Mary Ann Zimmerman-McKinney and Jonathan McKinney

00:04 My name is Mary Ann Zimmerman McKinney. I was born in 1942 in New York City at Mary Immaculate Hospital in Jamaica Queens. And today is November 20th 2008 and it's my birthday.

00:27 We are talking I'm we are recording this at the storycorps booth in Foley Square in New York City down by city hall and I'm going to be talking to my son Jonathan about the recent election of Barack Obama.

00:53 My name is Jonathan McKinney. I made it to 27 born August 19th 1981 at Mount Sinai Hospital in Upper Manhattan. Today's date is November 20th 2008. We are located Foley Square, New York New York and my relationship to my mother is her son.

01:17 So I think we're going to start off with my mom.

01:20 This election that was held on November 4th is just an extraordinary event. I think in the country's history and it's very hard to put it into words. But I am I want to try with Jonathan and talk to him about what the election means to him and how he's experienced it.

01:49 So my first question to you Jonathan is you my recollection is that you've been interested in politics since the second grade?

01:59 And I'd like to know if you have the same recollection. And if so, what what is it that interested you then and what is it that engages you now?

02:14 I certainly do remember being interested in politics to a degree when I was 7 years old that was mostly in part to my second grade teachers creating an atmosphere around which we follow the bush Dukakis race for the White House in 1988.

02:41 I guess my fascination with politics is simply it's a game of power, but it's still a game and to me that's just something about that is not trivial clearly, but there's something a little bit unreal about how people pursue power and then what that power really means. So I guess it really comes down to watching people clamor for power and then what it really means to everyone and I feel at some point soon means a lot to the individual and at some points it really doesn't a person in power is just a figurehead sometimes and other times I really do affect change down to the very very people that are supposed to be represented by it such as this past eight years. I think everyone was adversely affected and this was an instance where it really did make a difference for everyone who was elected but I think in Prior elections less

03:35 Irealtyedge person in more sort of a something for people to look towards Nikon of sorts with less less affecting years old and in the second grade, I remember that you picked Bush to win and your father and I were astonished about that because we thought we had brought you up better than the highs and but you explain to us that you picked him to win because you thought that he was the one who was going to win and not because he really liked him. I didn't pick him to win. I pick that he would win. I'm a betting person as you know, so I like to sometimes, you know, the risk reward is in play. I didn't want him. I wanted to talk with Michael Dukakis. What is our house our candidate? But at the same time, I guess it's being a seven-year-old a fairly practical about certain things and that's one of the things that I should have saw as cut-and-dry Bush was going to win I was rooting for him.

04:35 For the record know that I want that one in our family, we are divided politically my family anyway in terms of party and I before Obama

04:56 What Drew you to the Democratic party over the Republican Party are selfishly driven. I think they're more for the person, not for the good of the community and society which I think is the principles upon which government should actually act which way to go to the people in Idaho as a whole night individually. I also think a lot of things they stand for contradictory and terms of their more recent turn to the right in terms of them social social policies, like allowing people to for abortion and things like stem cell research things about pro-life pro-choice. So on and so forth. So I think that fundamentally they are off base or I have touch with what it really means to Governor Society. I think the Democratic Party

05:51 With its flaws strives to strive to protect the common good of everyone or most most people the majority. So I think it's been cut and dry my entire life and I think it has to do with you and dad also being social workers and to a great degree sacrificing your personal time and energy and effort to help better portion of society that may not have you banished has that other people do so, I think it has a lot to do with my praying and Saint Anne's as well as a very sore if Democratic style libertarian if you will but libertarian with constraints in that they wanted to make sure that no one was being offended by anyone else to action for the same time. They wanted you to feel like you had I'm going to start out of me as possible agency over what you did so we should clarify that when you refer to sentence you talking about the school that you would

06:51 Ended in Brooklyn from kindergarten through 12th grade.

07:01 What is it about Barack Obama that engaged to?

