Merton Kickliter and Jay Kickliter

00:02 Is Aaliyah from the Air Force be want to check with us?

00:10 X j kicklighter, I'm 29 September 28th 2008 when fully square and I'm interviewing my dad Martin kicklighter.

00:26 My name is Merchant kicklighter. I'm 82 and today is September 28th. And it we are at Foley square and my partner is my son.

00:44 I so how did you wind up in the air force? I was going to the University of Colorado and then my third year. I realize that I was taking nothing that would ever get me a job. And while I was thinking about that the Air Force came around recruiting.

01:01 People to go to Pilot School and I immediately signed up. How did they know to come for you? They had a record from my being in there before when did close down before I got to go to flying school? When was that that was in 1945 where we going to school University of Colorado?

01:25 What year were you in when they came looking for you 1949 I was in the class of 49 a and the Air Force and I got out in a 1919 50 and since I was a second Lieutenant as soon as the Korean War started they send all the young lieutenants to the Korean War and when I got there since I have been flying and 86 which in the Navy is Colin SNJ, I was sent to a tactical control Squadron job was to fly the airplane to a certain area every day with an infantry officer in the back.

02:11 Which would know whether he was looking at a battalion or whatever there is an infantry and when we would find things we would call back to fighter squadrons and if it was something they were wanted they were interested in they would come in. We would fire smoke Rockets into and smoke Rockets into the Target and the Jets with strafe and then when it was over they would leave and if we needed more we would call more and we did this for 4 hours every day and

02:45 On an early January 1950. We had the operation like normal and we were

02:55 I was flying with a man named George news who was just about as good an infantry officer as I think you could find and We Came Upon a convoy of a truck and so we went down to take a look at the trucks. And as I got to the head of the trucks, there was a armored vehicle and the armored vehicle has chopped holes in airplane and the engine quit and I was forced to pull up and crash into a rice paddy.

03:27 The Landing was fine, but the airplane hit a liar Dyke at the end of the rice paddy and tore the airplane up and we were able to get out though and I had a head injury and George news had a broken ankle, but we are able to climb into a Ditch Witch was right near the airplane and then the Korean infantry started firing at us, but we were in this ditch and they they could do was nothing they could do because all the airplanes I had with me started circling around and anytime they would get out of clothes they would strike them and so we were there and wondering what's going to happen because we didn't think anybody could come get us in the situation, but you just about the time it got dark.

04:19 Helicopter friend of mine. I pilot a friend of mine and my class volunteered to try to get us out and he came.

04:30 I want in the meantime, Joe. I said George. What do we what do we do? You know if we don't get the hell are does helicopter doesn't come and he said well, there's only one thing to do will fight him. I said George we don't have it about 15 bill. That's how we going to fight them. And he said well they're going to kill us. So, I don't know that George I said, well, maybe maybe we ought to surrender who said what are you going to kill us? Anyway, so well that they definitely will kill us if we fight them so we were still arguing about that and then my head was bleeding so bad George pull the scalp back over there where it belongs with my whole side of my head was was ripped off and George was not a sympathetic fellow and I said was George what's wrong when he said it looks like half your head is gone. And unfortunately it wasn't but it was just asked and was pulled all the way back.

05:24 And so we were still talking about that and the helicopter came in the landed and we got out of the ditch ran to the helicopter. And as I was trying to get in the helicopter pilot was right side of cuz he was taking fire and as I got in the helicopter pilot a lieutenant Moore who was in my class and it volunteered to come get us reach back pulled me in and is he reach back a bullet came right through where he was sitting and the only thing that saved him and us and then though the helicopter got off the ground and it got shot up pretty badly and it crashed just just inside our lines, but we all got out of it and then they send me to mash station and they sold me up and then they sent me to the hospital which I stay for a few weeks and then getting ready to go back to the Squadron.

06:24 Tell me know I wasn't allowed to go back because if you were shot down in enemy territory, cuz they had the airplane and our names and everything and you weren't we weren't allowed to go back. So then they send me to feed headquarters in Tokyo, which I gave lectures to new pilots that came in every time the fighter pilots came in. I would give him lectures and that lasted about a year and after that that was sent back to the United States where I went to Fort Bragg and trained other other Pilots how to do this job and

07:02 That's about the end of the story. You want to ask questions. Did you want to go back to Korea? I thought I was supposed to go back down when they told me. I didn't have to go back. It didn't disappoint me and I was just as happy to go to Tokyo on in FIFA headquarter. And what was life like in Tokyo it was wonderful. We lived in a some for Japanese Millionaire's mansion and we ever since we were in scapin evasion. Everything was very secret and we had servants and we lived a wonderful life for a year.

