Richard Gottlieb and Samantha Gottlieb

00:16 My name is Samantha Gottlieb. I'm 27 years old and today is August 6th 2006. I'm in Grand Central Terminal and I'm speaking to my dad.

00:26 My name is Richard Gottlieb and I'm 61 years old and this is still the 6th of August 9th 2006 and I'm in Grand Central Terminal and I am speaking with my daughter cement.

00:40 Hi Dad. I said I was I was thinking about how you look through some very historic moments and gay rights and I thought I'd ask you a little bit about your experiences in the 80s in particular during the custody battle with my mom and part of the reason. I thought this would be interesting as it seems to me that my contemporaries younger gay men were coming up now. So take for granted a lot of the things that you and I have lived through and even the issues around gay marriage. It seems to me that a lot of the things that we experienced some sort of shunted aside or not seen is very important. So my questions are to me about us obviously, but I'm sort of interested in hearing your opinions on how things have changed in a relatively short. Of time, but I think I'ma start earlier. So I guess you've always seemed to me as a very opinionated person. So I was wondering how you imagine your role in history or just sort of involvement in social issues when you are kid.

01:40 Are the teenager when I was a kid? I always thought that I wanted to be a politician or a leader.

01:53 And by the time I was in my early thirties, I had become disabused of that because I had done a lot of lobbying and I saw how awful it must be to be a legislator in that particular case and having to be polite to a lot of people whom you probably can't stand couldn't stand and having to go to Dreadful dinners to raise money when I was a teenager and into college I was at was the. Of the Civil Rights Movement the black civil rights movement. So I was involved in that I wouldn't say I was a

02:34 I'm ident wouldn't have spent 90% of my time doing it cuz I didn't but as you know, both your grandmother and your great-grandmother and more your great-grandmother were very active politically and very involved and your grandparents were socialists and whenever married your great-grandparents, I'm sorry. Yes, your grandparents were much more convention. So I certainly pick that up and I was involved in the peace movement during the late sixties. So for the Vietnam War and I did a very involved in Vietnam summer in the very conservative Mainline outside of Philly where I grew up and I remember being told by the Lower Merion police that in order to go around and bring people stores. We had to be registered and I went down to the police department got fingerprinted, which I thought was outrageous.

03:34 But that's sort of the involvement that I had. So I guess it to bring it back to the more my questions. I guess what pointed questions of sexuality start to feel important how you identified yourself or at your place in the world that didn't have any relevance to how you were involved in things even as a teenager late teens knew, I was Gail that we didn't I wouldn't have used the term from about the time I was for so I was always aware of being different being Jewish being relatively smart all those things set me apart.

04:10 And I think that is a lot of what motivated to me motivated me personally to be involved in social justice issues that sense of being different even though I don't think I experienced a lot of anti-Semitism it certainly was around and somehow even though I don't remember it consciously I'm must have absorbed a very strong sense of the Holocaust even though I literally don't remember it, but I do remember in about third grade being in a group.

04:49 Probably a reading group and making the statement that as long as there were any

04:57 I said Hitler's but I think I meant anti-semites around it would be very important for me to be very out as a Jewish person.

05:06 So then again looking for in history did the event of stone the events of Stonewall have any significance to you at the time. I mean besides Judy Garland's death, not affect me at all. I didn't care. I probably wasn't even aware of it. I would say.

05:24 And year or two after Stonewall I was already in Miami and there was a large gay rights movement. This is the famous Anita Bryant. This is the city council vote in Miami. I think that I think with Miami city proper that I need a Brian got all had her knickers Twisted about and started that heavy duty and take a movement in Florida. So I was certainly aware of it at that point and although I was very busy with the theater which was pretty much a 24-hour involvement. I would certainly conscious of it. And by the time I came to the City to New York in the mid-70s, I was very conscious. I've been conscious of the changes and conscious of g a a and b a g a West a gay activist Alliance.

06:17 So I was aware of it. Probably not so much politically involved but would have on the periphery of it and conscious of it.

