Ginger Cashin and M Harmon-Christian

00:06 My name is Mary Catherine Cathy harmon-christian. My age is 55 years old and today's date is January 27th, 2021. I am in Decatur, Georgia Muscogee Creek land and my partner today is Virginia gay Cassian and she is my friend.

00:36 My name is ginger Cashin. I am 65 years old. Today's date is January 27th, 2021. I'm in Atlanta Georgia. And my partner's a day is Kathy harmon-christian and she is my friend.

00:56 So Ginger, thank you for taking me up on this offer request. Whatever you might call it to allow me to interview you today on storycorps and partly it's because I really want you to be memorialized and partly it's because I want Stuart to be memorialized and its own the moment. I want to ask you more about that. But I wanted to just start with offering my memory of when we met and then seeing what else you might had and we really haven't known each other that long we've only known each other I think five years, which is really not a long time and yet I feel like you're my sister now and so there's this part of me that just just wants to remember and wants to in some ways figure out how that closeness came to be about and so I know that we met at

01:56 The immigration just Faith program at Our Lady of Lourdes in May and I remember you and Stuart walking in and it was palpable the tenderness and the love that you shared and it was something that caught my attention and we went on from that class to become friends and then closer and closer friends. What do you remember about that meeting? I don't remember that specific meeting, but I do remember in that class of class was great at it was a very interesting and challenging class. I remember you poor thing. You were about 45 or 45 minutes to an hour north of Atlanta.

02:48 And you had to come to downtown Atlanta on a weeknight and you are always late and that's what I remember. I mean, you know, we became friends and but I just felt so badly for you because I hate traffic and you had to face it every week and you work so hard to get there to be in this class.

03:08 So that's what I remember me remember to class. I remember you but I mean just to turn is like what's a memory that stands out its that you had to Traverse Atlanta traffic at 5:30 on a weekday night. And I know it must be very difficult and you work very hard to get there and you did get there. Well, it was clearly worth it because I got to meet you in Stuart and it was a great class. So tell me how you and Stuart mess. I'd love to hear you describe the time in which you met and and how you started this wonderful adventure together. Okay? Well, thank you. It is a story that he often told and it was I think his favorite story to tell it's pretty remarkable because she was 23 years older than me and under just about every circumstance.

04:03 We would never have met because he was a friend of my father's and had my father said to me ginger. I have someone who I would like you to meet.

04:13 I would have said forget it. So what happened is I was a paralegal and I worked for an attorney and we will replicate the plaintiff attorney and we represented a young woman who was a quadriplegic. She had a broken her neck in a diving accident and the lost it was based on her injury and this quadriplegia and her case was coming to a trial in about 2 weeks.

04:46 So my parents went every year on a Kiwanis trip the Kiwanis local Kiwanis Club had a trip that they chartered a plane for every year before a pretty inexpensive price and they always go somewhere in Europe typically or maybe South America. But anyway, so that Mom and Dad were going to go on this trip to Portugal and dad said he would pay for me to go.

05:10 And I thought well, you know, I really can't go because I've got this case coming up and you know, I would like super important but I was kind of important on the case. So I thought you know, I really can't go and so I mentioned that to our client who actually was a friend of mine and she said Ginger she said, you know, you really have to take every opportunity you can in life because you just don't know what could happen and that was a selling point and I thought well, yeah, I mean I can get ready for trial and have everything ready and then go away and come back and in two days, you know, I can start the trial so I went on the trip.

05:49 And Stewart was on that plane. He said was friend of my parents. He was a member of the Kiwanis Club and his story about getting on that plane. Was that early in the week that we were going to go eat expressed an interest to the guy that was setting up a trip. He expressed an interest in going on the trip and the guy George said no the troops full you can't go and do it was kind of disappointed cuz you know, he was late and trying to sign up for it. So about mid-week George call Stewart and he said, you know, it looks like we may have an opening in the trip was going to be on Saturday is like on Wednesday. It looks like we might have an opening it. Would you like to go on the trip and Stewart said yeah, I'd like to go so later that day George call Steward said false alarm trip is full. The person is going to go after all and Stewart said he was very disappointed so he wasn't going to go.

