Janet Kutner and Bryan Kutner

00:15 Brian Kutner 35, June 27th, 2009 Foley square and speaking with my mother

00:23 Janet Kutner 71 June 27th 2009 Foley Square New York City and I'm speaking with my youngest son Brian.

00:34 Okay. So my first question growing up, what did you imagine doing for work if there is something in particular that you imagine doing that I even thought about it until probably I was in college and then my major was English literature not hard and I guess I thought I was going to be a writer, you know, maybe write a wonderful novel. I really didn't have any ideas of what I would ride. I actually took a correspondence journalism course, which was kind of worthless, but it taught me how to submit manuscript what you did in those days. Then I wrote a couple of things and submitted them to read book. I don't know if that still exists sort of a popular, you know saying that probably mostly women and they were rejected and that's you know, I never

01:30 I can tell you how I got into my career. Actually, I have my uncle is he my mother's brother to thank for the fact that he nurtured my interest in our because nobody else in the family did the only painting in our house was in my parents house with a painting that they bought from someone who brought it over from Europe and buy a new person artist and it was pleasant painting but there was no other or anywhere around no posters. I think my parents took me to one Museum in my whole life to the Museum of Modern Art during the only trip. They took me to to New York City never to a Dallas Museum never to a gallery.

02:16 But my Uncle Buck was an amateur painter. He's the one who founded Jerry Orbach and he had money air conditioning. He brought air conditioning to Dallas. And so he had the Leisure to do what he wanted. He gone to Texas A&M which it was an engineering school, but they also taught a lot of draftsmanship, you know that there are a lot of Architects went to Texas A&M and so he just letting you know, probably when he was 50, I don't know how old start collecting art books seriously collecting our folks big expensive wonderful R12 and when I came home from Stanford, I think you remember that. I had to come home from Stanford after my second year partly to take care of mother who is sick, but partly ahead is bipolar but I think was really because my father couldn't control what I was doing out of Stanford, so I wasn't asking you I was very unhappy I was hanging out with people in the faculty.

03:16 Rather than people the students because I just felt everybody was so immature compared to people that stand for nobody asked questions. It was sort of us social school and every day after school if I wasn't with my friends, I would go over to Michael Aziz and sit in the study with him and have a drink and talk about art and read his art books and he brought any loan me his art books. And so when I finally was graduating from missing you and I had a degree in literature. I want to get a job and I kept threatening to go to New York and I was terrified I would have been terrified to come to you. By Max and I would have had no money because nobody would have helped me and so he took me around and introduced me to people he introduce me to somebody at the Dallas theater center, which is smarter. Yes to Dallas theater center Paul Baker. He introduced me to people at the Margo Jones Theater which in Dallas which is bigger the time.

04:16 And he took me and introduced me to a l Meadows who was very rich Oil Man sweet man, just like Uncle is he very mild-mannered, you know who was on the board of the Contemporary Museum the Dallas Museum for Contemporary Arts and I and he got me a job with another man Eddie Marcus at the Dallas Museum for Contemporary Arts as a volunteer and I started working there is a volunteer and it's kind of a long window Museum. The Contemporary Arts was at the fairgrounds right now where she was in a storefront on Northwest Highway right by Preston Center. We're at Abby's dance were later moved in and then they moved in some people bought a building on Cedar Springs near Turtle Creek and they moved into that the first floor of that building it. So I was there first on Northwest Highway just working as a volunteer than I think they start paying me a pittance and they hired a professional director for New York.

05:16 Douglas mccaig who was big time and they moved to the other location. And the first thing he did was hire me and he hired me my title originally was publicity director, but I would really was his assistant and that's where I learned. Oh my gosh, you know him and he gave me a reading list and he stuck with me to be sure I did that reading this fabulous thing on Modern to Contemporary Art and he gave me all these responsibilities at train the docents. I was in charge of the volunteers. I you know who's in charge of opening and closing with ladies. I pretty much was in charge of everything, you know in school and keeping people away from him in at the last time I drove him home and sat with him and his wife and had a vodka and then went to another person's house and had another vodka and and lunch and can't he took two hour lunches and we hung out with Paul Baker at the Dallas theater center, and it was just a crash.