06:28 So then answer the more personal note. Can you tell me a little bit more about marrying my mom? I know you've told me that in the past that you know that you live together for a number of years and you weren't sure if you wanted to marry her and then going through couples therapy and things you decided to get married. So I'm curious. I mean in light of all the things you just told me about that. You know my my

06:56 The thing that I think I've thought through and realized I think I even realized it at the time I have been involved in a number of relationships both with men and women and I felt that although I don't think it's it's 100% true that I had ended all those relationships and I fell do I was always backing out. So I had made a determination that the next relationship is when I was going to see through and that next relationship turned out to be your mother and at that time I was very much a caretaker and your mom I think needed a fair amount of caretaking and I believe that that times that if you took care of people and show them the right way.

07:46 They would grow up and I think that was sort of my determination with your mother and I always knew I wanted children and

07:57 The relationship with your mom actually after we went through a couples therapy with pretty good your mother and I had some good times and some not-so-good times as most relationships do and so we just decided we would get married. I think that was four years into the my relationship with your mom and I are living together and we get started in Florida and by that time we were here in New York. So you mentioned wanting children and I guess this wasn't something I had written down to ask you but you did it seems I remember talking to Tim and I'll get it in a minute. But you know, he is said that he felt when he realized that it prohibited having a family and I guess

08:38 The decision to get married was that partially because that decision to have a family was a really important or the option to have a family was very important. Probably not I would have had children without the

08:50 Blessings of marriage or not? I don't think that was the issue but certainly a time in the mid-to-late seventies when suddenly people realize do you didn't have to do that. There were women having children of choice Sorry by choice and not necessarily being Mary that was the beginning of that. So I don't think that was part of it. I felt closer to your mom at that point and

09:18 It seemed like a good thing to do.

09:22 So I wanted to talk about it more about meeting Tim after you and my mom separated. I know you place a personal ad in the classified section of the Village Voice right and their argument to yes after your

09:37 I guess really I had decided that the relationship with your mother was not going to work no matter what I did cuz we have gone back to couples therapy and your mom had decided that three of the therapist in a row with no good.

09:52 In fact one of whom we met.

09:56 Battle became a therapist for you while we when we were in the court situation, but I remember the last therapist who was recommended to your mother by your uncle and his wife we have gone to and he was saying, you know, the world is different. You don't have to do things conventionally and your mother stormed out and told him that he was no good since that was the three strikes and we were out so I

10:29 Seems to me a couple months after that I placed an ad in the Village Voice cuz I decided if I was going to live a gay life style. I better start meeting some people and I got a not a huge number for sponsors but some but Tim was one in those days when the Village Voice was still printed on clay tablets and in Kunia form there, of course, no Internet ads not even phone at so it's all done by letters and Tim wrote me a letter and

11:01 It took awhile for me to actually make contact with him. But I think I met him in very early September of 1980 meeting him in your life cuz you were obviously with him for about 9 years. I think we have my relationship with him was very important to me. I felt very cared about and I was very happy to meet him. I know the first time I saw him. I was just very pleased and sort of

11:35 Not literally Gately but chuckling inside cuz I was very nice and on the other hand Tim was is someone who needs a lot of caretaking so that I suspect some of that in me kept certainly continued and

11:55 The relationship just really worked. Well, and I do remember being up in his childhood home up in Litchfield Connecticut in his old room. I think you now have the bed that he had cuz he gave it to you but being in that bed and saying all I really want to spend the rest of my life with you.

12:14 So it was great.

12:16 So you think that you anticipated so that's sort of the two major relationships. I think that at least I live through and how does the head most direct impact on my life and I I was wondering if you anticipated for the homophobia card that my mom used during a lot of the custody hearings and if you had sort of expected or I mean, I remember one of them Point you're commenting to me that you know, my mother isn't homophobic. She's a dancer and is interact with people of all kinds of

12:45 Does all kinds of people that you didn't think of her as having mentioned as gay dancers, obviously, she has straight answers but that you didn't expect her to you or you didn't identify her as being particularly homophobic and not always baffled me. I think because it seems to me that that was such a big part of her anger and such a big part of the way in which the custody hearings play themselves out your mother.

