Laurie Feldman and Dan Franden

00:02 My name is Dan franden. I'm 61 years old. It's January 8th 2020. I'm in Santa Monica, California. I'm interviewing Laurie Feldman. She is my wife.

00:20 My name is Laurie Feldman and I am 64 years old 3 months away from Medicare age. And today is January 8th, 2020 in Santa Monica, California. And my interview partner is Dan franden my husband.

00:39 So we're going to start talking about marriage now. I was wondering who you know, we've met back in the nineties 25 years ago. How has our relationship changed since we first met?

00:57 Well, I think it's changed in quite a few ways not the least of which is coping with aging of course, but you know, one of the things that has been prominent for me is that I came into our relationship as a feminist. I've been a feminist all of my life and that's kind of been a subtext for us for years, but it's become much more prominent. I think over the last I don't know maybe 3-4 years since more and more emphasis is being placed. I think socially on some of the things that women have to deal with specifically like the me-too movement time. So, you know, the women's March the election of an incredibly misogynistic president, you know, things like that. They've all contributed to

01:51 Me becoming even more fiercely feminist. Do you think that's been a problem for you? Not yes in a way it has because you keep on attacking at that Italian verbally attacking older white men and you're married to an older white man. That'll be me. Now. I know that you're not necessarily talking about me personally until you point out what I'm doing wrong and you are what I've done or things like that when I mean I know when you're being you know personal to me, but it's sometimes I I think it's it has been in the past heart attack and X. Yeah, you said in the past that I've been married is like Sleeping with the Enemy. What did you mean by that?

02:46 Well, you know as a feminist and a heterosexual female, I've had to make part of my life relationships with men and specifically with you, but I often feel like

03:06 Men, don't get it. And I have felt like many times in our lives that you didn't get it.

03:14 And I've spent a lot of time trying to explain what I mean about things and it's been really interesting because I feel like probably for maybe the first 20 or so years of our relationship a lot of my

03:31 Feminism specific concerns have been dismissed or discounted are certainly at least minimized but over the last two years. I feel like not only have I become even more as I said seriously feminist, but I think you've become more conscious as well, which is interesting though. I think it's still hard for you at times to put up with me. Yeah, I do believe I've become more aware about feminine issues and it has been through the me-too movement and how it has affected our relationship and how you have you know by now. See I was right say I was right to wish has been helpful for me about Society in general, but you know, we have we raced sons and only son

04:31 So, you know trying to get them to see you know to do the social change before they get to my age will give you this change when they're still young enough to you know, really affect them change. How's that? How's that been?

04:45 Well, you know, I'm I want to start with a disclaimer that I suspect at some point. Our sons will listen to this recording. So I want them to know that I love them very much but you know, it's been difficult. I never imagined myself as a mother to Sons because I was raised in an all-female household for most of my life and when I imagined family it was surrounded by women cuz that's how I will how I grew up and then you know, I got married to my first husband. You're my second husband and had a couple of sons and then, you know divorce got married again. We had a third son. And so I ended up with three sons and no daughters and

05:37 It has been mildly disappointing that I haven't gotten to mother a daughter because I wanted to be able to do that. But I've really I think I've tried pretty hard to.

05:54 Instill as much in the way of egalitarian values and I don't know if that's a great word. But you notice to try to help our kids to understand that everybody's equal and everybody is equally important and that you know, nobody's rolls are predetermined by gender race nationality age anything but I don't always know that I've been successful. I was just going to have to know our children are going to listen to I to love him very much. How about how successful were we?

06:34 Well, you know, I find that our son's often approached me and sort of a stereotyped Manor, you know, like they have these weird expectations of what a mother is what a woman is in a wife and you know, an older woman things like that and even sometimes I feel like they're, you know, kind of patting me on the head verbally like, you know, they're there a little woman. Don't worry your pretty little head about it. And it I find it very strange because I know that they know that that's not me. I mean by example, we've had this non-traditional marriage our entire life. I haven't been the breadwinner a matter fact. I've never been the breadwinner in our family and you've always you know, when the full-time worker bee and I've been the more I want to stay at home parent.

07:34 But I did the you know, the music classes dentist orthodontist at all that with the kids while you worked and I also, you know did a lot of the house working all that cooking and the cleaning and stuff while you worked so they haven't really seen that and this traditional relationship and our relationship. So I'm kind of a followed by that as well as where they get these items ideas other than socially and it's a bit discouraging, you know, because

08:06 I really put a lot of effort into it, especially when they were very young. You know, I mean, I actually just think back to clothes shopping with them when they were like two and three and I always used to deliberately take them to the so-called girl section in every store and start them there because I wanted them to feel like they could choose colorful clothing soft clothing, you know, write something other than gray blower brown, right and they were fine with that right up until they figured out that there was a boy section right or that they were buying a girl sex and I never have told them that there were girls and boys sections like, you know, just we walked around and found them clothes that they wanted and that's it and so on.

