Kaitlyn Parks and Conor Burns

00:00 Hi. My name is Conor and I'm 19 years old, and today's date is September 23, 2022. I am recording from the University of Virginia, and my partner's name is Kaitlyn

00:12 Hi. My name is Kaitlyn I am 31 years old, and today's date is September 23, 2022. I'm recording from the University of Virginia, and my partner's name is Conor Awesome. I'm Conor Why did you want to do this interview today?

00:29 Well, partly this is a requirement for my political dialogue course at UVA, but I also thought it would be a good way to kind of understand, like, how this organization, I guess, is maybe trying to reduce, like, political divide within the country and kind of how they frame that discussion.

00:49 Yeah, I think I saw a flyer, and I was like, oh, that sounds really interesting. And I love StoryCorps, and I feel like I'm in a lot of conversations with people who think the way I do, and I often seek to be in conversations with people who think the way I do. So I'm cognizant that, like, a diversity of conversations and opinions probably helps, like, the lessen polarization and extremism, which I worry about, though I see, like, benefits to it. So, yeah, that's kind of why I thought this might be interesting. Of course. Yeah. I'm really cognizant of the fact that story core, and one small step is really taking that initiative to really help bridge that sort of divide that you both describe. And so, with that being said, Conor if you don't mind just reading Caitlin's bio out loud, and, you know, if.

01:52 There'S anything else that you would like.

01:53 To know more about, feel free to ask that question.

01:57 Yes. My name is Kaitlyn and I'm a second year postgrad MVP student at Batten. I'm originally from Charlottesville, but I've lived in Alabama, North Carolina. I work a lot in the food security space, and I'm passionate about universal healthcare, equitable access and ownership of food and environmental justice. Look forward to talking with you. Did you do your undergrad at Alabama or North Carolina, or those are just other places that you lived?

02:21 Yeah, no, I did my undergrad in Virginia at Emory and Henry College in southwest Virginia.

02:27 Got it.

02:28 So I moved to those states after undergrad.

02:31 And then why are you doing your. What is it, the math? Sorry, you said earlier master's in public policy. Yeah.

02:37 So I worked in food banks, mostly, like, delivering food to folks who need help supplementing their groceries, and I. So I came to baton with food, food insecurity and agriculture policy in mind. Also, I'm from Virginia, so I thought it'd be a good excuse to get home.

02:56 Yeah.

02:57 Yeah. I'm from Charlottesville, actually.

03:00 Got it, did I? And then what were you doing in North Carolina?

03:07 So both Alabama and North Carolina, I was working at food banks. I moved to Alabama to do americorps after undergrad. Are you familiar with AmeriCorps?

03:16 No. I think I've heard of the name.

03:18 It's, like, under the umbrella Peace Corps, but, like, the domestic version. So I moved there. I worked at this nonprofit teaching kids about gardening and farming, and I was kind of like, Alabama's. Not really. I don't really feel like this is my vibe. But then I met a boy and stayed there for a little bit longer, worked at the food bank. We got married, went on this long road trip, honeymoon, moved to Asheville, North Carolina, which is something lots of young couples be doing. And then we got divorced, and it's all good. And then I, again, was like, maybe I'll go home for a little bit. Yeah, got it.

03:58 Okay. Sounds good.

04:00 Yeah. So, food bank life. Kaitlyn feel free to question. Yeah. So my partner wrote, my name is Conor I recently moved from San Francisco to Dallas, Texas. I attended Northeastern University my first year in London and just transferred to UVA. I'm especially passionate about freedom of speech, mental health, and gun control. I feel curious about all of these parts, so maybe we'll just walk through them one by one. So you. Where did you grow up?

04:36 I grew up in San Francisco, like, the Bay Area. Cool. And then we moved about a year ago for a variety of reasons, I would say one being kind of the COVID response of California. I was not in school for, like, 15 months once it started. I never went back to high school. And then my parents. I have a younger brother who's 14, and my parents were just kind of concerned about, like, what the future of education in California would look like. And then as well as that, kind of all the taxes, the political climate, all of that, as well as my grandparents live in Dallas, so that would have been a fun benefit to be with them. And they're only ten minutes away. And then my mom's company. My mom runs a beverage company. It's based out of Austin, so she'd also be close to that. All reasons to move to Dallas, but it's been a good shift, and just kind of like, the vibe. Very kind of upbeat, very friendly. In Dallas, it's been a good shift. My grandparents like being here. Yeah?

05:30 Yeah. Okay. And it's just, you and your brother?

05:34 Yeah. Cool.

05:36 They're still in Dallas. And then you were in London.

05:39 Yeah. So Northeastern University has a London program, so freshmen stay in London for the full year. And I was kind of taking it as, like, a gap year type of experience. I was never too thrilled about Boston. It's very, like, how do I describe it? It's not really a campus, actually, northeastern in Boston, but also, I was kind of like, I don't know if I want to be in a downtown setting after being in London. I love London, but just. It's a lot to be, like, in a college in, like, a downtown city. It's just a different experience. Um, and I felt like UV had a better balance, like, academics, but also a life outside of it that I feel like was kind of missing in northeastern. So then there's some people from my high school that went here, and I was like, seem like good people, and I visited. I'm like, this is kind of a good balance. So here I am now.

06:20 So is this your second year?

06:22 I'm a second year, yeah.

06:25 And I appreciate that you offered some things you're passionate about. Do you want to get into any of those?