07:42 Any more questions than they made you go back to the states after a year, then they sent me back to Fort Bragg North Carolina where I trained other pilots and infantry officers had to do this job. And then then from there they sent me up to New Castle Delaware to fly. B-26 is and I stayed there for about I think I've got there about a year there and then the TWA the airline came by looking for pilots and I got out and became a pilot and flew for TWA for 35 years and I flew the last 10 years. I put a 747 which was a wonderful airplane from New York to Europe.

08:22 Did you ever get to him we ever scared of flying after crashing? No out of Rome and a full load full fuel for passengers a hot day and we had an engine fire on takeoff just as we lift it off and we had a good flight engineer who dumped the fuel immediately unfortunately over a little town called lost you and I'm sure they smell kerosene for a few weeks and then we came around and got around and landed and got the fire out and everything turned out fine, but it was certainly frightening when you lose an engine on takeoff, especially of fire, which you can lose your wing. I was very happy to get on the ground.

09:08 And the other one that I had was out, we're about 30 West from going from Shannon to New York and they called us up and said that we had a bomb on poor and that was about an hour and a half back to Shannon and I said well, okay then eat the other information I said that about when this bomb is supposed to go off and he said yes, it supposed to go off in about an hour or less about where an hour and a half away from Shannon, LOL. That's the way it is. And so when the hour came up you can believe that I was very worried about the whole thing. Fortunately the bomb didn't go off and we got back to Shannon. They searched the airplane. It was no bomb anyway, and I was about the only exciting things that ever happened to me in with the airline.

09:58 Do you like being a pilot? Oh, well, you know if I had finished College what what I've done, you know, at least gave me a gave me a job the rest of my life if I had stayed in college. I would have been equipped to do nothing teach school maybe.

10:16 What was life like as a pilot is wonderful. I mean the flying school was was a great experience and really learned a lot and it was all interesting and then I have all that we had one incident when I went to I went from 86 is to be 25 for training and on my first solo flight. There were two Cadets myself and a flight engineer. Who was the sergeant is my first solo trip. We lost an engine just just about a few miles away from the field but having never had this happen before it was a Chinese fire drill and the poor Sergeant. I thought he was going to have a heart attack and we were supposed to land on the 1st Runway. We got too and we weren't ready by that time and but by the time that there's two parallel runways at 3:40 by the time we got there turn down and it all came out while I was there.

11:16 Is easy to land any way that was light so it worked up one and I was about the only really

11:22 Bad things that I remember happening to me when you were in flying school you did, you know, you're going to Korea or no to Japan and I was there in a Troop Carrier outfit. I see 54 outfit and I thought this is going to be wonderful. But as soon as the Korean War started they came around and found all those second lieutenants who who knew how to fly to 6 is because this Forward Air controller, that's the only airplanes I had and so they asked for volunteers and at that point, I thought that was a good idea and so I volunteered for it and went over there and after about the 25th Mission I found this is not a very good idea and I finished 50 missions in that got shot down on the 51st mission.

12:13 How many were you supposed to do?

12:16 Well, they didn't have a set number at that time. And but I was about at the end. I think I would have probably gotten out of there, you know about 60 or 70 something like that. We did one every day. So I didn't take really long dick to do that. And it but the only problem was it was so cold we lived in tents. That was the worst part. I was happy to get in the airplane to the airplane had a heater in it and these tents that we had one little pot belly stove down at the end of the barracks. And if you add the new guys always got the other end of the barracks and finally you got seniority seniority enough to move up a little bit near the stove, but it was cold.

12:57 And fortunately these infantry officers. The Air Force was not equipped to go to this war and the Infantry I when I got there I didn't have a park or anyting so George my infantry officer who flew with me went back to his Squad and got me a parka and I don't know how they got them out and asked him but they brought back park is in and got us all the clothing we needed to go on these missions and he also went to town and had an iron plate that we just fit in your seat. So if you got shot in the bottom and the bullets wouldn't go through the iron plate and that was a good idea and we carried our own plate around everywhere. Everybody was looking for one. That didn't have one.

