Herb Albert and Karl Kimball

[00:02] HERB ALBERT: Hi, my name is Herb. I'm 71 years old, and today's date is May 11, 2023. And I'm in Coleman Falls, Virginia, and I'm here with my one small step partner, whose name is Karl

[00:21] KARL KIMBALL: Good morning. My name is Karl Kimball. I'm 61 years old. Today's date is May 11, 2023. I'm in El Paso, Texas, and I'm here with my one small step partner, Herb.

[00:41] HERB ALBERT: Okay, Carl's bio I'm a retired practicing Catholic with two children and one grandchild that loves golf and grew up in a rural college town where academics and sports were prioritized and where my conservative values were germinated. I learned early hard work resulted rewards. After graduating in engineering, I worked for 26 years in the oil patch across America and in Asia. Living in conservative and liberal, wealthy and poor communities solidified my conservative roots.

[01:21] KARL KIMBALL: Herbs bio I'm a Christian and believe what God says about us as human beings. Born and raised in New York City and now reside in central Virginia. Spent most summers on my grandparents 350 acre farm. Married for 47 years. Two adult children and five grandchildren. Retired from the Department of Homeland Security. Love life and love people.

[01:55] HERB ALBERT: So, Karl what made you want to join the one small step program today?

[02:06] KARL KIMBALL: Well, whether it's the circumstances of the job career that I took or I, or that you just tend to hang around people that are similar to you, I have few, if any, democratic or liberal friends, and so I don't get much input from that side of the aisle. I can only tolerate some of the liberal media for so long. I tend to turn it off and watch something more conservative. But I'm really just hopeful that through this conversation, I can understand better why someone from the other side of the aisle believes in what they believe in.

[03:03] HERB ALBERT: Okay.

[03:06] KARL KIMBALL: Herb, why did you want to participate in the one step or the one small step program?

[03:14] HERB ALBERT: I think, as you said, Karl I think I hold a similar position with not having many republican friends or conversations even to understand. And my goal and my desire is to better understand without judging or making me right you wrong or vice versa. And I think that the way to accomplish that is. I mean, I think this is a wonderful opportunity and a way to do that in somewhat of a controlled environment where we don't get too extreme in our opinions. Because I think sometimes the conversations can get really heated very quickly, and I think they can lose the ability to hear the other person sometimes. And I think that one of my goals is to become a better listener, not just to hear and to be able to respond, but to understand, like you said, you know, why you believe what you believe. And I think that we have, as individuals, a right to believe what we want to believe, and that should be free of harsh criticism or judgment. But I think that, because I believe that we all want pretty much the same things out of life, I believe that about us as human beings. Now, how we get there is obviously sometimes different. The road we take, the path we take, the beliefs that we have that shape us and make us who we are lead us on a different path of getting there. But I think one of the things that I get very annoyed by is that we don't. In general, I think people don't make enough of an effort to come to the table and sit, to listen and hear and share. I think we just want to kind of hold fast to what our position and our opinion is. And that's it. And I'm right and you're wrong and vice versa. And I don't think that we are ever going to come to any good conclusions by sticking to that kind of frame of mind or that behavior. I think that, you know, because I think that we both want some of the same things out of life, that we probably have more in common than we realize or that we acknowledge than we do that divides us or is different. And I think that there's a way that we can all maybe be better at agreeing or working towards some of the same goals that we may want.

[06:27] KARL KIMBALL: I think that's an excellent, excellent point, that our desires for the same goals are most likely very similar. And it's just different roads that we've chosen to get there. That is what I kind of like us to spend some time talking about, if we can, is which road you choose is a choice. Right. It's up to you to evaluate what you see are the pros and cons, and then you make a choice on which direction you're going. And you mentioned that you didn't have many republican friends, so I assume that you think I'm a Republican, which is a correct assumption. And so I'm assuming that you're a Democrat. And so when I think about the differences between being a Republican or being a Democrat and why do I identify more with the Republicans than Democrats? It's. It's because I think that, and I guess I tend to think more along the lines of self sufficiency. Right. That we should take care of ourselves first. Okay. And that, that I don't need somebody else to take care of me. And my perception is that the democratic party believes that the government should take care of the people. And so that's why I don't associate or align with the democratic party and align more with the Republican Party. Is my perception of the Democratic Party in inaccurate stating that the Democratic Party believes that government should take care of the people?