06:32 Yeah, we can get into it. Yeah, I guess I can start. So I feel like. I guess I feel like it might be helpful. Like, I, like, outline a little bit. So I'm not, like, simply, like, on one side on different issues, I have different stances, maybe just, like, the broad, but I feel like I definitely have a more liberal stance in terms, like, when it comes to, like, abortion laws, as well as gun control and also, like, mental health benefits. And then I think a more republican view would be on, like, freedom of speech and censorship alongside, I would say, immigration as well. But I think freedom of speech is pretty important to me in terms of, you know, especially when we're looking at social media companies like Twitter and Facebook, and how are they responding to different things? And although they are a private company, kind of, like, the amplification of things that they do and whether that should be allowed or not allowed is kind of up to them because they're a private company, but more kind of challenging, like, the standard that we're kind of setting on barring people from speaking regardless of whether we agree with them. I think there is some line to be drawn when it comes to, like, insinuating violence or certain things like that, but that's just kind of my stance on that. But I'm a big mental health advocate. I think there needs to be a lot more funding for that. It's a serious issue. And it's like the second leading cause of death now for people under 18, suicide now. It's not really talked about enough. And in terms of immigration, I would say I think the laws do need to be reformed, but I don't necessarily think we need to have some, like, open border type of thing that keeps on getting presented. And I think there needs to be stricter laws around it. And I'm not saying that the wall is, like, necessarily the solution. I think it's more just like, how do we keep the country safe? Will also still allow for people to come in, but we need to make it a little more accessible so people don't try to go the other route. I would say, sure.

08:31 Yeah. Should I just choose one? Keep asking questions. I think something. I've been thinking, one thing that's just been on my mind lately, I'm taking a climate change class, has been climate refugees. And I think that's really relevant in terms of, like, how we think about immigration policy.

08:53 Yeah.

08:54 Because that's going to be an issue for many, many people who are affected by severe weather events like that right now. We're seeing that in the Middle east. And so I wonder what your thoughts are on. On where those, where those folks can go.

09:17 Yeah.

09:17 Like how to.

09:19 Yeah.

09:19 How would you write that?

09:20 I agree. No, I agree. Yeah. No, I don't know if there's actually, like, a set stone solution to it. I think that it's a good question. You think about this for a second.

09:30 I don't know, maybe.

09:31 I think that, yeah. So I think that there needs to be. There needs to be different processes. I think for people that, like, need immediately to get in the United States versus, like, a wanting to go to the United States. Like, let's just say somebody's living in Sweden. They're looking for a work visa. They have a fine life in Sweden, but they're just looking to live in the United States or work there or something like that, versus a different process for people that they need immediately. I need to come to the United States, or I don't have a home elsewhere. I'm looking for something like a refugee. I think in that instance, there needs to be more set up in terms of, do we have some sort of temporary housing for these people till it gets figured out? I honestly don't know. I'm. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's hard to differentiate, you know? I guess I don't know who the body of people would be that would be governing like, you know, who gets what refugees are getting let in, under what circumstances. I mean, I don't know. How would you maybe set that up?

10:27 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think we're seeing some of this, like, play out in terms of. Yeah, if you're, if you offer, like, to be a sanctuary for folks who are without, you know, without a home or can't be in their home country because of violence or persecution or conflict or climate, I think it's just tough to say, like, well, good luck, you know.

10:56 Yeah.

10:57 To know you have a safe place to go feels important, especially given the, like, increasing levels of conflict and severe weather. But we're seeing this play out, like, with Governor DeSantos and just, like, highlighting some of the tough, the tough choices that happen when you offer to be a sanctuary place.

11:23 Yeah.

11:26 There's limited space in the world and housing and jobs and I don't know the answer. I think certainly like to have some meaningful regulation in place makes sense, but just also to remember, like, we're all people, like, who are looking to have a life.

11:48 Yeah, I agree. I think in terms of the DeSantis thing, for example, I don't agree with what he's doing. I, I understand. I think the political statement that he's making. I don't necessarily agree with the means in which he's making this statement, but I agree, I think a little bit on what he's saying is, you know, it's a little bit easier for certain political people, let's just say that are not dealing with this. They're not dealing with the influx of people at their border. For example, let's just say Newsom springing up. Oh, like Texas is being too strict or something. Well, you're actually not at the Texas border, so you wouldn't know how many people are coming in. But also, I think that the whole statement is like, if you're going to say you're a sanctuary city, I think it's more like, okay, be ready because we actually have people ready to send it to you and kind of what your response to that is. And I think that maybe, I was thinking with the DeSantis thing, it's like, let's just say these are, let's just say there are cities or states that are saying, we'll take as many people as you want, then maybe they should have programs set up in states that are really the ones that are receiving the influx of people versus saying, oh, we'll take people, but there's barely anybody coming to that state versus when you're looking at states like Texas, for example, it's like a crazy influx of people. Maybe other states want to help in to help to alleviate that on behalf of the Texas government. I guess that's kind of one of the solutions that I would see to that issue.

13:12 Yeah. Do you see that playing out as a new texan?

