Life Decisions and What Matters with Carol Cole Kleinman, M.D.

00:02 I'm Ellie Kleinman and I am 53 years old. Today is December 28, 2023, and I'm speaking with my mother, Dr. Carol Cole Kleinman in Chevy Chase, Maryland.

00:20 My name is Carol Cole Kleinman It's December 28, 2023. I'm seated in my living room with my daughter, Ellie Kleinman doing an interview.

00:37 How old are you?

00:38 I'm 78 years old.

00:42 So, mom, my first question is, can you tell me about a person who has been kindest, kindest to you in your life?

00:53 I think as I reflect back on my total life, I have to say that my mother in law, Frances Kleinman was a very kind person to me when I first met her. She made it clear to me that she looked upon me as a daughter, not just a daughter in law, and she tried to make helpful suggestions at many points in our life. Many of the times she made suggestions, I didn't appreciate her suggestions. But with wisdom in retrospect, I think she was very kind and very generous to me. When I went to law school in 1996, not 1996. I did go to law.

01:59 You didn't go to law school in 1996? I did. I was. Law school, yeah.

02:03 I was 26 in 1996.

02:06 You weren't born till 1970, right?

02:09 You just said 1996. Oh, do you mean 1966?

02:13 1966.

02:14 Okay, sorry. Okay. I went to law school in 1966, and she paid for it because she said she had paid for her sons and her daughters. And I appreciated that very much. I didn't have to go into debt for that. And she was always there to help me when I needed help with the children. And when there was a conflict in terms of scheduling, she always put us, her children, and her daughter and son in law first. And I think that was very kind.

03:02 Thank you. Can you tell me about someone who's had a big influence on your life? What lessons did that person teach you?

03:17 Again, with the wisdom of age, I would have to say that I think my mother had the biggest influence on my life and the lessons that I've learned, I'm just going to be spontaneous. My mother and father lost their parents in concentration camps in the 1940s under Hitler. When they came to the United States as best they could, they put that behind them and tried to create a normal American life for their children. And I learned strength from her. You know, in retrospect, anytime I feel frightened about doing something or I feel I can't do something, I remember her courage and Strength and how much she did on behalf of my father, my sister, my brother and I to make our life as comfortable and as normal as possible. I think finances were very tight and I think we all knew about it, but I don't think we really. Again, when I look back, I don't think I missed anything substantial. You know, if she couldn't afford to buy a dollhouse, she made one. If she couldn't afford to make to buy doll clothes, she made beautiful ones, prettier than if she had bought them. If she couldn't afford to buy clothes in a department store for my sister and I, she made them. Same thing for herself, curtains, tablecloths, whatever. And when my father needed help in his business, she set aside other things that she wanted to do and did that so that they could provide security and financial support for all of us.

05:35 Thank you. Can you tell me about one of your happiest memories?

05:44 I think the two happiest memories for me were when my daughter Ellie and my son Alex were born. That was amazing. I'm just thinking here, another happy memory. I turned down acceptance to medical school in 1966 because I didn't think I could do that and get married and have a family and do all the other things that I wanted to do. And because my former sister in law was an attorney and was raising a child in Baltimore. I thought that that might be a good choice for me because I had been a political science major and it wasn't that I wasn't interested in politics, obviously I was. I wanted to live in Washing, Washington. So I thought that that would be what I should do. And also my former husband was eight years older than I was. And we're talking about 1966. And you know, people didn't live as long as they do now or they couldn't be assured. And I wanted my children to have a father living. So that's what I was thinking at the time. For better or for worse, I don't know if it would have made a difference. But I did not put myself first at that time. I mean, I later felt in the mid-70s that I really had to be a physician. And so that then became a top priority after my family. But at the time we're talking about, I put my family first.

07:52 So you were talking about one of your happiest memories and you were talking.

07:57 About, oh, when I got accepted to medical school the second time around. I had been accepted in 1966 by Georgetown, GW and University of Missouri. And then in 1976, I got accepted early decision to GW Medical School.

08:21 I remember you got rejected at the time by one place. Like, that was the first time I ever saw you cry. And then I remember, and I can still remember being on the base steps down to the basement where we had a playroom, and you were crying. Did you get rejected by a particular school before you got that acceptance?

08:38 Yeah, I had applied. I had to take at the time, I was about 30 years old, and I had to take physics, which I had not taken in undergraduate school. And I had to take the MCAT exam over again because they didn't use my former score. So I had to take a review course because by that time biochemistry was being taught and I had actually not had any biochemistry in college. So I went to one of those courses and tried to memorize everything. But anyway, when I applied, I only applied at that time to GW in Georgetown because I was living in Washington. And I think the basic response, although they had accepted me 10 years earlier, was, well, why do you need another career? You're already a lawyer. And also at that time, they took very, very few women with children into medical school. So I became friendly with my biochemistry teacher, and he was actually on the admissions committee, and he suggested that I reapply, but this time apply early decision to gw. And because he knew that they only took maybe one or two people who were married with children, women at that time in medical school. And so I did what he said, and in fact, I was one of two women accepted in my class. By the time I went to medical school, there were over 50% of the class was women.

