Erika Lutzner and Jenny Pachucki

00:00 July 10th, 2009 Hour, 2 Foley Square, storycorps booth and I know Erica through my work at the 911 Memorial Museum.

00:10 My name is Erica lutzner. I'm 41. Today is July 10th 2009. We are in New York, New York, and

00:23 John was my husband. So, we're here today, to talk about your husband John. He was killed on September 11th, and I thought it would be good to start kind of at the beginning of his life. I know you were his wife. So you obviously didn't know him when he was little. But could you start by saying it's full name in the day that he was born? And John Grabowski? John, Richard Grabowski. Actually, I think and he was born October 17th 1967. Where did he grow up in Delaware? Okay. I wanted to come into this knowing that he had a special relationship with his sister. Can you talk a little bit about that? Sure. He was a, not sure how, but a couple of years older than she was, she was the youngest, you two older brothers and he took care of her kids. She still does have cerebral palsy. And so they had a really special connection because

01:23 You know, she couldn't talk except with her eyes and is she was supposed to important person in his life. Besides me. What were they like together? So that they could you see a Bond girl yet? I mean, yeah, she she was fast. She is fast act because I know she's had a spinal fusion and takes a lot of Valium and her hands. When we go out and he would like, just hold her hand and they look at each other in the eye. And you could tell they, like, she knew who he was even though I couldn't speak. Can you tell me a little bit about his childhood? Seems like he like to do or memories that he was told you about from his growing-up years. He was in electrical engineering and computer work. And so when he was a kid, he would take an engine of a car and undo it and put it back together again, and he did that. I think with telephones like anything, he could find, he would take apart.

02:23 Put back together because he thought it was fun. So, where did you meet in College Park? Maryland at a place called the bagel place? I went to University of Maryland. And so did he? How old are you 20 to do? You remember your first impressions of him?

02:42 No, but apparently my roommates told me when I went home that I met a tall good-looking blonde, boy, and that's what they said. So that was, apparently, my first impression of him. I don't remember say goodnight, but they said, I did my actual first impressions were that he was incredibly incredibly smart smarter than anyone I've ever met in my life. What Drew you to each other? What were your conversations about? I think that we were complete opposites, and we're both very shy, and he was awkward back then.

03:17 Wasn't later on, but what drew me to him was that he was incredibly smart. Like I said and we are both working at the bagel place.

03:28 And I was taking philosophy of beauty. And I didn't understand, platonic forms or anything about them. I scraped, by, in that class. I need to be when I should have, and he explained photonic forms when my teacher couldn't, so that was really, I would say the blue tray. This is what I call it because he explained blue trays, and put on it, you know, allegory of the cave. So, so with your relationship, it started off platonic and then moved into romantic. Yeah, like 5 weeks later, I guess cuz he was like, really shy. I used to go to Santa Fe this bar for happy hour. I hated happy hour just to see him, but he was so shy that, you know, it wasn't even funny. And when we worked at Bagel Place, finally, we told them where he told them cuz he was like a manager that would see how he was dating, someone they're out. They never guessed me.

04:27 When when did, what was your first date or your first sort of situation that you were in, that it felt more romantic than platonic. What always did it just empathetically shy so you know what? I knew but I'm just so shy that nothing was happening. So I think it was one day after Santa Fe, which was Friday every Friday. And you know, you'd be ready to pass out at 8 cuz chicken wings and beer and go. So I like I said, I only want because he was there. So I think I think 5 Weeks Later.

04:59 Was there anything specific that you connected over? What do you mean side from platonic forms? I'm trying to figure out how unbearable lightness of being by Milan kundera cuz he was like 21 or 22. I do I don't know and he would read it and I thought that was so cool because it was my roommates in my Bible, back in college and I felt like I was Tomas actually from the book and he had read it which I thought was incredible because nobody had that I knew and so, you know, we connected over that too and we just had a lot of fun, you know Are there specific memories of dates or times that you had together that stand out in your head and then in those early years while I was in college, so you don't really date. I would say it wasn't like that but

05:52 After we have been going out for two weeks. I got really sick. And he brought me Tylenol and orange juice and I knew that was it because it was just like such a nurturing and caring thing to do. And so that made me feel really good to have any funny memories from this first from

06:11 He squirted lemon and his parents when we were at work. He's trying to show me something and that was kind of funny that from later on you, but not from the early.