[08:46] HERB ALBERT: I think to a large degree, yes. I think that your view is correct. I think that's a valid difference that I would agree with. I guess part of, part of why I feel more comfortable or to be more aligned with the Democratic Party is because, I guess growing up in New York City and growing up in this country, I didn't always feel that I had representation in any political party, being an African American. And so I think that the Democratic Party lent more in favor of seeing me as an equal, having equal rights or deserving equal rights, and would fight more for that or would align themselves in a way that would offer me more of that. I didn't see very, very many african american role models growing up. So I didn't have anyone really to look to say or to feel like who was fighting for me, who was advocating on my behalf. I didn't always see that growing up. And I think what I see now is a much more polarized picture when it comes to politics, both in Democrat and Republican. And I think that we're, I think both parties, and, and I don't want to put a label on, on the entire party because I don't believe it's, it's a part, I think individuals have allowed themselves to become more and more polarized, and they take a hard and fast rule, which I disagree with, both for Republicans and Democrats, to take a hard and fast stance where you only align yourself with party alliance, because I think that if we're ever going to be able to kind of compromise and meet in the middle on some things, and I believe that that might be a way of managing this country in a more proficient manner, is being able to agree to disagree, but not to just count out the other side of the aisle. I think we can lose out on more when we just disregard a party totally because of what they represent or who they are. I think that there are a lot of ways in which we can work together to accomplish more good for this country than to kind of stalemate where we are in that process sometimes.

[12:04] KARL KIMBALL: Herb, you mentioned that when you were growing up, you didn't have a lot of role models or you didn't. The way I interpreted what I heard you say was that you, one of the reasons that you have aligned more with the democratic party is that you felt the Democratic Party gave you a voice that they could see you, I think was the term you used. I don't recall exactly, but can you tell me more about that? And how has the democratic party made you, as an African American, feel more visible and giving you a voice?

[13:01] HERB ALBERT: Well, I think it, some of it may have been what they, what the party advocated for more so than the other side of the aisle, voters rights, equal rights, when it comes to voting, housing equity and education and those types of things. I think the democratic party was, in my view, more involved in advocating for or fighting for or wanting to allow those things to become more of a mainstay than the Republican Party. So that, I hope that helps to give you more of a picture of what I mean by saying that I felt that the Democratic Party may have seen me as more valuable than maybe the Republican Party.

[14:00] KARL KIMBALL: Got it. Got it. I. I grew up in eastern Washington, and there was not a lot of African Americans in eastern Washington. I think I only had a one, two African Americans in my graduating class in high school, 180 people. Having said that, race really was never an issue. We never had, at least from my perspective. And of course, it's easy for me to say as a white person, I never felt racism, okay? But I didn't, I didn't feel that we ever used derogatory names towards others. We didn't, we did not exclude others from our various outings or gatherings or whatever. And so, you know, discrimination has always been somewhat of a mystery to me. I understand it intellectually, but not really ever experiencing it has always been kind of, I've struggled to understand how that shapes your views. My wife, who happens to be Hispanic, has taught me a little bit, given me a little more understanding, just because, you know, I always remember a comment or a conversation we were having one time, and she said, whenever she walks into a room, when anybody stares at her, she's thinking that they're thinking, oh, look at that dirty Mexican. Right? My wife is a very attractive woman, right? And whenever she walks into a room, when people look at her, I'm thinking, they think my wife's hot. But I've never experienced discrimination. And she has. Right. And so her perspective was so different than mine that it's like, oh, okay, I kind of get that. You know, and I. It's easy for me to say, you shouldn't think that way. But, you know, that doesn't help, right? I mean, that's how she experiences the world, if you will.

[16:41] HERB ALBERT: Yeah, I think I've never. I've never not experienced discrimination, and if you can imagine that, and I don't. I don't expect other people to understand or to even be cognizant or aware of it on a daily basis or ongoing, because it's not your norm, it's not what you experience, it's not how you might be treated. And so I don't really expect people to understand, but I think that's just a reality of the country and the world that we live in, that there are people who were exploited and used, and that continues even today. And very unique and subtle ways that may not be obvious, but it's kind of inbred in our makeup and in the way we do things. And I experience some of that sometimes on a daily basis. Now, whether or not it's always actual or if it's like you suggested or said, maybe it's my perception. And because of what I have experienced and what I have witnessed, it becomes my. Sometimes it's what I go to because of what I've experienced, you know?

[18:23] KARL KIMBALL: Are you talking. Are you talking about systemic racism?

[18:30] HERB ALBERT: Yes, some of it, yeah, I believe some of it is, yeah, I do.