06:48 Saturday morning the day of the trip. We were leaving at 4 that afternoon Saturday morning. He gets a call from George and he says to Stewart. He said the couple in Macon looked at the passports this morning and they have expired. Do you want to go on the trip?

07:07 And he said wait a minute. I don't know. I don't know. I have to call the bank. See if I can get some money is that The Travelers checks, you know that it was old timey days in Travelers checks. He shall call you back in a few minutes, so

07:19 Stuart check his bank was open on Saturday morning. The bank was open and he was able to get all the banking stuff you needed and he called George back and said yes, I'll go so Stewart gets on that plane at 4 on Saturday afternoon, and I'm on the plane with the other 250 people on the trip. So we're on the plane and it was in the days where you know, the wine and liquor flows freely. I don't think they do that on airplanes anymore, but it was flowing freely and Stewart got a seat right by the bathroom just cuz that was all that was left and that was a great seat. And so he walked to the back of the plane where my mother and some other people he knew were playing poker and I was sitting there cuz I was sitting with my parents and this is what the story he tells he says, he looked he saw this beautiful young woman, which was made.

08:19 Tell me I'm beautiful young woman and he was kind of interested in that so, you know, I may have looked at my don't know but I certainly would have been interested hands down. It would have been interested so we can support you and Stuart being a friend of my parents and my parents had two friends of theirs with us. So they were the six of us. We decided every night to get together for drinks and go out to dinner the six of us. Maybe it was seven of us. Whatever them all of us a little cliquish group. And so every evening. We were there in Portugal for 7 Days every evening. We got together for drinks and then we go out for dinner.

09:00 And so, you know, I got to know Stuart because we were always sitting at a table together the small group of seven people when we go on the field trip during the day on the bus are small group of seven people cuz we knew each other we didn't know all the other 250 people on the trip that we knew the seven of us. And so I got to know him and then we got back to Atlanta and we started dating a little bit. He was 23 years older than me and I thought I don't know about this and he was divorced and I was just like long are Catholic at that. I'm not going to marry a divorced person. So we dated for a little while and I thought you know, this just isn't going to work because he's divorced and I can never get married to him in the church and he talked about what maybe I can get an annulment. I thought okay. Well maybe but I don't really know.

09:51 And so maybe it's four five six months and two are dating and I was getting ready to break it off with him cuz I thought there's no future in this. I'm not you know, I'm not going to pursue a future. So he was having some difficulty with his son. His son was about 20 years old.

10:10 And he said I'd like you to meet my son and so we went out I think we went to a restaurant or someplace and it was some kind of social place and the three of us were there together and we were talking and I said something to Asana can't remember to remember remember what it was I said something to his son and his son just lit up like a Christmas tree and it was something that was like very revelatory.

10:34 Tradition man and I've had some kind of impact on this young man. And I don't know what it was. I can't remember. I just remember thinking. Oh my maybe that's a sign that I need to hang in there in this relationship. So I took it as a sign that I should hang in there on this relationship. So I did and Stewart went ahead and pursued getting an annulment which he did get and on the day. He got us a moment. He asked me to marry him and I said, yes, and so then about a month later we were at dinner with my parents at my house.

11:11 And Stewart said so that now this is about a year-and-a-half into our relationship Stewart said well Stewart was very old fashioned Southern gentleman. She said to my daddy said Phil, I'd like to ask for your blessing to marry. Your daughter dad's will forced and mother mother who had drunk probably several glasses of wine at that point. I stood up and said what you're going to marry my daughter so she can take care of you and your old age. No.

11:45 And that was just devastating to Stewart and Amy and so the evening quickly and did and I thought that was the end of our relationship and I remember talking to my sister overnight and she said oh forget about it, you know mother that's the way mother is and you know men have egos and that's what was going on with Stewart. Just forget it. So the next morning Stuart call do we got back together immediately and I said to my parents I said, you know, you can be a part of this wedding or you don't have to be a part of this wedding, but I'm going to marry him and so it took like about a day and a half and my mom said Okay, and she came around very quickly cuz she didn't want me out of her life and she and Stewart came to be very close friends and they saw eye-to-eye on so many things. It was really amazing. How compatible the two of them were they are both very intelligent well-read of a low

12:45 Sports they were both Catholics. I mean just the list goes on a bear similarities and there's a similar interests. And so that was very beautiful for and

13:02 So anyway, he loves telling telling that story. I'm glad I could tell her.