06:21 Times. So, what year you were you, when you met, you said you were 2120. I was 22 an extra semester to graduate. So I want to say,

06:32 Probably either my next to last or last year. Because we might like a March.

06:38 And then I, I graduated the next December, he had one more semester than I did. So, I think

06:47 Do you remember his graduation?

06:50 Was that important? I don't know. I don't know about going. So we probably didn't go. I don't know. Can you tell me about

07:00 The Proposal, when did you know that when did you know that you wanted to marry him? I never wanted to get married so it's not like that. Exactly. I think we were together 12 years in September. 17th would have been, I think our 7th anniversary of not good about stuff like that. I think he always wanted to. I knew after five weeks. It was the right person and I didn't like that, because I was only 22. So I felt like I was too young, but I know, but I didn't want to have children. I didn't want to get married, and I'm the kind of person that

07:37 I'm stubborn. I would say. And he was very patient. And So eventually, he, you know, he didn't push me, but eventually I said, okay, I will I'll do this and I'm Jewish, and he was Catholic. So we got married by Unitarian Minister and she told me actually, I shouldn't get married. That's what she said. Yeah, so I'm very glad I did but so there was no, I'd say proposal. It was just something that I guess I knew what eventually happened. What was the wedding like aside from the minister?

08:11 Well.

08:13 Yeah, it was strange because I'm and I don't know that I'm going to want this to go in but I'll just say it. My friend. Matt, who is none in college. He just found out a couple days before those girlfriend that shot her head off. And so I spend a lot of the wedding talking to him and all my friends judge that and thought it was terrible cuz I should be with John, but he is a type of person who, you know, I felt like my friend came, he needed to be there, my dress cost more than the wedding, cuz my parents paid for that and I got married in the town. I grew up in Europe, Erica Town Hall. That was nice. And so that was very nice.

08:59 Did you take a honeymoon? We went to Paris? What did you do when you are paralyzed? And because I'm you know, I think I can't I had just probably either graduated or was almost graduating culinary school and

09:17 Every place we went where the poorest people and

09:21 Like we're really nice clothes. And here, I had one dress. He had like one suit and we're the youngest and was just really strange, but we went to Paris and we went to

09:33 Do the Chevron switch it? I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right the Champagne region and to phone which is burgundy and we just went to all these restaurants. We walked all over the place. I live in Paris when I was little. So I really liked it there and went to some museums and he been before he know. So what was that like you haven't experienced? What was it like traveling with him is fine, except that he would want to walk everywhere. We get lost and I get frustrated, cuz I thought we wasting time. I don't like to waste time. So that was kind of funny, but we traveled well together cuz I like to do odd things. Like go to

10:15 You know, I like the Chinatown to see what, you know during is like there. I wanted to go to buy knives and you know, I always want to see where the food sections are in until that was really young. That was really fun. And he would let me do it. What are things that you like to do together? Sort of like have it kind of routine things that you did together? Not know. We didn't have a lot of time that we spent together cuz I worked like 90 hours a week and he worked 100 so we only had like

10:50 A little bit of time together, we would go to when we lived in DC. We went to the movies a lot cuz he had the same taste as I did. Which, you know, a lot of people we argue, I I call it fighting he wanted are doing so we're really good at that.

11:10 We went to eat and, you know, we talked. So I'd say those, you know, those things that he have any habits or serve works either. Yes, he ate it. Pint of Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream every night of his life, a bag of potato chips. And he was like, so sleepy. I mean, when I met him, he was 64, maybe 160 lb time to get up to 195, or 205. He was hysterical and Nike stopped eating for a week. So then he got back down.

11:41 He had the worst eating habits event. I worked so much that he, you know, I didn't cook for him. So except when I was in cooking school. He had to eat like so much puff pastry and, since such that. I think he couldn't stand it anymore, but he drink a lot of coffee.

12:02 And because you only slept for hours tonight and the junk food. Those are you? What does she do for a job? And he

12:14 Went to school to be an electrical engineer, but he did on computer high-level computer work. When we were in DC who had worked at a place called Mitre Corporation, and there he did stuff with them.