[18:35] KARL KIMBALL: How would you define or describe that? Maybe not define it, because I think I understand the term systemic racism. And what I heard you say was that you have never not felt discriminated against. So you always feel that you're being discriminated against. And so that's systemic. And so what are some examples, maybe, that I could understand where you felt like that you were being discriminated against?

[19:18] HERB ALBERT: So, from an early age of just growing up, whenever I would enter a store, I was always followed. Always followed. And it was because I was viewed as perhaps I was going to steal something or wanted to steal something or, you know, that. That kind of a scenario. I was always, not always, but in many instances, not waited on, if I was even next in line, skipped over for other persons who were not of persons of color. And so there I think I've experienced, even in the workplace, being passed over for. Hey, I think Karl got kicked out of the zoom. Let me pause it real quick. I don't want you to lose your spot, though, okay? I think what I was saying was how I felt in different instances of being discriminated against. I was told once that I was passed up for a promotion on a job because I wasn't the right color, and they didn't want someone who looked like me in that job. And I thought that was pretty bold for an employer or someone in a leadership position to even say that out loud. And so, you know, those types of things don't. Don't fare well, you know, when you're growing up and being shaped. And, you know, I think of the different laws and things that were put into place that actually emanated out of slavery and sometimes follow us into where we are today. And whether or not that's in the forefront of people's minds or if it's just kind of there, that it was always suggested that people of color were not equal, but people of color were to be used as property, to be used as slaves, to be used as servant. And so, you know, along with that, you know, and when I think about it, not just for the. What it looks like, I think about this world from a spiritual standpoint and understanding that we live in a fallen world, meaning that we live in a sin sick world. And so that's very much a part of how sin manifests itself in our lives. We. We become vindictive, we become hateful filled, and we take it out on one another, and we wind up destroying each other. And so as much as I try not to look at individuals and take it personal that they're attacking me, I also am able to look at it from a spiritual standpoint and understand that it's not the individual who's my enemy, but it's sin, the nature of sin, that gets into people. And I now, they act out in ways that produces racism or prejudice, discrimination, and things of that nature. And so even on the other side of it, now I have the option of how I choose to respond to that. I can lash out and become just like those people who treat me or mistreat me and do the same thing. Or I can try to show people what it looks like to be a caring individual, a respectful individual, leaving people's integrity intact and treating them with respect. That I believe. I believe you have to show people respect. I don't think it's always earned. I think if people don't show you respect that maybe they've never learned it, and maybe you have to show them what it looks like. Give everybody a chance. Somebody's got to sometimes be the one to give in first and not just hold people accountable, because sometimes we hold people accountable for what they're not capable of giving us or doing. So I'm always willing to fight for what's right and fight for what's going to make us better, instead of always arguing, well, you people this or you people that, let's, you know, bring those things to the table and say, okay, well, why do you believe what you believe, like we're doing now? And is there a way that, you know, what are some of the ways that we may agree that we, where we can work together or, you know, help to make our society a better place for everybody?

[24:48] KARL KIMBALL: Excellent. Excellent.

[24:51] HERB ALBERT: You know, one of the things that I've been very, very adamant about not doing is not dismissing people because of their political view or position. Now, like I said, I don't have a lot of republican friends, but I do have a lot of friends who align themselves with the Republican Party. But I've been adamant about not making them an enemy because they voted for Trump or because they believe in the Republican Party. I think that what I've learned from them before I knew that they were republican is more important than me finding out that they're republican or that they voted for Trump. The relationship that we established prior to this radical polarization that we see in our country, I think is more valuable and more important and speaks more of who that individual is than who they vote for, what they believe. You know, we get, I mean, it's very easy to get caught up in these discussions about pro life and abortion and Roe versus Wade. And I think we miss the mark sometimes because, you know, what I see sometimes is we picked, we'll pick an issue and make it so important that everything else pales in the light of it and the shadow of it. And we can become so adamant about abortion rights or pro life that we don't talk about anything else when there are so many other issues that are just as important. Good.

[26:40] KARL KIMBALL: You bring up abortion and pro life or pro choice. And to me, while somehow the parties have grabbed on to a position there, it is not a political issue from my perspective. To me, it's a Christian issue. And I don't understand how any Christian can support pro choice. Yeah, I just, I don't get it. If there's something there for me to understand, I'd appreciate it.