06:16 Education and then that was that you know, and I got married I left that job but that museum by the way, just to give you an idea of what it how influential was we had the first class eldenburg exhibit store and happening outside of New York City. That's what I meant class Oldenburg for the first and and we had the first Magritte show in the country and we had maybe we shared that shower you at the same time. They want hit the Contemporary Museum in Houston did one that was Douglas his former wife great competitive, but still they did projects, you know and cannot competition kind of collaboratively. We did all kinds of things at that Museum. And so then I left the museum when I got married not it right after I got married, but Dad was mistakenly draft redraft and you really wasn't supposed to be in until he got out.

07:16 I was commuting back and forth to Leesville, Louisiana. So I came back for the Oldenburg show to help with that and then I left and they started that was when the museum the trustees got tired of not being able to control the director there and the museum merge with the Dallas Museum of Fine Arts in Fair Park. And that's why they saw one collection now our collection which includes a fabulous Matisse Ivy in flower collage all kinds of wonderful things not been collection, but a really good collection is now part of the Dallas Museum collection. And this was the sort of seed of Contemporary Art in Dallas which has now gotten really big and then I didn't have anything to do with art really except when we came back to Dallas, you know, I was still active in the museum just as you know, so he went but how long was it between when you left when you came back?

08:16 I think 18 other people out who were mistaken. And so when I came back knew I needed to earn some money and I just had my father had made me get teaching credentials for missing you so I did that and I did my student teaching a Haka today because that was the easiest thing that's where I graduated and and did student teaching in English and Spanish. So when I came back that the only way that thing I could think of to do right away to make some money was I started tutoring Spanish to Hockaday students after you already had this amazing career after my Contemporary Art thing I was 2 years or so and then and even three was probably too and so and then I had Julie and I had Jonathan and Jonathan I think was

09:16 4 years old

09:19 So that was a long day up there. When I sort of didn't you don't have anything really wonderful to do except take care of babies or you were married for two years. Then you had Julie than Jonathan. I was like almost eight years after we were getting ready to go on a fishing trip and I got a call from the Arts editor of the Dallas Morning News who asked me who said they needed an art critic in my name kept coming up would I be interested and I said, I don't know. I'm getting ready to leave town right away. And of course, I would I kept thinking no, I don't want to do that. I can't take a full time job. I've got these two little kids. And so I told him I'd call him back when I got back in on Monday and I told dad about it and the more I thought about it the more I thought you know, that sounds really interesting if I could do it on my own terms. So I ended up when I got back. I called him and told him that I'd have to work at home.

10:15 And so he offered me the position I could work at home. I could make a big $25 in article. I could write two to three articles a week. He would personally drive by and pick them up and take them down to the paper and I was like the Ghost Rider everybody kind of couldn't figure out who the hell I was in the paper. They didn't know me, you know, I was out there in the art world, but you know, they didn't tell her that those circles so, you know, it's kind of a joke. Anyway, I did that I did that and you and then gradually but I did tell them in the very beginning that I would do this. But only under the condition that they would pay something so that I could travel at least to go to New York because that was where the center of the art world and that I didn't want to just

11:15 From a very provincial point of view and so and they and the Dallas news had a really good reputation as a d cultural newspaper in the whole part of the country. Then there was someone named John Rosenfield who was the music critic Opera critic and and he had built that reputation for the paper for the southwest and the rest of the country. I mean anything from the low Chicago actually probably at that point we were ahead of Los Angeles. So, you know, I would say nice to New York and south of Chicago and

11:54 So they agreed I don't think they really knew what they were greeted in those days. I could come to New York for not very much money. I made you a couple of times a year and got to know people here in the art world and people were really receptive to the fact that there was somebody from you know, the boonies briard and our art, you know, but it was mostly Contemporary Art and

12:25 So then let me see. I'm kind of losing my train of thought. So at some point I became friends with there were three directors of the major museums in Fort Worth this but you've been doing this for how long how many years I've been doing it, but to the art museum was founded but when the Kimbell Art Museum was found it was probably I don't know 6 7, I don't know you're really early 70s.

