Gwen Short Interview

00:02 Hi. This is. This interview is part of St. Kate's StoryCorps nursing interviews. My name is Lori Winchell. I'm 71 years old. Today's date is November 3, 2023. I'm speaking with my partner, Gwen Short, who is my colleague, and I am recording this interview in St. Paul, Minnesota.

00:23 My name is Gwen Short. I am also 71 years old. Today's date is November 3, 2023. I am speaking with Lori Winchell, who is my former colleague, actually. And I am recording this interview in St. Paul, Minnesota.

00:42 So, Gwen, I have. I'm going to go through some questions. You don't need to follow them exactly. If you feel comfortable, you know, you can talk about any other parts of your career that you would like to include in this interview. So let's start with. Tell me about your decision to become a nurse.

01:03 My decision to become a nurse happened actually kind of overnight. I made a decision in a day that that's what I was going to be. I had married young and had a child and worked to support my husband while he was in school. So when it came my time to go to school, I thought, well, what do I want to study? And it was in the early seventies, so there were still some societal restrictions on what women did. Not that you couldn't go out of that restriction, but I thought either teaching or nursing, and I thought nursing sounded more interesting.

01:52 So you sound like you were influenced by more of your culture, society's culture.

02:01 Well, actually, what happened was that, you know, I think in families always play a big part in why people choose to do what they do. And my father had just died when I made a decision to go into nursing. I was about 24, I think. No, he died when I was 21. So it was not long after that that I made the decision to go into nursing. And he would have rolled over in his grave if he had known I went into nursing, because he was a feminist. He was an early feminist, and he did not want either of his daughters to go into a women's profession. So my sister, who was older than me, went into business, which she hated, although she was very successful at it, she did not. She wanted to be a teacher, but he steered her away from teaching. And because he had died before I made my decision, I had a little bit more freedom to choose what I wanted. So I chose nursing, and he died rather young. So I was really into prevention at the time. Like, what could have prevented him from having an early death? So it was all, you know, a combination of my interests and my family and you know, timing of things.

03:23 Okay. So to become a nurse, describe your educational path. Where did you receive your training and education?

03:34 Well, unlike many nurses that I have gotten to know over the years, I. I knew I wanted to get a college degree. That was my goal. Nursing was a way for me to do that. A lot of nurses want to be a nurse, although do the nursing assistant LPN three years. I just knew I wanted to get a college degree, so it. So I. My first interest in nursing was in a college or a university setting, so I went to the University of Virginia.

04:06 Okay, and why did you choose the University of Virginia?

04:09 That's where I was living at the time. I was living in Charlottesville. I was married. My husband had a job there. Actually, before I went to. I went to William and Mary for a year, then stayed out of school for three years, then went to a community college for a year, which was incredibly wonderful. Community college experience was great. And then I transferred into the University of Virginia.

04:32 What was great about the community college?

04:35 They just knew how to teach.

04:36 That's awesome.

04:37 And as a student, that's what you were there for, to learn great teachers.

04:41 So that was your prerequisite.

04:43 Yeah. Before you went into nursing and what I had gotten at the William and Mary.

04:49 So then you went on to become a nurse practitioner. So tell me about your educational.

04:58 So I knew I didn't want to be a nurse in the hospital. I did labor and delivery for. For about a year and a half, and then I went into public health. Interestingly, at my program at the University of Virginia, they had started a new educational process. So you focused on whether you wanted to be a public health person or whether you wanted to be a hospital person. So the students who wanted to go into public health or what they called the wellness track did their clinical rotations, were in nursing homes, public health departments, assisted living, a lot of outpatient settings. The students who wanted to be in the hospital had ICU, burn unit, er rotations. So I went through school without ever having to do any really in hospital work. I did work as a nursing assistant for a few summers, and I did hospital work then, but I was very much in the community, so I got out and I practiced public health for six or seven years, then really got tired of the bureaucracy and the paperwork. So I went back to school, and I got my masters in public health, and I got out of nursing for about five or six years, and then decided I missed one on one work with patients, so decided to go back to school and get my NP. So by then I think I had been a nurse for about 15 years when I went back to get my NP or a nurse or a public health educator is what I ended up doing.

