Lisa Nickerson and Evan Bucklin

00:30 My name is Evan Bucklin. I'm 32. Today's date is Saturday, May 22nd 2021.

00:42 We are at my house in Belcamp, Maryland.

00:47 My conversation partner is my mother Lisa Nickerson.

00:56 And I'm Lisa Nickerson. I'm 62 years old. Today's date is Saturday May 22nd 2021. I'm here at my son's house in Belcamp, Maryland. And my conversation partner is my son. Evan Bucklin.

01:21 So Evan, I thought we get together today to pay tribute to your sister, Jillian.

01:32 There has been many storycorps stories that I've heard on the radio that have just reminded me of capturing important memories and

01:46 I wanted that opportunity for us. We often talked about her. We celebrate many anniversaries, and I think we've never really talked about.

01:59 How not having her in our lives anymore as impacted both of us about a little bit but but not a whole lot.

02:09 Maybe if you can, why don't you tell me and I'll tell you what it, what it was like when she was still here. What you, what you remember about the kind of person she was.

02:27 So for me, it's always a little difficult. There's there's a lot about my time with Jill that I don't remember precisely because I was so young partially from all of the

02:44 Emotional stress surrounding what happened for me, but there's always the, the feelings are still there. So, for me II,

02:58 My sister to me, was

03:02 Bigger than life. She was somebody who cared deeply about those around her and was always trying to make the world a better place, even when she felt awful from cancer and all of that, all the chemo and everything like that. She was, she was always looking to improve the world around her and approval eyes those around.

03:32 Then it's really built the little things that really stick with me or more evens at things like,

03:42 She would sit around with a jar of caviar and eaten by the Spoonful.

03:50 Or really something that's really changed. My life is for her passion, for reading a book, a holic reading at the table, everything. So that that's something that's really stuck with me. Because now, I'm the book, call it. She did. I am that. She was a tribute to her, a lot of my, my academic interest and my interest in reading all of that. And I really think that that she inspired my passion for books and reading.

04:37 A nature and animals to probably. Yeah. Yeah, I do. Remember the story of the 13 cats. A couple friends of ours. My sister was obsessed with cats. Love them and Friends of our of the family. And kittens and a mama cat, from the Humane Society and brought them home to be fostered with us and kept them in her room. So, we already had two cats. And if we still have court, then the dog

05:18 We have no, it wasn't around. So we had 13 cast on oxygen but she insisted on them all being in her room so that she could jump off the bed or slide off the bed and take anyone off at any given time that she wanted to sleep with her. It was, it was quite a chore taking care of all the kittens and the litter box and feeding them. And and all of that. Of course, she named every single one of them and now so you have two cats now. So that that seed was planted pretty early on that and taking care of animals was pretty important.

06:03 Yeah, that we ended up keeping that my friends, princess angle kitten. Got adopted, by kids in Jill's 5th grade class. So I don't know if you remember that, but we want to think she wanted to do was to take those kittens to her class, even though she wasn't in school at that point, because she was pretty sick. So we loaded the wagon, in the back of the car, and put a blanket in it, and we put all the kittens and the mama in the wagon when we got to school and pulled them into her classroom along with you. I think she was in a wheelchair at that point. So that all of her classmates could enjoy the. And apparently what we didn't realize this is, every single one of those kids went home and told their parents. I want one of the kittens to the chills. Got parents are going to be adopting out.

07:02 So, I'm not sure some of those families were really happy with us, cuz I'm not sure that any of them expected to adopt two cats, but I think they had a pretty difficult time. Telling their child know, even the backstory of, you know, where those kittens were coming from. Some of the very first day when they went back to the Humane League in the interim, Jill Jill. It passed away. Every single one of those kittens got adopted. The only one that didn't was the mama princess. So, they called us and said, you know, the mama hasn't found a home yet. All of her kittens have found a home and we said, well, then, so that's how we ended up with three cats.

07:45 One of the memories I have is how Abby the softball player she was and she started playing softball when she was sick. Cuz she was only seven, you know, when she was diagnosed in in ten when she died, but she didn't want her cancer to stop her from signing up for softball along and her friends. And, you know, I was a big softball player, and you went on to liking baseball at as well. So she played softball, even while carrying a little chemo pump. It was hooked up to her. And, and then a couple years later when her cancer came back and they amputated my right arm your dominant arm. She played one arm softball. And I know you remember that. She used to hold them it and practice taking the ball out of the bit. Wasn't the only thing she did when she didn't let that stop her.

