John Rouff and Barbara Rouff

00:03 My name is Barbara lootens roof.

00:07 I am 73 years old today is Saturday November 30th 2019 and we are in Yuma Arizona kind of a Blustery Day for Yuma a little chilly outside.

00:25 My interview partner today is John rouff.

00:31 My son and number 6 child.

00:37 My name is John rouff. I am 3037 today is November 30th 2019 in Yuma, Arizona.

00:46 Name of my partner is Barbara rouff who is my mother?

00:53 I have heard a lot of the interviews and I didn't want to script anything ahead of time. I kind of had an idea where I'd like things some of the things I'd like to talk about it, but I didn't want to kind of get into a situation where you felt like I was putting you under attack initially. You said you were a little reluctant to do the interview and I didn't know if that was because you were too low going to be interviewed by me or just in general you are reluctant to talk but I think with our family 11 kids there is a

01:27 Now there are technically 9 middle children. Unfortunately, I'm right in the middle and I think I tend to be the most middle child of the middle children. I think a lot of a lot of our family as we

01:47 We do a really good job of interacting all the kids. Everybody does a really good job of

01:52 I'm staying connected for the most part in when we're together every it's like no one.

01:58 There's no animosity. No one has any hard feelings or anything. I know under the surface I can hear when anybody is with anybody else. You can hear the little gripes about individual people doing whatever it is and

02:13 So obviously everybody has their feelings. Everybody has their their little pet peeves or and I think originally left you mine was a 20

02:28 2002 is when I moved to Tucson, so 17 years ago.

02:34 I felt like being in Yuma you're in the middle of all of it. You're you hear all of it and you're part of all those conversations and it's really easy to get drawn into stuff. And since I've been in Tucson, I have been really a part of it and I think once everybody gets into their lives, it's the significant others. I think that start to kind of

02:56 Cause people or at least in my case. I felt like it caused me to disconnect from people because yeah.

03:04 And so I kind of my way of handling all of that was kind of way drawing until I haven't really I don't reach out to anybody. I don't really talk to anybody. I don't make myself inaccessible but I don't make myself. I don't reach out anybody to make myself accessible and I think through my twenties and early thirties. I think I was pretty angry person and I think that that that was partly wine, but overall I am so angry. Did you feel like you were

03:39 Like

03:41 I think it was partly that collected or miss something. I think all of the kids at some point or another everybody feels that there's no way with 11 kids that anybody can get any amount of

03:55 I'm not trying to make you feel bad and just finished the reality. There's there's no way any kid can get any real one on one time.

04:03 Not to say that we didn't have a good child that I'm not saying that but I think everybody feels on some level that they needed they would have wanted more and I think that's where Michael and I connected I think everybody kind of find their sibling that matches up with them pretty well and and that's their that's a person if they connect with stuff for the most part though. I don't know that it was necessarily the childhood stuff. I think I regret a lot of what I was if I'm out of the way I was as a kid.

04:32 But I think a lot of it is just kind of looking at where I was I feel like there was so much ground to make up that it wasn't possible until I think I disconnected and that's where I thought that I sort of gave up. I thought that I had damaged relationships or I don't know or just people had impressions of me or just in general. I think it would have been easier if I just had conversations with people and figured out where where I actually stood with them, but I assumed a lot and so yeah, I just was I think I was an angry person and as a result, I now the last couple years I've seen that

05:11 Don't want to live my life that way kind of want to.

05:15 Be connected to the people and I think some of the some of the other kids to have noticed that you're different that you do seem to be reaching out more that you're more connected. You want to be more involved and they've noticed I think it started like when you bought those postcards and you sent you send everybody a pack of postcards encouraging us to keep in touch, you know, where drop a line to Daddy once in awhile just as a way of letting him know that you're thinking about him and I think part of that was guilty cuz you're there there were times I think in with all of you kids growing up where

05:59 Your father made you angry and I think recently since we had her we had our yard sale and opened up the walls that had been covered with books for years and years and years having the books removed has revealed how many holes got punched in that some of you tried not very successfully to patch and so we have a bunch of walls with very bad patches in them.

06:35 I think the wall patches in a pretty good metaphor of everybody's or child. It is at we we didn't necessarily have the the tools that were needed to.