07:09 What was it? What is it about him that you and other young people in line with its appears to be his cultural ideas and who he is and we have a can Davis 40 some-odd years old versus one who is pushing seventy something generally speaking. It's going to be easier to identify with the younger one for one. The second thing would be he's probably the most charismatic translate we've had in a long time and not present elect in his way of delivering information speeches as well as way carries himself, you get a sense that it's in line. What he does publicly is in line with what he does privately. You haven't seen that the candidate a long time, you know that usually putting on a show when they step in front of cameras vs. When they're behind closed doors.

08:04 So that in itself and I also believe that he is quite an intelligent person and at the same time, I haven't believed clearly at the present the past eight years has been called intelligent and fact, I believe I'm more intelligent than he is and I don't believe that my leader should be more ahead of the game or less less ahead of the game and I am I think of Barack Obama is certainly a few steps ahead of me in many ways was Barack, although I would love to but I did I don't need to have a beer with rock to see him as someone who could leave my country in the right direction. Certainly. He's been he is been the factor that really engaged you his integrity and and his intellect. Do you see yourself continuing to be engaged by politics?

08:54 Oh, yeah, why not? I mean even more so now because I believe that much of what I see now, it's back and learn from not Sunday night that I have poor or something. I look at 4, comedic SEC which is unfortunate that we can laugh at what our leaders do I really feel like there's something to be learned from watching this Administration. How's it going forward and now more so than 8 years ago as with a container, which is now twelve years ago as well as 12 to 16. I didn't I wasn't old enough completely to I think analyze everything that was going down in administration. I didn't have no more of a position to use history and my understanding of politics and current affairs to make more informed decisions or conclusions about what this Administration is going to do. So, I'm certainly be more in tune with politics now than I think I ever have in terms of being an observer wanted to engage

09:54 Tonight is done our job. This is good.

10:00 Weird does Dad's fit into all of this for you. I know I thought about him a lot whole during the campaign is certainly on Election night. Book. Where does he fit in for you?

10:19 Sorry to question. Where does he fit in? Where does he fit in shoes more appropriate I think.

10:27 I don't know. I look to I looked to him for guidance when I was younger. It was more of a just sort of following roll. Not that I felt like I needed to seek his guidance and things so

10:41 How high would have sort of interact with him during the selection afterwards?

10:46 Is certainly something to think about but what I do know is that he was active in the Civil Rights Movement to a degree with sit-ins counter sit-ins and them and in doing to passive resistance campaigns and being aware and

11:06 Part of my reasoning for my reason for going down this past election cycle to help knock on doors and canvas for Barack Obama in Miami. Florida was to help fulfill. I think part of what my father's wish would have been or at least to this quest to see more equality in our society. I'm in being from Miami my dad being from Miami it made sense that it was her come full circle that I would go back to the place where he was born to try and help not to say finish but close a chapter on something that would have been clearly. I'm a Mentos event for him to have seen and is it must have been for America before him to have seen?

11:48 So in that way, I feel like I am fulfilling some kind of quest on helping carry the torch that he otherwise

11:57 Would have been carrying himself so that way I do I do believe that he has influenced me in that respect. I may not have gone down to Miami to knock on doors if it wasn't for my understanding of what he had done in probably what would stand for if you were alive today.

12:13 Dallas weather the major questions that I had for you. Do you have questions for me?

12:26 Yeah, of course. He's going to be on topic the topic of Barack Obama and the and the this past election cycle.