[27:24] HERB ALBERT: Because you know what I think sometimes, I think sometimes what, what, where it gets blurry or we muddle it up is because if I think about God gave us free choice, free will to choose. And so we have that opportunity. And with everything in life, we can choose evil, we can choose good, we can choose to be honest, we can choose to lie. We can choose. And I think people, sometimes people attach that to pro choice or pro life because I have the choice where you hear people say, well, my body, my choice. And God would say, well, I created your body and what I want from you is to honor what I created in a way that is going to honor me. And so I think that's part of it. And I think the other part of it is it has become, it has become a political issue. Some of us have allowed it to become more political than it being a christian issue.

[28:40] KARL KIMBALL: So just so I understand, and I'm clear, you're a Democrat. Do you believe in pro choice and you're a Christian?

[28:49] HERB ALBERT: I believe in pro life.

[28:52] KARL KIMBALL: Pro life.

[28:53] HERB ALBERT: Okay. So, and some of the challenge that we find ourselves in sometimes, or I find myself isn't because I'm a Democrat doesn't mean I believe everything that a party may advocate for or that I have to follow a certain, everything that that party may suggest or advocate for. I believe what God says about us and what God says about, about himself. And so that's not going to align itself with either the Republican or the Democrat party. Sometimes it's not a political, like you said, it's not a political issue. You know, it's an issue of whether or not you want to abide by the commandments that God has given us, whether or not you want to live a life that is holy and a life that is going to be exemplary. Exemplary in the eyesight of God. Are you going to live a life that values life in other human beings? Are you going to live a life that supports and helps and loves and cherishes life itself? And you can't wrap that up into a political party. It'll never work that way. And, you know, it's, I think that I just, I really, I really feel that unless we get back to some basic issues of where we're going and how we're going to manage that, we're going to find ourselves at such odds with one another that the issues will continue to be blurred and the fights will always, never end in anybody winning but everybody losing.

[30:53] KARL KIMBALL: Exactly.

[30:54] HERB ALBERT: I mean, I really see that as, as where we're heading because we lose sight of what's important. We lose sight of the main goals.

[31:04] KARL KIMBALL: Right.

[31:04] HERB ALBERT: You know.

[31:07] KARL KIMBALL: I think we're there now as far as nobody wins, everybody loses.

[31:12] HERB ALBERT: Exactly.

[31:14] KARL KIMBALL: And it's, it's kind of beyond me to understand how we're going to get past unless something becomes so bad that the whole system breaks down. I just don't know. I don't know if, if either party or if some independent can come up from nowhere and unite the country. I don't know how that's going to happen. I just can't envision it, in the two party system we have right now, they're so polarized and so willing, it seems, it seems so willing to do whatever the party says.

[32:05] HERB ALBERT: Right.

[32:06] KARL KIMBALL: In spite of what you believe.

[32:08] HERB ALBERT: Right. Right. And that's the danger, that we're willing to let it all go to hell in a handbasket because of my affiliation. And I think that's a real danger because if we look at, you know, just look at where we're stalemated now on issues, you know, we can't pass a budget. We can't, you know, the country's going to default again. I mean, how many, I worked for the government for years, and every so many years, you know, we're, the government's about to default because they can't sign a budget. They can't, you know, fund the budget, and it's all based on, well, and if you think, think back about how some of this came to be, it was, there was always this system in politics that said, well, I'll align with you if you give me this. Okay? So always the pork barrel spending. If you think about that whole, you know, it's a, it's a book the size of, you know, the yellow pages in New York. And so I've got to get a bill in there. If you want me to vote for you, you've got to allow this in order for this to happen. And, like, where is it? When did that ever make sense?

[33:33] KARL KIMBALL: Right?

[33:34] HERB ALBERT: Why can't we just do what's right, vote for what's right and agree with what's right? And, no, you don't always get your way, you know, and we've allowed that in our country and in our systems, in our political arenas for so long. It's become commonplace. And, and now it's no longer about decency. It's no longer about doing the right thing. It's no longer about respect or being an honorable person. As long as you're in my party, then you're, you're able to do whatever you want, and we're going to back you and I. And that's wrong. That's, to me, is, that's just wrong.

[34:19] KARL KIMBALL: I would agree.

[34:20] HERB ALBERT: Right is right and wrong is wrong. I don't care who you are. You know, if you're going to represent me in politics, then you have to be upright, upstanding, and you should be held accountable. I don't care what side of the aisle you're on or what party you're with or non party or whatever, you have a responsibility to uphold at a higher standard, a higher level than anyone else. And, you know, we just, we get away from that. And so, you know, it's no wonder that people are going to grab ahold of something that seems secure just for the sake of feeling like they're, they've lost control, right? So, so I think people are going to grab hold to a party affiliation for security because we're out of whack. We're, we're spiraling and spinning out of control. And, and I think just to be able to, to make some sense of it, people grab ahold of something and they hold on for dear life. But all of us are headed same.