12:30 With a I can't think what it's called The Towers at

12:35 The plane's. I just can't think what it's called flips on screens of that the plane some you know, and then he worked at IBM, which became Laurel. I think that will systems or something, but he couldn't tell me what he did there because it was like he had like fourth level of top secret, whatever clearance I can speculate which I want say hi, but he, you know,

12:58 He really liked doing that when he came to New York. He couldn't tell them what he had done because he was allowed to. He worked at a place called T is became. I'm not sure I think Starpoint or something and then he went to Marsh McLennan where he was going to be in charge of like a huge amount of people, but I only work there awake. So at what point did you move to New York from d.c. Early 90s? The mood for me because I wanted to cook. So he had a job offer in somewhere outside of London and we thought about that, but I wouldn't have been able to get a Visa. So I said, I want to go to New York and a month later. We were here.

13:45 Where did you live? When you first at 85 East 10th Street, in the East Village? I know that she worked a lot and you worked a lot. But what were some of the things that were a big part of your life?

13:58 Like what do you mean? I'm thinking of your cats. Are you? Okay? The cats are huge cat. One cat when we've been together like a year and I just graduated. So I 3 months after the cat was incredibly spoiled and very manipulative and smart and he did a lot of bad things and then

14:21 I'm actually went when John died. He sat by the door for five months waiting for him and he gained I lost 20 pounds. He gained 5. So yeah. My other cat Kerouac. One day, he brought back at home. And he says, when the computer the internet was just starting, he he found Kerouac on the internet. Some woman was giving him away and then we had another cat and Kerouac still alive. He's almost nineteen by genevan Kerouac because we both love Jack Kerouac and so I thought it was cool. My mom said it was affected and not so cool. But he doesn't know his name is Kerouac still. He goes by a lot of other names, but not care about so. So it sounds like he had. This will serve left brain, technical side to him. But did he keep an interest in some of these? You know, he had left and right. Seriously. I've never met anybody smarter in my life, and he was also very much what I called Devil's Advocate.

15:20 I think because he was a Libra so they can either be very balanced or the two sides of of balance, you know, like one time.

15:29 I don't know where we were, but I think southeast DC or something and a Jehovah's Witness came up to him and they were talking and eventually the Jehovah's Witness said to him. Okay. I'll see you up in heaven because he couldn't deal with. You know, what he was saying that? If that was the epitome of who he was, you came prepared to tell a few other stores and I just want to make sure we get to them. So, is there any that you kind of wanted to volunteer? I don't want to I don't want to miss them yet, will know that was one of them the Jehovah's Witness because

16:00 Really? I would say what that was. One of the things that attracted to me him that he was such a devil's advocate cuz I really like to talk and think. So he's very he wasn't being mean but he just had this conversation with this person pointing out all these things. And then, you know, the person got so frustrated that they had to go. I would say another thing was that

16:26 You know.

16:28 Memorial service. I'm a little quirky which is one of the things he liked about me cuz we're so different. And

16:39 People brought memorabilia of I told him to bring things that you know reminded them of him and I had a chunk of people put them in and his mom said it was the first time she got to know him as a man, which is really nice because a lot of people talked and you know, that made me feel really good at in. Remember there's this one person. I don't know his name and he's like cuz people brought Ben & Jerry's and like other junk food cuz he ate so much. And the guys like I can't believe you actually like 8 or when the bathroom because they say he was so I mean, he would have to go into work an hour early. So people wouldn't bother him because they come in and you know why I'm like an example would be the

17:28 When you can get a job that I asked him if he knew such and such program or language, and he said yes, and he didn't and two days later, people will be asking him for help with the language because like that. He could pick it up. Very very

17:45 Quickly, so when you guys, I don't know how much how often this happened but on the night that you on the nights that you had together. What was a typical night, like, I mean, because it was only mean when we lived in DC, we only have one cuz I was off on Sundays and Tuesdays and he came to New York every Tuesday. So I don't even remember then, I think that's one. Bravo was on him. So we'd watch.

18:14 I forgot was called the show, judge Shaffer, something with Lenny, something. It was really funny. And go to the movies, eat, whatever, but I Dupont Circle read the paper, but we only moved to New York.