12:35 My first question begins with them was there a point. I know that you know you if we had our debates in the house about supporting Hillary in for rock. And of course, I was Barack and you were for Hillary and on the surface. It's sort of means, you know, you're an older white woman course he go for Hillary. I'm a younger black man are younger mixed biracial child young man? And so I request actually go For Broke medley. That was just it. I think we actually had the ideological differences on what we supported besides a gender and race to the candidate. So with that in mind,

13:14 Was there a point at which you viewed Barack Obama or when was the point of which you if you'd Barack Obama as a more culturally significant figure than Hillary Clinton as the first president or another words. Was there a point at which you saw him being maybe more culturally significant to America then say Hillary is the first one of President appointed which I was able to be really actively supportive of Obama vs. Hillary Clinton. I know what you bring up a good point on the surface. It's as if that I'm I'm looking in terms of race and gender be knowing that you are too but actually that never occurred to me. I I think that Hillary Clinton

14:09 Service to the country has been extraordinary and that it's her life.

14:14 And then we'll can book continue to be public service is what she she's about and I always admired her for the issues. She took on I admired her for her efforts to bring Healthcare.

14:29 Two people who didn't have health care and her her conviction which turned out to be not not quite as so.

14:38 As correct. She thought that she would be able to provide this healthcare plan to the whole country and I don't think she ever anticipated the backlash she would get on it, but she continued she persevered with it and you knew from her speeches during the campaign that it was a very important issue. So I felt I always admired Obama. I read the book that he wrote about five must have read that book maybe five years ago and then four years ago was very impressed with him wasn't that I didn't think he would be a very good candidate for president, but I felt that Hillary Clinton had earned.

15:22 An earned being the party's nominee and that if she did not run for president now should never have another opportunity and it was kind of heartbreaking for me because I actually not only

15:39 Respected and admired her positions on issues. I admire her so it wasn't that I was supposed to Obama in any way I just felt it was her time and is it turned out it wasn't and so when she was not the candidate and when she gave that wonderful speech.

16:04 Encouraging all of her supporters to think, you know, don't don't do this for me do this for the country support Obama. It wasn't hard for me to

16:19 To say he's my guy because I'm just very I am very impressed with him.

16:25 Now that Obama is the president elect.

16:30 How do you look upon the situation do you is there some part of you that sees let's just take it from a cultural standpoint. Is there some point that sees Obama as being

16:41 I haven't broken a more significant barrier or less so than Hillary Clinton would have being the first one president decide ever factor into sort of your reflection now on what is taking place?

16:55 I think the election of a black.

17:00 Man, a black person is is truly an extraordinary Milestone and you know in the country's history and I think that yes, I think his selection and the ramifications of it and his

17:21 His activities as president what he pursues his president is is probably going to be more significant than what Hillary Clinton would have brought so hindsight I am

17:38 Astonished and related and actually filled with hope that Barack Obama is the president elected.

17:49 I think that.

17:55 I think

17:57 That we will through him become a country of citizens with leadership that

18:06 Cares about what happens to all the people and

18:12 That we will be ready to ready and able to address problems and to really seriously look at the ramifications of them ice. I think this is an extraordinary opportunity for the country and I think Obama has been it's Brave him and his family to take this on and I really am full of Hope about what what we can address together. I don't know what's going to be resolved. But I have the sense and I had it the day after the election when I was sitting on the subway and everybody looked as if they were just half asleep or drugged or something and I thought it will be full been up all night. That's why but I also think there was something more to it. I think that

19:03 It's we know this is a serious.

19:06 Venture and we all have to participate in it. So it wasn't the day after I didn't see people dancing in the streets like they were the night before and I thought that's appropriate people should be serious and we should be thinking about how we're going to work as Citizens. How bomb is going to work is the president and I think that he will in a way that I don't remember a president in a long time doing that. He will use the Constitution.

19:41 As the tool to do what has to be done and he's going to take a note that says I I swear to preserve protect and defend the Constitution and I think it's about time we started paying attention to it again.

20:01 I guess we've been response to origin Edition to your question about how

20:09 How my father how dad played into my sort of my perception of this of this campaign and Barack Obama being elected?

20:18 His question for you about that.

20:22 Do you try to imagine Dad's reaction to this event if you were still with us?

20:29 And if you do, what do you imagine some of those reactions to be?