12:57 Yes, I think we're going to 70s maybe later. So yeah. Yeah, I started in 71. I started it. I started in 70 so I started 1970s. I would have been maybe nineteen. It was before the bicentennial. Yeah, because by the bicentennial I was writing from Washington DC on the mall during the fireworks, but very shortly I guess after I started yes, because if one of the first started the first article I wrote was about the founding of the Kimbell Museum because the newspaper misspelled Kimball, it's Kimbell and there's a Kimball a l l football high school football team and the Campbells in Fort Worth Art Museum Fort Worth Art Museum, which is now the Modern Art Museum of Fort Worth and the Amon Carter Museum.

13:57 All had fabulous directors and I was friends with all of them partly. Thanks to Douglas mccahey, you know, I'd been around and he taking me over to the opening of the Amon Carter Museum, and and so

14:16 I think probably about four years after that or five years after that. They change directors at the whenever they change directors at the Modern Art Museum Fort Worth Art Museum. The new director was very Richard Kershaw like who later became director of MoCA Museum of Contemporary Art, like he was very hooked in with the National Endowment for the Arts because you've been on the board and I got an art critics Grant from the National Endowment for the Arts, which was I don't remember what the amount was not a whole lot but it was a matching Grant needed to match, you know, theoretically before I can get it and it went to all the bureaucracy at the newspaper and they said no they couldn't do that because that would set a precedent.

15:00 But

15:02 They would agree that they couldn't officially do it. So anyway, they did it. But ultimately they spent three times what the grant was the first year that I had it I had it for 2 years. And so that was my first episode of the how I got to know people at the National Endowment. What did the grant mean in right about exhibit said, I would not ordinarily be able to cover so I think I went to LA at that point and Detroit abely. I know I went to Detroit no one to Chicago and that was kind of you know, okay, so you so you start out you started a stand for a drink but then you get a load back to history courses, but they were great and they were both, you know, I can't remember mendelowitz or something was his name is fabulous professor and he would flash everything, you know from ancient to

16:03 Modern up on the screen and you had to be able to identify that would be asked so it's like instant recognition of all these things really the only serious art history training. Yeah, so you so you start there you get pulled back to live at home and go to SMU Southern Methodist University. And then in the afternoons you go over to Uncle Izzy's when you get this kind of rudimentary education by looking at these really great books that he's collected. He introduces you because of his philanthropic Endeavors can introduce you to all these people and then you end up with I forgot his name for 2 years you get married your in Louisiana come back. You have one child, then you have another child and and then four years later. So 8 years after you've had this mentorship right with McGee you get this call.

17:03 Somehow you strike a deal to be a work-from-home have your articles picked up go to New York twice a year and then sometime after that for 5 years after that you get this Grant and suddenly you're going from Natchez Dallas to New York, but to Detroit and two other places around the country and I was the only person in that part of the country who was doing that at that point. So I said people were really glad to see me and that's actually when you know, Dad was making a little money as you know, by the end of saying you look like sometime in the seventies, I think later 70s and so I'd go into galleries, you know where I was looking around and you know who the people and no maybe not writing about the gallery but staying in touch with the people at the gallery because they knew things about the museum shows. You know, what I was writing are always covered kind of the gallery scene, but I would have mostly they wanted me to write about the museum shows because that's

18:03 More readers would be able to tell if they went to that City for example, and it was New York mainly for a long time and it's hard to say, you know, show me what kind of drawings you have in the back when I can buy drawing $50 in those days, maybe a hundred at the very most, you know, and it's so that's you a lot of good stuff that I have. That's not by original artists is is from those. And it's in the back of the gallery.

18:36 So

18:40 Okay, so you kind of it's almost like you you fell into this into it and and do you know all this coincided with women's live and you know people I think you know who didn't know me that. Oh gosh, you know look at its woman, you know, she's like a leader of you know in her area for the women's Levi had nothing to do with women, you know, I was covering people like Judy Chicago who is doing these erotic, you know feminine, you know, body parts obvio dishes and stuff plates is Theo in all that was very much part of the feminist movement and other people like that and I did I did wasn't it. I just lucked into this, you know couldn't ended in a happier kind of accident and it really was just a fluke.