06:58 So how long did you practice as an NP and in what types of settings?

07:02 As an NP. So let's see, I've been an NP since 95, and we're now in 2023. So I practiced in a lot of qualified health, FQHC, federally qualified health center settings.

07:23 Could you explain that a little bit more?

07:26 Well, when I went to NP school, I financed, I was going through divorce, so I needed to finance my education, and I became a National Health Service Corps scholar, which paid my schooling. So I needed to do a payback to them, and I needed to work at sites that qualified. And so I worked for an FQHC Indian clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota. They closed shop abruptly because of management issues. So then I went to work for healthcare for the homeless in Minneapolis. And from there I moved back to Kentucky to teach at the University of Kentucky. And while there, they started the DNP program, first ever in the country in 2001. So as faculty, I could do that program free of charge. So I did that program while working at another FQHC and then later transferred over to the university's family medical or family practice medical clinic, where I worked in training residents. Family medical, family practice. Medical residents.

08:48 So you're a family nurse practitioner?

08:50 I'm an f and P. Right.

08:53 And when you started teaching, you were teaching in the FMP program. Were you also working clinically?

09:02 Yeah. Yeah. It was a combo. It was a combo, yeah. And that started in 99, and from 99 onward, I taught and practiced until I retired this year.

09:13 Yep. So what types of roles and responsibilities did you hold in these different positions?

09:25 Primarily in the clinical setting? I was a clinician and I precepted students. I did have one job out in Oregon, eastern Oregon, for a year and a half, where I was the clinic, the director of the clinical enterprise, which was included. That was after I got my DNP. Okay. I got my mSn first, and then I got my DNP years later. And in that role, I was an administrator and a supervisor and a director. I left that role after a fairly short time because the university was having, again, some management issues, so. And that's when I moved back to Minnesota once again and took a position at the University of Minnesota, teaching.

10:16 Oh. How long were you at the University of Minnesota?

10:18 Two years. Two years.

10:20 And then when did you start teaching at St. Kate's?

10:23 Right. Well, I went to frontier nursing from the University of Minnesota. And then I stayed there about four years, and then I came to St. Kate's and stayed about eight years.

10:37 So at Frontier, was that online or in person?

10:40 A combo, mostly online, but we did get together twice a year to interact with students.

10:47 And then at St. Kate's, that was in person?

10:50 Yeah, it was in person primarily.

10:52 And it was a graduate program.

10:53 Right.

10:54 And you were actually the program manager?

10:56 Right. I was the. I got hired as the program coordinator, and the management structure changed and we were elevated to program directors. And I did that for about, well, like eight years until I left.

11:11 What types of responsibilities were included in that role?

11:17 In the academic role, the responsibilities are teaching and scholarship and service. So that's how they divide up our responsibilities in academia. And so I worked clinically, primarily at the people's center over on the West bank in Minneapolis. That was my clinical work. And then I was the program director, which was partly, I think they called it, my service. And then academically, I taught classes in the nurse practitioner program.

11:52 What classes did you teach?

11:54 Health promotion, primary care for chronic illness and chronic conditions and illnesses for adults. What else? I had a clinical group, so I visited people in their clinical sites. I taught the outcome evaluation course. I taught pharmacology to the misnail students. So basically a lot of different courses. And in the DNP program, I taught a lot of DNP courses.

12:29 And then you also, did you do evaluations of the other faculty?

12:32 Right, right. In my supervisory role, I evaluated the. The faculty, yeah.

12:37 And worked on curriculum development.

12:39 Oh, yes. Oh, yes. See, you know this as well as I do.

12:45 So you kind of described your affiliation with St. Kate's. What actually brought you to St. Kate's? Why St. Kate's and not somewhere else?

12:58 I wanted to work at St. Kate's. I didn't think I wanted to work at St. Kate's initially. I lived right down the block, and I. People said, why don't you try to get a job there? And I never really had an interest until the graduate associate dean for nursing knew me from frontier. She had worked as frontier and had come here, and she was looking for a program director. And I thought about it and decided to apply, and so got the job. And I liked, what drew me to St. Kate's was its mission focus. And I knew some of the faculty here, and the pay is horrible, but the rewards are great and some of the non quantifiable rewards. And I was at a point in my life where that made more difference than the money.