09:05 But they figured it out. They didn't need me to point it out because somebody else did and once they knew it. They flatly refused to even set foot in the girls section. You know, I do know I was there and it was sad to me because I mean, of course obviously I didn't want them to be kind of brainwashed that way but I also I guess, you know, since I didn't have any daughters I wanted to at least have the enjoyment of helping the children. I did have a point and pick out attractive clothes and they just didn't want to they just wanted to wear those horrible dull colors all the time.

09:54 Which is odd because I always want a lot of color very colorful character in terms of CNA you as their role model of a man to older boys were a little bit embarrassed by it for a while until they weren't when I got a middle school and high school and prison high school and got less and less embarrassed by it gave though our youngest he he just played right along with it. He's I think he's just as

10:34 Well, he's is definitely wild and I believe that's

10:39 Following my footsteps. You know, it's hard to save its nature or nurture with him, but he never told me I'm barasat my breed fight about it and I would just try not to embarrass them but night youngest he was also one of the things that I know that we've been thinking about is the advice that we've been given that we were given before we got married that we've been given during during our marriage and also the advice we would give to other people about marriage, you know, do you think anything that people other people have told us has been useful. Well, you know, the gentleman who helped me up asking kind of pay my way through college I work for him, but he gave me work that I did an idiot when I was working instruction.

11:39 He said there's three things that a couple spot over and there was money the kids and sex and in our case was a fourth thing with those, you know the Dodge but it was really reassuring as a as I look back over our fights and then we were having our arguments and fights that really for the most part are our fights and arguments were fit within those three get three or four categories. So is reassuring going that well, okay. So if I can the first ten years of our marriage is like this I getting married affect next for the rest of our marriage to be like us so kind of reassuring to know that I owe this is just another fight over money just reassuring and it's also

12:30 But it was just a lot of again I go to use the word reassuring to know that we were fitting in the marital Norms in terms of arguing with each other and fighting with each other. Yeah, they're going back to the beginning of our conversation. I think of 4th area that we've certainly argued about if not actually, you know fought about is politics.

12:54 Yeah, cuz of course, I was raised in a extremely political family. Right and I wasn't my boys and my dad and had a lot of similarity with Archie Bunker. So, you know, I mean he was both my parents were working staffs in thought that way and we're not very political union support supporters. And yeah, but as far as I can remember the politics going

13:38 My house and so what you know, I think that's one of the things that we have argued about quite a bit is

13:47 Not only what it's important what's important to believe into think about it? Also what's important to do about what you think and believe and that's when you know at times I think I felt like I've sort of been dragging you along the way it took me a graduate degree in mathematics before I finally do not open it up and read read more and was more more involved and thought morning and that kind of boy, you know, I think maybe that actually comes back to one of the pieces of advice that we would give people which is now over 20 years ago. We established a habit of going for a walk with each other every day, and we usually walk for at least an hour and we really have done that every single

14:47 They almost of Our Lives since then and so we've had to what we didn't have to have things to talk about what we wanted to have things to talk about. And so I think that also drove probably you in particular to like reading more and you know, you know stuff online when that became possible and in all of that sort of thing so that we would have something to talk about as we walked but you know that the opportunity that I think we gave ourselves as a couple to talk every single day for a long. Of time without any

15:33 Agenda or specific parameters other than of course to not hurt each other. Hopefully, I'm sure because get back to them.

15:48 Fighting thing the three things rifat or four things you thought about you. So even when we were angry at each other and we didn't talk to the whole time. We were walking we still went for that walk everyday and we've had a few completely silent walk.

16:05 Usually I think the other thing that happens to us when we walk is after about a half hour 45 minutes one of us. If not, both of us can't stand the silence anymore until we start talking cuz we can't stand it and that's probably kind of helpful. Probably. I mean another thing that that I think we've learned much later is what we call the 24-hour Rule and that's where somebody asks you mostly to do something and you don't say yes or no right away. You don't say anything you give yourself 24 hours to think about it and to see what if anything happen in the next 24 hours that might relate to whatever that is or our resolve itself and we have found it.