19:35 You looked into it. It's also happening around the same time as women's live and I've always kind of imagined because grubbing Dallas there were not a lot of mothers who were working at the time and you were you had a full career and when I would go to school and I take an art class the art teacher would know you and the English teacher would know you and so they were you or your kind of like a celebrity and I used to run my photograph in the paper for a long long time, but

20:13 It really I think it it intimidated a lot of women intimidate a lot of carpal mother's from schedule and I don't see it in a derogatory way. I mean a lot of the mothers that I carpooled with cuz meanwhile, you know, I was doing all the carpooling I was doing all the grocery shopping. You know, we had Esther helping he was a housekeeper are Mexican housekeeper in the house. But you know, I was still doing, you know every play group, you know, when you guys were little you all had play in your mother's did play grooves. You took turns once a week or twice a day or twice a week. I drove, you know, everybody to swimming lessons in the summer of horseback riding lessons in the summer, you know are all that's kind of stuff. You know, I was the one who came up to Camp cheley the end of Camp so, you know all the homemaking things.

21:11 Didn't go away because that would just wasn't the way it was done in those days. I know it wasn't like now. We're people just share responsibilities. And that's the way it is and everybody take that for granted. I know those days it it didn't so

21:28 So I think you know, it wasn't like something that everybody said anything to me about their also part of it was I didn't have time to have lunch with women. You have to go sit around at lunches. I do have some people played cards and people, you know went out to go shopping or something. You know, I'd I did all those years, you know, the only thing I can say is you know it and also I worked at home for a long time, but then I think in around 19, you may be for 10 years or not. Maybe not quite that long and then I guess around 1980 or something like that Robert Deckard who is the president of the paper part of the ownership family. Who is Lil bit younger than I am. I mean maybe ten years younger than I am but a nice guy and it was very nice to me all those years. He just called me into his office and Sammy down and said that he they would like me to go full-time and that it would really be to my advantage.

22:27 Because I would have benefits I would have health benefits. I would have vacation and and normally when you start their you have I think one week acacian in 2 weeks vacation, and he agreed to write the special note that I would have three weeks vacation every year in addition to the normal compensation time hours spent and that

22:54 You know, I would work. I would have to work at the paper, but I could still you know, try to work part-time at home. Anyway, I worked at the paper.

23:02 Then vote for quite a while, but I still work at home because I remember do you remember coming in when I was working this week in the bedroom in my files were there and everything and I probably only worked at the on The Whole30 for your career or whatever. I probably spent, you know, maybe 10-12 years actually at the newspaper. And of course, I wasn't sitting at the newspaper all that much anyway, because I was running around the yard. And and so that's you know, how I ended up working full-time. I know the answer the question about the Mother's Day. We started there between into you working full-time. So you were working part-time you didn't have time for the lunches and other kind of social stuff, but that's

23:53 Notable to me because you grew up in Dallas and you went the Hockaday which was a school where there were a lot of women who graduated and then became Housewives and socialized as a career. Absolutely and you know, so I was I was not part of that. So in a way looking back I missed something. I had really good friends. You know, my good dear friend Carolyn. Horchata just died me Berkowitz who lived in Dallas most of that time, you know who died two years ago, but I had really good friends, but not a lot of them and their lives were different their lies have gotten different because they didn't have to work. And so and so even there, you know, I didn't get to spend the time with him. I did, you know, there was a point in my life before I start working when every morning Mimi and Carolyn and I would take turns with his to sort of

24:53 We didn't have a plan but starting at 9. We call each other on the telephone and talk and that's very nice. You know what people like that did that all the time and it's a kind of bonding for women, which I never knew. I lost over the years. So looking back. I feel as though now at my age. I don't have as many clothes women friends that might otherwise and then you know, the other thing which is totally a side is that then, you know a certain point I launch my crazy dance career totally different direction and people thought I was crazy to do are you know and have a career as an art critic, you know, the people who got the people were talking about, you know, who didn't work whatever we never really thought that was so and so and that's in that was like my leisure time, you know, but a major Hobby and a major diss.

