.

31:16 Can you translate that? Okay, this means you go on learning you continue learning. It's not forever for out-of-school. Right? Right, right, but you live with the idea that you might die. Like the people in indonesi did tomorrow run. So you stress that you do one important rewarding thing a day. So that suddenly goes you know that you have that what rewarding thing will you do today? Do you know yet? Maybe it's this to the Venture finding this you know that I was asking people. Do you know where the story Booth is? What do you mean and finally I told told you that I asked the policeman and he said all the story goes I'll tell you where it is. Are you going to be destroyed today? And he was so excited, but that made me very interested that hears this cop.

32:14 Who wants to know what is going on here? And what is it that if he could hear you yesterday what one thing? Could you let him know? What what what do you think he'd be interested in this cop that you coming from you this modern dance Legend as someone who invited you recently to the Martha Graham tribute. I called you and she got one of your one of your other interviewers. Yes, what would you want to say to this, But still same as what I just said to do one wonderful rewarding thing a day, even if it's just watching sunset or watching the moon come up or looking very hard in New York to turn your head back far enough to see the stars. How did you how did you yourself? Do you ever have a problem with as many people do getting out of your own way so that you could be a channel.

33:14 Because as you describe what it means to be an artist, it's not about you. It's about being a conduit. I don't know when you were there, but it's very much there. Now. I've going of DaVinci of a man standing in a circle and I tell my choreographer students who are trying to call you back. You stand into that Circle you permit yourself to be operated through so you don't have to be so personally responsible of whether you're really good or bad. You just let it happen.

33:50 I feel that very strong for everybody and it would not necessarily dances. But any were you personally affected by 9/11?

34:00 Very much, so

34:02 Very very very much. So and I think

34:07 I'll always remember that I taught that day.

34:11 People came to the studio is tears. We could see the smoke blowing past the studio. It was coming up for Uptown and you knew that people were walking the street covered with dust. It was a dreadful. And they were all crying and I said, we're going to have class.

34:30 And we did and everybody felt better afterwards.

34:35 But I feel that 911 was the beginning of the trouble.

34:42 Studio because after 9/11, they sealed off the lower part of Broadway from 14th Street. You couldn't come down to the studio.

34:52 It is Subway or a bus and the people did walk. But that was kind of 9/11 was kind of like the beginning of a toboggan going down and out and it still is it to somebody last week that I think I wonder now whether I might not do better working for Greenpeace to save the world then to go on Dancing. I'm not sure cuz if we don't do something about the global warning, we're not going to be here. But if there's no Mary Anthony dance studio, there will be no place for people to be infused with some of these values that you somehow by osmosis receive them from just being in your presence as I see it and I remember that it wasn't all you know preaching in this kind of thing because they was Elliot at the piano. What was his name again? Elliott Elliott Weiss

35:52 What kind of songs did he play? He played Melodies right Broadway show does absolutely absolutely what kind of a modern dance classes this and with ballet barre. And you had Pilates you before anyone else did and in some ways Mary. I think that you are almost like but you know, the old word prophetess or some kind of your in the your your your your avant-garde in a way that in the Garb of someone old fashioned, you know, and I haven't gotten to any of my questions right now. Yes, and I I I I guess I had asked you at the beginning what you thought was your greatest contribution. I also wanted to flip side of that was do you have any regrets and I we also didn't get to the love of your life your partnership. So any of those things that you would like to address in the remaining moments and anything that I haven't touched on that.

36:52 Important for you. Well, I think of you for being talked about somebody named Cameron McCosh who was a dancer but a composer and he wrote the music for

37:03 At least three or four of my first pieces and I was invited to Europe to choreograph Italy and he came over. So this is where you say whether a decision can change your life. They Cameron did not want to come back to the United States and I did.

37:23 So who knows what would have happened if I had stayed in France? I'll never know because I came back because my roots were here. So that's one of the training the turning points in my life. I feel that I came to New York because I wasn't I was inspired by Martha Graham and then it was a great shock to me to realize I didn't want to try to be like my underwear because he was so wonderful and special there was no way you could be like Martha Graham. So ultimately I was very glad that I got a scholarship with Tanya home because she permitted me to be me Marianne say yes, and you are you

38:06 So, how do I wrap up? You mentioned somebody Joe Gifford know he was okay for him as my dancing partner, and he was my partner and we were both in a Broadway show called up and said to a park and we became a dude dancing to even be toward as a Duo and Joe was the one who first started to talk about meditation and he was on me and on me and on me to go into meditation and the Very fact that he was doing that drove me away until what day I looked at it and he had changed so marvelously for the better that I thought I am going to become a minute later.

38:51 And you had started around the time that you were having the real estate problem and that I would never have survived without it. I never would have survived and Joe was also the one that got me into Ricky which is a Japanese laying on their hands as a healing process and I have

39:09 Because I am a Ricky specialist I have.

39:13 Somebody who is hard of hearing. Where does it mean? May I ask you? What does it mean to be a pantheist? What is your spiritual?

39:22 Face, I've happy to talk about that. It means it I worship nature. I love the Ocean Isle of stars. I love the sun. I love little tiny plants that grow. I grow you would be surprised the number of avocados in my studio that I grew from a seed. So that's my love of nature. It seems to me that you've grown a lot of seeds and a lot of us and I hope that I will produce a flower from one of them that you will and you already have that I should say it's such an honor to have been allowed this moment to speak with you and I have a millions of questions and want so much to bring what you have to offer out to others so that you will be remembered which you will be and cherished and it's bigger than modern dance and yet even that one way is away.

40:22 Right. Now you should have the last word. All I want to say is that we were talking about how you were difficult for me when you were a student, but the thing that made me begin to love you was the captain that I met on the street.

40:38 And talk to her and she was really far more real to me than she had been a sit-down student. So that was when my attitude about you begin to change because she was going you really working in an artistic way, and I thought she's going to be all right, and I'm very glad that you were the one to talk to me today. Well, thanks.