13:58 Yes, I understand. So as you walk through these different experiences. What challenges did you face on your path or journey to becoming a nurse, nurse practitioner, faculty, academic person?

14:15 Well, I do remember they always talked in school about reality shock when you get out of school, and I didn't really know what that would look like. And once you graduate and you get out, you realize what it looks like. It's very uncomfortable. I don't think that the academic setting prepares you well for that. I think we've gotten better over the years. Preparing students for reality shock.

14:46 Explain that a little bit more or give some examples of reality shock.

14:50 I think that the things that motivate humans that are really basic to our nature when we're three years old and they never go away, they're things that can cause a lot of tension in the workplace and a lot of stress and just learning how to deal with people. We don't learn that in school. We still don't learn that in school as far as how to deal with all of the human behaviors that are not logical, that are not kind, that are not really coming from a place of strength. And so you get out into the workplace and you encounter these experiences that no one ever prepared you for in.

15:50 The work setting with your colleagues or with your patients.

15:54 Mostly, I think with colleagues, I mean, patients too, but you kind of learn, you know, how to interact with patients. It's really the systems of care and collegial relationships that can be difficult. And for nurses, you know, when I started out, nurses still had not been out of the handmaiden role for very long.

16:18 Right.

16:19 It's very much different now, but talk.

16:22 About that, how it used to be. And because you were part of that change agent where nurses moved into a bigger role.

16:32 Yeah, I think that the medical hierarchy was alive and well back in the early in the seventies when we became nurses. And part of the way to avoid that is to go into public health. And I think a lot of nurses went into public health because of that. More autonomy, less what seem to be really stupid rules for behavior allowing, you know, when, when you're sitting in the hospital and a physician walks into the pod, you automatically give your seat to the physician. Nurses today would be shocked to hear that we actually lived through that, and it was just what you did. So I wasn't really, my personality didn't lend itself well to that, so I needed to not be in that environment. And it wasn't just physicians. It was the nurse managers who rewarded people. I remember once a nurse manager, she called me on the phone. It was in a labor and delivery unit. And I answered the phone and she critiqued me on how I answered the phone. And not too long after that, I left. You know, nobody tells me how to answer the phone. I'm sorry.

18:00 I totally understand. I'm of that generation. I do understand. So in what ways was it more freeing in the nurse practitioner role in public health? The autonomy.

18:14 You mean in public health as a nurse?

18:16 As a nurse.

18:16 Because I wasn't an NP then. The role of the public health nurse is outside of an institution. I mean, you still work within a government facility typically, but immunization clinics you run. I ran a tb clinic. I ran a children's, crippled children's, what we call that then. It's not called that now. I don't know what it's called now. Clinic. So the nurses ran all those. And we used physicians as consultants, right? Yeah.

18:54 A lot more independence and autonomy, and that varies from state to state.

19:00 Yes. And I did that in Idaho and it was absolutely lovely. That was my first public health job and then I moved to Minnesota and not as lovely here. So, yeah, that's when I decided to go back and, well, that's when I decided to get out of nursing and go into public health as a public health practitioner.

19:21 I see.

19:22 So if that makes sense.

19:23 How is that different as a public nursing versus public health practitioner?

19:29 Well, you can be a nurse and be a public health practitioner, but you don't have to be a nurse. I think I was the only nurse in the organization where I worked. And what public health focuses on are things like epidemiology and looking at the larger picture. And our population was urban Native Americans. That was our population group. And we were an organization that lobbied. And, you know, I went to Washington quite a bit to lobby for them and for that group, and we had programs that addressed certain health disparities amongst urban indian groups.

20:13 So. Always amazed at, here we are, we're nurses, we go into this role and you think you're just going to take care of patients. But as you get more involved into healthcare systems, you realize you also have to be political and stand up for your group.

20:30 Absolutely.

20:31 Representing.

20:32 Yeah. Even to provide one on one care, you need to be savvy about the bigger picture.

20:38 Right. Even how. How to help people access health care or help to house a homeless person. It's. It always amazes me, and I don't think nurses getting out understand that.