18:30 You know, we would go out to eat. Like I said, cuz that was a big part of what I did for a living and then we could talk. And then on the nights when I worked, you know, he will go to bed at 2 and wake up at 6 because I get home from work so late. So how did the? He have close friends in the city? How did other people respond to him? He did later in life, when we started dating on my friend said, how can you date him? He's so quiet and then they grew to love him, you know, but it's very quiet. He had a few friends, not allowed to remember when some organization had to come in. That's a interview me and DC for when he got the clearance and they, they asked a lot of questions like my father lives in Paris and they wanted to know about that. And then they said, what can you tell us about his friends? And I wanted to say what friends, because he really was much of a loner.

19:26 But like I said, the last year of his life.

19:30 He had started to make friends and was really opening up. So but that was never very important to him. Did he have any hobbies?

19:39 I'm gambling on the internet which was like he was really good at it. And he dated when he was like off for a week, me like $12,000 and then said, this is too much work and he quit and

19:58 No, not that. I can think of really cuz he works so much, you know, when did, when did the opportunity to work at the World Trade Center present itself? I don't remember. But probably a couple months before because he had to go interview like several several times because he was so young and

20:14 My understanding was that he was too young for the job. But he was, like, I said, one of the brightest people and humans ever met. And so someone he used to work with suggested. He came, he must have been abused least four times and he wanted to leave his company because I think they started with maybe 30 people went up to $600 and then he had to fire so many people has last year. He couldn't, it was, it was really awful. And so,

20:46 Then.

20:50 Maybe two months or something. I want to say maybe a month-and-a-half, it took to get the job, he cut his hair, it really long hair and he cut it so that he looks professional and older. So he's always had long hair cuz he was too lazy to cut it. What did he think about the prospect of working in the World Trade Center?

21:08 I've two stories about that one. Is it? I think the year before Christmas, we went there and by mistake. We went on the roof. I'm terrified of heights and I was like, hysterical. I sound really bad panic attack. So he held my hand and took me around and then we went down cuz I thought I was going to die and I was there another time where I had to do an event for a place. I was working and I couldn't stand it. I it was awful. But my sister said because she talked to him. I guess like maybe the night before something that you love looking down on the world that it made him really happy. I don't know because I wasn't

21:50 It wasn't there and he work there such a short time. But you know, she remembers him saying that. Is it okay, if we turn to the events of the day, or would you prefer not to tell you can? How did that day start for you? I usually would sleep late, you know, and I woke up at 8:59, because John's mother had left a message on the answering machine, which I didn't pick up. And I turned on the television.

22:20 And I didn't know where he worked which Tower cuz he'd only work there a week and I need like 3 minutes later. He was dead. How did you know, I just felt that if there was any way possible. I don't care about the phone to be messed up or anything. He would have called me cuz he knew I would worry and I don't believe in any of the that you knowing when someone dies, but I, I know, I just know. So, what did you do in the days after?

22:51 Well, I stopped eating. I started smoking. Cigarettes. I

23:00 20 Union Square.

23:03 A lot the first five weeks. I don't remember, really. They're kind of a blur.

23:07 I guess we got ready for the memorial service, which I think was a 26. At what point did you decide that you wanted to have a memorial service? I don't know. I honestly don't know, but probably pretty soon after since I knew like three minutes after you know, and it was like I wanted to do a celebration of his life rather than have it be something sad, you know, because if he was looking down, I don't believe that kind of stuff so much. But if he was looking down, I wanted him to be happy. And so I had one of my favorite, my favorite poets, came and read, I read America by Allen Ginsberg and dumb.

23:58 You know, people like I said, brought things for him. I wore like this John Paul Gautier see t-shirt, but I work a muscle under it. I could even put my boots on my friend at to help me. And I wore it with my, I think you could fuck me red lipstick, but the thing is at 2 I was and so, that's what you can. I knew that he'd be okay with that. And then myyogateacher play the drums and, you know, that there were so many people there. I actually had to, I had it at my friend's place and I had to tell people, they couldn't bring their kids, and I had to stop telling people, they could come cuz it wasn't my home. I didn't know these people that well and so they're people like

24:39 Everywhere. And when Tobias, as my friend,

24:45 Adam chant like the other like a hundred and fifty hundred something while street workers there and they thought it was John's punishment on them. It's kind of funny.