13:15 A little bit. I think that, you know, it's definitely changing the landscape of the political landscape, actually in Dallas and Austin, because there's so many people moving now from California to, to Dallas and Austin that it's becoming pretty divided, actually. Dallas, I would say, and Austin, I know for, I would say Austin's actually more democrat now because all the people moving and all the tech companies and everything like that. But I do think people are viewing it that way, and I think that there's some policies a lot. I think that on both ends of the spectrum, there's some pretty radical ideas that are now, like, actually playing out. I think especially even with Biden's presidency, I think that somehow republicans have now become more empowered to do certain things when it comes to abortion or different things like that, kind of in this, like, rebellious way, I guess I would say. And I think that's been interesting to see, you know, the abortion, for example, in Texas, how that's playing out in different, different states, I guess, are becoming pretty, I think, at least on the republican side, I think, are taking pretty extreme measures to go against whatever Biden is saying. Um, but, and I think it's pretty divided. I don't agree. I think I understand the political motivation behind it. I just don't necessarily agree with the means in which it's being done. But when it comes to, like, the Texas abortion and that all that type of stuff, I think that that is getting into kind of a DNA. It's getting into a little bit of a dangerous territory now. It's kind of like, you know, when we talk about, like, freedom of speech and stuff like that, it's like, well, why is there nothing freedom of, like, choice when it comes to abortion and things like that? It's really hard to set the tone. You don't know everybody's individual circumstance. So to make one law does not really seem that inclusive of everybody else's kind of background.

15:01 Yeah, I appreciate that. I think that's interesting. I couch choice under freedom of speech.

15:08 Yeah. I'd love to get in a little more into the universal healthcare. I'm very interested in that.

15:16 Sure. I think that that plays into our ability to be full humans to have the healthcare we need. I think abortion is part of healthcare access, too. And I just think the system, there's so many ways that healthcare can be set up and it just seems like healthcare for all makes so much sense to me. How about you?

15:48 I guess maybe my question would be like, how would you replace the current system? And then also like, who would actually be paying for this?

15:59 Oh, boy. I need to be prepared. With all my policy agendas in place, how would it change? How would we shift?

16:14 Yeah.

16:20 I don't know, Conor man, I think Obamacare attempted it and I think it was pushed through because it had to be pushed through. So I'm sure there's something around like, and then I think there was some problem with fees to make it, like if you don't, if you don't buy into the marketplace, you'll get such a fee slapped on you. And it was like people were more willing to pay the fee at that point. It was like the cost effective answer. So I don't know how it changes. I think. Yeah. Some incentive or consequence to, not to kind of shifting into making sure everyone's covered. I suppose I am liberal in that I have liberal viewpoints around spending. So I kind of think that if we, where that money comes from, I don't, I'm not sure where all those pockets live, but if we put the funding into providing, you know, free health care.

17:40 Yeah.

17:41 Or free school, you see, I just assume that those benefits outweigh the costs eventually in terms of preventative healthcare and wellness.

17:55 Yeah.

17:57 You know, not having to make the tough decisions about can I, am I going to be able to pay for my medication or this doctor visit or can I really take my kid to the doctor or do I need to pay for rent this month?

18:11 And so, yeah.

18:14 I don't have all my cost analysis paperwork in front of me.

18:19 Yeah.

18:19 But I just assume that the costs would be, that the benefits would be pretty outstanding. But I'm open to. Yeah, I'm open to your help with creating this.

18:34 Yeah, I mean, I think that the issue I see with universal healthcare is that it works in other countries, but I feel like the reason it works in other countries. Well, and it doesn't necessarily always work in other countries. So when you look at, like, for example, in London, if you want to get a surgery in London, it's going to be a two and a half year wait list right now. To get a surgery and to get an appointment is just really, it's crazy to get an appointment. Basically there, it's like you have to call them in the morning and you can't get an appointment for two months out even if it's like an immediate issue. And that's just been my experience with universal healthcare. But I know in other countries it's more developed and it's more, it has to be just very well funded basically. But I think the issue that I see is how are you going to incentivize doctors, let's just say doctors honestly, that are making millions of dollars per year from billing off of insurance. Why would they ever want to go to universal health care? Because the government's certainly not going to pay them that much. And I think that, you know, when we, wages are really expensive right now and prescriptions are, prescription drug prices are really high, but possibly going down through companies like Mark Cuban and stuff that are kind of revolutionizing that. But I think, I don't know. I don't, it's hard for me to see a way that this works. I think with incentive, I would say starting off by who pays for it would be, it would be, this would be very expensive. Second, I think would be how do you incentivize doctors to get behind this? I don't know. Exactly. And I think third, you know, how is there a way for private insurance? Does everybody need to get behind this? And then the question is then if there's private insurance, like there are a majority of any, in any country that does universal health care, then obviously the doctors are going to want to go to the private insurance. And when people normally are paying with government insurance, whatever that might be, normally they don't even make ends meet when the government. So then they end up charging a huge premium to people that are paying normally insurance, obviously to make up the cost of that. But I don't know. It's hard for me. I get, I guess I get the value in doing it in terms of like a human level. Like everybody should be able to get healthcare. It just seems so hard for me to think about how that would be implemented. Yeah, no way that would work.

20:57 I think that's like one of the, one of the reasons I came back to school because I was like, everybody needs an economic justification right now and especially for these like social issues that I believe in.

21:09 Yeah.

21:09 And feel like I, oh, do you really need to be getting paid that much money? Like, didn't you become a doctor because you want people to be.

21:16 Well.

21:18 Is apparently not as strong an argument as like, do you want to make some more money?

21:24 Yeah.

21:25 Which is fine.

21:28 Yeah.

21:29 But yeah, I think you're right that like this strong economic justification must be made.

21:36 Yeah.

21:39 Because if not, I think it's, it's like a cultural paradigm shift of doing, doing the work for the sake of the good of, you know, the utilitarian good.

