JoAnn Graham and Ginnae Harley

00:02 I'm Joanne Kelly Graham. I'm 70 years old and I live in McKinney, Texas. I am here today with Janae who is a 50 year old African American woman who has lived throughout the United States she grew up in a racially culturally religiously diverse small town Richland Washington and an all white suburb of Pittsburgh. She attended public and private schools. All girls was raised Episcopalian, but it but is now a spiritualist believing in a higher power but doesn't subscribe to a specific religion. She's liberal politically moderate economically. She believes most problems exist because of fear or pain and in each of us is a little up all of us.

00:56 My name is Janae Harley. I'm 50 years old and I currently reside in Nashville, Tennessee and I'm here with Joann Graham and she is never tired executive and housewife mother and active in her church and Community. She's also formerly a city council person active in Outreach to those less fortunate. She's realistic recipient of discrimination in several forms.

01:28 But for equal rights of others throughout her career and a believer in hard work is rewarded.

01:44 I can't hear you Laura. We can't hear you. Yeah, sorry.

02:09 I was born in Seattle and lived there until I was about 5 my family then moved to Riverside California for about a year then we moved to Germany for two years. And when I was in the second grade, we moved to Albuquerque New Mexico, which is where I was raised. I lived in Albuquerque went to the University of New Mexico and I

02:42 Got married when I was 20, and it was very difficult marriage with a lot of physical abuse and I got divorced after about 5 years and was single for quite some time. I got married again and became pregnant with my son who is now 30.

03:04 Almost 39 years old and unfortunately his father and I divorced while I was pregnant. We were married less than a year. And we divorced I said, okay, I've had enough of that fun and I was thin single for 17 years. I raised my son. I was already divorced by the time he was born and I raised my son as a completely single parent.

03:34 I had started a career in human resources and worked in that throughout my career when my son was about a year-and-a-half old I moved from Albuquerque to Kenny, which is a suburb north of Dallas at the time. I moved here is about 12000 people and was a wonderful small town to raise a child in if he knew everybody and he kept saying we'll why is it that you know about everything I do and I said well because it's a little town and you've got what he said the grandparents.

04:10 So eventually I change jobs several times and

04:21 Always in Human Resources eventually becoming the vice president of some very large corporations in 1998. I received a phone call from a man that I had known.

04:38 Professionally at a distance really because he was in, Michigan.

04:45 And he had moved to Dallas and I'd always thought all he's kind of cute. And so I he said well, I thought I'd take you up on that cup of coffee you offered to buy me like eight years ago, which was the last time we talked and we went out and six weeks later. We were engaged and we got married and we're still very happily married my son and his wife lives about three miles away from us and we are retired in 2003 went back to school in to get grad to do graduate work in cultural anthropology, which I say is a little bit related to HR because it's all about people stories and my mother is 96. She lives in assisted living near by here, and I'm responsible for her. I'm the oldest

05:45 Dove six siblings, one of whom Janae has lived in Richland, Washington for the last 45 years.

05:54 And she still lives there and my father is from Pittsburgh that he's passed away. But my father was born and raised in Pittsburgh and I have a lot of relatives there, but I don't have anybody I do have a friend in Nashville as a Catholic and a very strict Catholic Family. I have a sister who's a cloistered nun, but I left the Catholic church when I was about 25 and was an Episcopalian for a while. And then now I'm a Methodist and I'm active in my church. I've always been involved in politics, but not so much in a partisan way. Although I do have strong political beliefs most of the politics. I've been involved in or nonpartisan City politics or you don't have a car.

06:54 And

06:58 I don't know. What else do you want to know about me now? I take care of my mother and my husband is 73 and he still works because he says he loves his job. And why should he quit when they pay him a lot of money to do it. So

07:13 That's that's what happens.