24:54 What are what are some of the other things that you did as part of the memorial service to mention asking people to bring things we did cuz like I said, I don't remember but we had to keep I had to keep busy and so I did something called John stories which was people and I'm terrible with the internet. And so I was even worse pain and people would put their stories about him up and what they thought of him and they were beautiful. I mean, you know, when I brought it to my psychiatrist he started crying which is very hard for me. But so there was a picture of him and then the stories and then until we gave that to everybody.

25:34 You know, that I come. I forgot the rest of the question things that you did an association with his memorial, but I wanted to ask you, you said his mother felt like she got to know him as a man's through this process. Was there any stories that came out that you didn't know that surprised you were there? No, I thought it was funny when the guy said that about that but he might have said it a different time. I might be mixing up, but I could see people saying that because you just like I said, was so smart that

26:05 It'll blow people's minds and I don't think that I found anything out. That was new, then I think, and I can't speak for her but that it was the combination of what people brought and lots of people told stories about him. And that I think really did something for her to hear what people who loved him said about. Is there anyone in particular that you remember that you want to reply? I don't like it because it was such a blur. I don't really remember. I mean, you know, I wrote about it a lot cuz I kept the journal afterward and he did a lot of really nice things for people. I mean, he could be a total jerk because of being The Devil's Advocate and that was hard for some people I liked but on the other hand because of his sister.

26:57 He could be the most patient person the most kind person that existed. So

27:05 Do you think that she have an awareness of him being gone? I have no idea. She didn't, I don't know. What were, what was the grieving process or what has the grieving process been like, for you like thing according to my doctor's, it could be wrong there, five stages of grief. I went through four and very quickly. So the one I didn't go through and still having his anger, which is surprising, cuz I get angry faster than anyone. You've ever met in your life, but I got sad and I went to two Survivor support groups and I was going to a therapist twice a week and a psychiatrist once a week. So I agree but really hard and I didn't, you know.

27:50 How can I explain it? I went through the process. I think quickly in terms of nothing else, was there? I Stripped Away.

28:01 And then, you know, I went to California in June of that year to be with my best friend. And so I worked on a farm and that was great because I didn't have to, I mean, I was alone with the thoughts in my head. It was me a cat named Luigi to Quail and bees which I'm allergic to, I found out what it was really and my best friend. And so it was great because it was very cathartic. I could not be in New York cuz I could not listen to another person. Talk about people jumping off the roof. Any of that. I couldn't handle it and then people would make jokes and it just all sorts of horrible things. So, I needed to leave but the grieving process never ends. I remember a woman, we went to see the site, maybe my sister and I and I think my friend, Steven and Tom, like, less than two weeks after.

28:53 And you know, you still had to wear hard hats and you know, all this kind of stuff and they were there was a guy there actually who is working? And I bought a candle and he said that he would leave it with everyday and I believed him. I mean, it was the nicest thing anyone's ever said, but on the way over,

29:11 There was this woman who had been affected by the Oklahoma City bombing. I guess she lost her partner a husband and she said to me, don't worry, you'll get over it and I wanted to kill her because it's not something that you do know.

29:28 Help me at all my sister loved her and she I think had their what they had these dogs and cats that were like for people grieving, but it made me really angry. I didn't my friend Meredith actually, said, she didn't know what to say.

29:44 But that she loved us that was fine. My friend. Eric said that, he never met two people that complemented each other more. That was fine. You didn't have to know what to say, but her telling me that, I mean, I still

29:59 I would say I can snap like that and my dad says get over it. I've dealt with it by becoming a poet and getting an MFA and poetry. And what happened was in 2000.

30:15 Three. I think, I'm not sure either 2002 or Tuesday. I think it was 2003. When was hard because September 11th, and then September, 17th, our anniversary. I started writing him letters and my mom said Erica. These are letters are poems.