17:01 Oftentimes especially with our own kids that sort of giving them that 24 hours to try to like figure it out on their own even though they didn't know that's what we were doing seem to get them to figure it out on their own a lot of the time but then the last the last piece of advice set. All right. Now the reason why I said we don't live up to very well that we really I would like to live like two of them. More of the 25-year is not go to bed. Angry. That would have been nice. Yeah. We've never really done that.

17:43 And it's been hard at times since I don't like going to bed angry at all. I mean, I'm not saying you do either but I feel like for you it was better than trying to resolve it before going to bed.

17:59 Because you know the song comfortable for you.

18:04 Cuz we we really had a very different approach I think to conflict. Where is I just sort of Beryl Street into it?

18:19 So it's been hard at times, you know to kind of reconcile or two different ways of being with each other each other for whom and you know, we are and it has been a struggle remember when we first got together like we would have an argument or something and you would leave because that's was one of your main strategies was just to walk out and I would run after you laugh now remember the time and eventually I think I learned more than anything that it wasn't going to be helpful. You know why we weren't really going to get anywhere. If you were at that point of walking out, you know, like me running after you wasn't not going to get you to

19:19 Turn around and re-engage. If anything it would drive you further into silence and withdrawal.

19:27 Yeah, and it's been hard for me not to going to bed flight or fight thing. You know that cuz I've been flight all you know. I know you don't definitely have never liked Conflict at all at all. So, you know, but

19:48 I've accepted that about you. What do you think you've accepted about me?

19:52 Well, I've had to get more comfortable with confrontation because yeah, I'm in a minute for a pound enter for what is it any repairs in for a pound if you're going to have a minute I got to be in it. So you have to have been having to be more comfortable confrontation and how to do ask about how to deal with that and I do not walk away and I don't know how to disengage without being hurtful. Yeah, that's a real tough one, and I I don't think any marriage.

20:25 I don't think any marriage exists where the two people have not hurt one another somehow. I mean, hopefully never physically. I don't really think that if someone's hurting you physically you should stay in the marriage, but I think that if

20:46 The hurting of one another is related to conflicts, you know where you're sort of telling each other things that perhaps you don't want to hear from another person. Then that sort of just how it goes and sometimes you have to just hang in there and

21:05 Yeah represent yourself, of course and be strong about you know what you think and what you believe what you want. But you know, you have to have a little bit of a thicker skin to actually stay married.

21:21 Yeah. Yeah you do.

21:24 And now we're you know kind of heading into the time of life.

21:30 Where where you know what they call empty nesters sort of coming back. But but you know, we are in that time of life where

21:44 We are in the I guess the last third maybe of Our Lives maybe and it's a time that a lot of people call retirement and I pretty much completely reject that word as you know, I didn't mean that really doesn't sound like what I what we're doing, you know, and it's and some

22:16 And I'll

22:19 We like our transitioning because that's what we're doing. We're transitioning into our next phase of Life which you know before you don't have to have having to be doing a psychiatric nurse practitioner every it doesn't it's not being a math teacher tomorrow transitioning into something else for transitioning into a writer and I'm transitioning into a woodworker. But I also think that you know, one of the things that I know I've said is that I felt feel like

22:51 I kind of got off track in the way of what I wanted to be the person that I envisioned myself becoming when I was younger. I got off track from that for a long. Of time in you knows my middle years and that was because I had to earn a living and support a family and so I just you know compromised I did what I needed to do which was to become a nurse and then eventually become a nurse practitioner and you know, it was a good career. I don't have regrets about it. I really enjoyed it a lot of the time and you know, I was sort of surprised when I discovered that it wasn't so much a job for me anymore as it was a vocation cuz that snuck up on me.

23:39 But since I stopped doing that which is about three years ago. I've really had the sense of having the opportunity to go back to the person that I was that I kind of liked and that, you know to reach for the things that I want it when I was younger that I wanted to be.

24:04 And to actually you know, go after that and achieve some of them.

24:11 Yeah, I know. You said that that you do you think you're now you're living the life that you were meant to live and I think that's great, you know.

24:23 As you're aware. I've I've never had a full-time job, so I can't I can't dumb.

24:30 Say what it was like for her to work the 40 hours a week 9 to 5, cuz I don't know. I've never done that but I have enjoyed being at home parent and taking care of the kids in the house and not you and yes, but as much as I could or whatever, so I guess what I'm saying is I'm enjoying watching you living this life that you like. I always wanted to become a writer.

25:05 And

25:07 Eating right before I stopped working as a nurse practitioner. I joined this writers group and which has been transformative for me. And since then I've written two books. Hopefully we'll get one of them published this year. So, you know, that's pretty pretty amazing to me. I didn't ever think I could you know that I can somebody actually write a book. How do you do that? I have no idea, but I did it.