13:11 Is an angry person and certainly was at that point. And so the anger I think was triggered more in my deciding to leave the relationship and as you know, your mother had something like 20 out lawyers during the whole divorce and custody situation but her first

13:30 Lawyer who also ended up being her last lawyer in the the whole process. I was he was a criminal lawyer and I often said it was criminal back. He is a lawyer but he was very much a fighter and he may very well have pushed that I have no way of knowing actually, I don't think he was literally her first I believed her first lawyer was actually a lesbian. Although I'm not sure your mother knew that but she didn't stick around long and I basically felt because I believe and rationality that your mother and I were growing up and that we would come to some

14:12 In a reasonable

14:14 Solution and that everything would have been fine. And I believe that your mother certainly would have been far better off financially and emotionally if she had acted that way and indeed accepted what I thought was a very fair division of everything but that's not your mother's nature. And I think there's a fair amount of self-destructive missing her personality and unfortunately, it came to play in the divorce and far more unfortunately over the way she treated you in the custody battle.

14:49 So what was it like for you and for telling me I was so you would just sort of started a relationship with Tim serve at home or you can just order in the day at your day-to-day life father's custody. I mean obviously and I should say that it went on for a close to 12 years. If you count my going to France being part of it might as well be issues kind of percolated for a really really long time. And so I guess I'm wondering what it means to me earlier days. When one point I know there was the picture of my mom and me in the post and there were columns about your divorce that the one time I seen by think I've seen one in my nice. I don't got a hold of it somehow and I just remembered seeing so egregiously inaccurate and so I'm wondering what it was like for you having that kind of publicity and sort of

15:48 Hyperbole going on and how did that affect your life at home? And how did that affect your life sort of in the day-to-day outside. Of course, the nice thing about stuff being in the post is that nobody reads the post or nobody in. You treat the post and even in those days that was probably so it was long after darthy shift shift sold it but

16:10 Clearly it was less than Pleasant. I don't think it had much of affect and effect on Tim's in my relationship early on because of the financial situation Tim and I lived in the Parlor floor apartment in the house that your mother and I are owned with a former business associate of mine.

16:35 And there certainly were times when your mother would pound on the floor or come and knock on the door. And actually I was always surprised that she didn't come down the fire escape and I break a window make faces or something and she certainly it's at me but never pleasant when we ran into her or I ran into her in the hall which almost never happened, but I know that for Tim it was often very hard because he somehow ran into a far more often than I did and she he always described as those encounters as your mother making her paranoid face at him and obviously I didn't see it but I clearly drenched in hatred, although I don't think him.

17:24 Was properly the object of her hatred but he's served his that in those instances. So and there was a period when she would take pictures of him coming in and out of the building and it was disturbing to Tim and I said, what you going to do with the picture, I mean, he felt that she would no misuse and I said you're walking in the building you're going out of building. So what?

17:49 And during the time and you over those yours while you were still living in that house where you're the 51st Street Brownstone that you shared with my mom. You weren't really allowed to see me a lot of that time there was

18:02 Hey. The divorce trial was over the judge who presided wasn't acting Supreme Court Judge. My guess is that he had been a political appointee years ago was not a young man. He didn't even seem to know what the Village Voice was.

18:23 And he apparently retired.