13:43 Any other questions? Yes.

13:51 Live question how how high up were you that day at a hundred feet?

13:59 About a hundred feet in the air this infantry officer. I flew with his band intermittent to get us killed. I'm sure the whole time he wanted to fly down the street and look in the windows to see if any storefront to see if there were any armored vehicles or anyting play if they would do that. They would just drive right into a storefront where you can see them from the air. And as a matter of fact the first day I was there I was at a thousand feet and joy said what are we doing up here on so will you know what we supposed to do? He said we're supposed to go down to the ground and find things.

14:33 I said well hello. Do you want to go any such as low as you can get it? And I said this guy definitely going to get a skill and might he embarrassed me so bad that I had to do it and and his weight. He had a Tommy Gun and as we went down the street if he saw anything in there, he would shoot out the window with his Tommy Gun. I think I was really

14:57 Hey Ben, on the 7th Cavalry in the Battle of the Bulge and these guys were they were I mean there were there were different.

15:04 What kind of things did he shoot at?

15:08 Anything it will if he saw a truck in the end, it's your front if he saw a truck in the storefront, he would shoot at the truck as we went by.

15:17 Did you carry parachutes? Yeah. Oh, yeah, but I was too low I couldn't have jumped out if I'd wanted to I was only about a hundred feet and I only got the airplane up to cuz the engine quit that's all I got the airplane up to about five hundred feet and crashed into the rice paddy, which was a couple miles away from this column.

15:41 Can you just talk about what was what was going through your mind as you crashed what you were thinking about? Well, I wasn't thinking about anything. I mean at that point, I'm just thinking about getting the airplane on the ground without you know, some safe place to land without getting the airplane torn up and it but there just wasn't any place except these rice patties and that they were flat and if if the airplane hadn't been you know there with the rice paddy was so small that they are playing with their they're Dykes all around rice paddy. So we ran into a dike and that was it up and then after we got out of the

16:19 Got into the ditch. All I was worried about was getting out of there and how we were going to get out and fortunately we had airplanes with us that were really giving us a lot of help and we had some Navy ades which is an airplane with 111 Engine That Could carry more Armament than a B-17 could during the during the World War II and they stayed around the whole time. I had they were the Navy planes and the Air Force airplanes were jet that could only stay about 15-20 minutes, but they kept we had we had some of my mosquito Squadron people that came and directed fire for us and that was a good operation every I mean everybody was helping everybody else.

17:04 Were you in pain when you in the ditch?

17:07 I don't remember if I was I was I probably in shock. I don't remember whether it was in pain or not.

17:14 How bad was your injury well about half your scalp was torn back on the back of your head and he pulled it all down and it didn't bleed that much though, and I don't remember feeling anything. I don't remember any pain at all.

17:35 Can you do?

17:36 The diction what was around you and what it looked like well a rice Patty is a flat place that surrounded by dikes Witcher water in these Dykes where they can irrigate the rice and and they're probably only about maybe 10 or 15 Acres a piece and I hit probably about the middle of 1 and didn't have too far to go before we hit the deck and when we hit the dike, I don't remember anything. I was blacked out after that. And the first thing I remember is George.

18:14 Trying to get me out of the airplane cuz I was on knocked unconscious and he wasn't and

18:20 He got meme I don't know it would probably only a minute or two and he got us out. He got me out. We got into this Ditch Witch was right by the dike we hit and there was a it was about a o I don't know. How did yards along the ditch and it was pretty deep. So it was no way that they left they got out there that they could any enemy firewood would hit us.

18:43 What time of the year was it when you crash it was a January 1950?

18:47 Early, January

18:50 What was the weather?

18:51 It was snow a lot of snow on the ground and was very cold.

18:56 So what?

18:59 Oh, well, we were wearing parkas and they were they were very warm. I mean no. I don't know being cold at all.

19:08 You too worried about your head.

19:11 Oh, yes. I was very worried about my head cuz I couldn't see out of one eye and I didn't know what that meant. And so what they had to do they had to pull that the skin from the eye up to the skin of the head and so it up and unfortunately, it was a mash station and they didn't get my they didn't get it symmetrical in one eyebrow. It is taller than the other if you noticed so then and it was two back when I got back to the hospital in Japan. They did already healed up by that time so they didn't do anything.