08:45 Yeah, whether it was continuing to apathy read books with one hand or riding a bike riding a bike cartwheels, anything that she could do before you learn to do one thing. And yeah, I remember someone saying to her one time trying to be really kind of ran into some acquaintances, I guess at the mall, and someone said to her, while, you know, honey, you know, God makes everything whole again. And, and when you get to Heaven, someday, you'll you'll have your arm back and she said, no, I won't. I have no intention of having my arm back. It's part of who I am and I work too hard to learn how to do things the way I do them. Thank you, but no, that's not true.

09:39 So she still got stuck up for herself for sure. But the thing I remember about softball in addition to her playing when she didn't feel well hitting the ball, still running the bases and all of that was after she lost her arm still being able to hit with one arm or left arm. That wasn't her dominant. But then it one game. She was playing second base and when you play second base your between person and second and the strongest girl in the other team, came up and she hit this line drive because one of those where everybody knew this girl and as soon as she got up to that the whole infield in the Outfield, all drop back because they knew she was going to hit a Whopper. She hits this line drive over Jill's head.

10:24 Jill jumps up and catches the softball in her MIT surprises herself. I remember the look on her face was like, oh my goodness. I caught it. Then she brings it down, put some it between her knees. Pulls, the ball out with her left hand and throws it to first to get the girl out, because the girl who was on first was already running the second because she assumed the ball was going to go over John's head. So she actually got like a one-person double play and both sets. The standard just went wild or coach started to cry. The other coach started to cry. Everybody came over and gave her a big hug, even the other team. So it was really cool.

11:08 So,

11:10 I know losing her, when you were only six, you know, was really tough. And one of the things that I think about as, as a mom, as part of our job is protecting our kids and I couldn't protect her from cancer and I couldn't protect you from the impact that all of this had, I remember thinking when you guys were little and you were three and maybe she was 7, but she wasn't sick yet watching you to play out in the yard one day and I thought, you know what these guys are going to be. Okay, if something happens to me because they've got each other.

11:47 And then, you know when it didn't work out that way that was no longer really the scenario, you know, and I think I felt certainly a whole lot more responsible for your health and happiness and I haven't been able to deliver on that, always not being in charge of the world.

12:06 But I think, you know, she was sick when you were three. So there were three years of your life where things were just really weird. It wasn't just losing her when when she died when she was ten and and you were six. It was all of those times where you would wake up in the morning and our friends would be at the house, or are you would wake up at somebody else's house? Because we had to go to the hospital in the night. In some ways. It expanded in our circle of friends know, like the gables and Judy and Glenda, you know, neighbors the backlist. There were people who really circled around us and help to make sure you got the school or daycare, or preschool or make sure that you have, you know, you were looked after if we had to go to the hospital, but the reality is you have a lot of time without me, when I was at the hospital with your land, without your dad went, when he was at the hospital and, you know, in some ways that might have bread.

13:06 Independence on your end. But I also think in some ways you felt a little abandoned, you know, and we've learned through our work at Camp, the kids often feel like a shadow of their sick sibling. How do you reflect back on that? And I know your life is like, well, I don't know any different long because that's that's how it was, right.

13:29 Yeah, it's it's tough for me to Tribute anything to that. I don't know that I have enough memory of that time to really

13:42 Really even have any emotions about that. I know how effective but before that.

13:56 I like music feels like now things were the way they were, I guess. But there's not much that I remember about about how I felt about that. So, what about losing her?

14:10 Huge impact on me. I mean, there was, there was three or four years there, where I was in a pretty deep depression as a kid. I remember the story that used to tell me about my third grade. Teacher, first grade, first grade teacher, saying she asked me why I wasn't doing my work, and I said, what's the point? So it was a it was a pretty big effect on me really? But in the same sense, it also really made me think about life or in life at the ripe old age of six right now. So by the time I really came out of that depression, fourth grade. Thanks to an amazing teacher.