18:27 After the trial was over without ever issuing an opinion. So there was an interregnum. Well, that's the issue see the divorce was not official until that opinion with this year and Tim remembers the chronology far better than I but I would have said the divorce trial was over i-82. I don't believe the divorce decree came down until late 83 or early 84. I may be off a year or two of places and that decree was very homophobic. The decree basically said that I was not allowed to see you in the presence of any and I quote a known homosexual to have but it also paid me from involving you in any homosexual activities, which came from I believe the Bruce Valor decision in your

19:27 Has he probably eight or nine years prior when he hadn't taken his child to a gay pride March in that was considered a homosexual activity. The once that decision came down. You weren't Tim was not allowed to be there when you were there. And Tim was a very is a very upright person and didn't have any trouble with foul ball and clearly neither of us wanted to cause any problems. So he would go upstairs and stay with Carl on weekends when you'd be in the house or car with my former business partner on 40% of the house. Probably still does to his Chagrin and

20:11 But at a certain point your mother was very

20:15 Lacks about coming to pick you up just as she was about bringing you over in it one point. It just became it was very hard on you. So just sitting around and waiting and we didn't know quite what would happen or when she would appear so I just made it very clear to her. I think the pickup time with 6 p.m. On Sundays and I said if you're not here by 6:10 is coming back.

20:37 The homophobia of the decisions are Blake and Toma phobia is ultimately would have got the decision thrown out by the Appellate Division because it was so I thought that what they would do was Remains the case for new trial but they really did is throughout all the homophobia which made it possible for me first to buy back half your time, even though cuz we had had a half and half Arrangement before the trial.

21:06 Hi and then ultimate cuz your mother kidnapped you I ended up with temporary custody, which is actually

21:16 More in my favor then legal custody because

21:23 I had complete control over by the your mother saw you at all according to the judge. So I didn't care. I was happy if you when you wanted to see your mother your mother wanted to see you but technically and for the first part of it.

21:38 Your mother could only see you under supervision. So we had find friends who would be with you when you were with your mom by the time you got that you were sharing you were living at 44th Street. Yes, we left the house and 40. We went to the house and 44th Street when you were just 6, that's when Tim and I bought it you were to not quite too when I first met him.

22:06 Custody divorce, which is already in progress. At least the various motions have gone back and forth one to the other but clearly.

22:20 It wasn't because of divorce decree took so long to be signed.

22:25 I couldn't sell my interest in the house so I couldn't find another place.

22:30 So does her and get back to the part that I went there talked about about the historical aspect. I've been wondering how you had gotten involved with gay fathers for him and Ashley and sort of what you're through the evolution of your role in that organization has been changed to May. I got involved by know. It was the early 80s weather was 81 or 82. I'm not sure maybe was even 83 there were at that time 9 gave father's groups in the metropolitan area.

23:00 I didn't think at least four of the borough's there were a couple up in Westchester. There was someone Long Island there was one in Connecticut in the Connecticut one, I think still exist and Stuart gross.

23:16 What is a buzzing a father he's gone now?

23:20 Nothing needed to be a common place for people from these groups to come together. So he started the gay fathers for him and I got involved because I'd heard about it and it was a place to meet other people dealing with some of the same issues and I became involved with the

23:39 Political Tyrod beat was the political Committee of the group and that's how I got involved in a lot of lobbying and was involved with a group that was known as New York lesbian and gay Lobby or nisly go witches. What became Pride agenda

23:56 And so I started to involve a group in politics in some ways. Although what I discovered. Is that most of the men.

24:05 Didn't want have anything to do with politics. They just wanted to be left alone. But after I think after two years or two years after I got involved stew and maybe it was three stuff out that he just didn't want to keep running it. So there had to be a new president and he asked me if I would.

24:25 Run, which I did. So I spent a year being president and sort of changed the focus of the group in that I felt I moved the group first of the gay and lesbian Community Center which by then was extant and started to make the meetings about

24:46 Gay men in the outside world so that I had a session about the or an evening about the women in our lives in your grandmother came and let it Groove with me and some people had their wives, it was a variety of things. I think one or two people had their relatively grown-up daughters,

25:06 And I guess I stayed involved with it. I think the first maybe eight or nine months maybe a year. It was very helpful to me. And then after that I felt I stayed because I felt I could be helpful to other people and I think I may play this but about

25:25 Six or seven years ago. We went up to collage in cape Cape Cod in the closet the chart of lesbian and gays everywhere organization that I have been involved with for a little while in college. One of the mothers of some one of the younger boys is a few years younger than me to come up to me. I'd spoken at the town with a call town meeting and Amber are coming up and saying how much they appreciated all this what you had done and that they actually knew who you were and that you know that your involvement and it really helped their custody case at some point and I didn't really ask them any questions but that was heard of the first time. I think that I thought about the assertive larger effect or the ways in which your work and also our custody case had some kind of systemic influence and not just sort of the individual personal local.