20:36 Of course, I do. I mean I've thought a lot about a lot of Baghdad during the campaign and and how he would have reacted to it. I I'm sure.

20:53 That he would have been quietly profoundly satisfied.

21:01 I don't think he would be gloating who know about it. I think that it would just decided to action that he would draw from it would be.

21:12 Would be simple and profound and I just wish he were here to to have experienced it I am.

21:20 I think about him and his life in Miami. He was he grew up in Miami in the 1940s in the 1950s and that was a time when

21:36 People in Florida and Miami whereas enthusiastically supporting Jim Crow laws and discrimination against black people as anywhere in the Deep South

21:52 And he experienced that I'm sure he experienced it on a daily basis.

22:01 When is he said he?

22:07 He was very committed to it was very committed to fairness and Justice and I don't think that he ever and I don't know why this is but I don't think that he ever.

22:20 Allowed to bigotry that he experienced to practice bigotry against the bigots. That's not how he responded. I think I'm

22:35 He felt the people were all equal and he treated people that way wasn't on the basis of race.

22:45 I know that he is. He said he sat in at lunch counters in the South to to demonstrate in the 1950s late 50s early 60s, and yes he

23:01 He was part of the March on Washington with Martin Luther King is one of those thousands and thousands and thousands of people he he was a supporter of black power.

23:16 But not Scan Power minted. Well black power was a movement in the 70s and the 80s and he was definitely no part of part of that. But again, I never ever heard him and all the time we were married and all the time I knew him.

23:38 To ever say anything about a person's race or gender. He I never heard him Express make a tree and words and I really think that he didn't have it. So it was important to him to be.

24:00 To be fair and open and people were drawn to him because some things because they sensed this integrity and also because he was very good at letting us talk our heads off and he said nothing and he understood how important that was two people. So I just think he was an extraordinary person in the whole campaign in the election. Just brought it all back. How is that going to degree of Barack Obama embodies some of those core values in the sense that he is willing to listen and and and and not judge on these these these arbitrary measure. She's only going to judge and make appropriate decisions according to the situation and what the situation brings to Bear not outside influence.

25:00 That are created by Fiserv old ideas are ideas that don't have much of an influence on this particular moment. Whatever the moment might be.

25:11 Yeah, I think I think Obama reminds me of dad. And in many ways actually, he's a good for you. But so if an addition to that question now, so and I don't know. Have you received any unexpected correspondence from Friends regarding the election of Obama?

25:40 Most likely because you had been married to Dad you had a relationship with an African American black man, especially in the time that you began to have this relationship with your friends around, you know, I took notice have any of them or anybody that you didn't expect to call call you.

26:01 Well, of course, most of my friends think the way I do, you know, the political affiliations are are just Liberal Liberal Liberal his toe. I sometimes think we could I ever like a republican, but then I think that Dad and I think of course I couldn't I must know so I'm not sure.

26:22 So what was the question do you have friends who have so come out of the woodwork and they may have called you for one reason or another but potentially at the core of it all is because they see that I dented their understanding identities as having been married to a black man.

26:44 Is captured in the the a card that I got from?

26:50 One of my friends who lives in California, we were high school the best friends in high school. And while I don't see her very much hardly at all week. We kind of keep in touch and she wrote and she said did you ever think that when we were in high school and that that we would be celebrating such an outcome of an election now that doesn't it seem absolutely impossible and wonderful, and she even thanked me for thanking me for I guess I suppose for being married to Dad's. She was she was happy to connect with that and I was happy that she made the connection know so

27:36 I think that many people are happy about the outcome and I hope many more people will be.

27:45 At what seems like this is a decent topic to continue on at least using dad is the fundamental underpinning of it.