13:06 Yes, that's wonderful. I'm really glad it's glad you got a chance to have that recorded and you know with the age difference of 23 years was there ever a time where you felt like it was too much or did it ever come to play and all that all of your life together?

13:23 I know you do it was it was little it was funny as before. I got gray hair. He always had gray hair when we were travel-ready time. We would go with people didn't know us and they say is that your daughter they say what is her relationship to you. And even even in the last 4 or 5 years of his life. We'd go to like the doctor's office with the physical therapist and they be talking with him. I don't know 5 or 10:15 minutes in the conversation. They look over to me and they say now who are you anyway?

14:11 Did it ever bother you or know now? It was always kind of funny. I always thought it was kind of funny but

14:20 No, I can't think of any time it ever bothered me. I guess I kind of thought well, at least I look really young.

14:34 What's an over the last few years, you know, we we spent a lot of time together the three of us and me going over to your house and having conversation and reading scripture and everything and then and then this summer.

14:50 In June, June 20th

14:53 Stuart just died. And how do you remember that time? And and how do you feel about it at this point?

15:05 Well, it was it was shocking.

15:10 It was quick.

15:15 He didn't really didn't suffer.

15:23 He wasn't going to get any better think he was going blind.

15:27 He's walking wasn't very good.

15:34 It's terrible to say it's a blessing but it really was because I often think if he were here now. I just don't know how much more debilitated he would be. He would be more debilitated. He would he would have less vision.

15:52 So and he's doing a lot of good now, I think from his perch in heaven.

15:58 I remember you around that time because you were ever present.

16:04 And how you got into the hospital one will never know The Lies We Told I still don't believe what you said but was clearly if God can work out you two getting together on a plane. God can work out me getting into a hospital room and I'll tell you how it happened. So so, you know covid-19.

17:04 Stop point and then Hobart head and I realize that you and Stewart will be pretty much trapped in the house at that point. So we started at Bible study on the new zoom and then we started to talk more that way and I just realized that you know, those last few months then before Stewart died. We were able to even get closer because of the ology the amount of time that was given to us me not having a job anymore and then, you know us not running around anywhere. We had to be at home.

17:41 And

17:42 So on the day that Stewart died which was Saturday June 20th. I just didn't want you to be alone in the hospital. So I just drove over there even though it was Kobe Bryant. I went in to Piedmont. I just went in.

18:01 And my heart was racing but there was a nurse standing there and I just said my friend is alone in her husband is died. I need to see her and she didn't ask anybody she didn't he just took I think she just took me for what I was telling her. She she said good luck or something. She checked my fever and I got up there and and then I was told that I shouldn't be there and who let you in and all that but I was just determined that you would not think that you were alone in that and and even if do I got turned back. I just I just wanted you to know that so

18:43 And I remember looking at you and you were just so you just looked at peace though, and that's probably the shock.

18:52 I don't know if you'd like to share any of those details of those last moments with Stewart. You're welcome to or not. If it's it's up to you.

19:03 Well, so you were on your way.

19:06 Stewart's daughter-in-law was on her way and only two people could be in the room cuz of Cobra Kai was 1 and so she was on her way and he was in Hospice at that point. And so

19:27 The previous day. It's amazing how God works the previous day respiratory therapist do with an ICU respiratory therapist came in he was doing some breathing treatments with Stuart.

19:39 And I said to him I said what happens when people die. What did what's the breathing like that often heard that you know breathing things with people dying any any any any showed me that people start breathing from their stomachs and he was standing up and he was showing me how the people start breathing from their stomachs. Okay. So so now it's the next day Stewart's in hospice and I'm talking with him and there he would he was I don't know comatose. I know what the word is he has he had a stroke. He was not responsive the two days prior. He had not been responsive at all, but I kept continue to talk to him and pray with him and say the rosary read to him all the time. I was able to spend with him. But so they were to the two friends from church to Sisters glory and Brenda Manson and and Brenda had called the day before and I wanted to talk with him, but couldn't and I thought well I need to get them on the phone.