19:45 Did you and George talk about anything while you were in the ditch to pass the time or the way we were talking about what we're going to do and and we were still arguing about George wanting to fight them. But did you say that end of the ditch where the affect the fighting and I'm going the other end of the ditch witch is a surrender again and he's going to kill us. Anyway. I said will George I don't know that I like to bet and I think my eyes are better up there but still writing about that when the when the helicopter got there. I didn't even have to know. Well we have been dead if we had I would say that's the closest thing to a miracle that you could get into and get out of there was no way to get out of it, except it. Just we just were lucky they not normally have helicopter is available to oh no, they always had them but there's nobody would come in there this friend of mine. I don't know why he came in here. He he volunteered to come and try to get us and

20:45 If I hadn't seen him till last year there in a pile reunions and his wife came up to me and said I want you to know that you always almost got my husband killed and I said well maybe but I'll tell you he saved me and then they didn't I hadn't seen him for a 50 years since 1949 and 1950 anyway.

21:05 And it was a nice reunions. What year did you run into his wife?

21:10 What year did you run into his wife last year and a reunions? We had a we have a pilot's 49a Pilots you and I are reunions every year and I hadn't been to one in a long time and I went to that one cuz it was in as in up in North Florida. And then they had one at Tampa which I went to what what's 49 a that was a class class class of 49 on 1949. That means you were in the 1949 flying school and a with the first class in 49.

21:44 And that was at San Angelo, Texas and it was a we were the first class there after the war and the ranchers and the people were very friendly to us. They used to give a big barbecues and it was a wonderful place to go to flying school cuz it was flat and the weather was good out there. This was the first class after World War II.

22:10 So while you were down there with George was there ever a moment when you thought it was hopeless like you thought like you wouldn't get out. No never I don't know why but I always thought we would get out, but I didn't know how but I never felt that I never felt that things were over.

22:27 Why don't you think you felt that? I don't know. I just I think that's the way you feel it when you're in a war you feel you'll never get hurt. And when you get hurt your field you're going to get out of it. And I felt that we were going to get out. Even if we got captured. I thought we were going to get out but I knew we weren't going to get out of George fought them. That's why you wanted this and who knows they may have been friendly. They might have just taken his friends know, you know.

22:52 What was the rule what were you supposed to do?

22:55 For the weather if you know whatever it was prudent.

23:00 Are you allowed to surrender?

23:05 Why didn't George want to do that? Because George was a maniac that expression. George was the bravest human being I've ever met in my life. He was afraid of nothing.

23:18 And I guess being through the Battle of the Bulge in getting out of there. He felt that way but and he wanted to he one of the job done right and he made me do the job. Right or I might have if I had had somebody that didn't want to fly that low. I probably would have been very happy with him. But georgism. I admire him more than anyone I've ever known.

23:42 He was a cowboy from Montana.

23:48 Did you have any other?

23:51 No, I got was the only one that I know of. I know he had been through the Battle of the Bulge, but I can you could just tell when you met him that he wasn't afraid of anything which service was in he was in 7th Cavalry. Infantry Marine Corps. Army. General Custer was in Gary Ln and Glory.

24:15 And you were in the in the Army Air Corps and he has since I was in the in the Air Force and Army Air Force at the time.

24:26 I think it it just changed of the Air Force by that time.

24:29 Just about the time. I got a flying school date. They changed it from the Army Air Force to the Air Forces. We got new uniform.

24:39 How old was

24:41 George was I think as I remember he was 32 I was about 22.

24:48 And how long were you were you down there before the helicopter? Shut up about 3 hours. If I recall just about 3 hours. It was the helicopter came in just before it got dark.

25:00 So you were there you're waiting for 3 hours right after you crashed.

25:06 And I can you describe that and what that moment was like when the helicopter came I probably thought that was the best moment of my life when I saw that helicopter come down and I said I don't believe it but he's here and let's get on it and I never thought we get out because as soon as he landed they started shooting at them and the airplane got hit several times and knock the glass out where he was sitting and we had two more or less had to have emergency landing as soon as we got back to our lines because it wasn't flying correctly. You had two crashes in one day there was a crash but if we had to land because an emergency landing

25:48 And the

25:49 So George Newson the lieutenant Moore Lieutenant Moore saved my life.