10:39 You said by the time you went.

10:41 Yeah, by 1976, when I went to law school in 1966, in my class, I think there were seven women. Very few.

10:54 Okay.

10:55 So in other words, things had started to open up tremendously for women during those intervening years.

11:03 But there was only two women in your class with children that were accepted.

11:07 Right. That was a big limitation because the thinking was, well, she wouldn't be able to do everything. She couldn't keep up with medical school, plus family responsibilities.

11:19 Wow. So that was one of your happiest.

11:21 Memories, Kenny, when I did get it. Yeah. That's great.

11:24 Thanks for sharing that. That obviously had a big impact on me because I was six years old when you got rejected, I guess, from Georgetown or 5. 5 or 6. 75. 76. Oh, you got rejected by both in what year was that? 70s, 70s, whatever.

11:38 It was five.

11:39 But you started in 76.

11:41 Right.

11:42 So you must have reapplied the following year. So I must have been five. Yeah. So that obviously had a big impact on me, too. Okay, next question I want to ask you is.

11:53 Oh, the other thing is I'd never really been rejected like that. It was a wake up call. Not that college was easy for me. It was not because I had all these difficult pre med courses. But I don't know, it was a blow, I bet.

12:12 Yeah. Okay. Well, my next question is, what do you feel most grateful for in your life?

12:24 I feel very grateful for my family, my nuclear. My family growing up, and my nuclear family with my children and my life in Washington. I made some difficult choices way back when. For example, one being to come to Washington rather than stay in Kansas City. And it was a complicated decision for me, but it was the right decision for me. I did not think that a woman, a Jewish woman who wanted to have a career and a family would have a good place in Kansas City in 1966. And that was a correct assessment. It would have been a very lonely life for me. And my friends are very important to me. So it was better for me to be in Washington, D.C. where there were so many women who had, you know, the complications of raising a family and having a demanding career.

13:40 I'm going to pause it.

13:44 Continuing to talk about things I'm most grateful for in my life. I'm very grateful for the good genes that I inherited because both of my parents, despite all the adversity in their life, lived a long life. My father lived to be 86 and my mother lived to be 96. And I have. My mother's brother lived to be 102. And my father's relatives also lived a long time. So I feel blessed in that regard.

14:31 Okay. What are you proudest of in your life?

14:39 I'm proudest of my children and grandchildren and their success and stability, both emotional and physical and financial. And I'm proud that I was able to accomplish my career aspirations and have a family in a healthy way. That I recognized that I had to give and take in different areas. And I feel pleased about that.

15:16 Do you want to talk a little more about that? When you say you had to give and take in different areas, what did you mean by that?

15:22 Well, for example, when I was in medical school, there was no way that I could strive for. We had honors, pass, fail. I could not take care of my family and go to medical school and get honors. It wasn't. That was the equivalent of an A. It just wasn't physically possible for me, mentally possible. I would have had. I mean, you do have to study. I did very. Some people are very gifted in that regard. I had to study very hard in medical school, and I had to realize in an adult way that my goal was to pass everything. And I did. I never flunked anything. I think I got one honors once.

16:16 That's great. That's great. Okay, so next question is, how would you like to be remembered?

16:34 I'd like to be remembered as a kind, loving person who made a contribution to the lives of her patients and whose biggest achievement and aspiration was to raise a healthy and happy family in the United States and carry on the tradition of my family in Europe that had been destroyed.

17:17 Anything else?

17:20 I'd like to be remembered as a kind, loving person. Attractive, which you are, and thoughtful.

17:37 Okay, great. Let's see what else we got. Okay, so for future generations of your family listening to this years from now, is there any wisdom you'd want to pass on to them? What would you. Oh, I can't read the rest of this, but I think it says, what would you like for them to know? Or what wisdom would you like to for them to know?

18:09 I would like for them to know that life is not perfect, that you have to make accommodations all the time, that things conflict, that you make choices that you don't recognize when you're younger may cause you problems later on. And you have to be open to looking to other ways to solve problems and to learn from other people or other sources outside yourself and be open to growth and maturing and to not think you have the only answers. I think people contribute to this society and to our lives in many ways. And, you know, character is not limited to people who are. Who get high grades in school. They're just so broad and, you know, to try and be understanding of as many people as you can, the points of view.

19:22 Anything else?

19:28 Well, my father, when he was asked that, when he did an oral history, he said he wanted his children, grandchildren, never to forget. And given what's going on now in terms of antisemitism in the United States, I think that's, for me, as a Jewish woman, an important thing to pass on. I'm very proud of my decision to take my grandchildren one by one to see where my parents came from in Germany, because not just so they would see where their great grandparents came from, but because given the history of the world and Jewish people, I think that they have absorbed a lot of different wisdom and values that nobody had to say to them, but just by having this trip and this experience they absorbed.

