Ginger Cashin and M Harmon-Christian

[00:09] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: My name is Mary Kathryn Kathy Harmon Christian. My age is 55 years old, and today's date is January 27, 2021. I am in Decatur, Georgia, Muscogee Creek Land, and my partner today is Virginia Gage Kashin, and she is my friend.

[00:39] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: My name is Ginger cashin. I am 65 years old. Today's date is January 27, 2021. I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, and my partner today is Kathy Harmon Christian, and she is my friend.

[00:56] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: So, Ginger, thank you for taking me up on this offer, request, whatever you might call it, to allow me to interview you today on StoryCorps. And partly it's because I really want you to be memorialized, and partly it's because I want Stuart to be memorialized. And so in a moment, I'm going to ask you more about that, but I wanted to just start with offering my memory of when we met and then seeing what else you might add. And we really haven't known each other that long. We've only known each other, I think, five years, which is really not a long time. And yet I feel like you're my sister now. And so there's this part of me that just. Just wants to remember and wants to in some ways, figure out how that closeness came to be about. And so I know that we met at the Immigration Just Faith program at Our lady of Lourdes in May. And I remember you and Stuart walking in and it was palpable, the tenderness and the love that you shared. And it was something that caught my attention. And we went on from that class to become friends and then closer and closer friends. What do you remember about that meeting?

[02:28] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: I don't remember that specific meeting, but I do remember in that class. The class was great. It was a very interesting and challenging class. I remember you, poor thing. You were about 45 or 45 minutes to an hour north of Atlanta, and you had to come to downtown Atlanta on a weeknight and you were always late. And that's what I remember. I mean, you know, we became friends and. But I just felt so badly for you because I hate traffic and you had to face it every week and you worked so hard to get there to be in this class. So that's what I remember. I mean, I remember the class. I remember you. But I mean, just in terms of like, what's the memory that stands out? It's that you had to traverse Atlanta traffic at 5:30 on a weekday night. And I know it must have been very difficult and you worked very hard to get there and you did get there.

[03:27] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: Well, it was clearly worth it because I got to meet you and Stuart.

[03:30] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Yes.

[03:32] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: And it was a great class. So tell me how you and Stuart met. I'd love to hear you describe the time in which you met and how you started this wonderful adventure together.