06:46 To fix tub. I mean I tied stuff. Yeah. I punched a lot of holes in the wall the wall outside. My bedroom had I think three or four holes and then in my bedroom, but I think all I did was just stuff newspaper into him filled it with something and then plastered over the top of it. So, I don't know the way ever fixed anything. I think that are at least for me. That's that's how I felt. I don't think that I ever fix anything. I think I buried stuff and yes definitely sense for the last four years. I mean since since getting divorced it's been for me that was realizing that

07:18 High eyes with a lot of time burying stuff in a lot of ways and not addressing stuff and I think that's where we're Jennifer and I acknowledge that and it's or at least I acknowledged it that I I think my way of dealing with stuff was not healthy and so

07:35 But in the final analysis, what you are now is a result of all the events and things that have happened to you in your life that have shaped you into the person you are today. So we learn by making mistakes and moving forward, you know, I'm trying to

07:54 Fix whatever got broken and

08:00 Look forward and not so much back except to reflect on.

08:06 The reality of what where we've been in the mistakes that we've made and how it's made us the person that we are today. So you do a final analysis. I really really proud of all my kids.

08:23 I think of being a mother as my proudest accomplishment.

08:31 And as difficult as it was at many times. I know I can remember times when I just locked myself in the bathroom because I just couldn't deal with whatever it was. It was going on out there and that they can sort it out. They'll sort it out. They'll figure it out. But I think one thing as many kids as we had that was always somebody, you know, who is it would kind of step in and

09:02 Try to smooth ruffled feathers and there was always somebody that you could go to to complain or to cry or you know, play a game with or yeah, you want to go outside and climb the tree. Let's go climb up on the roof and we can just hang out and nobody will know where we are.

09:21 Definitely for the for the boys the girls. I think they're pretty pretty battle-hardened because the boys always have somebody to test something on her to beat up on Michael and I Michael Manley creating games for the girls to check the girls have their whole list of stories of a little less a little less angry and probably less mean-spirited with Genesis games. He was Michael has always been more fun. And I think that I probably was a little more for whatever reason I was I was a bully and United. I think it's probably because of

10:03 Having older brothers that they do it to you, but it's funny that Michael had the same Brothers plus another one that was possibly worse than them and Michael didn't go that route. So that it's it's funny how I seeing all of the interactions and seeing how everybody grew up with the exact same childhood, but all of the different ways that everybody's coming out. So that's for sure and I think a lot of times when when you grow up in a family with multiple siblings, there's a tendency to observe your older sibling and see what they're doing. That maybe is getting them unpleasant reaction. And so you do you make an effort.

10:44 To be unlike that person in that way, you know, cuz you want to avoid their mistakes and you kind of learn from observation. Okay, I won't do that but a lot of times you turn out either opposite or if you admire an older sibling, maybe you strive to be like them in some ways, but I would agree and in some and to some extent because

11:12 I would I would have to disagree in other ways because with some of the kids all of us now, you can see that there's some level of somebody does something and then it's everybody sequentially turning the volume up. Everybody has to go bigger and louder or whatever it is. So it's the reaction isn't enough. It's getting a bigger reaction her bed reaction in so I can see it now with adults with we all do it now and the nieces and nephews you can see it with them as well. But the definitely the seeing actions or behaviors and not wanting to replicate them that something that I think all of us have

11:45 Seen and done with Daddy which he had a lot of bad a lot of bad habits. There's a lot of things that we see about him and hear about him in it.

11:57 He was loud. He was always talking and I think that all of us as kids in school. We are all quiet. We were all at least in outside of St. Francis. Once we got out of the little the little small pool that we were sheltered in once I got it high school. All of us. We were we were sheltered little little nerds and I think that all of us were completely the opposite of daddy to some extent

12:26 He was a big personality that

12:30 Because a lot of waves in the

12:33 It's not until you get older and in talking to him and in my twenties, he's the one who really kind of put me. I feel like the the anti-religion path that I'm on.