07:40 Okay, obviously, I'm Janae I was born in Pittsburgh and I grew up in a small town called Richland Washington to my dad at the time work for Westinghouse. So he was going to sign it out there with my mom as we like to say splainin to do either to Grant's daughter across the country. That's a whole nother story. Anyway, it was really it was a small-town Westinghouse was opening up a new nuclear plant called to have 4 plant Sims clothes, but because they were pulling people from all over or we had Asians Indians Native Americans in all different religions culture. So

08:40 That was a very interesting and very powerful and Pactiv experience because I didn't really understand a lot of discrimination or minority and all that cuz you're all has thrown in there all together. And then when I was 10, I know my parents are both from Pittsburgh, so they thought it was a good thing my sister and then I have a little bit of a Serendipity experiences. So I've lived in different states went to Arizona with my sister was nice and warm and hot and reminded us of Richland some respect. We lived out there and then I went to St. Louis, St. Louis.

09:40 I am Gia. I hadn't lived in the midwest or am I smile program seems good, and I've never lived in afterwards. I lived in Atlanta for a hot minute literally and I don't mean that by the hotlanta man and marketing and then Tennessee. The draw was I started there for a program that was called the broad residency. So I had been with yum brands was not happy with that company and experience in marketing wasn't it? I just felt like I was brought on this Earth to do more than sell tacos and burritos and so kind of had a work.

10:40 Career coach and we switched into education which it always has been woven into my life. My mom was a teacher and done tutoring in, Arizona.

11:04 So when I looked at the position Knoxville same good cuz I was like, hey haven't lived in the South. I love University of Tennessee was there and she was my favorite my favorite name and it was close to my parents. So I've been in Nashville for about eight years and then I took a position with the state of Tennessee Department about 2 years ago Nashville ever since so I've been all over so

11:41 Yeah, I've had a lot of different experience with this some good some bad and you know a lot of learning along the way and that's pretty much my story.

11:51 Unless you have questions.

12:24 I think the first time that I heard about this was I don't know maybe three years ago when they were first started in the initiative and I applied for it. And I think at that time they were taking little buses around the country and interviewing people and I kept hoping it would come near me but it didn't and then when you started

12:53 When I got invited to do the online one, I was thrilled to do it. It's just something I've really wanted to do to gain an understanding of a different a different person a different culture a different way of life other than my own and

13:11 I've always been interested in you knowing about other things. I did get to do a storycorps recording with my mother last November when it came to Dallas and we went down there and we recorded our little deal which is now in the Library of Congress and she was born and raised in England and live there all during the war. And so she talked about all her Recollections of the bombing in the rationing and D-Day and everything like that. So I just always been interested in storycorps and what it does and

13:48 So I thought it would be cool to do.

13:53 I heard about it on a storycorps podcast or listen to the podcast and that's a very and they said no we have this one step initiative and argue with somebody who is very different from you which I was like, oh my God, I need to and so I'm just going to kind of put it out there where in 2020 I got to go pay the day the very beginning. But anyway, the election of trump really threw it was just such a shock and I really needed help and understanding for somebody that voted for him while I try and help me understand because I thought

14:34 He's just represent a lot of things that I completely disagree with and it was really for me the first time in terms of Apple ID and politics that I really could not see the other stuff. Right? Like I've had friends who were conservatives or whatever and I'm kind of disrespect and just Nina's for lack of a better word and do in that happen. I was just like I need I need to hear, you know, I need to understand I had one guy kind of conversation because I knew him and so it was a way to talk without blowing up and feeling threatened and things like that. So when I heard this

15:34 Environment to have a conversation because really for me I'm just coming from help me understand common and write what you do to one person does eventually come back and harm you and so I

15:59 The answer is everything but I can get a sliver. I would really appreciate it.

16:29 I think I can I think for me I studied my questions. I thought it was for me it started.

16:44 My father was a born-and-bred Democrat and he had he had always voted Democrat his brother were Democrats till the day they all died but my father became more conservative and I think probably around the time of Ronald Reagan. I remember when President Kennedy visited Albuquerque and we went down to the street and all waved at him as he went by and I was very active in the Democratic party. I was the president of the teenage Democrat president of the New Mexico chapter not only in Albuquerque and very active in politics supporting Democrats there.