[03:46] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Okay. Well, thank you. It is a story that he often told, and it was, I think, his favorite story to tell. It's pretty remarkable because Stuart was 23 years older than me, and under just about every circumstance, we would never have met because he was a friend of my father's. And had my father said to me, ginger, I have someone who I would like you to meet, I would have said, forget it. But. So what happened is I was a paralegal, and I worked for an attorney, and we were a plaintiff's attorney, and we represented a young woman who was a quadriplegic. She had broken her neck in a diving accident, and the lawsuit was based on her injury and this quadriplegia. And her case was coming to a trial in about two weeks. So my parents went every year on a Kiwanis trip. The Kiwan local Kiwanis Club had a trip that they chartered a plane for every year for a pretty inexpensive price. And they always would go somewhere in Europe, typically, or maybe South America. But anyway, so they, mom and dad were going to go on this trip to Portugal, and Dad said he would pay for me to go. And I thought, well, you know, I really can't go because I've got this case coming up, and, you know, I wasn't, like, super important, but I was kind of important on the case. So I thought, you know, I really can't go. And so I mentioned that to our client, who actually was a friend of mine, and she said, ginger, she said, you know, you really have to take every opportunity you can in life, because look at me. You just don't know what could happen. And that was the selling point. And I thought, well, yeah, I mean, I can get ready for trial and have everything ready and then go away and come back, and in two days, you know, I can start the trial. So I went on the trip, and Stuart was on that plane. He, as I said, was a friend of my parents. He was a member of the Kiwanis Club. And his story about getting on that plane was that early in the week that we were going to go, he'd expressed an interest to the guy that was setting up the trip. He'd expressed an interest in going on the trip. And the guy, George, said, no, the trip's full you can't go. And Stuart was kind of disappointed because, you know, he was late in trying to sign up for it. So about midweek, George calls Stuart and he said, you know, it looks like we may have an opening. And the trip was going to be on Saturday. This was like on a Wednesday. It looks like we might have an opening. Would you like to go on the trip? And Stuart said, yeah, I'd like to go. So later that day, George called Stuart and said, false alarm, trip is full. The person is going to go after all. And Stuart said he was very disappointed and so he wasn't going to go. Saturday morning, the day of the trip, we were leaving at 4:00 that afternoon. Saturday morning, he gets a call from George and he says to Stuart, he said, the couple in Macon looked at their passports this morning and they have expired. Do you want to go on the trip? And he said, wait a minute, I don't know, I don't know. I have to call the bank, see if I can get some money that the travelers checks, you know, it was old timey days, travelers checks. He said, I'll call you back in a few minutes. So Stuart checked, his bank was open. A Saturday morning, the bank was open and he was able to get all the banking stuff he needed. And he called George back, he said, yes, I'll go. So Stuart gets on that plane at 4 o'clock on Saturday afternoon, and I'm on the plane with the other 250 people on the trip. So we're on the plane. And it was in the days where, you know, the wine and liquor flows freely. I don't think they do that on airplanes anymore, but it was flowing freely. And Stuart got a seat right by the bathroom just because that was all that was left and that wasn't a great seat. And so he walked to the back of the plane where my mother and some other people whom he knew were playing poker. And I was sitting there because I was sitting with my parents. And this is what the story he tells. He says he looked, he saw this beautiful young woman, which was me. He said, me, I'm a beautiful young woman. And he was kind of interested in that. So, you know, I may have looked at him, I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't have been interested. Hands down, I wouldn't have been interested. So we get to Portugal and Stuart being a friend of my parents, and my parents had two friends of theirs with us, so there were the six of us, we decided every night to get together for drinks and Go out to dinner, the six of us. Maybe it was seven of us. Whatever number. Anyway, all of us. So we were going to be this little group, this little clip group. And so every evening we were there in Portugal for seven days. Every evening we got together for drinks, and then we'd go out for dinner. And so, you know, I got to know Stuart because we were always sitting at a table together, this small group of seven people. When we go on the field trips, during the day, on the bus, our small group of seven people, because we knew each other. We didn't know all the other 250 people on the trip, but we knew the seven of us. And so I got to know him. And then we got back to Atlanta, and we started dating a little bit. He was 23 years older than me, and I thought, I don't know about this. And he was divorced, and I was this lifelong ardent Catholic. I thought, no, I'm not going to marry a divorced person. So we dated for a little while, and I thought, you know, this just isn't going to work because he's divorced, and I can never get married to him in the church. And he talked about, well, maybe I can get an annulment. I thought, okay, well, maybe, but I don't really know. And so maybe it's four or five, six months into our dating. And I was getting ready to break it off with him because I thought, there's no future in this. I'm not, you know, I'm not going to pursue this. There's no future. So he was having some difficulty with his son. His son was about 20 years old. And he said, I'd like you to meet my son. And so we went out. I think we went to a restaurant or someplace anyway, some kind of social place. And the three of us were there together, and we were talking, and I said something to his son. I can't remember to remember what it was. I said something to his son, and his son just lit up like a Christmas tree. And it was something that was, like, very revelatory to this young man. And I'd had some kind of impact on this young man. And I don't know what it was. I can't remember. I just remember thinking, oh, my. Maybe that's a sign that I need to hang in there in this relationship. And so I took it as a sign that I should hang in there on this relationship. So I did. And Stuart went ahead and pursued getting an annulment, which he did get. And on the day he got his annulment he asked me to marry him, and I said yes. And so then about a month later, we were at dinner with my parents at my house, and Stuart said, so that now this is about a year and a half into our relationship. Stuart said, well, he's. Stuart was very old fashioned southern gentleman. He said to my dad, he said, phil, I'd like to ask for your blessing to marry your daughter. Dad said, well, of course. And mother, who had drunk probably several glasses of wine at that point, stood up and said, what? You're going to marry my daughter so she can take care of you in your old age? No. Or something like that. And that was just devastating to Stuart and to me. And so the evening quickly ended, and I thought that was the end of our relationship. And I remember talking to my sister overnight, and she said, oh, forget about it. You know, mother, that's the way mother is. And you know, men have egos. And that's what was going on with Stuart. Just forget it. So the next morning, Stuart called me. We got back together immediately. And I said to my parents, I said, you know, you can be a part of this wedding or you don't have to be a part of this wedding, but I'm going to marry him. And so it took about a day and a half, and my mom said, okay. And she came around very quickly because she didn't want me out of her life. And she and Stuart came to be very close friends, and they saw eye to eye on so many things. It was really amazing how compatible the two of them were. They were both very intelligent, well read, they loved sports, they were both Catholics. I mean, just the list goes on of their similarities and their similar interests. And so that was very beautiful for, you know, for the, you know, the closeness. And so anyway, he loves telling that story. I'm glad I could tell it.