27:55 Your marriage Sudan 1975 was was a kind of social coup of sorts or at least it was it was on The Fringe of being considered taboo. That's for sure. I wasn't but what 10/10 13-month 10-12 years before that then Lyndon B Johnson had begun to sort of Equalization of of of rights, which included the marrying of cross across racial lines. I'm in Lawton and 13 to 14 States As I understood it was the legal up and tells me like 19637 / 64

28:28 I'm so do you find yourself feeling more attached to this ongoing racial civil rights movement because although you are a white woman from a particular socioeconomic position privileged home when you were younger.

28:48 Do you think you have been a part of the of this cultural movement now to a degree after you think you see yourself in any point having further some of this understanding and acceptance of racial racial issues in America?

29:11 I don't I don't think of I don't think of my relationship with Dad representing that although I of course it does.

29:27 I I think the background that I came came from.

29:32 It is in the northeast. Of course. I'm on that kind of liberal car door, but my family certainly my father was a very conservative Republican, but I think that is

29:45 Can sound a little strange?

29:49 I just fell in love with Dad and he fell in love with me and we didn't I don't think ever discuss the role that race might play, you know, the obstacles. I I he very quietly helped me to see how on a daily basis as he experienced discrimination.

30:12 But I came from a privileged background and is as as my aunt Muriel commented one day. She said, you know, we white people we're so arrogant. And of course is it was a kind of arrogance in my sense that will I want to do this. So, of course I'm going to do it and it really was Dad transcended race. I mean, I knew he was a black man, but it wasn't that it was the dominant thing. It was his it was his sole of his heart and his intellect know that I am that I fell in love with son. He was the best person

30:51 The best man I had ever met and I wanted to marry him but it wasn't that simple. You know, I did have to think about it and it may have been a day that I spent agonizing over but I don't know the reasons for it, but I just didn't really think about race is a barrier because nobody had ever denied me anything before I couldn't imagine anybody denying me that you didn't see it as a

31:22 Almost as you helping to perpetuate something in an endless, even if it were episode 1 opening kind of movement that did you see yourself part of yeah. Did you see yourself part of a movement in a positive sense? Probably because we lived in New York and New York is a very different place from much of the rest of the country. So no I didn't I didn't see either of us is being pioneering and and I knew a couple of people who are in an interracial marriage, but again, I just think about it that much.

31:56 I subsequently and I'll tell you if we have time about an incident that I I don't think I've ever told to anybody.

32:10 The night you were born.

32:12 When I went into labor we decided that we would not take our car to the hospital because Dad would have to drop me at the hospital and you have to park the car. And so he said we're going to take a cab and it was like 2 in the morning and we went out onto 3rd Avenue and 92nd Street, and I was. I was could hardly walk and mm.

32:39 I was standing on the curb next to a telephone pole or something like that and dad went into the street to hail a cab.

32:48 And no cap with stop for him.

32:53 181 New York City past but that was funny. And so I realized that no cab was going to stop for an even though he was dressed perfectly well, and so I stepped off the curb and I stood next to him and the next cavi hailed stopped.

33:15 So that made a big impression on me. And you know, I know I had asked him one day how often do you experience discrimination and Prejudice? You know, it's everyday everyday and I I was I did trial to see things through his eyes because

33:40 The kind of discrimination he experienced I would not even be looking for or notice, you know, so necessarily.

33:55 Believe are true until there's are proven to be true.

34:00 But do you think that kind of situation that scenario in which they say a black man is passed upon the street by a cab. I need serve a white woman that has pretty good time and play some 2 to have that the next can't stop you think some of those actions are going to be changed by having a

34:23 A black president as a figurehead to think is that mean is there a way you can to begin to describe how that may or may not happen or even extrapolate on it? Think about it. Thanks act Barack Obama and his wife and his children are going to be

34:44 They're going to knock down some barriers clearly the the the the die-hard biggest are never going to be influenced by that don't understand it or even see it, but I think for a lot of America.

35:04 His his election, but more importantly what he does as president is certainly going to change. I think the way people perceive.