17:39 And then as time went on I think it was probably economic policies more than anything that caused me to want to become more conservative. I did not vote for Trump and I did not vote for Clinton. I could not bring myself to vote for either one. I don't trust Clinton Hillary Clinton, although I thought her husband was a wonderful president and really liked a lot of the stuff you did. I don't trust her and I believe she's very dishonest. I didn't want to vote for Trump because I felt like all the things that we've seen come true what happened? He didn't know what he was doing and didn't have the experience that was needed.

18:33 So I didn't go for anybody. I voting straight Republican and unclick the president and I went to bed assuming that healer like most of America assuming Hillary would win and was shocked as anything when I got up in the morning and my husband said Trump won and I was like, oh my God, what are we in for so

19:01 I'm kind of in the same conundrum now in saying who you going to vote for I don't I think Vikings verging on all timers, but I can't really support.

19:16 A lot of the stuff that Trump is doing because I think he's kind of out of control. It's interesting to hear Janis talk about something. My son was very involved and it's still in a non-partisan way is involved in politics his degrees in political science. And as soon as he graduated from college, he packed up his car and went to Washington DC and proceeded to work there for 10 years. He worked as an assistant. Well, he worked one full summer for the Speaker of the House Tom DeLay and then he worked for our senator from Texas. Then he worked for the governor of Texas in Washington and then he worked for President Bush. So second bush.

20:13 He came back.

20:15 Because really

20:18 I don't think he has the heart for the nastiness the undercover stuff that goes on there and I don't think he could ever be mean enough.

20:32 To be as deeply involved as you need to be to achieve. He always wanted to be president for the time you three years old, but he's given that up because he's seen what it takes and it wasn't pretty

20:56 Thank you for sharing. I appreciate that. There's a lot to think if I remember really anything later on. I remember about economics. Now I know on celebration standpoint is not where it needed to be.

21:43 Now I ask other questions cuz I'm curious now with Joanne with her city council and just maybe more so with this state politics and some of the values or when she's at the politicians. What are you working for? What is it?

22:13 You locked my camera. I'm here. I can see my camera.

22:19 No, she it went out. So I don't know if she has her eye can see my camera.

22:33 I clicked on that little camera up there and now I'm back.

22:41 I can see her now. I can't I can't.

22:47 No, I can't see me I can see both of you, but not me.

22:57 Yeah.

23:03 So it was just curiosity. What would be your ideal first of all to ask your little Quest your side question about City Council in general. I have always been involved in local politics because of issues specific issues of interest to me specific issues that I feel I can actually make a difference in

23:54 In out stopping a freeway going through the middle of my little town or getting the council to pay attention to budgetary items and follow a budget and spend money in a in a sensible manner in terms of my ideal candidate.

24:18 I'd like somebody who is highly intelligent who has experience in foreign policy as well as domestic policy somebody who is highly honest, which is hard to find and I think

24:44 Maybe somebody who?

24:47 Reflects what I consider to be

24:55 Good values of hard work and

25:02 Financial responsibility

25:06 I had the opportunity a couple of times to meet president the second President Bush and even though we didn't speak for a long time. The thing that immediately impacted me when I met him was an aura of intelligence and kindness.

25:32 I just that's just how I felt about him and

25:39 I think one of the problems we're seeing with Trump nowadays is he doesn't have a lot of caring about other people and how other people feel and he doesn't think very deeply and that's caused a lot of

25:54 Repercussions in especially in foreign policy issues

26:01 His lack of experience really shows on the one hand. I kind of say well Gigi and somebody should have shook up the mess with China. We've been fighting that mess for years and nobody's willing to confront it. So there's some things that I'm kind of going all I'm glad we confronted it, but maybe they would be a better way to do it and I feel that way about a lot of other things that he's confronted and kind of stirred stuff up but then

26:31 Not settled it back down into

26:35 A good situation

26:39 Economically right now. I really really worried about our country in terms of all the money that we're giving away and how in the world we are going to pay that back both for the stimulus is due to covid-19.