[13:06] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: Yes, that's wonderful. I'm really glad you got a chance to have that recorded. And, you know, with the age difference of 23 years, was there ever a time where you felt like it was too much? Or did it ever come to play in all that, all of your life together?

[13:25] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: No, you know, it was little. It was funny. As before, I got gray hair. He always had gray hair. When we would travel, anytime we would go where people didn't know us, and they'd say, is that your daughter? Or they'd say, what is her relationship to you? And even in the last four or five years of his life, we'd go to like, the doctor's office or the physical therapist and they'd be talking with him. I don't know, five or 10, 15 minutes into the conversation, they'd look over to me and they'd say, now who are you, anyway? So I'd say, well, I'm the wife.

[14:09] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: I always said, did it ever bother you or.

[14:13] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: No, no, it was always kind of funny. I always thought it was kind of funny, but, no, it never bothered me. No. I can't think of any time it ever bothered me. I guess I kind of thought, well, at least I look really young.

[14:27] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: Clearly very good.

[14:29] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: I guess as I was graying, I liked it even more.

[14:34] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: Well, so over the last few years, you know, we. We spent a lot of time together, the three of us, and me going over to your house and having conversation and reading scripture and everything. And then. And then this summer in June. June 20th, Stuart just died.

[14:55] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Yeah.

[14:55] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: And how do you remember that time? And how do you feel about it at this point?

[15:05] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Well, it was. It was shocking. It was quick. He didn't. He really didn't suffer. He wasn't going to get any better. He was going blind. His walking wasn't very good. It's terrible to say it's a blessing, but it really was because I often think if he were here now, I just don't know how much more debilitated he would be. He would be more debilitated. He would. He would have less vision. So. And he's doing a lot of good now, I think, from his perch in heaven. I remember you around that time because you were ever present and how you got into the hospital. One will never know the lies we told to get to that hospital room. I still don't believe what you said, but.

[16:17] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: Well, clearly, if God can work out you two getting together on a plane, God can work out me getting into a hospital room during COVID I'll tell you how it happened. Yeah. So, you know, Covid was coming up. Covid started coming last year at this time. And about the same time, you know, I was fired from my job, and you and Stuart were so supportive of me, and we were. We were kindred spirits around anti racism. And I always knew that you supported me. And it was that day, like, I think March 8th, when I got the final word that they were going to let me go, and. And we would have conversations. So I had time then at that point. And then Covid hit, and I realized that you and Stuart will be pretty much trapped in the house at that point. So we started that Bible study on the new zoom.

[17:14] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Right.

[17:14] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: And then we started to Talk more that way. And I just realized that, you know, those last few months, then before Stuart died, we were able to even get closer because of the technology and the amount of time that was given to us. Me not having a job anymore and then, you know, us not running around anywhere. We had to be at home. And so on the day that Stuart died, which was Saturday, June 20th, I just didn't want you to be alone in the hospital.