21:52 Yeah, no, I agree. I think everybody, I think right now, especially in this economic climate, everybody's looking for some sort of economic. I mean I think it's, I think first of all there's a big debt problem in the beginning of this whole situation. But I think that, you know, I think that universal health care. Yeah, I don't know, I think it has to, there has to be, I agree. I think there has to be some economic incentive. I don't know what that would be, but probably would have to be from the government. I mean, I don't know who else would be incentivizing it. But I don't know. I feel like there might be some other things we have to work out in this country before we even get to universal health care. We haven't even gone to like, is abortion the right at this point? Because in some states it isn't. And I feel like we would have to, we can't even, if we can't even get through that issue, I can't even imagine trying to get healthcare accessible for all. And I feel like that, yeah. I don't know. I mean, I'm actually interested in the equitable access and ownership of food because I agree with that. I'm just wondering how that would be. How do you see that implemented or improved?

22:55 Yeah. Okay. So I just, yeah, I appreciate healthcare.

23:01 Yeah.

23:02 Wrapping.

23:03 Yeah.

23:05 Equitable access and ownership of food and land. How do I see that working? So I'm very, I'm super like anti industrial ag. I feel like it's far too centralized in terms of like who owns production, big corporations. I just learned that there's only two meat producers in the country, which seems problematic. And so I am interested and supportive of policy that supports small farmers or kind of is more like taking away subsidies from super big, like super big farms and giving that to small to mid sized farmers. And I think when I included the word equitable because we'd be stealing so much land around here. And I think, yeah, the ownership of land and wealth is a big part of how we perpetuate racism in this country. And so giving that back appropriately through subsidies or grants or what have you is my dream.

24:37 Yeah. I feel like from my limited experience, but working in somewhere that was basically giving like, you know, immediate, like you don't have any housing. I'm giving you immediate housing, shelter, food, everything like that. You know, I feel like one of the issues that's not talked about, and it's not. It is not. I don't know how to describe it, but it's kind of like, you know, these people are stuck in kind of an endless cycle. I think that first it starts off with single mothers, I think is a big issue when it comes to food access. For example, when I was looking at this, so, like, the mother wants to get a job, she has kids, she's working. Then she's ending up paying somebody else the same amount to be watching her kids. And I think that was one of the issues I saw is like, you know, how do we get out of, first of all, that, how do we provide more support? I think to single mothers is a big, I think it's a big part of a lot of, actually, a lot of issues in terms of, you know, how do they provide for their family while at the same time, if some, let's just say I don't have a college degree. Let's just start with that. I don't have a college degree. I'm working somewhere. Let's say I'm making whatever, $13 to $20 an hour. How much am I going to be paying for child support? Probably the same amount. And even if they're in a, if they're in a public school, that's different. But at the same time, what if your job goes beyond that? It's nine to five. Your kids are done at three different things like that. And I think that it's one of the ways I feel like when I'm looking at equitable access for, like, let's just say food in general, it's, you know, that mom is shopping at the same grocery store. Let's just say as somebody else that has working, has a six digit salary. And I think that that is one of the ways, you know, I'm not saying there should be different grocery stores, but possibly, I don't know. I just, you know, you have different you. Let's just say you have a Walmart, you have a kroger, and you have a whole foods. Obviously, they might be serving different income levels, but I agree with you in supporting, you know, not having the large corporation setting the prices and having basically the monopolies on certain industries. But I'm wondering, even if we did kind of, let's just say we reduce the food cost, like, in that situation. What would you say about that? Like, that situation let's just say you're. You're a mom. You have three kids. You're homeless now. You're in a homeless shelter. Kind of like, where would you go for that in terms of, like, you know, you have your rent to pay the food. Like, would you say there's food programs or how would you see that situation?

27:09 Maybe, like, what do I do? Where do I go?

27:12 Yeah, yeah.

27:15 Yeah. So much there. You have so many good, specific ideas. Well, I've worked in that, working in that space. There's lots of, like, community services.

27:25 Yeah.

27:26 We do have, like, a pretty strong federal safety net program. So there's snap, which is food stamps. There's WIc, which is for, like, food stamps, but for women and infants and children. I do think more and more shelters are, are focused on, like, offering housing for single mothers.

27:49 Yeah.

27:52 Do I think it's sufficient? No, not really. I mean, I would probably just be, like, cash grants. I think that's gonna, like, be really what you need.

28:02 No, and I agree with that. Yeah.

28:04 Where does that come from? I don't know.

28:07 Yeah.

28:07 But I think that's probably the most effective intervention.

28:11 Yeah.

28:12 For lifting folks out of poverty. Snap has also been shown to be really effective. Food banks and food pantries, which is my background, not so much.

28:25 Yeah.

28:26 So I think. And then, you know, the types of, like, I think that the federal government is trying to shift away from, like, food insecure to nutrition insecure, to just suggest it's not just about what food you can access, but, like. Yeah, or that you can access food, but the type of food you can access. So that's kind of why my, that's kind of why I went straight to, like, industrial agriculture, because, like you said, they set the prices of specific food. They get to choose, like, what's on the shelf and where. So, like, yeah, it's that line of view. And. And especially these big corporations like Kraft and Kellogg making all these breakfast cereals or whatever that are cheap, pay a lot of money to advertise and to do so, I think that there's so many facets at which you can come out at it to make nutritious food more affordable, make unhealthy, like, poisonous food not, not available. Not even something in our purview. And then. And then if I'm a single mother of three kids, I don't have time to be cooking anyway, so.

29:47 Yeah.

29:49 Like, how to get support.

29:51 Yeah.

29:51 With that either. And I don't. Yeah, that would just be, like, I call upon my. My village to. Can we, like, meal prep together. And I don't know that that's so much like something that can be policy driven.

30:08 Yeah.

30:09 As much as, like a cultural shift of time management or where we value our time and.

30:16 Yeah, I agree.

30:17 I was all over the place with it.