15:10 That you really gave me a lot of important support her first year, you know, I don't know that I realize that because I know you often attribute going to Camp. Paul Newman's Camp is helping to bring but I'm at 7. So I've been going there for a few years and that meant a lot to me on the walkie and a lot to me. But still does of course. And they certainly helped me work through a lot of stuff there as well. But that's not really. What you kick me out of out of the depression. That was more. What? Oh, yeah. I Miss Gentilly. I would say is what? What really

16:03 Kick me out of it and working on on the project that we had in class there and the the support that was given, she would be really honored to hear that. You know, I think many of us don't always have a chance to tell teachers in our life, what kind of impact they had on us? And I certainly appreciate it at the time and I knew you really liked her, which was really important cuz we had moved that you're too which made things really tough. But I remember you having just cut so much enthusiasm, finally about school and you know, ever since really, right?

16:47 Yeah.

16:49 It was, it was in an important time. But it is also really set the time teaching for the way that I think about life. So going going forward, my constant introspection and and you on the important things about life, after each other and how we live our lives, all that came from what happened with Jill and the sport that I got time to cope with that. Do really need me a thief or think you're. I think it is fire beat them. It's interesting. So I know you studied astrophysics and underground and then applied physics in graduate school.

17:38 And I always wondered where the whole interest in astronomy and the universe kind of came from and I wanted to study the biggest toughest problems in the world, but why?

17:53 I always wondered if losing Jill had anything to do with that from the moment that we lost Jill. A lot of my brain power with spent ask me the question.

18:08 Why was the point trying to solve The World's problems at the age of six? But that, that mentality of trying to solve is what's up with me? I'm a Problem, Solver at heart. So for me, I wanted to tackle the biggest problem in the world. So it's interesting that you didn't go into cancer research because well, so, so part of it was also a look at one. What interested me. You what, what I had skill in that was very interested in doing things like cancer research, but the requirements in in biology of heavy amounts of things like that. It's just not my. Skillset logical reasoning able to go from nonis and then extrapolate. I'm really good at that and physics be one of those.

19:08 East were Sciences really, really goes well with that. If I haven't told you, you know, how proud of you?

19:20 And yeah.

19:23 Is your you're you're good at things that in many ways. She wasn't. In fact, the only only thing that she needed any tutoring it when she was in school. Despite all the classes that she messaged him being in the hospital was that

19:40 And mrs. Miller. Her first grade teacher, did tutoring for her over a couple of Summers and with the tutoring, she did great. But that, you know, if you would have asked Jill in a, what's your strong suit? It was frightening and it was storytelling. It artwork and things like that more and more like me, where, where your attitude has always been science and that the things that came forth, it more difficult to, to me, and Jill are always really easy to you to keep being all of the things that you do. And I, I wish I, I knew, I wish I remembered more about that time to think back to before Jill's death. If there was anything, I was good at that was so young that it, it's really hard to say, but I suspect that.

20:30 The way I had to use my brain in order to try that constant thinking and problem-solving, probably stimulated that part of Neurology. Yeah. Well, it's nature and nurture, musician and worked in a bank into all of that. And, you know, your dad has real, aptitude computers and, and bath in that area has those areas to let you know. We're all just such an interesting mix of everything. So each person kind of a science experiment where you are now and what she'd be like if she would still here and I should be what 36 years old. Now, it's just impossible for me to

21:28 And Mallory, her best friend is still in our life. It's just really, really cool.

21:34 Probably sarcastic and ride so sarcastic. So, what did she write on her arm? When she went into surgery to remember on her left arm. Arm, that wasn't to be in the other arm. Stupid.

21:58 So that when they took her down off in the operating room, that's the first thing that the doctors in the whole medical team. We're taking your arm off to read when he when he takes everything off. Is it's the other arm stupid. Just what you should be calling us stupid and that was her nurse at Children's Hospital. He did that for her. She said, Jillian, I was there anything you want to do, you know before this this happens and she was thinking like, I don't know. I want to do it. Two handed cartwheel cuz I'm not going anywhere she goes. Yeah, you know, I think I want to write on my other arm to make sure they make a mistake, so they got a Sharpie and they wrote on the other arm. It's the other one stupid and this was back in the day when Bill Clinton was President. He said something about, it's the economy stupid. Like this is what matters the most that were working on it and she had taken a page out of his Playbook.