[17:52] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Yeah.

[17:53] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: So I just drove over there, even though it was Covid. And I went in to Piedmont. I just went in and my heart was racing, but there was a nurse standing there, and I just said, my friend is alone and her husband has died. I need to see her. And she didn't ask anybody.

[18:13] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: She didn't.

[18:14] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: She just took. I think she just took me for what I was telling her. She. She said good luck or something. She checked my fever and I got up there and. And then I was told that I shouldn't be there and who let you in? And all that. But I was just determined that you would not think that you were alone in that.

[18:34] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Yeah. Yeah.

[18:35] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: And. And even if. Though I got turned back, I just. I just wanted you to know that. So. And I remember looking at you and you were just so. You just looked at peace, though, and that was probably the shock.

[18:49] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Yeah.

[18:52] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: I don't know if you'd like to share any of those details of those last moments with Stuart. You're welcome to or not, if it's. It's up to you.

[19:03] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Well, so you were on your way. Stuart's daughter in law was on her way, and only two people could be in the room because of COVID I was one. And so she was on her way, and he was in hospice at that point. And so the previous day. It's amazing how God works. The previous day, a respiratory therapist. Stuart was an icu. A respiratory therapist came in. He was doing some breathing treatments with Stuart. And I said to him, I said, what happens when people die? What. What's the breathing like? Because I'd often heard about, you know, breathing things with people dying. And he's any. And he showed me that people start breathing from their stomachs. And he was standing up and he was showing me how the people start breathing from their stomachs. So. Okay, so. So now it's. The next day, Stuart's in hospice, and I'm talking with him, and there he was. I don't know, comatose. I don't know what the word is. Since he had a stroke, he was not responsive. The two Days prior, he had not been responsive at all. But I kept, continued to talk to him and pray with him and say the rosary, read to him. All the time I was able to spend with him. But. So there were two friends from church, two sisters, Gloria and Brenda Manson. And Brenda had called the day before and wanted to talk with him but couldn't. And I thought, well, I need to get them on the phone. And so I got my phone out and I did FaceTime with them and I put it by his ear on the pillow. And I said, you know, Stuart's laying right here, you know, you can talk with him if you want and you know, please talk to him. And so Brenda was talking to him and I said, brenda, I said, stuart's breathing has changed. And so I said, I need to, I said, please keep talking to him. I need to go down and get one of the nurses. So I went down and got the nurse and I said, his breathing has changed. And so she came in, the nurse came in. And so I prayed, I continued to pray while he was breathing his last breaths. And then it was June 20, it was the first day of summer. It was 4 o'clock in the afternoon. A steward hadn't been able to see for a long time. His vision was so bad. And so as his breathing was changed right towards the end, he opened his eyes completely and he looked up, he looked straight ahead and I know the angels and saints were coming to get him. And then he laid down and died. And right then the most wonderful sunlight came in the windows. The bright, bright, bright, brightest sun you can imagine came in the windows. And so I knew he was gone and he was at peace. And so I just lay there with, I mean, I sat there while he lay there. He was dead. And the nurse left the room and then his daughter in law came in. She was very shocked that he had died. You know, she didn't know he was that close to death, but she was really shocked. And so we sat around talking for a while, Stuart's body lying there. And then after a few minutes, I said to her, I said, do you want to help me bathe Stuart? Because, you know, that's what you do, you bathe the dead body. And she said, no, I don't. She just said, no, I, I don't think she felt comfortable doing that. So I proceeded to bathe him. I took a wash rag and wiped his body with a wash rag and was. So I washed his body. And then she had to leave. She had to go pick up her daughter. Stuart's granddaughter. And so Stuart and I were just in the room together, and I thought, you know, we can't have priests here. We're still very strong Catholics. No priests can come in. So I said, let me get the two strongest prayers. I know the most Catholic women I know on the phone. So I called Gloria and Brenda back up, and both of them got on the phone. The people who were on the phone, he was dying. And I told him we were there with Stuart's body and they needed to pray him away because this was the last time we were going to be with his body. And we needed to say a lot of prayers for his body and for him. And so they got out some Catholic books they had, which they have many, and they know a lot of Catholic prayers. And they said all kind of wonderful Catholic prayers. And the ones I knew I joined in with. And so we prayed. They prayed for maybe 20 minutes. And then I think they said, well, I think that's it, Ginger. I think. I think we've done a good job. We've got. We've got. Stuart prayed to heaven. And I said, okay, yep, that sounds good. And so that was it. And I kissed him goodbye because he was going to be cremated, so this was the last time we were going to be with his body. Oh, and while I was bathing his body, right after I bathed his body, I made the sign of the cross on his forehead and his hands and over his heart and on his feet, which is what we do as Catholics, anyway. So I left, and I was at peace. And, of course, you were here when I got home.