25:55 All right lives anyway.

25:58 So they wouldn't normally send a helicopter now because it in a case like that. It's so bad that they wouldn't tell him but you'd have to volunteer to do that.

26:07 And why he volunteered I don't know, but he wasn't that good a friend. I just knew a minnow.

26:14 Did you ever get a chance to thank thank him last year last year. We had a pilot reunions and he was there and that was when his wife came up and said I want to know you almost got my husband killed him.

26:29 Did he say anything to you? Oh, yeah, we had we had great we had dinner together and I bought his dinner and we had a very nice tree and it was a three-day reunions in Tampa and which I could not children the Columbia Restaurant which is a great Cuban restaurant in Tampa. And there's a part of Tampa's its place call Ybor City, which is all the old Cuban cigar factories were there and they have still have a very famous Cuban restaurant there that I took him to

27:03 How many years after?

27:06 How long has it been since you seen him since he pick me up?

27:12 That was a 1950 and this was last year.

27:17 O been a long time.

27:20 And unfortunately, the reunions are getting smaller and smaller is only about a half hour class left out of how many were there at we have 200. There's about a hundred left.

27:33 When are all my age and we're all about the same age. They'll all be about 80 to now.

27:44 You said that you talk to younger Pilots after this happen? Yeah, I told this story that I'm telling you and I one thing. I told him I showed him my scar in my head was quite proud prevalent in those days. I said if I have been wearing a helmet this wouldn't have happened, but I was wearing a baseball cap and it's something to think about and

28:07 And I told the story why didn't you want to wear a helmet? I hated that helmet in the worst thing I've ever had on my head and the baseball cap was fun.

28:19 What what was on the baseball cap? What team was it to remember how it was just the air force on it. I think.

28:35 Do you have any other stories from from that time? You'd like to tell? No, that's that's the only ones I can think about that are worth telling.

28:44 Can you talk a little more about that time in Tokyo? Well, as I said we I guess that the Air Force, dear just Japanese mansion and we all had our own rooms and we had a staff of a shafts and Sergeant ran it and he ran the whole thing and it was like being a living in a hotel and it was very nice and we had our own cars we could use staff cars to go places and everyday if you wanted to go somewhere and and I only had to give that lecture about once a week and the rest of the time you were just on your own. What did you do in your spare time?

29:26 How to wander around Tokyo was it affordable then? Oh, yeah. Well, I mean it wasn't legal but we paid we paid everything we bought with cigarettes and you give a carton of cigarettes and you could almost have anything you wanted and I bought a lot of pearls and things like that. Nothing that that would have been smart for me to buy because at that time I was uneducated and antiques and didn't know much and I knew about pearls and I bought a lot of those

30:00 And unfortunately when I got back I was still single and funny they they all went to my girlfriend.

30:09 I lived here in New York in a rent-controlled apartment and up on Lexington and 79th Street. I had a wonderful apartment. It was a top two floors were Brownstone with three fireplaces and the rent was $175 a month.

30:26 I kept it for 20 years.

30:30 How long were you away?

30:34 In the enlisted how long I went and I went and in 1949 and I got out of 1953. Do you remember what it was when I got out you me? Well. I got out and came back to New York and and when I went to TW away and they sent me the Kansas City for a month for their school. If you are a few an airline pilot, do you have to go to their school for the month at that time? And we should they talked to you all their procedures and there are playing you had to go out to learn to fly. There are playing fortunately it was a convair 440 and it was a very much like a date at 8:26 that I had been flying and it was very easy for me at the time. So you got a job right when you got back home. I got the job before I got out.

31:27 They came around recruiting and I knew I could get out and so I said I want the job then they accept it at the time. I came to New York on the weekends and they gave me test at the hangar at Kennedy. And when I said you were hired then I told the Air Force I wanted to get out and that it took about a month to get out.