20:39 And so I got my phone out and I did FaceTime with them and I put it by hit his ear on the on the pillow and I said I said, you know a Stewart's laying right here, you know, you can talk with him if you want and you know, please talk to him. And so Brenda was talking to him and I said Brenda I said Stewart's breathing has changed and and so I said I need to please keep talking to him. I need to go down and get one of the nurses so I went down and got the nurse and

21:11 I said his breathing has changed.

21:19 So she came in the nurse came in and dumb.

21:25 So I prayed I continue to pray while he was breathing his last breath.

21:32 End

21:35 And then it was it was June 20th. It was the first day of summer.

21:40 Which 4:00 in the afternoon?

21:43 A Stuart hadn't been able to see for a long time. His vision was so bad and so is his breathing was changed right toward the end. He opened his eyes completely and he looked up he look straight ahead.

22:01 And I know the angels and Saints were coming to get him.

22:06 And then he laid down and died right then.

22:09 The most wonderful sunlight came in the windows the bright bright bright bright as Sun you can match tinted windows.

22:18 And so

22:21 I knew.

22:23 He was gone and he was a piece.

22:28 And so I I just lay there with him and I sat there while he lay there. He was dead and the nurse left the room.

22:39 And then

22:41 His daughter-in-law came in she was very shocked and he died. You know, she didn't know he was that close to death, but she was really shocked. And so we started talking for a while is Stewart's body lying there and

22:58 Then after a few minutes I said to her I said do you want to help me bathe Stuart because you know, that's what you do you pay the dead body.

23:10 And she said no, I don't she just said no. I don't think she felt comfortable doing that. So I proceeded to bathe him. I took a wash rag and wipe his body with a wash rag and was

23:27 So I wash his body and then she had to leave she had to go pick up her daughter Stewart's granddaughter and so Stewart and I were just in the room together and I thought you know, we can't have priests here. We're still very strong Catholic should know priests can come in. So I said let me get the two strongest prayers. I know the most Catholic women. I know you on the phone, so I called glory and Brenda backup.

23:55 And both of them got on the phone to people who were on the phone he was dying and I told her we were there was Stewart's body and they needed to pray him away because this was the last time we were going to be with his body and we needed to stay a lot of prayers for his body and for him and so they got out some Catholic Books they had which they have many and they know a lot of Catholic prayer and

24:22 They said all kind of wonderful Catholic prayers and the ones I knew I joined in with and so we prayed they prayed for maybe 20 minutes. And then I think they said well, I think that's it Ginger. I think I think we've done a good job. We've got we got us Stewart prayed to heaven and I said, okay, that sounds good and

24:49 So

24:51 That was it and and I kissed him. Goodbye.

24:55 Cuz he was going to be cremated. So this was the last time we were going to be with his body. Oh and well while I was bathing his body or right after I pay this body, I I made the sign of the cross on his forehead and his hand over his heart and all his feet which is what we do with Catholics.

25:18 Anyway, so I left and I was at peace.

25:23 And of course you were here when I got home.

25:26 I was kicked out of the hospital. I don't want to go.

25:32 And iiii

25:37 Call Father Henry and told him see what he died and I asked him I had forgotten forgotten us after he looked up and he looked up his eyes wide open and looking a greeting the angels that were coming to greet him. He kind of he didn't gas. He kind of had a distressed look on his face and then he died. And so I asked father Henry when I called him on the phone. I said Potter Henry explain. I told him what happened. I said what was that father with when Stuart aghast or seem to be in distress? They are when he died and he said well that was his his soul leaving his body.

26:22 He said he said the soul didn't want to leave his body, but it did.

26:28 And I think their stories like that. I mean, I just recalled people telling stories about that kind of death experience people observing that it at the death of a loved one.

26:42 So anyway, so then we made a couple weeks later. We made arrangements for his new memorial service what you planned and then anyway, so that's why I'm just so I struck by the tenderness that you

27:01 And you were telling the story and it's one of the most beautiful things.