[25:28] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: I was kicked out of the hospital. I had nowhere to go.

[25:34] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: And I called Father Henry and told him Stuart had died. And I asked him. I'd forgotten at Stuart's death. I'd forgotten this after he looked up as Stuart is dying, and he looked up, his eyes wide open looking, greeting the angels that were coming to greet him. He kind of. He didn't gasp. He kind of had a. He had a distressed look on his face. And then he died. And so I asked Father Henry, when I called him on the phone, I said, father Henry, I explained. I told him what happened. I said, what was that, Father? When Stuart gasped or seemed to be in distress there when he died, and he said, well, that was his soul leaving his body. He said the soul didn't want to leave his body, but it did. I said, okay, okay. And I think there are stories like that. I mean, I just recall people telling stories about that kind of death experience, people observing that at the death of a loved one. So, anyway, so then we made. A couple weeks later, we made arrangements for a Zoom memorial service, which you planned. And then. Anyway, so that's what happened.

[26:55] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: I'm just so struck by the tenderness that you and you retelling the story, and it's one of the most beautiful things for me looking back on your relationship, is the tenderness and the love. I never heard you ever, the two of you, speak unkindly to each other, which is, I don't know if you realize how rare. Rare that is. And the fact that you had this big age difference. And a lot of people would say, well, that's not advisable or whatever it would be. And he had children before the two of you and all of that. But do you think that your relationship was special, was unique, was unusual comparative to friends you have and other people?

[27:48] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Well, I never knew a happy marriage until I was about 25 and I saw my aunt remarried a man who really loved her and whom she really loved. And so I think that was the first good marriage I ever saw.

[28:04] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: And.

[28:05] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Oh, so this is the way people are supposed to treat each other. I didn't know that. I didn't know that.

[28:10] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: Yeah.

[28:11] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: So, I mean, I did have an image of a good marriage ought to be. But I think because of the circumstances under which Stuart and I met, he really was the only man I've ever loved. He really was. You know, being the age he was, I was 30, and he was 52, 53 when we got married. You know, he was a grown up. That's terrible to say, because I was a grown up too. But I mean, other men that like to say 30, 35, I don't know, I just look back and I think, you know, they just maybe weren't very mature. And Stuart, you know, he was just a really solid person. He was a good person. And, you know, he knew who he was. And, you know, there was never really any faults or identity crisis or middle age crisis or. I mean, I've never seen men have those, but I hear about them. And so had I married a younger man, maybe that he would have had that. I don't know. But, you know, we just had so much in common. And the fact that God brought us together, there's just no question that God brought us together. And, you know, so how could that fail? Because God brought us together. It's what God wanted for us.

[29:23] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: And so I'm struck by the certainty of the way you say that. I think that's really remarkable. And I Do notice too that your relationship not only had a compatibility and there was an element. You know, I met you in your. So I met you when you were probably just about 60 and Stuart was just about 82.

[29:47] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Yeah, you know, so.