31:50 Him and the first year of flying with TWA was it was not much fun. You were on reserve you couldn't leave your apartment and I had to stay there you were on call and when you got it when I called you you had to go to from Houston fly at night from New York to Pittsburgh to Dayton to Columbus and turn around and come back and sometimes you do that three days a week and after the first year, I wasn't sure I wanted that job, but it's about that time. They got some openings on International they decided to put some more airplanes going to Europe that I got was able to get on that division as a co-pilot and I stay there the rest of my career which was wonderful. We used to fly to Paris and Rome Athens gyro Jada and all the way to Bombay.

32:42 Did you have much time in these countries are used to fly to DAR El Salam and we would have seven day layover there and that you could go on Safari. It was wonderful because it was only one flight a week. So if you fluid fluid fly like that with is one flight a week, you got to stay there till the whole wait till the next like it and it was a wonderful trip food that I only got to fly it about six times. And then another thing after that when I got back there was a man.

33:13 But in the Congo named wash on Bay and lumumba and they were kind of in charge as I remember of the Congo and then mr. Mobutu want to overthrow them and I was sent over there by the state department to fly in the Congo for 3 months flying oil from Stanleyville to leopoldville to which it concise and Johnny and mr. Mobutu got rid of lumumba and Moishe on Bay and he became the dictator and we backed him which he turned out to be one of the richest people in the anywhere from the money we gave them in and he was thrown out a few years ago.

33:59 My somebody else but that was interesting in the Congo because what did you see in the Congo? Well, we had we stayed in and leopoldville which is a nice town and the first day we got there. He hung a few of his opposition to lampus.

34:16 And I hate when he took out he was a sergeant in the Army is I recall and he was with real and just became a dictator after that in and the end the United States back to him cuz he was our friend at that time.

34:31 And I did that for about I think three or four months and then and then that was over and I came back and we were working for the state department and we were flying oil from one one of them from one city to the other.

34:46 What went from what city to what city from leopoldville to Stanleyville?

34:57 1953

35:01 1978

35:04 And what was the city like the wonderful? It was a wonderful city to live in in those day.

35:11 We had we had this store club and if it if you would Sherman Billingsley probably never heard of this. But anyway, the store Club was a place to go in those days and Mister Billings beloved girl. So I had a friend of mine a person who was the bartender there and he told me one time he said why don't you get a couple of flight attendants and bring them over here and I'll get you in the store Club. I said, I can't afford that and he said you won't cost you anything. So I called a couple of flight attendants and tell them about it. They said yeah, we'd like to go so I used to do that and there was always free and then Mister Billings they got in a big fight with unions and shut the store Club down.

35:53 And that was I in that was in the

35:57 How it must have been a 1958 or something like that to do you make a lot of friends when you moved here. Oh, yeah, we had lots of used to go out to I went I met a man here who was an actor and he and we got along well together and we went to far Island on weekend seeing his girlfriend and and like I went along with him and we got to know a lot of people and then after that we went to The Hamptons the rest of the time and I bought a house out in quogue and that was a wonderful life out there as long as we were there.

36:33 Unfortunately, I sold it for $100,000 and the house next to me just sold for $950,000 and they tore it down.

36:45 That was not a good thing to do. I could have rented that the whole time that then I was middle in Florida. Remember we move to Florida because we had the farm down there. Give me about you remember the farm.

37:02 And my wife has never forgiven me for selling that house and go out and the farm prose form. I had a big Orange Grove and it froze and died. Then I put cows on it and you won't became vegetarian and she would let me sell the couch. So I got rid of the cows and then I rented the play.

37:21 And I had a $2,000 bull's name Stonewall that I had to give away.

37:26 Why did you have to give away the whole cuz no one would buy them and I don't know what I'd want to soundproof. She didn't want wouldn't let me sell him from be if I had to give them to a Friendly Farmer who would keep him.

37:37 And that was the end of the farm.

37:46 While you were serving that you'd like to share.

37:51 Well

37:52 It seems to me the lessons were that we didn't go there to fight for our country. We went there because we were young and thought it was a wonderful thing to do and when we got there, we just fought for each other our group and there was no thought about whether it was a good thing for those Communists or that sort of thing and we never thought at my age. I never even thought about that all I thought about was all the guys I was flying with and we did our job and there was nothing talking about why we were there real

38:31 And then later on I got as I got older. I was wanting a good thing. Anyway, I didn't think

38:38 The Korean War I don't think there was any wars or worthwhile except maybe World War II?

38:52 I think that's about it.

38:55 Well, thank you.