27:24 Where am I going to get the money to do it? And I wish our country was economically more realistic.

27:32 About where are we going to get the money to pay for these things?

27:37 Thank you. Thank you for that.

27:47 No, thank you.

28:57 That's a hard one that is transformational moments that I would say that they acted my beliefs Morse.

29:12 In my choices more so than I would say with politics or maybe it's more about Ray right? I thought I've had because I'm black. I've had some because I am a woman and so since I've always been more on the Democratic liberal side. I don't think that's changed anything what I will say some of the cases iPad the way I was raised as I had a person who would ask a question. What is something that you knew where you were sure was true that turned out to be not true.

29:53 And so for me growing up, I assumed racism.

30:01 Was directly related to intelligence if you told me when I was in high school, I would go to an ivy league in sacks this I would have told you no know it's dumb people because you don't know any better.

30:35 Was when I was in a high school and it was in 9th grade and I ran into mr. Kennedy who was racist situation where I forgot my book and you know, that that's on you couldn't go back and get the bus until I was with my friend Beth and I was just looking over her shoulder what we're supposed to do and he came up to me and he just raided me the details I end up going to the principal's office and he was just like whatever. I don't know why you're here, you know should have done when he didn't do nothing about because they knew I was a good student council. I was a freshman on the varsity team.

31:35 That I had an opportunity to go to a private school. My sister was in the private school. And I said no and in that moment, I was like I'm out of here and really what push me over was.

31:59 They were mean to my mom.

32:02 They were just mean.

32:05 And I knew I was like I cannot be able to school. I cannot write like if you want to you're going to have to call and ask he's like, we're not going to do anything cuz this is your choice of a mistress.

32:35 Xenu

32:40 I'm surprised how much just from application and so she asked what happened and I told her I said, you know, he was berated me and he was basically tell me I was a bad Student Activities.

32:58 And that told me like he actually tried to know me and care about me. And so it's still upsetting to me.

33:07 The best things in my life because it totally put me on a different trajectory. So without Ellis, I don't think I would be where I am today. They gave me a lot of opportunities. It was an all-girls school, so I didn't have to deal with

33:25 In a white male to her like always in charge and we don't want girls girls. You just sit over there and be quiet and look cute. It was a learning for me. I've just what discrimination was and in particular, That's okay. Sometimes I wish I could do that more readily.

33:58 I would my parents were both.

34:03 Adamantly against discrimination as we were growing up. My father had as a Catholic in Pittsburgh. He had suffered a lot of discrimination in the twenties and thirties when he grew up there and my mother was a Catholic in England where Catholics and Church of England are two entirely different thing and so both of them were

34:34 Absolutely against any type of discrimination. I grew up in Albuquerque where actually white people were the minority Hispanics were in and you know, our Senator was Joe Montoya and our city councilman was Pete Community and I mean, we had all these, you know Hispanic people who were running the place and it never even occurred to me. I mean, I went to a Catholic school and all my friends were Sandoval's and griego's and Sanchez and all these other things and it never even occurred to me to worry about discrimination.

35:12 I remember when I was I don't know 10 or 11 years old one night at dinner. My dad was kidding my brother because he ate all of his peas and then he ate all of his meatloaf and then he ate all of his mashed potatoes and my dad said what are you doing? You're eating WAP style and my mother said we don't talk like that.

35:37 And I didn't understand what had happened. First of all my mother never spoke back to my father ever and I didn't know what what style was what was wrong about what my dad said and later on I learned but

35:55 Then as I as I got older my first supervisor in my first real job was an African American woman working for the telephone company. I went on to human resources and my job because I worked for government contractors was writing and enacting affirmative action programs and I won prizes for all the stuff that I had done in recognition. And so

36:28 Too and that continued when I got the Texas I didn't run into a lot of problems here then.