12:44 But also once you get far enough old enough to see your parents as people, I can see a lot of the things that he is and I don't I don't want to be that I don't

12:57 I don't want to be a compulsive collector, which I could see that I was starting to and everybody in our family is starting to show that the thing that I worry about the most about it. I think that to some extent he is not to some extent to a large extent. I think that he is very

13:11 Sociopathic I think he is extremely self selfish and I think about when I came back to pick up Uncle Frank's Car and visit 20 2005 after Uncle Frank died. I got the Thunderbird and we had to go and transfer the title and Daddy and I went to to drive to El Centro to transfer the title because it was a California car. We came back to you might had lunch before I drove back to Tucson and he was listening off cuz it was just before I was about to graduate or what I thought was supposed to be my graduation and he was whistling off now that you're graduating. I've got a mechanical to mechanical engineers and a doctor in a pharmacist and he's listing all of them off and he's saying I want Mary to do this and a need to do this and he's a listing of all of us off like weird baseball cards. I like a collection of action figures or something and it's

14:06 It got as much as I've idolized him a lot of a lot of in a lot of ways and thoughts are really highly of him and how its kind in the beginning of the end of idolizing a lot of a lot of the things that he says and does and that's where I lose my patience really quickly now that he's all he is just a he's just a megaphone now, he just to a large extent have a numb, you know, Shannon being a special ed teacher. She is recognized signs in his personality that he probably is somewhere on the Spectrum. He probably could have benefited from medication. But of course, he would never have submitted to if he never would have admitted that there was anything wrong with him, but he needed to be medicated for I can I can remember telling him one time. I've gone to the dermatologist and the dermatologist told me that I had rosacea.

15:07 And remember my father had rosacea, so it wasn't unreasonable that I might have inherited that trait and so he prescribed a cream and I went home and told your father has the doctor told me I had rosacea.

15:27 Wow, he knew everything he wants told me that.

15:36 There with a lot of Pride these kids.

15:40 That we have are the product of two of the smartest people. I know me and my father.

15:53 And I remember my mouth kind of fell open and I looked at him like are you really serious? Right now? You're going to say that to your wife Who Bore 11 children for you that you and your father.

16:09 These children are the product of you and your father's brains and I thought well and what am I chopped liver? What am I the vehicle that allowed you to to bring it to pass? Your Superior genes along. He is an egocentric individual and to a large extent. It's not his fault. It's just like in other forms of mental illness. It's not that person's fault that he's unaware of social cues. He's unaware that he might be saying something that will hurt your feelings and then he can't understand when you react to what he said. He can't understand. Why what are you getting so mad about you know, I'm just stating a fact as far as he's concerned. He's just stating a simple fact, you know, why should that be an issue of dispute? Why would you take offense to that? I pie?

17:07 He was I think he really genuinely couldn't understand why he got the reaction that he did often times. I remember one time in Montana and we've only been married probably a year and he was still clerking for the supreme Supreme Court in Helena Montana, and we had gone to some sort of political rally that they were having in the in the college there.

17:36 And he noticed there was a room full of folding chairs and after the address or whatever the thing was about when the program was over, you know, people are starting to Mill about and talk to people that they know and he spotted one of the judges that he worked with on the Supreme Court and and very animated, you know, he's sticking his long arm up in the air and waving and trying to get this guy's attention and I remember watching that guy. He looks back almost he was terrified like he was being chased by a lion or something and couldn't get out of the room fast enough to escape being trapped by your father and I don't I don't think he was even aware but I was aware I was ultrawear because

18:36 I was wanting to fit in and wanting to be liked and wanted to be people to approve of me. And and when I saw how people reacted to him. I thought oh crap. What is well there was that just reminded me of the the church. I mean we went to church every week but there was one time at church. There was a moth flying around in the Pew in front of us was empty, but the lady there's a woman sitting to fuse in front of us in the moth landed in her hair and he stepped fully over the Pew in front of us and reached out and snagged The Moth along with a handful of the woman's hair and jerk that jerk it out and this lady him in the mouth of the flying around behind this lady, but even if it was in her face, she turned around and Daddy's just waving his hand of hair out and she reacts with us, but they're completely stunned. What the heck look and he's just waving this like I got it. There's no words exchanged at the handful of hair. So,

19:36 Call hiromi in foot is well. I guess this guy really wants to make a hair doll.