26:13 Affects both positive and negative was the first time in New York that basically the Appellate Division and it was only for the first district is only binding on the 1st District said that the issue of the sexuality of the parent was irrelevant and that was very important there had been some other favorable decisions around the country clearly New York has at least some sense of prominence still did in those days and probably still has some

26:50 Actually, I think I met.

26:53 Relatively few people who were aware of it. I did one time. I was up in Boston probably at a gay fathers are gay and lesbian parents group organization meeting and I ran into I can't think of his name right now, but he was the head of one of the either glad or

27:14 Lambda legal defense

27:17 And he when I met him he said, oh, I've always wanted to meet you but that's about the answer was very nice. It's about

27:25 Probably one of the very few times when anyone has ever said anything about it, and I think of course at this point the

27:32 Case is so old that it's largely irrelevant. Right? And this was actually you would correspond with them. They actually had some direct contact with you as well. So it wasn't just just the icons on an iconic so late that you had actually directly help them. You need to be aware that the lesbian rights project which was a saint is a sinner. I think it still exists a San francisco-based.

28:04 Clearly gay and lesbian but focused on women's issues. So why was called the lesbian rights issue project was?

28:13 We tried to involve them in the case of both.

28:18 I believe Lambda and now wrote a joint Amicus brief to the PO.

28:26 And certainly the lesbian rights project material was helpful in putting the key the appeal together. And so obviously I am car responded with them. So I it may be through that but I'm not sure. Nyland so well with the lesbian rights project was it wasn't is a National Organization just like collage though based in San Francisco having meetings. Where are you involved with me in your life? And I was wondering how Grandma your mother and my grandmother and other family members handled the custody battle and sort of the issues that you were raising. Which of the time we're still

29:05 Kind of radical

29:07 As I said, I clearly come from a moderately radical background.

29:14 I think your grandmother was still alive at that point great-grandmother. Sorry, I always think I was forgetting skip a generation.

29:25 Certainly, by the time I was involved in a custody battle your

29:32 Grandmother was very supportive. What's interesting. Is that the ostensibly most radical of your aunts was your great aunt? I'm sorry my aunt was

29:48 Fairy Pro your mother. Yes, which I thought was she was also actually way she acted. I thought was pretty appalling. She later many years later sort of apologized.

30:03 Certain said she didn't know it sounds like someone from Congress hang if I don't even know then but I knew not know now.

30:10 But by and large the rest of the family was very supportive.

30:14 I don't recall any particular problems. I didn't involve them a lot. I generally didn't involve them in my life. Your mother did serve your grandmother with the peanut some point, which I think sealed your grandmother's opinion of your mother, but she'd already had formed.

30:36 So how did the accomplishments that the case produced? I mean it's sort of accomplishment cuz they were sort of mixed mixed consequences. But I guess how do they make cotton retrospect how they make you feel or how do they make you feel the time, I felt very good about them because they they certainly the appellative decision made it much easier for you to be with me and for me to protect you.

31:05 So I'm very glad I did it. I would say it was probably after raising you the one important accomplishment in my life. So it's only the one thing I would look back on. That was not.

31:20 Personal as being of some significance and worth doing I think the custody battle itself was obviously more important because it involved you personally. So the

31:33 The pallet division fight was motivated by that and certainly the whole process was very expensive. But I've never had any doubt that I would do it again. I'm at clearly would regardless of the cost and I do remember very early on the first lawyer. I had said to me give your she was then stole my wife full custody of your daughter and in a month, she'll be back wanting to change the situation. I said, I can't take the chance because once you make that kind of statement, it's very legally. It's hard to go back and get it undone. So I that's part of why it was a battle and I would never have taken that.