25:53 Glenn and a major Challenge and the artists all loved it. I mean the artist really understood and you know the steel, you know, they talked about this isn't this is what mid-80s 8686 Manuel the man, you know, he and I took a trip we took two trips to London for 10 days at the gas in the summertime. Usually when I was on my way to cover document to the big International Germany Germany or something else are going on some kind of trip with Dad and and for coaching in London.

26:35 And I remember the very first trip. I had a suitcase that has a lock on it and I put 86 and that's meant that it was 19 1986. So I did I guess 1986 and 1987 or 1985 1986. But remember, you know because I finagled and sort of made the most of the travel money and paid a little bit of my own. Yeah. I did I covered documenta in in Germany.

27:05 Four different times one time you met me there. So that's over a 20. No.

27:16 The crew that's over that's over a 20-year. Because it that show is only every 5 years.

27:24 So I think I know I did for maybe a day or so over 20 years you went there for time.

27:31 So, you know, you mentioned you didn't have a lot of clothes women friends. And then while you're talking about that I was thinking yeah, and on the other hand you had this other world of artists well known artists and spoke artists from small towns, and then you started to dance and you had this whole other world other social world that a lot of other people in Dallas didn't have access to

28:05 Time it's because we don't have like a group of friends. We have all kinds of friends. I mean we go out with artists who are in their 30s and Josh don't we just went to a wedding for people who are not Thirty we were invited over and so it was just so much more fun than just sitting down with the same people all the time. So and you also had you did retain really close friends from Pamela Nelson Susan Megalo. I mean, but these are people Pamela and Susan I met because they were artists long time ago because they were artists

29:02 But you know, it's so nice because now that I'm not working at new donut writing for the newspaper, so I'm not really and I'm not really doing that and not reviewing for our newsletter. You don't want to do that anymore. Just can't get off the list of people who do it, but but you know, I thought maybe people wouldn't be so glad to see me when I go to Gallery everybody. So nice, you know that I'm very glad to see me. So very glad to have the fact that I think it's supportive, you know, and they know I'm interested and I still get invited to all the Press previews at the Museum's which is fun. And you know, it's an interesting story that happened recently. I know if you know this but Klaus Oldenburg second wife coach of unproven died of breast cancer either in December Baby last December, I can remember remember or January. And and the last time I talked to him was when they took his big

30:02 Steak n Shake out of the museum in Dallas and put it in storage so they could use a really so they could use a space for something else. They said it needed restoration. Would you did whatever that it was a piece that was anchored to the girl bald and when he and I were you I wrote about that. Both sides, you know about know what they were doing. But also the fact that you know, did you don't just take down something that's been wishing for a building without me a very good reason and he really appreciate that but we stayed in touch over the years and then once he came to Dallas to Tulsa to install his Mouse museum at the Dallas Museum of Art and they had her two little kids and that's when I brought you know, that men do to little kids were sort of driving him crazy when they were over there trying to install and so I brought the two little kids home to swim with you and Robert and had the two little kids were just great when you just you and Robert were there and the two little kids they kept their little life jackets on perfectly and when coach

31:02 Listen to Never Forget was like here come the parents we can do what we want and class came at the end of the day and I gave him a beer and we're sitting in the pool and that little kid took a life jacket off and the next thing we knew that kid was under and they were just Frozen and I'm not I'm not that great a swimmer and you know the last life-saving course I taken was it stand for such a long time and I jumped in that little kiss. I remember you jumping in a long way, but we're not friends by any means and we are never see them never saw it didn't see that much and and so but I sent him a note. So I used an email address that I had when we were emailing back and forth about the stake. It has five years ago.