36:40 Probably one of the most painful things for me.

36:46 After we got married after my current husband and I got married we moved to a town on the southside of Dallas, which has nothing to do with locations just about 75 miles away and it was a nice suburban community. Every house was a different house and had grown up over time and

37:10 Then after Katrina came

37:13 All the people from New Orleans moved up to the south side of Dallas and all of a sudden.

37:22 Be there had always been a lot of African-Americans on that side of town, but they were now.

37:31 All in our neighborhood

37:35 That part didn't bother me the part that bothered me is how I was treated it was assumed.

37:45 That I was the enemy I can remember going to Target and we were talking about Target a little while ago. I can remember going to Target and people in Texas are real friendly. You say hi you talk to your checkout person and all that kind of stuff and I was waiting in line and this happened over and over I'd be waiting in line in front of me. There'd be a black woman who is a checker and a black customer and they be talkin and they didn't necessarily know each other but they were talking about the weather or what they bought or what was on sale and then it was my turn and I'd say hi. How are you and the people the checkered literally would not speak to me would take my stuff and sling it down to the end so that I could bag at myself and I

38:41 Over and over again. I got that kind of treatment from people just in my day today interaction where they were assuming things about me when they didn't know anything about me.

38:58 And that really hurt and

39:05 Now a couple years later, I see that made in all the talk about racism. It's in the news now. I see that really

39:17 To certain extent that's what you been putting up with all your life and hopefully not that much but

39:28 It it really hurts. I mean it it really really hurts when people do that. I mean, I was a mentor from for people from The Job Corps I was

39:43 And then

39:45 To have that turned around on me and be taken advantage of by somebody that I had spent years working with.

39:56 I guess I don't know I just feel.

40:01 I feel really really bad and Hope.

40:07 Sincerely. Hope that I haven't.

40:13 Done to somebody else

40:16 What's been done to me? I mean I put up with a lot of sex is just sex discrimination to I mean all almost all of the companies where I was in upper management. I was the first woman in upper management. So I put up with that. I mean try being the first woman in upper management in a hundred-year-old family-owned Lumber Company, you know about nacho field, you know, you get a lot of that that there but that somehow didn't bother me as much as it hurt me when the target lady wasn't nice.

40:55 Interesting

40:58 Why do you say that?

41:03 Maybe because I had had sex discrimination throughout my career.

41:10 It always been an issue. I just kind of took it for granted. I have always been adamant.

41:20 About the fact that work isn't a sexual thing when I am working. I'm not a man. I'm not a woman. I'm a worker. I'm the person who's doing that job probably hard to believe now, but when I was younger, I was skinny and very attractive and could have taken advantage of that and I would be lying if I said, I don't think that it's sometimes that may have helped me but never purposely never because I tried to make it help me.

42:02 But I don't know it.

42:06 Sex discrimination was just so taken for granted. I remember one time we were at a special meeting of the executives and the people from corporate. We're coming into town that night and we were going to have an off-site dinner. And so we're meeting talking about what we're going to do and

42:29 Everybody symbol, let's take a ten-minute break go to the bathroom and so on came back finished up our meeting and as we're leaving they said they all said, oh well, we'll see you at the Petroleum Club. I sent the Petroleum Club now. I thought we were going to Arthur's.

42:46 We changed it. Don't you never grow in the bathroom talking about it? And I said I wasn't in the same bathroom guys.

42:56 That kind of stuff just happened all the time and it is so

43:02 I'm not one that's going to get up in arms about something that didn't amount to something.

43:11 I don't know why that kind of stuff.

43:15 It just didn't bother me. It was kind of a joke.

43:20 But

43:24 Anyway

43:26 I just hope I didn't.

43:51 No, thank you for sharing sharing that I was wondering just based on what you were saying if if it's sexism is more.