32:23 I guess how I mean now that things are sort of it to me. They seem very different. I remember in college sort of feeling very stringent mean I will talk to you a little bit about this but being aware that I was raised in the gay community and feeling very idea that identified with it. But that other young gay men who were starting to come out didn't recognize me in anyway, not that I wanted them to rush over me, but that I felt that because I they saw me as just a straight woman. They sort of kept me out of their Social Circle or younger gay men were very difficult to sort of get to know as a straight woman cuz they were very active in trying to figure out their own identities and wanted to be part of the gay community in that didn't involve straight women and I remember feeling very angry about that. So I guess you know why I constantly sort of reflection of a strange that my life is so directly impacted the way in which they are able to be out and the way in which that they can casually talk with their boyfriends about children and I think as adults my gay male friends are very different people than they were

33:23 17 or 18 but it definitely soured me somewhat on you know, having some of these gay friends because I've felt resentful that they were not aware so much of how much my my life felt that it was not sacrifice is too strong of a word but definitely in mashton in a lot of the Privileges they take for granted or course you have a lot have had a lot of gay male friends. So obviously can keep you that far from them, but I would say that by and large in this is true in my eye.

34:00 Experience in the world that history disappears from people's memory very quickly is certainly we know politically at the moment. We can see it on many fronts. So the people's memory is extremely short, which is one reason why certain kinds of social lies can be stated and people don't go up but we already dealt with that. What do you mean that's not true number of years ago. There's a I think a very wonderful writer of a sex advice column and called Dan Savage who writes in the back of the Village Voice if they send ocated and he's got a great sense of humor, and I've always liked it, but he

34:45 In his lover, I forgotten if it's adopted adopted the Sun and at one point they came or I think it was he who came to the gay and lesbian center in gave a presentation about what it was like to be a parent and I went and what was shocking to me was that he and the other people in the panel seem to think that they were the first people to be gay gay and lesbian parents and it was like, you know, this has been going on for a long time even when it wasn't in the open and I think he's a very bright man and even so it's in a knitted been in the open for almost a whole generation before them and they seem to have no

35:34 Since about it all history, I it certainly happened with the gay and lesbian parents International which was the group. I got involved with out of gay fathers. I remember being involved in the early formation of it and helping write the bylaws for it. And I think I went back to a meeting 5 years later and it was like as if nobody had any memory of the bylaws and what happened. It was just all new and that's just the nature of people it can certainly be annoying when you've been observant of that the history that people forgot. I know certainly happened. I certainly saw that when you were fairly Young

36:19 I think you were in school and you drove picture of what it was like in the 1970s or 1960s and you drew a girl with a poodle skirt. Now, I can understand that to you wasn't born until 1978 the 50s to 60s the 70s the forties they were all the same they were all in the ancient past but of course to me into Tim it was like, how can she not get this right? So that's the nature of human the human mind and human emotions. Do you have any questions for me that?

36:58 Around me the questions that I asked you or things that you want to elaborate that I haven't asked about that you thought were important thankful thing I would.

37:08 Ask you if we're recording this which we obviously are.

37:12 Would be

37:15 How much of the detail of the custody battle do you remember or you may have blocked most of it out? I know that I've preserved most of the court papers so that if you ever want to look at the menu down certainly don't need to Avail be there for you, but I'm curious on certain incidents.