19:46 Well, it's back dragging a little bit. I always have kind of wondered because we'd as many kids as there are growing up was having kids ever a plan of yours. And if it was was it planned to be to this extent? I had always wanted to be a mom. I always thought I'd like to have I was one of six and I enjoyed having an older sister my older sister and I were really close and so it was inconceivable that I were ever have just one child, but I thought maybe five or six would be a good number and I remember your father telling the story.

20:34 That he would tell a girl on the first date that he wanted a dozen kids and if she fell out of the chair, he wouldn't ask her out for a second date. And so we always laugh that. Well, I guess I didn't get out of the chair quick enough. So we didn't make the Dozen but I coined the phrase, you know, there's such a thing as a Baker's Dozen which you go you're a good customer at the bakery shop and they'll give you a Baker's Dozen which is 1 more than 12. So I always said well I had a mother's doesn't one less than 12, but then you know, if you carry it one step further you could say that my 12 child was my husband who needed a lot of Direction though. He would never admit that he did.

21:24 8th, he definitely I think he was stunted I think for all of art all of our childhood. He actually he was he was very he was a man's man or mine growing up. But the more we got to be men we could see that he really wasn't not anything against him again and he did a great job, but I think that he it shows that he kind of was coddled as a child. I think that he and I remember hearing him say that he didn't care if he had two nickels to rub together the day he died if he got hit all these kids launched Off The Runway, then he would consider his life is Success. So, you know in a lot of ways that was the admirable part of him. He he was determined and you know for

22:15 Store

22:19 A lot of the time, you know, he would make sacrifices in order to make sure that his goal of getting all of his kids through college would become accomplished. The thing that I didn't realize going in was that along with being his partner in meeting his goals that also meant that I had to I had to make do with army surplus bunk beds and army surplus metal dressers, you know that he could buy for ten bucks Army Surplus Store. We never had the luxury of having a you know, not that not that we were deprived of things that were necessary you had a dresser to put your that just wasn't I remember telling him one time, you know, just tell me that someday maybe someday I could have a nice dresser to put my clothes in 2 Youth

23:19 That's possible and I don't know that he ever responded. I remember one time, you know, he wasn't big on birthdays and anniversaries he can tell you when when

23:33 Roosevelt what's name the World War I could tell you when FDR's birthday is but you have his wife or one of his kids birthday. You don't know you wouldn't have a clue but so birthdays and anniversaries were not important events to him. But I remember we were coming up on one anniversary and we probably been married 20 years maybe at that point and he thought enough ahead to ask me what I would like for our anniversary.

24:11 And this was several days in advance, and I thought wow that's really unusual because usually it wouldn't wouldn't be anything that would cross is mine and it would go unrecognized so

24:22 I thought about it and I thought G, you know, I'd really like to have a new mattress for bed. Because at this point I'm sleeping on a second hand mattress.

24:33 And I was getting wire cutters in the morning to cut the wires that were poking through the mattress and scraping me in the night told him that I'd like to have a new mattress for bed.

24:49 And then for the next three days, he came home every day from work and told me all the reasons that I shouldn't want what I wanted. You know, what George do me a favor don't ever ask me again what I want for my anniversary just don't don't bother and I think that was probably the last time we saw an anniversary eventually got a new mattress, but it wasn't without a lot of grief, you know, you never got anything without a lot of grief.

25:24 I mean, I think the thing was that he was willing to sleep on bed mattress and it would have continued that he'd still be sleeping on it. Now if it was up to him, that's why I think he did go through a lot of East sacrificed a lot.

25:39 In some ways, but in other ways she was selfish. He was extremely selfish.

25:46 It is office. I mean it seemed like that place was going in there as a child. It was a it was a treat because at that place was packed full of all the toys that we weren't allowed to have they were too dangerous for us. And at one point remember wondering if it was if it was it as a kid wondering if he was taking the toys cuz he wanted them because we were depressed. I feel like we were deprived if we had very little but we are deprived of the the special toys that are there ones that shot anything ever anybody was going to shoot their eye out. Everything was going to shoot your eye out. But yeah it was

26:24 I don't know where I was going with that. He he did definitely go through a lot of

26:32 A lot of hard times I think for him personally and

26:37 I think they now.