44:02 Subtle baby is the word. I'm looking for as opposed to the racism or if it's more about in a joking kind of way. We're as you know my experience in your experience with the grocery cart, like that's just outright rude disrespectful unkind as opposed to work with sometimes I think is a little bit more subtle and Doki Doki and you know all that but as we're realizing it's just you know as problematic.

44:34 I don't I don't know. I don't know.

44:40 I guess my number one question is I'd like to be able to talk to you more after this is done with your parents going up in Pittsburgh on my brother-in-law just tired from that Westinghouse Hanford plant knows he'll probably his last name is zimmerschied z i m m e r s c h i e d. Yeah, I guess what I did is going to want to know your parents and to see if she remembers names and family like you wouldn't believe it's crazy like strange people of his right arm like your person and I like and then I'll call my mom and she's like all your uncle.

45:34 Very cool. So I'm cool with that. I'm trying to think if there's any other cuz you got a lot of awards and accolades for that. Do you feel it made a difference because what I had to do for example if I'm hiring engineers

46:00 My belief about affirmative action has always been that human resources job is to find a qualified candidate who also happens to be the needed minority.

46:18 And when your heart and a lot of the people I Hardware Engineers, but I don't believe

46:27 That in order to make affirmative action successful in an organization in order to get minorities accepted into an organization where there haven't been any any before you need to make sure that the person is qualified to do the job and that The Stereotype of will they just hired him because he's black or they just hired him because he's Chinese or whatever that stereotype cannot be allowed to exist and it's my job which sometimes was a hard job to make sure that we did both that we hired the qualified person that the company need it, but they I had also go find the qualified person that the company needed who was going to meet me for me back harder and thank you for I have to say thank you for that because it was always very frustrating. You know, when I was younger obviously with the action and you

47:26 You got hired because you were just know especially I'm like I had to be twice as good or way better than you just to be on the Level Playing Field because they make those assumptions so and it doesn't do anybody any favors when you put in a person in this is regardless of race religion Creed color, whatever when you put it in a person that's not qualified you get a real mess, right? So even when you know, they had the what we called the old I'm sure you heard this old boys network and you know, they have the girls and boys and all that. Okay, you went to the right Church, you know the right guy you look the part but I'm like your is your dip with and you're our business is a hot mess right now. It's not working. Then you try to get the other people you like. Okay, we got to fix this and work our way around it. So I feel

48:24 My perception of what's going on right now? I'm kind of Shifting Gears if that's okay. It's just where the berry transfer transformational time is the transition periods where I think we're getting to something better. And so those in the old ways are cleaning too and it's just not ugly and then there are some who are like there's a better way you are the values. I'm looking for so less about what religion would race what gender you are and more about what values are you bringing to the table? And again, like you said earlier with honesty like hallelujah, praise the Lord and please be honest, and we need to start putting in politics both sides of this was all Republicans Or democrats.

49:48 I'm just glad that the email you sent us has both of our email addresses in it because I'll be riding one.

50:00 But I'm glad you did.

50:04 Recently I didn't even notice.

50:15 And I want thanks Joanne for being honest and in this opportunity to talk, so I still believe that we have far more in common than not and so let's figure out what we have in common and start building and making a better world. I don't know. I don't know if you mention if your son has kids or anything. That's another whole story, but I was just going to say for the Next Generation like, you know from 2 to 8:10 and I worry about that generation what we're leaving leaving them. So I'm all about okay y'all we need to get together.

51:02 Yeah, thank you for leading the charge because being a woman in the 60s and 70s 70s and 80s not easy. So I'm sure you were just like at the way it was and I just got through and there's some things that I can sell younger people in their life. Like it's just got through it you just have to do it. But I thank you for putting up with the whole lot of stuff cuz I'm sure you did you just have to do it. I was a single parent and my first priority I always said if I have to I'll go be a cocktail waitress because I'm going to support my son.