35:16 Others, you know the way but I think that's also changing for many of the reasons where we are much more Global country now than we were in 1981 and in 1967, and I think that fortunately we can't avoid being

35:35 Discarding some of these really irrational stupid barriers it seem to provide such protection for some people.

35:47 I agree. Are you helpful because do you experience?

35:54 Discrimination due to experience is because of your color.

36:01 Yes, I'm sure I do does it manifest itself in very easily?

36:09 Identifiable ways

36:11 Not as often as I think some other people do now, that's Part B party cuz the way I I view it the way I view myself in a few yourself in a certain way no matter what someone else how they treat you.

36:26 You have a certain understanding that they are opinion is not higher than yours. Your dear drunk me is not better than yours in the situation you're in, you know, if it's if you don't depend on that person that means from a story or not.

36:38 Has very little bearing if it doesn't affect you sort of psychologically. If you don't need them to do something then they're they're served discarding of you does not really concern you that much. I feel like I'm going to lose my life fairly independent of many people in this situation. So in that regard, I think I do experience it, but I don't personally experienced it cuz I don't really respond to it. But on the other hand sure, you know, clearly there is

37:07 I don't know if it's racism or bigotry that would exclude me from things but I'm sure people have particular perceptions about me before they meet me or talk to me or have some kind of a drag with me and then they're changed but the fact that they go through a process of change shows it to a degree at some point. They had some misconception and I don't know if you would classify that has race in Topeka today, whatever it might be but it is it is sort of Miss record.

37:37 Its it's a misunderstanding and I do believe there are more of those in my life and it would be safe. I were right by you know, the other works the other way to you know, I got getting into college and whatever Wesleyan University and I think they were they were the first one to but now it's any part of the reason they were the first one to send me back an acceptance letter. They sent it back really fast really quickly. And I think part of it was because of my culture and social makeup that actually got me the top of their stack not that I wouldn't have gotten in. Who knows right? But I think part of it had to do with the fact that I can for biracial family and the school I went to in the class I talk and you know someone so forth in the Gulf put together for them was that was like the perfect for them cuz they have this identity they want to perpetuate and I fit that mold for them. So that way it's for the reverse.

38:37 I guess we have one last question. I was more of an observation. So he had come to more recently and part of it is because of our family and I didn't know nothing so that three or four years ago that you know, half the family and sat around Thanksgiving table with you know, where Republicans I gave him a little more credit than that, I guess no disrespect Republican, but

39:07 But it also it's just a microcosm of I think we also the way that Long Island itself works and then going ounce but fairly conservative place and you growing up there and I've seen lots of reports that come out of Long Island. And this is likely I'm about Rachel Rachel Rachel Rachel disharmony people getting killed over it and I think the only thing I thought I was only ever called a Niger twice in my life once was in Providence and once was walking with you in Port Jefferson, New York Long Island, and I read so much about Long Island my one question to you is how

39:40 You know.

39:42 Did you ever did you ever encounter really isolated incidents of racism Beyond you know what you expect to see in the Northeast special so growing up, you know where you did Patchogue Patchogue just had a very very high-profile racial incident as well. So I came to understand that racial Prejudice is pervasive and deep in this country, which is why I always said I don't think Obama can ever be elected president. This country will never elect a black man as president, but I was wrong so no, I was aware that everywhere.

40:25 There's this and I was always proud of dad and I'm very proud of you because what you do is you require people to take you.

40:37 For yourself and you can get past the some of the barriers. I think that because you because you know how to speak to people you've got a basic respect for people you're willing and able to connect with them and I think that that goes a long ways to breaking down barriers but in terms of you nor did I realize there was the extent of this yes. Yes, and I don't I was with you and somebody called you a Niger not but I didn't hear it.

41:17 But I am proud of you. I'm really proud of some you know, how you've chosen to lead your life. You're perfect to me because you're not perfect and I love.

41:32 I'm happy to know you Jonathan McKinney work was.