30:19 No, I think nutrition is the big thing. I think. Because I think that, you know, when, what is cheaper when you're in the grocery store? A candy bar or something else, it's always gonna be the candy bar. And I think, you know, no shade to candy bars. Yeah, there's not a shade. No, I get what you're. But I think it is. I think it is nutrition as well, because, you know, I think it just, all in my mind, it all seems to stem from the beginning, you know, like, what you're eating when you're younger always seems to influence what you're eating when you're older. But even more than that, let's just say I am. I can barely make ends meet for, let's just say these children, and they're eating all this bad stuff down the line. This is, this could bite them in the ass again. And here we are. And now they're having all sorts, they're having diabetes, all sorts of health problems at the same time. We're going back to the thing we were talking about earlier where they couldn't, they didn't have enough money for different health care, different things. Now they're facing healthcare problems that could have been prevented. It all just seems like an endless cycle. But it seems to me that when you're. When you begin in the cycle, it just seems very difficult, regardless of the situation, how much help you get for you to get out in the end. Like, it always comes, it always. There's always consequences, basically. Even if you get out of it, something you were doing earlier just now, you're going to face the consequences down the line. So I agree with you. I think there needs to be a lot more money towards the food, but I honestly think. I agree with you that it needs to just. I understand the snap programs and different things like that. I. I just think there needs to be some sort of ike. I think some sort of cash grant. I mean, I don't know how that's a monitor. Who would give that out? It would have to be monitored, though. I think how they're using it, I think would be the thing that would be worrisome. And, you know, if somebody gets $20,000, we better be sure that we know who it's going to and what they're going to do with it. But I agree. The large corporations set the prices, but now I think it's getting way worse because of the economy, and I don't really see them going down. They're only going to be going up now. So.

32:20 Yeah, so much.

32:22 Yeah.

32:24 Yeah. I don't know. I don't know all the answers, but, yeah, it's like you said, super important to get a good start.

32:33 Yeah.

32:34 So much of the work we're doing, like we aim to do, is retroactive and trying to solve problems in place, but, yeah. How to just kind of give folks what they need at the beginning.

32:50 Yeah. What are your. I guess we could go on to education now because I'm interested to hear, because you're so involved in education and policy, maybe like, what your thoughts are a little bit on. Maybe like the current educational landscape and, like, critical race theory and different things like that, especially being from Charlottesville that's implemented in Virginia.

33:12 Yeah. I think there's so much more work that can be done around integration in schools and, you know, teaching to the full scope of history of this country and focusing on social and emotional health and growth of students. I'm pretty. Yeah, I feel like I don't know who's gonna listen to this. I feel disappointed in, like, the current administration in Virginia. I feel like you can. You can. I think they're kind of promoting this, like, parents choice. I like parent autonomy and kind of framing it as a freedom of speech issue in terms of what's in the curriculum. But I think that's just like a front for. We're not going to teach to critical or we're not going to teach, like, anything about race or identity, which seems dangerous to me.

34:16 Yeah. I don't know if you knew, but the. Actually, the Virginia secretary of education just spoke at UVA. Yeah, I actually went to the top. Yeah, it was very interesting. She was. Let me just say, she was well prepared for the questions. She knew. She. I think she was. Let me just say she was aware, I think, of what the demographic would be in the room, and she had answers ready to go to every question.

34:41 Just felt like it was so not well advertised.

34:44 It was not. I thought it would have been. It should have been like I was waiting for it to be. I thought when I heard it was fireside them, I go, this is smaller. But I honestly thought there would be hundreds of people, like, especially. I just thought people from Virginia especially would want to be listening to it. But it was interesting. She basically said what you were kind of saying. She believes it should be parent choice, different things like that. And I don't know, I feel like I actually kind of support her a little bit in that because I think that, you know, she brought up a good point of saying, I don't necessarily think that history shouldn't be shared. But what she was saying is, you know, if a teacher is going to, let you say, teach about something, I would like to have a conversation at my own dinner table about that conversation as well. And she said, you know, it's not hiding away from it. She said that there should be more parental kind of involvement. And I guess I think it goes beyond just, you know, you know, a teacher's role in the classroom is, like, to support the kids and provide education. But, like, you know, I think that what is becoming the issue, which I think a lot of people are noticing, is when it comes to certain topics, especially about race and things like that, it becomes not just taught, but then the teacher is like then inputting their own political beliefs into the conversation. And I feel like that's kind of what's happening on a lot of universities is that there's a lot of, I don't think it's really happening from republican professors as much as it's happening from liberal professors, but I think it's a lot of influencing people's views, trying to impose these certain opinions. And I think that's kind of the concern about some of the teachers. And I don't, I think it is important to share the whole history, but I think there should be more parental involvement in terms of, like, you know, what exactly is being taught? What are the conversations being had? And I think, you know, the role of the teacher. You know, they were talking about how many of the teachers don't feel trained actually even talk to parents in general. But, you know, I don't know. I think there should be parental involvement in that. I guess maybe, like, why don't, you see, why don't, why should parents maybe not be involved in that?

36:59 Yeah, I guess that that's not necessarily what I'm saying. But I do think this, like, kind of canned diplomatic, like, parent choice umbrella is veiled language or just like, ignoring racism in our history and text and curriculum and. But, so let's see. I think, I don't know this covert. The conversation in general seems to stem from a place of fear like, and lack of control, which I've never been a parent, so I don't know what that feels like. But I think, and kind of broadly under the umbrella of freedom of speech, it seems like I'm just, like, trends towards polarization and extremism. I wonder if we're just, like, don't trust experts to do their job well and get the training they need to, like, be resourced to do their job well.

38:07 Yeah.