31:57 And it came back and then I didn't know how to reach him. I thought well, you know, I don't have to reconstruct this, you know, and so I just kind of dropped it in about a month ago. It was just bothering me know he was having a show in New York and was getting a lot of publicity and the show with the Whitney and I decided to I just really want to try to reach him. So I just picked up the phone and I called the number for the New York Studio that I had thinking somebody would answer the phone anyway, and you know and turns out he has to the phone. So we had this really nice conversation. I got to tell him in person, you know, but I mean that would never have happened to most of the people I grew up with or you know, whatever. I mean that kind of thing is like they say in the MasterCard Priceless in high school. I had a lot of art artists as friends fellow high schoolers and they all need they would come over to my house to our house and then see all these books everywhere and Peter and I

32:58 One side concocted a story that you had a lock of Salvador Dali's hair and then you were when you were really with the artist and people believe that for a long time if I had a chance, I interviewed them about their art, you know to ask questions about the art and just kind of had a chance to get to know the people a little bit, you know, so that was very rewarding because it's exposed me to a lot of different kinds of people, you know that there are some people as you said or folk artist.

33:45 You know serious big International name. So then what were looking back? What would you have done if you hadn't happened upon this nearly? Not him. I don't think I could have thought of something to do. You know, it's just hard to think of something to do when you got little kids and no responsibilities and I did a lot of volunteer work before I let you know too I work for young democrats for Kennedy Drive Kennedy. I was at the luncheon, you know, when he didn't know when he got killed and and being a volunteer is very rewarding in some ways, but it's but it's like it's hard because people expect you to just to be on call at least when you have a job you have certain ground rules.

34:45 Maybe a certain level you had you can set your own rules, but I felt as though I was kind of being used in a way. I'm not by that group with other groups, you know, and so I can't imagine a life just doing volunteer work and I have to say, you know, also that help financially it helped her family financially a lot because you know Dad's business was great certain times and not-so-great sir, And he was a very steady job that provided a very modest salary that turned out to be pretty respectable by the end. And also I was the one who had the health benefits for the entire family. So I covered all four kids and dad and me all those years. That's a long time. That's 24 years of health coverage.

35:33 What's the timely topic?

35:40 Well, let's see if I have another question for you. There's a lot I want to ask but we only have a little bit more time. I mean everything you said.

35:57 You get me so I know you talked about what it was like in the beginning right with this mentorship and then you get this dream job where they're giving you all this stuff and travel and get the grant you go to all these places. I also remember it that they were times you felt really frustrated with the newspaper maybe with a business for that newspaper adheres fortunately, you know, I didn't ever like had somebody totally try to rewrite me or any of that kind of stuff but periodically they reinvent the newspaper and every time they were invented the newspaper. I have to sit in on meetings and listen to you know, the bureaucratic stuff. I avoided most of that but I think the frustration came it wasn't frustration so much. It's just I was really stressed and it was a hard job was a very hard job and you know, there are a lot of deadlines even though

36:57 You know what you didn't used to be instant deadlines like they are today. Thanks to the internet. But there used to be no deadlines for Sunday editions deadlines for daily dishes. I mean, you know there were reports there were times in my career when I was turning in 5 articles a week 3 was pretty normal including at least one really big one and because they were running longer reviews then and that's time consuming. And so, you know, I was working, you know, sometimes when you guys came in and wanted to talk to me. Think, you know, you all probably remember my saying, you know, I can't talk really really mad. We all remember that not being at home is like because there I was in the bedroom, but you know, you couldn't get to me and I think that was very frustrating for kids.

37:55 And I did the best I could but

37:59 So you also you know, you kind of Hit the the newspaper business right? When I guess I should say that it's hard to imagine another era in which you would have had that kind of opportunity. Right and I went from wonderful situation when it was a paternalistic environment and greatly appreciated to this Erowid newspapers. Just know with horrible. I mean and toward the end it was it was really not a good situation because it was clear that the paper was starting to have really serious difficulties.

38:46 And as you know, I got out, you know, what the right time, you know with a good buyout package and my dignity and and you know, and in all very friendly kind of situation, but the year before they had just now called people, you know told people they would be fired know if certain people would be fired. They had to be at their desk by certain 9 on a Friday morning. I had to be available at home and then they knew one by one people's phone or it's raining and they were told to leave by the end of the day. So, you know, it's gotten a lot worse since I left, you know, so I got out at exactly the right time.