20:52 I think it's a hard lesson for students to learn because they don't, some of them don't want to do that. And I think you feel that and push back in your health promotion class sometimes because you do have to look at the wider healthcare arena, and a lot of nurses just want to take care of the patient.

21:14 Right. It's definitely not a nine to five job as a secretary where you take your hour lunch and you leave. It's just not that way.

21:22 When I lived in or when I lived in Minnesota and worked for the homeless, I worked for Hennepin county. And Hennepin county has a wealth of resources, so our patients got really good care. And if we needed mental health intervention, we had a mental health person there right away. If they needed meds, we sent them to Hennepin County Hospital where they got free meds. And then I moved to Kentucky.

21:49 Yes.

21:50 And there was no safety net. And that's the difference in looking at the broader picture, depending on where you live, makes a big difference in the resources that are available to you. That's right.

22:05 That's right. So nursing includes advocating for your patients and your populations that you're serving. So what are your best experiences? What are the highlights of being a nurse nurse practitioner in your career?

22:29 Gee, that's not an easy question because it's been over a long time period. I think probably just for me personally, it's been the experiences that I've had working all over the country and having different types of people that I've worked with. That's probably been the best thing for me. But that's my interest. I like working with different kinds of people.

23:01 So what's been your most challenging experiences?

23:06 Dealing with systems of care or lack of resources is the most difficult, I think. And second would be some types of professional issues that can arise with being a nurse practitioner. I think NP's are typically accepted now in 2013, but it has not always been that way. And just recently, the Illinois providers have decided to strike form a union. Rather sorry. And included in that group are physicians, NDOs and pas, and NP's providers of all types. So that would not have happened 20 years ago.

24:01 You're right. 20 years ago I worked in the county and they had a union and nurse practitioners were not invited to be in that union with physicians.

24:10 Yeah. Yeah. So now I think physicians are, you know, they're educated differently. Everybody is educated differently now than 20 years ago because it's always a constant change in responding to healthcare issues and political issues.

24:28 Now, that's an interesting comment. It's changed. How has the educational system changed what you've observed in the changes occurring from when you first started in education? To now?

24:41 Well, I think one of the big changes, and thank goodness, you know, thank goodness for the Institute of Medicine, which I know has been renamed to, I don't know what it is now, but when they came out with their report around the turn of the century regarding where errors are made in healthcare and how communication is really a big cause, poor communication is a big cause of patient error and poor patient outcome. And also that the hierarchy of medicine is a detriment to patient care and patient outcomes. I think that that was a message that said we need to look at our whole system of healthcare. And, you know, the fact that having prima donnas is not a good thing in healthcare and that that has changed.

25:44 You see that change?

25:45 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

25:47 So you think we've gone from more of a vertical model to a horizontal.

25:50 Model or maybe a 45 degree in a way. I mean, I think human nature is always about power. And so the people in power now are the business people. I mean, physicians have lost their power. They used to have all the power, but now they don't. And that's why I think we're, you know, they're unionizing. And so it's always in flux. It's always in flux.

26:19 When you say business model, do you feel it's more insurances practicing medicine or explain?

26:26 No, I saw a statistic just yesterday. I think about how the percentage of healthcare administrators has grown in the thousands of percentages in 20 years.

26:40 Wow.

26:41 Whereas healthcare providers have not.

26:44 Have they decreased?

26:45 No, they're steadily increasing. But I believe. But the health care, the point of the story was that healthcare administrators are just, they're everywhere, so they're making these decisions. And health care, not that it's necessarily bad to have administrators, but if you get all your resources going toward administration, it would make sense that that might decrease the quality of your healthcare if you don't put your resources towards healthcare service, healthcare provision. Now, I'm sure that, I mean, that's a complex issue that I obviously not. I don't know a lot about. It's just, it seems to make sense that you would want to more resources going to providers and patients.

27:43 Do you see that happening in academic settings for healthcare professionals where it's more administrators and moving away from what the students need?

27:54 I haven't really thought much about that. I know that you and I have spoken about that a little bit, but I haven't really. I don't know. I don't know about that.