25:39 I know I was there I watch that. I went out for a bit. I should get a little violin at the bottom Maybe.

25:48 Alexa but I get full off your credit if you've also involved cuz I have to call during construction. I have always done the DIY or thing as you're well aware, we remodeled and rebuilt every house we've ever had. I just recently got into word turning. I've I've got a lathe and I've been turning you're not balls and stuff. I do, you know.

26:23 Yeah, I've been making boards and I've been making tables and I've been making table tops and I really really have enjoyed that and we've gotten pretty good at it. Well, you've gotten to the point where people are actually willing to pay money to buy it and I I can't believe I was able to pay for my work. I mean, that's just it's it's just an honor I think or something I know exactly what it is, but it sure is all but that's another place in our marriage where we've had to really work out some of the Kinks. Yeah, we still do work out some of the Kinks in that because you know, we have given each other's least this window while you go right. I'll go into the garage and door in the shop and start working and we adhere to that for a week and a half or two weeks and then we don't for whatever reason.

27:23 I don't either and it's you know, so we have to rework that out. Well, and for whatever reason I don't know why exactly I have always tended to resent other claims on your time. Like I've wanted to have to have a lot of control over your time is you and you can't even different that way. So I have your time is your time. Well, I mean, I think it's a little bit more than that has to do with you did work that they all those hours and 40 hours a week since finals day 5 days a week. So your off time is your off-time. I didn't work the 40 hours a week 5 days a week, you know, so

28:14 I guess might I felt like having more flexible alert. Yeah, but I mean, I know that there's been lots of times in the past where I've objected to you engaging in some activity that didn't include me but you've never really done that to you know to me like it has seemed to me pretty much consistently that if I say I wanted to do something you say. Oh, yeah, you should definitely do that go do that, you know, no problem. I'll take care of everything here while you do it and that's you know, actually

28:50 Ended up with me being able to travel, you know, what to Europe for a long time a couple of times. I went to Grease 2 years ago for 5 weeks and you know volunteered with one of the refugee organizations there and you know, I I left everything here and you took care of it and I can't say that I had a great time exactly, but I wasn't here.

29:26 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what to say about that and it's been it's been hard to to accept that or to encourage it cuz I don't like the idea.

29:50 3 months what you do? Really?

29:57 You know going back to your retirement.

30:02 One of the things that I wanted to mention was how people you know, when you talk to people who've and I'm going to put air quotes around this retired. They sometimes people say, oh, well, what do you do with your time now and they say, oh, I keep busy as if keeping busy with a goal in itself rather with her. There is no value and not keeping busy. But this idea, you know that culture of dizziness as if the Protestant work ethic where we've got it always be productive. We have to be making something or doing something, you know, and I I really began to think about that a lot in this part of my life like not to say that I'm not of course also engaged in that because I can't really get away from you know,

31:02 The culture I live in completely but

31:06 I really have thought a lot about how can I support myself to just be you know to Value being rather than doing and what that was look like for me.

31:23 And I know that's something that you had a little bit of trouble even conceiving of yeah, I can imagine it's so I can't imagine doing something like I told your friends that you know work is work. I just like to work at doesn't matter really what it is, you know doing dishes or paying the house or returning a ball. It's just I said, I'd lie like doing cuz I like doing stuff here Busy Bee. I am a busy bee and I know you probably from that many of us. I'm not saying that it was bad or that, you know, we didn't get value out of all of the busyness that we've engaged in all of the productive work and other activities, but you know, I feel like again at this is just the culturally mediated sort of way of seeing the world that we always have to be doing something and I

32:22 It's hard for me really to.

32:26 Get to a place where I can even understand what that means to just be content with being alive, you know, kind of like what rum does said be here now and it's kind of a struggle, but it's also goal for me.

32:46 Well, do you think as we age are you getting any better than I do actually, but mostly but I'm getting better at it's getting my myself permission to not do.

33:00 That's the thing, you know, like maybe I'll beat, you know, sitting and reading for an hour and it'll occur to me. Oh, I've been reading for an hour. I really ought to get up and do something else and then I'll think why I should I and I give myself permission to keep on reading or you know, that's where thing. I don't spend a lot of time meditating or even just observing and that that would be kind of a cool thing if I could get more comfortable with that and do it more recall.

33:40 Well, I can't think of anything else that we need to say Can you?

33:49 No.

33:52 Okay, I guess we're done.