22:58 Oh, oh well tell that story. So what did what is used to go to the Outpatient Center for chemotherapy and part of what they did? And I don't know if you actually know all of this background that part of what they would do before. You can get chemo as they have to check something called. The specific gravity is basically how hydrated you are so that you don't get a toxic level of chemotherapy. So the soon as you would go into the clinic each day, you would have to take it off and go in the bathroom and provide a sample of urine and she got into some conversation the day before. We one of the nurses and they have told her a story about what some kid did one time, she thought I want to do that. So what it was was that little Cantina there were there, Seuss's of snack bars and all that stuff in. And then she has heard that this one could have gone in and filled up his urine cup with apple juice and handed it over to the

23:58 I completely screwed up the specific gravity test.

24:07 And she she said oh Jill, you know, you're going to have to drink some water to to fix this. You know, let me let me hook up an IV and all that here. Just give it back to me. Let me put it through another time.

24:23 The nurse said she was working with, was not the nurse that had told her the story the other day.

24:30 That was that was that was a fun day. Wish. I was still sense of humor. Life, gives you lemons? You make lemonade.

24:41 Yeah, it's just approached everything with that attitude. And I don't think that, I think that was a, a core part of who she was. I think it's, she was 36 to you to still have that sense of humor. She also tended to draw people in. So I have a feeling, she have a pretty robust and consistent friend group. She was always the advocate for the underdog remember here. Is that her friend Jimmy who had a congenital heart problem in her class, and he was in a wheelchair long before she was. And Timmy didn't have many friends because kids that were that young just really didn't know what to make of that. You know, we couldn't run and play and do the things that they did out on the playground. So jelly used to sit on his lap on it on his electric wheelchair know Ariana, these kids were only nine or ten years old at the time so you don't do that boys and girls don't like sit on each other's laps.

25:41 You know, they certainly weren't in a romantic relationship with one another and Timmy's wheelchair with electric. So he would take her on loops around the playground, you know, practically popping wheelie and she would just laugh and giggle the entire time and they played, they played kickball, you know, from the wheelchair, because he couldn't kick his legs. So well, but she could so he would she would run up, he would run up on the wheelchair and see what kick the ball. But if you ever made fun of someone because of their differences, you would, you would catch her wrath in a, whether it was because you were chubby, and she would say, she would never call anybody fat or whether it was because you and glasses, or you had a disability or or anything that just wasn't cool and her, and she would call you out on it. And usually and, including adults. I remember a few of our friends, said something at our house about a neighbor or something, and

26:41 That's not nice. You don't talk about people that way she was. She was a lot better than me. And in that case, now, I I really learned a lot from how she treated other people. And that was really long before she had the disability, you know, herself. It was just more what was in her, her heart and her soul, think I probably absorb a lot of that myself. You did. Yeah, you know, you advocate for everybody. I appreciate that. It's what's made you a really good educator, you know, as as being a professor, you have really helped those kids who wear science hasn't come easily to them. And I think that that's been really important, any educator. I think that's true for any human being.

27:41 How they feel about it after that, as always.

27:47 Need me successful. When I find you somebody something they're struggling with. And it's interesting to see that that that aspect. I know she wanted to be a vet. I do. I was actually just going to bring that up cuz I definitely see her her being a fat, the greatest definitely the animals, you would have wholeheartedly then I bet. Yeah, I think that would have been really tough for her though because I think we have friends who were our vets and it's a really tough job, cuz you can always save every animal that you're working with and you also work with some people that don't appreciate the animals that they have. So, I think that would be a challenge, but I think that she would have taken it on would have been pretty pretty tough back if you're not intending to go through heroic effort. Otherwise,

28:47 I've even said this to her friend, Judy to that really close to jail through both of them having cancer together years ago. I wonder how she would have handled Donald Trump's presidency. Haha. Haha. Haha. You want to go there? I think of how he met with people of people with disabilities and I think that's how he's treated women and there were just so many times over those terrible for years where I just know she would have been curious and she would have been at the women's March in Washington. She would have been at our church for our lives. She would have, she would have maybe even changed the trajectory of what she was doing in the world. I could see her in a given up being of that for a number of years, in order to put herself wholeheartedly into

29:43 In a pound of saving empathy in the world and, and it's eating the underserved that kind of thing. She'd be in the Congress or Senate. Tammy Duckworth is a double or triple amputee. She was a helicopter pilot and lost her limbs in the Iraq War and she is fierce. And I can see Bill being in a fierce like that. Because once you've been through that kind of challenge, I think in your life, whether it's earlier or later, it's really hard to be careful of the little things, right, you know, and I certainly find that that, you know, sometimes I'm older than I should be in my job.