26:40 Looking back at what we had the dad that we had is is the boys and versus the dad that the girls had. I think that it's a different dad and I hear it pick the stuff that Christine says and it kind of hurts me a little bit knowing that he's not what he was and she's not wrong and what she saying but I just wish she had a better view of him cuz I know that all of us will complain about him, but he did he did provide for all of us and he did kit get all of us to school. I mean every 11 kids with a college degree is that's crazy. Michael got a Bachelor's degree without any debt.

27:27 But

27:32 Well, it's so looking back. So you said there were five to six kids.

27:37 I'm not trying to put you on this fine with it.

27:42 We are.

27:45 Course, I was raised Methodist. My dad was a good Christian man, and we went to the Methodist church and it was a kind of you know, family where if you were too sick to go to church on Sunday. Then you were too sick to join the family for Sunday dinner. So you have to be really sick and you know, he was he was very faithful with he'd have devotions every morning read his Bible say his prayers eat leftovers from last night's dinner, even if it was a liver and onions, that would be his breakfast need pack his lunch to go off to work, you know him and then at night we I remember when he started doing devotions with family at night need to have the kids read out loud from the Bible and things like that. He was a good faithful Christian man and wanted to raise his kids.

28:33 To be good Christian people. So when I met your father and your father is Catholic and I thought okay. Well if we get married then our kids are going to be raised Catholic and I made the decision to go through instruction and become a Catholic because I wanted to know what my kids were being taught and I wanted us to go to church as a family and be together and I'm so as a convert to Catholicism. I think I took it

29:04 More seriously possibly then people who are born Catholic and raised in the Catholic church, because I have a lot of questions a lot of reservations as a Methodist had a lot of misgivings about Catholicism and I think by

29:22 By design that the Protestant churches have a prejudice against Catholics, and I was even though my parents were very

29:39 They they wouldn't.

29:43 Make any effort to make us prejudice against anyone about anything, but you just pick up on these little subtle cues. You know that we got I remember them celebrating in the Methodist Church. When we got a Catholic to leave the Catholic church and join our church, and it was like a big celebration. Oh, wow, a big victory is weird and

30:10 So when I made the decision to become a Catholic, I wanted to understand what the church taught and why the church taught it and so I launched into a big investigation. I was doing a lot of reading a lot of studying and when I did join the Catholic church, I still had a lot of questions and wanted to

30:35 Especially about the Eucharist being the real body of Christ. That was that was kind of weird to me and as Methodist, you know Methodist don't have saints that we Revere or pray to Mary isn't a central figure in protestantism. And so those were all things that I strived to understand more about so that if I was going to be a Catholic I was going to do it a hundred percent. Well, of course, one of the teachings of the Catholic church is that you don't use artificial contraception contraceptives. A married couple has has ways that they can limit the size their family if they so choose but it should be a discussion between a husband and wife about you know, there should be some mutual agreement about okay now, it would be a good time or maybe we should wait six months and then we can try again and but anyway as so as a

31:37 Learning Catholic. I wasn't going to use birth control and your father was kind of selfish and he wasn't very Cooperative with natural Family Planning. And so I ended up having baby after baby after baby after baby after baby after baby after baby, and I guess I was fortunate that I had the health to be able to have babies, you know without without doing severe damage mental or physical but I mean the mental part maybe some people would disagree at any rate have a numb.

32:15 A boy and then a girl I remember in Montana Steven and Jean were born in Montana. I remember after Jean was born all the nurses were Saints. Do you have the perfect family you have the boy you have the girl? What what's better than that 2 is the ideal, right? That's the manttra and so then

32:36 Then came David and then Mark and then Paul and then John and then Michael and Carol Jean wondered if she was ever going to have another sister ears Jean with six Brothers now and thought she was going to be the only girl and then when I turned 40, I started having girls and then we had an e and Mary and Carol and Christine.

33:00 Christine in December before I turned 47. So I was almost 47 years old when she was born and most people would be terrified these days have a baby at the age of 47 and it wasn't that there weren't some scary times because I ended up back in the hospital after Mary was born. I think it was with toxic shock nearly died. I think when I got to the emergency room thank God. My mother was there because had my mother not been there. I would have been dead. My mother came in and saw me laying in bed. She said, oh my gosh, you're flushed. Oh you're burning up. I'm calling the doctor. Well, your father never would have called the doctor. Your father's mother never would have called the doctor. They're taking care of the kids, you know, none is over there doing her best to feed everybody and make sure that everybody gets to school and doing what they need to do, but they weren't going to call the doctor and I would claim that bed and died.