28:06 Okay. So can you comment on the use of computers in the healthcare setting? Has the practice of nursing changed? How has the profession of nursing changed in relation to AI? And what do you think the risks and values are of technology in a healthcare setting?

28:28 I don't think we know what the risks are for use of computers. I think we look, I think in our society we typically develop technology before we do an analysis of the impact of technology on what we're doing. I think across society we do that. When you and I went to school, we were always told to listen to the, you know, face the patient, listen to the patient. Don't be writing notes while the patient is talking. Well, that's gone out the door. Right. And the younger patients nowadays don't seem to mind that you're not looking at them because they're looking at their smartphones while you're in front of the computer and they're checking their email and you're writing down the answers to their questions. They're very good at multitasking, but some of the older patients still feel that. They feel slighted if you don't do it the old fashioned way.

29:33 Do you think that's affected communication?

29:36 I think with. Yeah, I think it could. I think.

29:41 Or communications, the way people communicate has just changed with a third party.

29:48 So what comes first, the chicken or the egg? I think that, you know, the new generation is different in that they're much more comfortable with technology than us older folks. We have learned how to use computers because it was a necessity. We had to. Right. I mean, I could do a paper chart really fast. I learned all the shorthand. But learning how to use the computers is a whole different skill. And as far as it impacting communication, I'm sure it has impacted communication. I mean, when you're checking off boxes, it's a whole different process than when you're involved in conversation.

30:36 Well, do you think that when you're busy checking off boxes, you're not really looking at your patient and evaluating them and missing.

30:43 Yeah, I do.

30:44 Missing, like, certain big red flags.

30:47 Yeah, I think that that's definitely a possibility. I've seen that in clinical, especially nurses. And when they, you know, they don't know how to do a note because they're, they're checking off their boxes. And, and I have seen where checking off the box. I've seen providers just, that's what their focus is. Let's get this box checked out off.

31:12 So do you think they miss things, like somebody whose colors changed or looking at the patient and really being able to assess what's going on with them physically because they're so busy looking at the computer.

31:27 I think what gets missed primarily is the story. When we learned how to interact with patients, we were told to listen to the story. That's where you're going to find out your information. And sometimes I think that gets lost.

31:46 Yeah, that is a great point. So has your career been influenced by the history of the AIDS epidemic or Covid family planning issues? I know that's a big thing right now. Pro life, pro choice.

32:08 Not significantly, I think, you know, as a nurse or as a nurse practitioner, you have your own beliefs, but if you're good at what you do, you meet your patient where they're at and you learn how to be in that moment with the patient. I did work at the Red Door clinic in Minneapolis, STD clinic for a number of years, and it was before AIDS became curable. So that was an interesting part of my work, to work with people who were AIDS, HIV positive, because at that point it was still a death sentence.

32:52 Right. And it was an epidemic and there was homophobia occurring.

32:55 Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, you just try to take every patient as you see them and see what their needs are and see what their educational needs are. And I figure that's what our work is. That's what our job is, particularly in public health. I just, you know, I have geared my life toward living in a state that allows me to do my job. I could not live in Idaho right now because of what they have done with their laws.

33:29 Right?

33:29 Yeah. And their abortion laws. So that's creating havoc for the Obgyns there.

33:38 Yeah, it is. It is. So if you had three wishes for the nursing profession for the future, what would they be?

33:53 I wish that nurses would become more politically involved. We have such a large number of nurses, and so a few of them are in office, and I think that would be good for nursing and the public. The second would be, I think that on a national level, we could use a bit more support from the government. And I know a lot of the work that was done by the Institute of Medicine really was positive about nurses and having every profession worked. The scope, the limit of their scope. Right. So nurses and physicians and others need to be able to practice according to what their abilities are and what their scope of practice allows them to practice. That. And a third, let's see, nursing has changed so much since I've been a nurse that I think that one of the things that I am really happy about, and it's already kind of come about, is that nursing is more respected now than it used to. Be. When you and I went into nursing, Lori, it was. I mean, that's why my dad didn't want me to be a nurse. He didn't think it was a very respectable profession, and I don't see that now. I see nurses as having quite a bit of respect from the public and from themselves, too. I think nurses need to own that. So.