[35:35] KARL KIMBALL: Spiral in a large part. I think that's the attraction that people have to Trump. Right? I mean, I think most Trump supporters would say they do not like Trump the man. He does things that are detestable to most of us.

[36:00] HERB ALBERT: Right.

[36:02] KARL KIMBALL: Having said that, he does what he says. He goes in there and disrupts the status quo in Washington.

[36:12] HERB ALBERT: You know, yes, he does.

[36:13] KARL KIMBALL: I think he doesn't accept that pork barrel or earmarking or whatever. You know, he's like, no, this is how it's going to be. And, you know, I think that's, that individual is what America is looking for. Trump may not be the right guy because he could be such a, you know what? But we've got to, somehow, somebody's got to come out of the woodwork that's going to be that person that can draw everybody underneath them to support and, and he or she can make a difference in Washington and, and kind of get rid of some of this stuff that just makes no sense anymore.

[37:06] HERB ALBERT: You know, I wonder if it's going to even be possible, because I wonder, you know, you, when I look at, you look at our elections and you look at our elected officials and you look at the terms that they, they are elected for. Anyone who's elected into office is elected for a term, and they're coming into an established hierarchy, an established system. And so no matter what they campaign on, they are only going to be able to do what that party or what that government at the time allows them to do. They really don't have that individual power to mandate or do all of these things that they may have even campaigned on. They just, they don't have the power to do it. And so, you know, anybody in office is going to spin wheels for four years. And if by chance they get elected again, they may make some headway in doing something, but they still inherit the, everything from the previous four or eight years. And usually what we see now is that the first four years are untried to undo everything that if it was, undo everything that they did. So where's the progress? We're not making any progress. We're just spending time.

[38:32] KARL KIMBALL: I think what you're, what you're describing is a little bit of why I lean towards the republican party, because I believe the republican party does believe in smaller government. Right. And that the bigger the machine gets, the harder it is to change it. And the bigger it gets, the more it wants to control. And I struggle with elections in general because I'm not sure, but I'm almost of the opinion that preventing somebody from voting is not as bad as having somebody that's illiterate on the issues vote. You know, there's having people vote without, without them knowing what they're voting for or why they're voting for. It seems ridiculous to me, and I almost, I'm not a historian, and I don't understand all of the reasons why we're set up the way we are, but my belief is a little bit that the electoral college was put in place because the founders believed that the population itself couldn't decide, that it took somebody to have a guiding heart or whatever for that area which they represented. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. But I, you know, I, I find it extremely difficult to find information about issues online. And it's almost as if the politicians don't want you to know what the issues are because they'd rather not have you vote intelligently, they'd rather have you vote emotionally or along party lines. And until we can fix our election system, I don't, I don't even know if you can. I, because I, I stop myself every once in a while. I think, you know, is, it is a democratic society of value, right. You know, can't. Can or not a value, but, you know, can 100 people vote to manage something where everybody's happy and the answer is no, because half the people, at least, are not going to be happy with the outcome and you don't want it to where 90% of the people are telling the other 10% how to live, or do you, do you want 90% of the people telling the other 10% how to live? I mean, that's kind of this. I just don't know how. I'm just totally perplexed on the whole concept because I'm happy as long as my position is the supported position, the winning position, and when it's not, I'm not very happy, you know, so, yeah.

[42:02] HERB ALBERT: I don't know that, I guess we could go back and forth and, and still not have any reasonable assurance that we have an answer or a solution, because I think we've gotten so far off track that, you know, after a major derailment, you just can't get the cars back on the track. You got to start over. And I wonder if that's the state that we're in now. And I wonder what that means or what that's going to look like. What does it mean? Does it mean a total demise for our country and our government? Is it going to totally collapse and what will a rebranding and a restart look like? You know, who takes the helm to get that? Yeah. You know, and, and who's gonna follow, you know, because you, as you mentioned, it's going to take maybe that one person, that one individual who is not maybe aligned with either or, but that independent and independence don't fare well, you know, because the Democrats don't want, they don't want to hear and neither do the Republicans. So get out. You know, we're not, none of us are going to support you. We, we just want to fight with each other. We want to continue fighting with each other. We want what we want, and we want it now. And we were okay with staying in that fight, staying in that battle, going in that circle and not really getting anywhere. We're okay with spinning our wheels at the sake of our country, our country's well being and, and everything else. And I think that's poor, but that's where we are.