38:08 So maybe that could be, you know, maybe that's the answer is, like, let's make sure given that. Given that we are all in agreeance, that we have a history of racism, oppression and exploitation in this country, like, let's teach it to a way that feels appropriate to children. Yeah, but then I think that's, you know, that's for a person to trust the school they chose to send their. I know that everybody can choose that. Or, like, the doctor. I don't know. I worry a little bit about, like, freedom of speech leading into assuming that, like, you have this entitlement to an opinion that, like, makes you. You're just as much of an expert as the next person because you have the right to talk.

39:07 Yeah, I know what you're saying. Yeah.

39:08 So, and I just, and I'm just, like, curious about what that means for people who have gone to school for a long time to do a particular job, you know.

39:18 No, I get what you're saying. I think that. Yeah, I get what you're saying. I think that, yeah, I think it's. I think that there needs to be maybe just a broader, like, I think there just needs to be some sort of guideline that's, like, mutually agreed upon of, like, this is just exactly what is being taught. Like, it's completely transparent. Everybody can see it. There's no, like, surprises. I think that would be one way of a solution for that. And I think that for the freedom of speech, you know, I think that. I don't necessarily think people are experts, but, you know, I think that, for example, we. This is, and I think this is relating to education. Business got brought up in the conversation. Like, you know, universities, when they have campus speakers. For example, you know, if somebody, if Donald Trump wanted to come speak on this campus, should Uva allow him to speak or not? So let's just say 50%. Okay, let me be more realistic. Let's just say 70% of the campus, let's just say, does not like Donald Trump at UBA. Does that mean that because they don't like him, that the other 30% should not be able to hear his opinion?

40:29 Right. And I'm not, like, anti freedom of speech. I'm not, like, in support of censorship either. Yeah, except for hate speech. But I guess, yes, shifting. We can come back to parent choice, maybe. I don't think you need both. I don't think necessarily it always has to be a balance. Like, well, because we brought in Donald Trump, we're gonna have to bring in somebody, I think, or only. We're only gonna bring Donald Trump in if the majority of students won't. I don't actually know how that decision would be made at all. Yeah, it's nuanced.

41:16 Yeah.

41:20 I've been really struggling with that with, like, the. The decision on roe. Like, what's the right. What's the right thing for how UVa should respond to this?

41:33 Yeah.

41:35 Because I think it's wrong, and I don't know that I need to hear people saying it's right, but I'm also cognizant of, like, yeah, there. We don't want to censor or make people feel.

41:46 Yeah. You know, I don't exclude it. Yeah. I think that I don't. In my mind, I don't. I don't actually think Uva should be responding to that. I think that by saying something, then they're not enforcing an opinion or influencing an opinion. But is it. Why does the university necessarily. Yes, they have ideals and values. And I actually have some interesting questions for UVA about certain incidents that have continued to come on campus. And I don't actually see Uva doing anything nobody's ever found. It's totally swept under the rug. And I think that, you know, for that, I think they've set a really bad president. I think that's been handled really horribly, and I just don't understand how it, like, it continues to happen and, like, they just don't do anything. But in terms of, like, you know, the Roe v. Wade, I think that. Yes, I agree that was wrong. And honestly, this. They're saying this could lead to more things now that in terms of gay rights and different things like that. But, you know, as a university, you know, they're teaching students to think critically and to think for themselves. Should they? I don't know. It doesn't seem right for them to be involved in any, honestly, political actions. And I think if something happens, specifically Uva, I think it's different. Like, things have been happening on campus, think they need to address. But, yes, it affects people's mental and physical well being, but I don't necessarily think the university needs to take some sort of stand on it, and I don't know if they should be taking a stand as a public institution, necessarily.

43:28 Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I don't know.

43:30 Yeah.

43:31 I think I lean toward, like, using your power for the good that I believe is good, but I recognize that's a, like.

43:39 Yeah, I guess. How would you imagine Uva, like, what would the response be? I guess if you're wanting them respond, what would you want Uva to say? Maybe.

43:51 Well, I mean, yeah, I would want, yeah, I would want Uva, like, any, any institution in power to acknowledge, like, the dangers of that ruling and how it affects the people that they are charged with during their time in school. Yeah, but I hear, but I hear what you're saying.

44:20 Yeah, I don't know that, yeah, I don't know. I think that it's, I don't want to blame certain things on, like, the Biden administration, but I think, you know, you know, a lot of things have happened during his presidency. He hasn't even been in his presidency for that much time. And, you know, abortion gets overruled. Then we have all these immigrants being all over the place and we have, like, do not say get all these kind of really, really prob, like, really far right. Basically ideas that have not just been proposed, they are actually being implemented. And I think to me, you know, I don't necessarily agree with all of them. I do agree with some, but, you know, I think that really, I think if people on the other side want to respond, I think for me it has to start from the top a little bit. You know, Biden has said, oh, I disagree and stuff like that, but there really has been no action. People are really, I would say people are not afraid of him. Let me just put it that way. And I think that has caused, I'm not blaming him, but I think there is some blame on his part on, you know, I don't think he's necessarily stood as strong as he could have. And I don't know. I'm just wondering kind of maybe what your thoughts are, like, maybe the current administration, like, with everything going on, you know, would this have been allowed in other administrations or. I don't know, maybe the role that they're playing.

45:57 Yeah, I don't, I don't know that we can, like, it might be a little too reductive to say, like, but it's Biden. It's the administration that is, I think, like, the culmination of these far right policies has been, you know, in the works for a long time.

46:12 Yeah.