35:51 Taking that a step further, what are three wishes for you, Gwen?

35:56 Oh, well, I'm retired now, so what does that mean? That means that I'm taking a 40 year profession and putting it on the back burner. How does that feel? Weird. Yeah, weird, yeah. But I think people retire differently. And when you're a woman and you have a family and you have children and you have a career, things you don't have a lot of say about what you pay attention to because you have all these have tos, then when you retire, it's like, oh, well, this is strange, but maybe now I can pay attention to some things that I wanted to do. So I am not going to be. I have already decided that when my license is over, it's over. Yeah. So I'll do other things.

36:56 But you still carry those nursing values with you, like exercise, nutrition.

37:01 Oh, yeah, yeah. And public health. Once you get into public health, you're a goner. I agree. It's like you see, you see the world in a different way. You do, and there's no going back.

37:15 Have you found that it sometimes affects your interactions with other people who don't understand that?

37:21 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because you know what it's like when you're in public health. You're always thinking the big picture. Always. And it's hard to narrow it down. And so when people are looking at their own spot in whatever place it is, I mean, that's important, but it's not what your focus is. Your focus is larger than that.

37:44 Right, right. So this is a retrospective question. What do you wish you would have known or that somebody would have told you before you went into nursing.

38:00 Maybe how hard it was? Yeah, nursing is hard.

38:04 It is.

38:06 I remember my mother had breast cancer and I went with her to see her surgeon, and I was in nursing school and he said to me, you know, that's a really hard job, don't you? And I didn't have any idea what he was telling me. I said, yeah, yeah.

38:22 You don't. No, it's not a nine to five.

38:24 No, it's hard.

38:28 So we've got a few questions adding on to that, what makes nursing different than other professions?

38:40 I was always really happy that I could make money without selling my soul. That always felt really good. And I know, you know, not all professions require you to sell your soul, but there are a few that, where you have to have situational ethics that may not really align with your. With your value system. And so now I can't remember your question.

39:15 Well, before you start. Well, it was really before you described your profession, what would have made it. Before you started into your nursing career, what would have made a difference? If you wish somebody would have told you before you started.

39:30 Well, like I said, that it was hard.

39:32 Right.

39:33 Yeah. And. But I'm really glad I don't have a typical nurse's personality. You know, they've done Myers Briggs, if you believe in that. Right. And the typical nurse is an extrovert, a sensor, a feeler, and a judger. So they like closure. And I don't fit any of those, except for the feeler part. So I don't really have the personality for a nurse. But it has been good for me because it has made me rooted. It has helped me to be rooted. Being a nurse has helped me to be more rooted. I could be an artist, except I don't have the talent. Yeah.

40:18 Well, isn't nursing kind of art?

40:20 It can be. Yeah, it can be. Interacting with people can be.

40:24 Well, and they're like a canvas and figuring out the diagnosis.

40:28 Yeah.

40:29 Kind of artsy. Changing a dressing and how you want to put it on there and do the tape or suturing how you want to suture. So, taking that a step further, tell us about the time when you advocated for a patient or advocated for an ethical value. What happened when you did that? There was a situation because you were talking a little bit about ethics. And so what situation stands out?

41:05 Well, I don't know if this really fits the bill. It goes more toward my rebellious streak, I think. So I had a patient who had been in an altercation on campus, so on the hospital campus with his partner, he was a male who was a male partner, and he'd gotten hit in the head, and he had an open area on his head. So he came to see me, and I was at a family practice clinic, and we always had to check out with our preceptors. Right. Or we call them the preceptor. It was the attending physician who was, who was running the show that day. And so I had a question about him, and I went to the attending and said, you know, what should I do with this guy? I can't even remember what my question was. It was a medical question. But during that interaction, he told me that I needed to report this to the police. So I thought, I can't do this. I'm not going to report this to the police. He doesn't want me to report it to the police. The patient doesn't. The attending said, no, you got to report it to the police. So I said, okay. So I didn't address it directly. I went back to the patient and I said, I decided he didn't need stitches. He just needed a clean. And I said, I need to report this to the police. So what I recommend you do, because he knew. He didn't want that to happen, is you need to leave. You need to leave the. You need to leave here. And I gave him all the stuff that he needed to, and then. So that he wouldn't be there when the police showed up. So the police never showed up. But at least I got him out of there because I. You know, when you go against your supervisor in an institutional setting, I like to follow the rules. Right. Unless they're stupid. And I thought that was a stupid rule. And so, okay, how can I follow the rule while still taking care of the patient? Because he didn't want. He didn't want that kind of. It was his partner.