20:38 Well, that's great. I'm glad and thank you for sharing that. Before we get to the end of the interview, I think we had spoken before about you talking a little bit about what it was like being in Washington D.C. in the late, you know, 60s, late 60s, and we're in a tumultuous time right now as well with the war currently taking place in Gaza and between Gaza and Israel and the protests occurring around the United States and anti Semitism and things like that. And indeed, I've read some predictions that 2024 is going to be a challenging year in a lot of ways. And I'm curious to know, when you think back on that time, the late 1960s, what you remember what that was like and if there's anything, any lessons or anything you took away that you'd want to share.

21:40 When I came to Washington D.C. when I was 21 years old, I was a very idealistic person. I was very moved by President Kennedy and his calling to the next generation ast not what your country can do for you, but for what you can do for your country. And so thinking that I had quite a bit to offer, I wanted to be in Washington. I recognized that I had been given quite a few gifts in terms of beauty and pretty good brains and. But I didn't want to be vain or, you know, self centered. I wanted to be challenged. But my idealism has kind of been destroyed. I would have to say living in Washington and watching what's happened since 1966 here, it's over 60 years. I'm not sorry that I made the choices that I did. I accept who I am and my values, but I'm not as idealistic and you know, what it takes to try and make changes in our country and the world is overwhelming to me. And I think that each individual can just do the best they can day by day and contribute in their own way.

23:35 And is there any specific memories from that period of the 19, late 60s and living in Washington that you'd want to share or recollect?

23:47 Well, you know, I lived here during the Vietnamese War and there was so much controversy and so much tumult and challenges to the, to our government, to the Pentagon marches on Washington. And then when President Nixon was found to be lying and was impeached and you know, left Washington in disgrace, you know, that was another pin in my idealistic bubble that got broken.

24:38 What else was I just asking because we had spoken at one point that you had wanted to share what it was like. Like I Guess living through, like, the assassinations of JFK and RFK and Martin Luther King and.

24:50 Yeah, I didn't, I didn't live here when JFK was assassinated. I was a sophomore at 64 University.

24:57 Right.

24:57 So that was 63, actually. 63, but 1968 was when Martin Luther King was assassinated and then Bobby Kennedy and I mean, I don't even know what to say to live through that was frightening and devastating and so tragic. And it was all right here, you know, all the funerals, the burials, etc.

25:30 And does that give you any perspective on what we're dealing with in the world today?

25:37 It just reminds me how all of us have to be very vigilant and, you know, I don't know what's going to happen in the future. I found out a couple years ago, around the time when Donald Trump was elected president, that I could easily get German citizenship and EU citizenship and that my children and grandchildren could get it through the same paperwork, although they would have to apply separately. And I just had the courage and the perseverance to go through that, try to put together all the papers and accomplish that for myself and for them, so that. That they will have other options. I don't know how good the options will be, but they will have other options if they ever need them. And, you know, when you see what's happened in the United States now and how people vote in the political candidates that they support, you know, whether they're. I'm thinking, particularly, I guess, of Donald Trump and his complete disregard of what he says or what he does and how he's easily able to get away with everything, it makes me think maybe that's how it was to some extent in Germany in the 1930s. Yeah, but they used the Jews as a scapegoat then and stole their property and built a lot of their. The Nazi Republic based on the things they stole from Jewish people, the money and property. I hope that is not something that we'll ever experience here.

27:44 Yeah, I hope so. And, you know, I think also by applying for the German citizenship and EU citizenship, that's something that not only was something you did for yourself, for me and my brother and all of our kids, but that's something that will go on in perpetuity. So, you know, many generations from now, if people hear this interview, they'll know that it was. Making that decision, which I know based on our family history, was not an easy one at the time, but I think given the circumstances in the world in which we live now, that that could you know, I feel it could prove to be a very fortuitous decision. And even if it's not needed, it's really nice to have, you know, for people to have those options. So I want to thank you for that. And just to finish, I want to share with you what you meant to me. You know, I know life hasn't always been easy for you. You face different challenges, obviously, around, particularly going to medical school when you did, and changing careers at a time when that wasn't as common, and having a family and having to make certain choices and sometimes give up things or miss things that you might have wanted to attend or participate in. You went through a challenging period of your life when you were getting divorced and then, you know, ultimately dating some different folks, and then I'll mention Bert Sapin and then ending up with Wayne Pines and. But I just want you to know that I'm super proud of you. And, you know, one of the words that I think of when you. When I think about you, I think one of the words, first of all, is resilient. That you're just a really resilient person. And, you know, I really. And then you're very caring. I know you care so much about your children and your grandchildren and your friends and, like you said, your patients. And I'm super proud of you. And I know, and I want you to know that you're a great role model for me and I know for my daughters, I'm sure for your other granddaughter, Anya, and I'm sure others as well. But I just think you've really. You're someone. I think when one is contemplating making challenging life decisions or kind of what you talked about with your own mother and how you look to her for that strength, I'm thinking and hoping that in the future people will think of you and do the same. And I love you very much. And I just wanted to say thanks.

30:41 Thank you, Ellie I love you, too. Thank you for doing this.