[43:53] KARL KIMBALL: Yeah, I would agree. I would agree.

[43:56] HERB ALBERT: And so my position is that having these kinds of conversations allow me to know that people can be having a party affiliation and still be good human beings, good, basic human beings who want the same things that I want. They just want to go about it differently. And is that, that's not such a bad thing, you know, when you really look at it and drill down? Because, you know, I believe that we agree on more than we do disagree on.

[44:35] KARL KIMBALL: I think you're right that if we could agree on the objective, right. That we all want the same thing to an extent, how we get there can be tolerated. Right. Whether we go right or whether we go left. Now, there are guard posts or guardrails on that, because you can go too far either way where you would not be happy with, you know, the ends do not justify the means. Right. I mean, as long as you're following human decency, and I think everybody could be happy as long as you were getting that same outcome right where everybody is, it's a level playing field and everybody's got the opportunity for prosperity and things are good for most people and you're taking care of those that it's not good for. You know, if we could, if we could ever get the politicians to talk in those terms, those high level terms, and say, and this is how we're going to get there, then even if it wasn't your exact path, you might be able to vote for that, right?

[46:08] HERB ALBERT: Maybe we need a God movement.

[46:12] KARL KIMBALL: I think so.

[46:13] HERB ALBERT: I think that's in my mind that that's what's going to become the catalyst for change. Because if we stick to what's right according to God, then we're on the right track. Now, there's a struggle in getting there. There's always a struggle in life. And, you know, as I mentioned before, we're living in a fallen world. So we got, we have a lot of opposition against us. But if we focus on doing right, doing good, being honest, honoring God with everything that we do, then we're going to have to put some of those differences aside because now it's not about me as an individual. It's about what does God want and what's going to be best for everyone, you know? And I think, you know, while that might not be a popular belief or certainly maybe not an acceptable in most people's eyesight way of looking at it, but look at where politics has gotten us and do we want to keep going down that road? You know, if we don't look at something as an option, then the handwriting is already on the wall. You know, we stand to lose a lot more than we do gain, that we, then we stand to gain. And so I say do your part. I'm going to do my part. Continue to have these conversations when we can, wherever we can, with those who are willing to talk, willing to listen and want to understand. I don't want to argue. I don't want to debate. I don't want to make you out to be wrong, and I don't want making me out to be wrong. I want to listen. I want to learn. I want to understand. And I want to say, well, how can I help you and share with you how you can help me? Because that's, that's what's going to work. And the more we can do this individually and be intentional about doing it, I think, I mean, we may never see the results of it, but maybe our grandchildren will. Maybe what we instill in them by our behaviors will be that maybe they'll be the ones that'll rise up to say, hey, there's another way. There's a better way, because you guys didn't get it. Right. But, but I learned something from you guys, so let's try this.

[48:44] KARL KIMBALL: Right? So, very good.

[48:49] HERB ALBERT: But I enjoyed our conversation. I think we're almost about out of time, but enjoyed our opportunity to share with you and you with me. And I think that, I mean, I appreciate your willingness to come on. And I think it's hard sometimes for people to know that they're going to enter into a conversation with somebody who thinks differently than theme and they come in with a preconceived notion about, oh, God, this is going to be a fight and this is going to be this and, and that. This was not like that at all. And so thank you for, I wish.

[49:24] KARL KIMBALL: You were my next door neighbor, Herb.

[49:26] HERB ALBERT: Well, yeah, we can still be neighbors. You know, we just, we're far apart. But just knowing every conversation I have like this gives me hope that everybody is not as polarized as the world makes it seem and that we still do have hope. So.

[49:47] KARL KIMBALL: Yep.

[49:48] HERB ALBERT: Yeah. So, but, yeah, keep up the good work. Keep listening, keep advocating, and keep sharing because I think that's, that's what's going to make for the difference. And I think the more we remain silent and just give in to, you know, they don't understand or they'll never understand. I think that's a pessimistic view, and it's not one of forward thinking or one that looks to promote change. I think in order to promote it, we've got to be willing to have the difficult conversations. We've got to be willing to put it out there. And I, maybe it stirs something up and gives people the opportunity to glean Glenn gleam into what they don't know or what they don't understand. You know, I think that's how we come to appreciate each other more when we understand more of what they're going through or what they believe. So.

[50:56] KARL KIMBALL: I agree.

[50:58] HERB ALBERT: All right, guys, I'm going to end the recording, okay?