30:34 But it's also because there's not a whole lot of room for, not being open and honest and Frank, and I often wonder if my personality would be different if we hadn't been through. You know, that that hardship most likely remaining tile. What do you think I've gone to bat for you. If you don't, it's just a few, I've had a couple of professors teachers in my sexy, my childhood do describes you as scary.

31:19 Not not because not because you weren't entirely right in what you were saying, but we would be in Suzy azzam. And I take no crap attitude, just because what's it wasn't? You understand? What's important? I guess we had a situation like that. I really think I

31:44 Became something different during Jill's illness. I've never been a Wallflower or or shy, but I don't think I've always been assertive and when, when it came down to her life and advocating for making sure she got a right meds or, you know, when we had amazing doctors and nurses at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and it's on Kettering in in New York. We really did. But I remember one one anesthesiologist at 2 probably was doing that because they normally don't necessarily have a great bedside manner. They don't need to. You know, what, folks because they're people are under under anesthesia, but she was applying anesthesia for minor procedure that Joe was having done and when she still went to sleep, she pointed to me. And she goes, you out.

32:41 And the nurse was there, and the nurse was even surprised. We were in a little procedure room. And I said, what do you? What do you mean? And she goes? Yeah, you don't need to be here. Now. She's asleep.

32:53 And she's was treating a parent with a child with serious cancer that way. And I talked about zero empathy. Right? And I remember like straightening up my back and thinking I don't know who you are. But no, I'm not leaving. No one told me I needed to leave. I'm going to be here holding her hand until she wakes up. This is not like some secure and you know sanitary environment where you're doing open heart surgery, so she said well, then I'm not doing the procedure.

33:24 And I said, well then we've got a standoff.

33:28 Are you doing? What is best for the patient right now? Because I thought you took a hypocrite Hippocratic Oath.

33:35 The nurse was look like a deer in headlights, like what's going to happen here? And there were several minutes of silence where we were just looking at each other and Jill's under

33:46 And she said, fine. And now I'm thinking I don't want this person doing anything with with my kids, but fortunately, she was the anesthesiologist not person doing the procedure. So the other thing that I think played a role in that is so the doctor who was doing the procedure blocked in and I don't think she wanted to have to explain what was, what was going on in that standoff that I remember feeling at that. Moment, something shifted in me, you know, that there were things and I wouldn't have gone to bat for myself like that, but you don't mess with my child and you don't mess with my child's health of a lot of that probably translated, you know two winds when you were in school and I truly don't believe in people being helicopter parents and I think that that can really be a deficit to the child and not not learning autonomy and and how to advocate for themselves and all of that but there's some situations where, you know, you just need somebody to step in and say, no, that's that's not okay.

34:46 You have time for you. Let me take my lumps. Yeah, yeah.

34:58 We're not going to fight all the battles for you. Yeah, there was there was a number of times and especially in high school. Where is it playing at 2 at The View with my own?

35:09 Failures. What's the angel? Joel would have been your coach that, you know, even if mom was going to go into school and fight a battle with the teacher or something. You would have had a sounding board in more ways than maybe you were able to, you know, in your life. I mean, your friends and so forth, but I think it's different than having a sibling and me being an only child. I have Aunt Dawn but you and I are half sisters and she's twenty years older. So we really didn't have that sibling relationship. Like you guys did. What do you think?

35:48 What do you think she would?

35:51 Want us to do in her honor, now that were left here without her.

36:06 I think in a lot of ways we do that at advocate, for those who can't love our animals, as many of them as we can.

36:25 Try to make the world a better place and approach everything with a good dose of humor.

36:33 I think that's a great moral to live by eat. Lots and lots of sushi. Sushi. Ya Nour, are you for that matter? And that's something that we do to every year on her birthday. Eat lots of sushi and caviar and Angels honor that are cats.

37:04 Well, I know she'd be proud of you and I'm really proud of you. Thank you. I couldn't ask for a better son.