46:16 And I don't know. I don't necessarily, like, think Joe has done the best job, but I don't know, like, it would matter at this point, I think there's some, like, I do think we're just so polarized.

46:31 Yeah.

46:33 And, yeah, I mean, I think the overturning of Roe v. Wade has been, that's being that the setup for that has been happening for years.

46:42 Yeah.

46:46 Sure. Like, could President Biden say, like, it sounds like you're wanting for him to have just, like, signaled.

46:55 Yeah. Or not signal maybe, like, I don't even know. Or, like, action, honestly, at this point, I think that for the Roe v. Wade, you know, I think that what? Yeah, I don't know. I think that what's a little scary is that I think that I definitely have some republican beliefs, but I don't believe in everything that they're doing. And I think a little bit of the scary part for me is that they're accomplishing a lot with the democratic president right now, and they have the Supreme Court, which ultimately holds almost as equal power now at this point, a little bit to what the president is doing or anything the government does. And I think that, you know, if somebody were to come in office, even if it was trump, honestly, I think he honestly does have the supporter base to be reelected. I don't know who he'd be running against necessarily. But even if, let's just say it was DeSantis, anybody like that, I think my concern is we would reach the most extreme polarization that we've ever had. But also, I think that, I think the nation would truly change in the next presidency if it was, if it was a republican president with a republican supreme Court. I think the political landscape would really, in my mind, it would really change to be extremely, extremely republican. But I don't see, I don't know right now how we would fix that. I don't know how we'd fix the polarization. I think these conversations, I'm just, I don't know. I think the next election cycle might be the most important, honestly, in my mind, in terms of how do we fix polarization. But I think it has to be compromises, though, a little bit with certain things. I think. No, in terms kind of what we talked about. But, like, you know, immigration needs to be, everybody's agreed it needs to be reformed. I just don't know how it's going to be reformed. And honestly, I think that there needs to be more border security, different things like that. Like by letting people in, in my mind, illegally, what messages that sending in terms of people that are applying legally, that you should just go in illegally and try to get in through there and NBC was just doing a thing on there, filming people, like, just jumping over, like, just walking across practically, and there's nobody there. But I don't know. I guess maybe how do you see in the future kind of this polarization being mitigated?

49:20 Probably just as pessimistic as you are. Gosh, I hope not. I mean, I don't know, worry about your future. I think we're the, I don't know. Part of me has heard that, like, this super far right base is smaller than it feels, but it's powerful. And that's also not to say there's far right liberals or far leftists, but I maybe have some hope that we're all just, like, people who want to belong. And if we can remember that, maybe we can understand why we group ourselves the way we do to try to make some meaning and stay curious a little bit and humble.

50:31 Yeah. I feel like we're all like, I feel like even in my, like, political dialogue course, we get, we like, it's like there's only eight people in it. People get really into the conversations. But I feel like even through this conversation, many people have the same beliefs. It just is like people don't realize that they're maybe more aligned than they really are. I think, and I think social media is really not helping with that at all. But I don't know. I think more of these conversations is helpful so people get aligned. I just think, you know, I think the issue, I think, is that the people that are, the big people that are making decisions, in my mind, my mind are pretty far left and pretty far right. I don't necessarily think it's people in the middle that are making decisions. And when you look at, let's just say, the three most powerful governors, it's Texas, Florida, and California. Ultimately, in my mind, I would say, are probably the biggest influencers of what's going on right now. And I think, you know, I would say Newsom's pretty far left, and I think Abbott and DeSantis are pretty far right. So I don't know. It's gonna be interesting to see how it plays out, but I don't know. I think there's more in common than people realize. But I think social media is just kind of perpetuating the issue.

51:45 Sure. Yeah. No, and I think you're right kind of, though, we look to the way our leaders are speaking. Maybe we need to get them sitting down on a story for a conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Technology, for sure. Did you watch, did you see that documentary like, oh, gosh no, I can't remember what it's called.

52:11 Is it the one of the. Is it like the. I don't know, actually just about how.

52:16 Social media is, like, preparing, perpetuating polarization?

52:19 No, I don't think I've seen that.

52:21 That seems inevitable at this point.

52:24 It's like another political battleground. Practically, it's just social media, but I don't know how that's combated exactly or if it will be.

52:33 Delete your Instagram account.

52:35 Yeah, but I think that there needs to be. I don't know. I think that. I think that's a little bit perpetuating the polarization to me. Like, you know, the censorship is causing issues. I think, you know, for example, if Trump is banned on Twitter and Facebook, you know, it might actually be in the best interest of both sides to hear what he actually has to say. And I think even if you are a liberal, maybe that will strengthen your opinion by hearing what he has to say. At the same time, you know, I don't know. It's like, what body, though, in my mind, is, like, qualified to make that decision? Like, who at Twitter is decided? Like, who gets, what qualifications should they have to make that decision? To me, nobody really should have that. Nobody has that qualification, and I don't really think anybody has that role. I guess you said you're not believing in censorship. Maybe we could just get into the specifics.

53:35 Well, I don't. Yeah, I think that, like, gets into, like, morals and ethics. I don't. I don't think, like, hearing Donald Trump out is the same as reading tweet that he wrote. I think that's, like, there's, like, a level of anonymity that anybody gets from posting.

53:53 Yeah.

53:53 Instead of, like, sitting down and talking.

53:55 To you about it.

53:56 And that's unavoidable on social media, and that's gonna be the way it is. But, and I just think, yeah, because of the way it works, because we're after likes and retweets, I just, it just seems like a less authentic way to truly interact with someone.

54:14 Yeah.

54:15 So I don't know that that's the most accurate way to.

54:19 Deliver information.