27:07 For me looking back on your relationship is the the tenderness and the love. I never heard you ever the two of you speak unkindly to each other which is I don't know if you realize how rare that is and the fact that you had this big age difference in a lot of people would say, well that's not advisable or whatever it would be and he had children before the two of you and and all of that but do you think that your relationship was special was unique was unusual comparative to friends you have and in other people

27:48 Well

27:50 I never knew a happy marriage until I was about 25 and I saw my my aunt remarried a man who really loved her and who she really loved and so I think that was the first good marriage I ever saw. So this is the way people are supposed to treat each other cuz I didn't know that I didn't know that but I think because of the circumstances under which Stewart and I met he really was the only man I've ever loved he really was, you know, being the age she was I was 30 and he was 52 53 when we got married, you know, he was a grown-up is so terrible to say because I was a grown up to but I mean like 35, I don't know. I just look back and I think you know, they just maybe weren't very mature and Stewart, you know, he was just a really solid person. He was a good person and you know

28:50 Knew who he was and you know, there was never really any faults or identity crisis or middle-age crisis mean. I've never seen men have those but I hear about him. And so it had I married a younger man maybe that he would have had that I don't know but you know, we just had so much in common and the fact that God brought us together. There's just no question that God brought us together and you know, so how could that sale because God brought us together. It's what God wanted for us. So I'm struck by the the certainty of the way you say that I think that's really remarkable and I do notice to that your relationship not only had two compatibility and there was an element, you know, I met you and you're so I met you when you were probably just about 60 and Stewart was just about 80.

29:46 To you no sew and you were doing physical caring for him at that point and yet what I remember to is your ability to just be extremely patient and listen for him no matter how long it took him to speak and I just I just found that really remarkable quality that you are both also working and social justice and you treated you treated each other with the dignity that you also treated other folks and and it was a great privilege for me to watch that your relationship as well as how you were with other folks. So you had this connection around social justice that I've never seen either a really good marriage that also was not just in and of itself but was in the community and one of my Joys was with you down at the shrine.

30:46 You were doing the the Foot Care Ministry in would you like to share a little I'd love to hear a little bit about the Foot Care Ministry and how you got that Goin and any fun stories you might like to share from well. I was helping with Foot Care at the night shelter for many many years when they start at st. Anthony's night shelter out in West End Atlanta. And then we moved a damn town to the downtown shelter. We moved that Minister downtown where we would care for the men's feet because you know walking on their feet all day and M fitting shoes. We saw a lot of problems and then had it so we started Foot Care Ministry so that we could help with that and over the course of the five months and then when the shelter it did help them and we had funds to get them new shoes as they needed them so Stewart, so I was already doing that and Stewart and I'm married and

31:46 He started coming down and doing foot care. He first started doing water because he thought oh maybe I really can't do feet and you first start doing the water for spilling the water buckets up so that we the men could soak your feet and eventually he became somebody that did speak to and he took over the running of the Foot Care Ministry. So we make sure we have the supplies. We have the phone two years. We've had the funds for the shoes every aspect related to Foot Care he could he ran it and the guys always called him doc. None of us were doctors early early on but they always called him. So we come in and say they really I didn't know that. How are you most of the shelter and they they looked at him as a father because he was so much older than many of them. He had such great compassion and care for

32:46 NE treated them with such respect and dignity which the men on the street or not used to and they really had a wonderful relationships Stewart off and talk about that and then it's over the last couple years when he wasn't able to come down to put care with me every Wednesday night. The guys would say where's doc tonight? And we're Stewart and well, that's how you know, he's not feeling well tonight or something and it wouldn't you know, which was true or you couldn't make it tonight or something but they always remember him you do not really for this scale. I don't think it will though he was as good as any of the rest of us doing fee but the compassion and tenderness with which he treated the men and the dignity he gave them and and he's remembered by all those guys at we're still at the shelter who return year after year and that's always a beautiful thing in one respect. It has been good not to go to put your this year because of covid-19.

33:46 Because I thought it was going to be very difficult for me to be there without you.

33:52 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think in some ways it's a real blessing for you besides which the squirrels ate the equipment the rest.