43:19 Right, right.

43:20 He just wanted his head taken care of.

43:22 Right.

43:22 So. So that's how I got around that. It wasn't really an advocacy situation. It was more like, okay, how did I take care of the patient without getting him involved in the institutional. Protecting the patient?

43:35 You were advocating for the patient.

43:37 Yeah. And nobody ever called me out on that.

43:39 Right.

43:39 So. So I. I slipped under that. What about.

43:45 What about as a. As a program manager in an educational system? Have there been any ethical issues that arose, faculty to faculty, student to faculty?

43:59 Yeah, I think that dealing with ethical issues occurred daily in a clinical practice or in an academic setting. And, yeah, when you're administrative. Sorry, you're always having to try to deal with the situation properly, but, you know, considering everybody's viewpoint and so, yeah, I mean, that's just part of the daily thing that you do, and I can't.

44:37 You don't even really think of it as you just march through it, solve it.

44:42 Right, right. You just. It's just who you are and what you do and the nature of the beast. Yeah.

44:50 Okay. So, you know, and you've heard this saying, nurses eat their young. Did you ever have that experience of being shunned, sidelined, gossiped about in the nursing profession? And if you did, how did you handle it. I mean, it could be challenges by a physician or a major medical corporation or racism in the workplace.

45:16 Yeah, I have pretty thick skin, or whatever you call it. Things just go over me. So I'm sure that I've had many instances where there have been, you know, physicians who called me out on stuff or administrators who called me out on stuff, but I never let it really get to me that much.

45:47 Do you think that's the nurse practitioner? We're leaders. We are the. We have to be thick skinned because.

45:54 There'S so much work to be done. You know, you don't have time to stew, you don't have time to fight. You don't have time to, you know, you only have so much energy, and so you just kind of get the job done and. Yeah.

46:14 So St. Case was founded by the sisters of Saint Joseph of Carondelet on the value to love the dear neighbor without distinction. Have you been able to live this value through your profession in nursing?

46:28 Yeah, I've tried. Yeah, that was one of the things that attracted me to St. Kate's. And I think they do. It's hard as an institution to fulfill a mission that's so, you know, hippy dippy, so to speak, or touchy feely. And I think in the world today, we don't give stuff like that enough credence. But to be a good leader, I think you need to really care about what you're doing and the people you do it for and the people you do it with. And I think that St. Kate's really tries to do that.

47:12 So as you retire, how can you actualize the values of nursing, caring, advocacy, ethics, community models of care?

47:24 Well, I'm training my dog to be a therapy dog right now.

47:29 See, there you go.

47:30 So I'm doing things that I'm, you know, I like to spend time with my dog, and I want her to be happy, and she might be able to make some other people happy. So I don't think that's a community model, but it actually, it's an individual. So as a therapy dog, what would she be visiting? I've gone to one. I've observed one setting. Interesting. It was over at St. Thomas, and there are, like, 15 dogs in the library and with their handlers. And the target population was the students. So the students come in and they love up on the dogs, and then they go study for their exams. But we'll also. They take the dogs to nursing homes and the airport. The airport is a place they take some of the dogs. We'll see. Sounds like fun, though, huh?

48:32 Yeah, it does. It sounds like a nice way to retire.

48:35 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

48:37 So I'm going to wrap this up. Do you have anything else you'd like to add or contribute before we finish or conclude?

48:49 No. I think you pretty much delved into my whole professional life there.

48:55 Yeah, well, I'm really happy that you took the time and agreed to participate in this.

49:00 It was fun. Thank you for asking me.

49:02 Now you will be in the archives of story.

49:06 Just what I've always wanted to be archived.

49:09 And St. Kate, so thank you.

49:13 Yeah, you're welcome.