33:50 When my mother called the doctor and he said get her to the ER right now got to the emergency room. I think Daddy had to carry me to the car cuz I couldn't walk and when they got me in the hospital and I had my blood pressure was 60 over 30.

34:05 Sorry, we're closed to check it out. I remember Bobby telling the story about one of her friends had seen Barbara rouff was in the hospital and she called Bobby is it? Oh my God. I thought it was you. I thought it was you. I thought you were going to die. Everybody thought you were going to do and I'm

34:21 So that was kind of scary. Most people tell me whole couch after a scare like that. I never have any more kids and I thought went.

34:29 Didn't didn't stop daddy didn't concern him in the least and I just kept having them and I grew up of kind of a pleaser second oldest of six kids and I just thought well, this is what I'm supposed to do this what a good wife does and so and so it's unique circumstances now with your dad after the stroke 12 years post stroke now he's laid up and if he starts saying something that I want to hear I can walk away I couldn't walk away.

35:01 So looking back at it. I'm not trying to say any anything that with the kids ism is a regret but is there anything in this in this history now that you look back and wish you would done differently in your life. So I'm the person I am today because of what happened to me and I think I'm different now than I was before. I always been kind of a pleaser and now I'm not so eager to please anymore. Oh be quiet. I don't want to listen to that. I can remember your dad asking me if you had it to do over again. Would you do it again? Would you do it all the same way again?

35:50 Oh gosh and not in a million years, but I have to say looking back on it.

36:00 I wouldn't trade my life.

36:05 I don't regret having done it once but not the way it was and you know, I couldn't be prouder and I hear such great things but my kids and people say, you know, it's a tribute to you. And the way you raised him that you have really good kids carrying human beings who are responsible in oh and good sense of humor. When when I have stuff in my file cabinet of email exchanges that we had between family members and the remember Mark and the the kid on the hood of the automobile story quickly enough, but I save that because it was just too rich to throw away and 4 for engineers going back and forth that that is the Hallmark of you know,

37:05 The beauty of a large family and the education and the humor and the you know how everybody gets jumps in and gets involved. And I mean, it's hilarious anytime. I read it now and you just have to shake your head and laugh cuz it is think oh my gosh, what what family what family could you be a part of that would be more fun or more rewarding than this one. I definitely hear it with everybody that we bring into the family because once once we bring anybody in everybody is absorbed in politics, and that's the big thing it I remember well with Jennifer that was one of the big things. I felt like shoot we were very into well with everybody Delaney the same thing everybody that comes and it's intimidating. You think I'll go wash. This is how I remember we we didn't get invited out to dinner as a family very often cuz we were supposed to like inviting the Chinese horde

38:05 Does Hertz Hertz ablenet? Well, I know that anybody that meets the needs of the family that spend any amount of time and he's short amount of time or long amount of time. They thoroughly loved the family and they enjoy spending time with them because the family is it's all inclusive. I mean, we're a big family until I think that is one of the big that's one of the big things about us is that you want somebody always gets left out until I think now everybody is very very wanting to be inclusive. No one wants anybody to be left out. And so I think it's awesome because it's even win even when I was having my bad dinosaur when anybody's having their bad times. No one Cuts them off their they're still part of the still part of the group, even if they're even if they're being a difficult person.

38:53 But I would say that I like

38:57 I like the way this conversation. I would I think you have a very healthy look back on everything to say that you wouldn't want to you wouldn't trade any of it because that

39:07 To say that there was something you would wish to trade that would indicate that something went wrong. And so I appreciate that, but I think it also going forward it.

39:17 So busy for me, I think I want one of the ways that I get over my own stuff is having a conversation with people and I would say that I don't think that that special to me. I would hope that maybe you can find some time or the other so we can find time to have a conversation with you because it's it is good to to understand that you're a person and you did the best you could with what you had which wasn't much.

39:45 I appreciate that cuz I do feel like there were a lot of sacrifices in.

39:51 And a lot of things that I probably would go back and do different if I had the opportunity to but you know, that's not an option. So

40:03 Okay.

40:10 I don't feel like we've covered that much territory we could.