34:07 That we have to feel that story and mellow people won't get that. So yeah, so all the Foot Care stuff was left inside of the shrine waiting for us to come back you to come back. And in the meantime of that came in and decided to eat shoes coffee machine that you'll start a new so you will

34:35 Without we will mourn the loss of Stuart in the ministry, but there is something powerful about getting all new equipment at this point and and maybe we can do some kind of memorial for Stewart when we do get back to me and I didn't realize you've been doing it for so long ginger while that's incredible. So you're in Stuarts Devotion to the poor in this day and age with the politics that we have is remarkable and a wonderful Testament to a life well-lived. Do you think that Stewart felt like his life was well lived. I think he probably felt

35:21 There is always more to do.

35:24 And is he became more infirm and he regretted not being able to do it. I know that his daughter tells us told the story and his at his memorial service out the kids Margie who's in New Zealand. They talked once a month and you had just gotten arrested at one of the protest and in early June or may be proud of its private gym playlist called us and told us and so Margie relays the story of being on the phone with Stewart on that Tuesday evening, I guess after your rest Stewart was telling her about your rest of the protest and he told Margie he said my only regret was that I couldn't be with her because she wanted to be arrested with you. And so you know, I know we always felt there was more there was more to do there was more to do and

36:24 He did what he could you know, that is a party allowed him to do.

36:30 I Know Gotye wishes body could have lasted a bit longer because I think you know his presence of Mind was still very much there, you know, and he was still out word focused all the way to the end and that's the remarkable to that, you know and overnight. He and I were listening to a presentation by Reverend Jackie Lewis up in New York about racism. That was hope she was talking about an hour and a half with some other leaders. I was on that with you remember that and then this is called was over by 8:30 and we called you up and we talked about it and what she wants it she made and maybe planning what else we wanted to do related racial justice issues. And and so that was the last evening he was alive and that's how we spent it.

37:27 And then we listen to right before bed. We listen to a podcast Krista Tippett on being with her of a monk or brother who I think is in Denmark an end. The topic was gratitude and he talked about even in the worst tragedies. We need to find areas where we can be grateful. So these are some of the last name Stewart heard last things I heard with him which really put things in perspective the next day and and now about gratitude and I and I am very grateful.

38:03 Yeah, and the fact that I got to tell him I loved him that night. I will be forever grateful that you cuz we never know we could have never known the next morning. He would have his stroke.

38:19 So he will always be in my heart. I will never forget that he shares a birthday with my only child July 14th. They will forever be buddies in that way. And if there's one real blessing that's come out of his death. It's that we have been able to get to really know each other because I think before and some way Stuart was the center of our relationship which was wonderful and I love him dearly and I always will

38:51 But now we have been able to become friends and really get to know each other and be there for each other through this difficult year and you are a blessing my friend. So Ginge, thank you so much for being willing to do this together. It's it's been tremendous.

39:14 Yeah, and I love you and I love Stewart and thank you God for bringing us all together. I appreciate you wanting to do this and I love you, too.

39:31 Okay Stewart was tall with gray hair and he was an accountant.

39:44 He loved numbers. He loved anything numbers and one of the things that you talked about about getting along with him. People. Didn't know we've never had fights about it, but I sure didn't like pulling together information for tax returns. In fact, I hated it, but I did it. Maybe this The Testament to my love for him. I did it every year over Thanksgiving I go through all my receipts and everything and all the documentation together and present it to him in the orderly fashion. Which expected

40:23 And the last three or four years because of his vision. I helped him with all of that on his computer and I even did QuickBooks with him, which was I thought we were going to get divorced. It was so horrible. Oh my God, it was so horrible. There's so many things to do on QuickBooks and he said well, it's just right there cuz he couldn't see the poor guy and finally got helped me and I was able to find whatever tab I was supposed to click and put whatever numbers in I was supposed to put in but but clearly we don't have a ginger yet in the communion of saints. Do you know he was tall and he was thin and he had the most remarkably light blue eyes.

41:10 Hey, Dad, any War about the same clothes as you did which always made me laugh you both were the same kind of collared shirts you both wear the same pants. Just crack me up and you're both tall and thin.