[29:49] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: And you were doing physical caring for him at that point. And yet what I remember too is your ability to just be extremely patient and listen for him no matter how long it took him to speak. And I just found that really remarkable quality that you were both also working in social justice and you treated each other with the dignity that you also treated other folks. And it was a great privilege for me to watch that your relationship as well as how you were with other folks. So you had this connection around social justice that I'd never seen either. A really good marriage that also was not just in and of itself, but was in the community. And one of my joys was with you down at the shrine when you were doing the foot care ministry. And would you like to share a little. I'd love to hear a little bit about the foot care ministry and how you got that going and any fun stories you might like to share from that.

[31:00] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Well, I was helping with foot care at the night shelter for many, many years when started at St. Anthony's Night Shelter out in west end Atlanta. And then we moved downtown to the downtown shelter. We moved that ministry downtown where we would care for the men's feet because, you know, walking on their feet all day in ill fitting shoes. We saw a lot of problems the men had. And so we started a foot care ministry so that we could help with that. And over the course of the five months the men were in the shelter, it did help them and we had funds to get them new shoes as they needed them. So Stuart. So I was already doing that and Stuart and I married and he started coming down and doing foot care. He first started doing water because he thought, oh, maybe I really can't do feet. And he first started doing the water for us, filling the water buckets up so that the men could soak their feet. And eventually he became somebody that did feet too. And he took over the running of the foot care ministry. So he'd make sure we had the supplies, we'd have the volunteers, we'd have had the funds for the shoes. Every aspect related to foot care, he ran it. And the guys always called him Doc. Now none of us were doctors early on, but they always called him Doc. So we'd come in and say, did they really?

[32:24] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: I didn't know that.

[32:25] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Hey Doc, how are You. And they looked at Stuart. Most of the men were African American who were in the shelter, and they looked at him as a father because he was so much older than many of them. He had such great compassion and care for them, and he treated them with such respect and dignity, which the men on the street are not used to. And they really had wonderful relationships. Stuart would often talk about that. And then over the last couple years, when he wasn't able to come down to foot care with me, every Wednesday night, the guys would say, where's Doc tonight? Or where's Stuart? And, well, I'd say, you know, he's not feeling well tonight or something. And, you know, which was true, or he couldn't make it tonight or something. But they always remembered him, you know, not really for the skill, I don't think, although he was, as any of the rest of us, doing feet, but the compassion and tenderness with which he treated the men and the dignity he gave them. And he's remembered by all those guys that are still at the shelter who, you know, may return year after year. And that's always a beautiful thing in one respect. It has been good not to go to foot care this year because of COVID Only because I thought it was going to be very difficult for me to be there without him.

[33:52] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: Yeah. Yeah. I think in some ways it's a real blessing for you. Besides which, the squirrels ate the equipment. I mean, the rats ate the equipment. Yeah. Aside from that. So we have to fill that story in, though. People won't get that. So. Yeah. So all the foot care stuff was left inside of the shrine waiting for us to come back, you to come back. And in the meantime, a rat came in and decided to eat shoes, coffee machine, everything that was there, tear up boxes. Yeah. So there is something powerful about that, that you'll continue in your ministry, but you'll start anew. So you will.

[34:35] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Without.

[34:36] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: We will mourn the loss of steward in the ministry. But there is something powerful about getting all new equipment at this point.

[34:44] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Yeah, that's true.

[34:46] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: And maybe we can do some kind of memorial for Stuart when we do get back.

[34:50] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Oh, lovely idea.

[34:51] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: That just occurred to me and I didn't realize you'd been doing it for so long, Ginger. Wow, that's incredible. So Euro and Stewart's devotion to the poor in this day and age with the politics that we have is remarkable and a wonderful testament to a life well lived. Do you think that Stuart felt like his life was well lived?

[35:18] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: I think he probably felt there was always more to do. And as he became more infirmed, he regretted not being able to do it. I know that his daughter told the story at his memorial service because Margie, who's in New Zealand, they talk once a month. And you had just gotten arrested at one of the protests in early June, or maybe proud of it.