37:35 That you and I experienced with your mother stand out in my mind very strongly because they were very emotional and very upsetting to me because they were so upsetting to you. Of course, you may not have any memory of those moments of may not be important. Well, I guess the truth is I don't have a very Vivid recollection and the things that I've pieced together parsley from talking to you and partially from the very few documents. I've seen from the post. I haven't ever looked at the custody. It's just too overwhelming to but you did lend them to the woman who wrote two families like ours there was a woman contacted me when I was a sophomore in college. So like 1997 or 98 who is going to do. She actually found the post pieces that I had for the first time that I've ever seen them on microfiche and she was working. I don't remember where

38:35 New York paper, I don't think it was a times but it may have been but I don't know whatever happened with what she sent a couple of days with me at College. It's worth more and follow me around and ask me questions and but I don't know if she ever had with any of it. I don't think much seems or press great. Peace. I know nothing about but I guess I mean my Recollections are foggy and I think some of that is because a divorce of the setting for child no matter what the circumstances are surrounding it and I I do think partially being an only child makes it a lot more difficult because at least when you have siblings, you can sort of cross reference and disagree but at least have someone with whom to share that those experiences and I do think being an only child is very much sir shaped my curiosity and the reason I want to ask you about these things just because

39:24 You're the only point of reliable point of reference that I have because my mom isn't reliable about these things and her interpretations about our interactions. 24 hours before often unreliable. So there is that sort of sense of ambiguity and uncertainty and you know, Grandma is not capable of talking about things anymore. And so I did I do so, I feel like it's just a very murky past and I was just certain events are very Vivid like my mom's kidnapping you but I think a lot of that is partially from you telling you no telling me what happened according to the sheriff's report or so, I think for me it's more emotional Sensations and not actual Recollections. I remember seeing you in the garden and being upstairs my mom's apartment and not being able to see you remember if I took my mother on sidewalks and I remember social workers coming to the house, but

40:18 Those things were very upsetting and traumatic but in terms of custody, I think I went and spoke spoken from the judge once maybe when I was very young. They never should have done that. So, I mean, I don't remember things very well to things to add one is if you ever want to see the post articles my physician has the mall in my medical file Barbara is very good physician. She's also a lesbian but I was always surprised to see them there and the second thing is to remind you that not all

40:55 Divorces and custody situations that involve gay or lesbian parents were anywhere near as rough as your mother's and mine in the one you experienced was because as you know, Howard and Malachi, it was a it was a very amicable situation with Rebecca and I didn't mean to imply at all that I thought this was something specific to being having a gay father, but I think there was kind of a lot of things at work and my mother being the person that she is made it especially difficult to end it became my eye, but I think it's actually interesting is that and I wonder how it would have been if you weren't gay because I think no matter what my mother would have made it a huge drama, but I think the fact that you are gay or are gay and it happened at a time where this was aids with coming out as something people were aware of and they're sort of it was sort of Tamia compliments of social history factors that made ohmic impound.

41:54 Some of the problems were made it easier for my mother to call the social worker and say I was being mistreated or abused because I was living with gay men. And you know, I mean, I work, you know, the homosexual activities being gay pride just the two words together. We're enough to set off alarm bells in Swiss Peanut the time during sexual abuse cases. And so I think I don't I don't want to suggest if this was because you're gay and or or blame you in any way at all but I I think it's sort of a strange and interesting phenomenon the way it played out all I didn't feel blame. My only I guess my other recollection is the first time I marched in a gay pride parade was with the gay fathers and the first time the group that marched and we had black t-shirts that say gay fathers in white.

42:43 And I remember clearly some of the people who were watching could not connect those words and one of the comments was what are they priests that the world has changed and

42:59 I think mostly for the better despite the fact that the world is still a messed up place and I am very grateful for what you went through all those years and I know that Parsley was a personal choice, but I think that what you did was also very important on a larger scale. And so that's why I thought it would be interesting to talk to you about it. So that it's not just personal therapy of what do I recover and but I think that it was it was as I was important Beyond us and that that to me is kind of something that I mean that makes me happy in spite of how difficult it was turned out pretty well. Thanks. I try.

43:39 Can be used to say that he thought it was.

43:42 What you went through was terrible, which I think it was but I said, you know all kinds of people go through all sorts of things and you turned out okay, so we don't need to have you