54:21 Yeah. So it did.

54:25 Yeah.

54:25 Did not bother me that he was banned from Twitter, but I. I understand that's, like, cognitive dissonance with my support of freedom of speech.

54:36 Yeah, I agree. It's not the right method, but I guess, like, I guess you don't need to speak to it if you don't want to, but, like, let's just say after the January 6 thing. You are Twitter. Do you believe at this point he should be banned? Exactly.

54:55 Yeah. Yeah. And like, I think that isn't, that's like an ethical question for the ethics committee at Twitter. And now you've put me on that committee and I said, and I guess I'm taking a utilitarian approach to that, too, and saying, like, yeah, probably for the safety of the whole, I don't want him to have this platform.

55:30 Yeah.

55:31 It's my vote at the table.

55:33 I don't know. I think it gets tricky because I feel like to me, this goes back to our conversation about who gets to speak on university campuses. This is, if you don't want to hear him or if you want to see his tweets, then you don't necessarily need to follow him, which is not necessarily true.

55:50 Like, that's like what's on the news. Like, what a dog, you know?

55:53 Yeah.

55:53 I mean, very much in the public eye.

55:55 Yeah. Whether you have a Twitter, you know, I don't have a Twitter, but I think that it's, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think that, to me, though, I'm not blaming the liberal media, but to a degree I am. You know, CNN doesn't have a viewership right now, and the only reason they had a viewership was because of Donald Trump. I mean, they, their viewership numbers have dropped a record lows now. And to me, you know, they highlight him. You know, the ultimate thing I can agree with, and I think Trump was agreed, is he likes the tension in media. And I think that, you know, CNN and those places have given him that and so much more. I mean, that's all they talk about. They don't bring up it. They don't even bring up current events. It's just back to Donald Trump again. And I think, you know, I think he should have a voice, but I think, you know, you're saying you're gonna see it on the news. Why is CNN giving him that attention? I mean, that's, that's all they do, literally, is give him attention.

56:52 Yeah.

56:53 So I don't know. I think that's part of it for me, is like, you know, his tweets, if it, I guess, to me, if the Twitter battles just stayed on Twitter, I get what you're saying as they're being brought into everything. It's all over the news. Whatever you're watching on tv, it gets brought up and, and stuff like that. But I don't know. I feel like there's a responsibility on these media companies that they're always bringing it up, I guess, is part of it. Yeah.

57:16 I mean, I think it's super, like, intersectional and multifaceted, and there's no way we can be, like, there's no way you and I are gonna be able to pinpoint where this polarization started from. I think it takes, like, you and I being like, what am I. How can I be responsible in my day to day interactions or how I consume knowledge and information and, like, how I'm going to think about my fellow person?

57:49 Yeah.

57:52 Yeah. I don't.

57:54 I feel like also. Yeah, I know. I feel like this is also, this conversation is, like, a little bit of a metaphor. It's going on because I feel like, to degree, I think, I think a lot of Republicans take an economic standpoint versus, like, a lot of Democrats are thinking about, like, the human as a whole. Different things like that aren't necessarily factoring it in. So I feel like there needs to be some sort of, like, middle ground. I feel like, in terms of just, like, economics plus, like, what the actual.

58:21 Asking questions, like, tell me how you implement this policy.

58:23 Yeah.

58:24 And I'm like, but what about us?

58:27 Yeah, I don't know. I think there needs to be some sort of, like, I don't know, middle ground, but I don't know. There's a lot of different factors going on. I think it's going to be interesting to see what plays out in the next, you know, I think also what's going on with Trump in terms of the lawsuits and everything like that. I'm interested to see how that plays out. I agree. These conversations are good stuff.

58:51 I want to thank you both for sharing your stories. I think this conversation did kind of come to her off quite naturally. So that was really awesome. So I just wanted to kind of give you guys a couple minutes. I know we're at the hour mark at this point, but if there's any questions or comments that you wanted to share before I close up the recording.

59:16 Feel free to do that.

59:22 I don't think so. How are you feeling?

59:23 Good. We covered a lot.

59:25 We sure did. Yeah. I mean, I like the last question. Was there anything you learned about me that surprised you or did you have any expectations coming into this?

59:36 I think I actually was. I was. When I saw the universal healthcare, I had a little bit of, like, I'm a little worried about maybe the direction this is going to be going. Like, maybe not pretty far left, but, like, that's just a big, that's a big topic that would take a lot to integrate, but I feel like, not necess. I feel like I was expecting maybe, which is maybe, which was part of the problem right now, but I thought I was expecting you to be, like, more far left maybe, in your ideals when it came to, like, environmental justice and universal health care, but I feel like you were, like you were more calm about the situation but were also, like, open to ideas I had. And I feel like. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I have some of my own stereotypes of people that are, like, I don't know, on the other side that I feel like I was worried about, but I feel like you were definitely more open and, like, it was helpful for you to explain your ideas, but you were also open about, like, how it would be funded and implemented. It's just like a whole nother problem in itself. So I think that was interesting.

01:00:39 I'm not the smartest person ever. So.

01:00:41 Was I who you expected me to be?

01:00:43 I don't know that I kind of thought, like, well, anybody who's participating in this project is going to be, like, open to having this conversation with me, which I didn't know you were required in your class, but, yeah, also, I think I just sense curiosity and, like, passion and, like, wanting to know what's best and good and, like, going to make sense economically.

01:01:08 Yeah.

01:01:09 Which I think is super valid. You have lots of good ideas and know a lot about different places and what's going on in the world. So I enjoyed the conversation.

01:01:20 Thank you. Me, too.