39:30 And

39:33 What? Yeah, you got in at the right time you had this amazing career and even if there might have been some misgivings, it's like could you pass that up? You know how I feel.

39:46 Really really lucky. I had such an interesting career and I'm still reaping the benefits of that now and my kids don't resent it quite as much. Thanks for talking with me.

40:10 Picture of are

40:12 It seems like there's less space for that and newspapers as it was during your time writing. Yes. Definitely. I mean at the time that I left a newspaper.

40:24 The seven senior Arts cultural critics left including the editor and one of the assistant managers so they have not replaced the architecture credit. They've not replaced me that not replaced. You know, most of those people they use part-time in a Freelancers and that's happening at newspapers across the board and across the country even this morning in the New York Times. There's an article of the New York Times is definitely now got the Boston Globe up for sales all along with another newspaper. That's in today's news. Today's New York Times and I think that now there are still art magazines.

41:09 But they are struggling as well. I think all print media or struggling now. I don't think the internet has proven to be.

41:20 I know like the paying internet is proving to be the answer to that. Everybody said it was going to be that all this would just move to the internet and it would now be you know online using whatever I think now it's really people who blogging that's that's where the future is. And as a matter of fact now the you know, I forget what the main site is, but Tyler green who writes only called Modern Art, whatever.

41:52 I mean, he's very popular. I think people still people who look at our die believe still like to look at print. I think they're visual people. I know I am. I mean looking at something on the Internet. It's nothing to me like looking at something in print writing on a wall and certainly not looking at art, you know on the screen is isn't but I don't think it's going to turn around and go backwards. So I have no idea where it's going. It's like a lot of things get lost. You know, I just went to see the Afghanistan show at the Metropolitan Museum yesterday.

42:40 And here we are like being twenty-two hundred years ago, you know in a country that is now in total, you know, chaos and gorgeous gorgeous objects, you know that were created there. If you don't brought there across the silk Rouge you got kind of you know, what's there to think yourself and we going backwards, you know civilization going backwards know we haven't gone backward them any other people in Afghanistan, you don't have the best of circumstances have plumbing and you know, civil civilized amenities, but the way the quality of life is not you know, all that great in some places not granted. They had ferocious Warfare than 2 which is how come at us a joke.

43:28 But you know just makes you wonder I don't know that you're 20 years from now have no no idea what any kind of criticism will be like

43:39 My favorite piece are really exciting these or something that you really enjoy covering.

43:45 I let you know. I have an interesting set of preferences and Argentino.

43:51 Likes I guess I love old Master drawings, but I'm a contemporary art person. So I'll of Contemporary Art and that's where my real interest is anything. I would say primarily from abstract expression forward and even now, you know, some of the conceptual things that I have to deal with. I find them very convoluted and sometimes very difficult and sometimes very self-indulgent, but I like figuring it out or trying to figure it out and

44:28 But I like old Master paintings, you know, maybe I mean, I don't like cowboy and Indian art so much. I don't have a favorite artist. I don't have a favorite. It's just I like the change. I like seeing how things change and then the pendulum in an art probably like in finance Wings, you know, it goes from realism to abstraction and then back to a realism in the back of abstraction and you can even say that now because a lot of these installations and include real objects are form of realism.

45:08 Happy sad, you written favorite pizza. No.

45:12 No, not not really. I mean I wrote I think one of the things I enjoyed most in recent years was I did I worked in I did I develop some series one was how to look at our how to look at and I and I didn't you know how to look at drawings how to look at Prince how to look at the different genre still life figures Landscapes portraits of how to look and then I did another series on

45:43 How to buy Hearts March you know, I'm collecting works on paper which often tell you more about the artist in the finished work because it's the thought process that kind of thing. You know, I enjoy doing that I enjoy interview. I'd enjoy doing interviews with artists because because of the personal contact and because the personal things that were revealed about how you know, why that person did such a particular kind of hard how that person got started the same kind of thing you're doing here the storytelling it away and I like the educational let you know that you know would never wanted to be a teacher for say I love to inform people about art. I love taking people into words, for example.

46:33 Thank you. My pleasure.