[35:48] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: Proud of it, yep.

[35:50] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: June 1st. Okay. In early June, you've gotten arrested and you've called us and told us. And so Margie relays the story of being on the phone with Stuart on that Tuesday evening, I guess, after your arrest. Stuart was telling her about your arrest at the protest. And he told Margie, he said, my only regret was that I couldn't be with her because Stewart would have wanted to be arrested with you. And so, you know, I know he always felt there was more. There was more to do. There was more to do. And he did what he could, you know, that his body allowed him to do.

[36:30] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: I know. God, I wish his body could have lasted a bit longer because I think, you know, his presence of mind was still very much there, you know, and he would still outward focused all the way to the end. And that's so remarkable too, that, you know, and.

[36:45] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Excuse me. The last night. You know, the night. The last night he was lucid and the night of his. The stroke happened overnight. He and I were listening to a presentation by Reverend Jackie Lewis up in New York about racism. It was. She was talking about an hour and a half with some other leaders in the.

[37:06] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: I was on that with you, remember that?

[37:08] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: And then the call was over about 8:30, and we called you up and we talked about it and what points that she'd made and maybe planning what else we wanted to do related to racial justice issues. And so that was the last evening he was alive. And that's how he spent it. And then we listened to. Right before bed, we listened to a podcast, Krista Tippett, on being with a monk or brother who I think is in Denmark. And the topic was gratitude. And he talked about even in the worst tragedies, we need to find areas where we can be grateful. So these are some of the last things Stuart heard and last things I heard with him, which really put things in perspective the next day. And now about gratitude. And I am very grateful.

[38:04] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: Yeah. And the fact that I got to tell him I loved him that night. I will be forever grateful. That too. Because we never know. We could have never known. The next morning he would have his stroke. So he will always be in my heart. I will never forget that he shares A birthday with my only child, July 14th. They will forever be buddies in that way. And if there's one real blessing that's come out of his death, it's that we have been able to get to really know each other. Because I think before, in some ways, Stuart was the center of our relationship, which was wonderful. And I love him dearly, and I always will. But now we have been able to become friends and really get to know each other and be there for each other through this difficult year. And you are a blessing, my friend. Thank you.

[39:01] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: As are you.

[39:01] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: And you are a blessing. So, Ginger, thank you so much for being willing to do this together. It's been tremendous.

[39:11] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Thank you. I appreciate that.

[39:14] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: Yeah. And I love you, and I love Stuart, and thank you, God, for bringing us all together.

[39:19] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: Thank you. I appreciate you wanting to do this. And I love you, too. Oh, what do you look like? Okay. Stuart was tall with gray hair, and he was an accountant. He loved numbers. He loved anything numbers. And one of the things you talked about, about getting along with him, people didn't know, and we'd never had fights about it, but I sure didn't like pulling together information for tax returns. In fact, I hated it. But I did it. Maybe this is a testament to my love for him. I did it every year over Thanksgiving. I'd go through all my receipts and everything and pull all the documentation together and present it to him in the orderly fashion which he expected. And the last three or four years, because of his vision, I helped him with all of that on his computer. And I even did QuickBooks with him, which was. I thought we were going to get divorced. It was so horrible. Oh, my God, it was so horrible. There's so many things to do on QuickBooks. And he said, well, it's just right there. Of course, he couldn't see the poor guy. And finally, God helped me, and I was able to find whatever tab I was supposed to click and put whatever numbers in I was supposed to put in. But.

[40:57] MARY KATHRYN KATHY HARMON-CHRISTIAN: Well, clearly we don't have a St. Ginger yet in the communion of saints, so we're, you know. There we go. He was tall and he was thin, and he had the most remarkably light blue eyes. That's right, he did. And he wore about the same clothes as you did, which always made me laugh. You both wore the same kind of collared shirts. You both wore the same pants. Just crack me up. And you're both tall and thin.

[41:21] VIRGINIA GAGE KASHIN: That's right.