30:32 So I started to write more and that's really, really help me to deal with my, um,

30:41 With my grief, I would say, you know, I don't want to put you on the spot, but is there anything that you remember writing that was especially poignant or osher? I mean a million things like because it's my friend, Tim has a tomato farmer and he's a writer to he and he's been react known him forever. And he says can I say 14, but whatever, we've known each other a long time and he said that my writing has changed so much over the years. I wasn't ready to write about it until really last year, something like that because it was too hard and

31:19 I'm very brutally honest, I would say. And so, like talking about his body being disintegrate, it at 2,000 degrees. That's not fun or, you know, splitting the ashes down the middle to give him half to his mom and then a human body produces to 11 lb of Ashes. I don't want to know that but that's what happens when I'm in and all came out and you know in the writing did you need two for yourself? Put together? What happened to him? What do you mean some some family members really need to know, you know, when the plane hit this is this is what he experienced or that he was dead right away or he was yes, it bothered me so much. When like his boss said that

32:04 The plane was a football field away from him. So he died instantly. And I believe that, you know, if he's been on different for, he would have lived for a little while. But where he was, he died right away, so he didn't know what hit him so I can live with that. I could have never lived with thinking that he was on the roof and had to jump that I cannot even picture but

32:29 2002 January 18th, I wasn't there, but my sister was home and the police came and said that they had recovered. If you know, his parents get, I gave his hair brushed, his parents gave swabs from their mouth and they found a piece of his femur and it freaked me out. My dad said finally, he knew he had to run away from home, but it was mold covered. I want to see it and they said, no, it's really not a good idea. I really wanted to see it but I couldn't understand how they could find that when he was blown apart at $2,000. They said it's normal. It can happen bone fragments and

33:08 So for me, it's a very difficult because

33:13 You know, I wonder what it was like, it's nice to think that he probably died, you know, like that, but who knows, you know, I don't know. And so that's a real 8, horrible, horrible thing. And the other thing I would say, is that that morning, he kissed me. Goodbye every morning cuz I was sleep later. And I remember specifically that morning because remember the night before, which is Monday, and we've been walking and talking about this with me to get ice cream course. And we've been talking about meeting our friends and next week for dinner party, and I had forced him to go to the doctor because he had like some weird growth on his nipple. And I was like, pushing and pushing and pushing for him to go, and he wouldn't finally, did I remember seeing the band. He's like he made some joke about the Bandit the next day, which was it, you know, so he kissed me.

34:08 Remember what time you went to work but early and then I fell asleep and then I woke up to that. So yeah, is there any specific memory that you go back to often?

34:20 I did go back to while you're intensely grieving.

34:26 My cat sitting at the door, is one of the most sad things I've ever seen in my life and my vet saying that that wouldn't nobody believed me. But my vet said, absolutely my other cat could care less, but when I'm Spike died, Kerouac was like, hysterical. So, you know, that was very sad. I mean about him. Like, as a person, though.

34:49 I just said he was the most fun person in the world to argue. Like I said, we had such good conversations. I never got bored. Not the whole time we're together, but in terms of a specific thing.

35:04 I would say no, I mean there's things to do with her right before he died and you know, like couldn't get a rid of his Glee. I forced him to get to suits for the new job and then they were sitting in the, you know, closet and I do I get rid of that cuz I might be the last of him and his smell and stuff like that. But I remember writing about like watching him sleep, you know, and be looking at him while he was sleeping in and you know, but I don't think anything in particular is our future that you like the most, what do you mean his hair? His he really loves his nose? I mean, his brain, his brain. I mean yet he's very good-looking butt.

35:44 So are a lot of people it was absolutely the way that he thought I couldn't understand why he was with me because he was so smart and I liked it better when it was long, but you want a ponytail.

36:00 So, you can really see it. Except for one day, when you want to freak people out at work, sweetheart turtlenecks in the tear down. They thought it was a Ralph Lauren. But yeah, I know. I mean, he was definitely good-looking and Kara, it wasn't that it was, it was the way that that he thought. Is there anything that we haven't gotten to, you really wanted to talk about

36:23 Not really. I mean, it's just, you know.

36:31 I was always worried about a very anxious person and I was always worried about, you know, death of him and fire and height in plane crashes. And all can't. I think that's why I knew because everything an instant that I was afraid of happened. My yoga teacher said, that's because I knew he would should have been there and it won't go into. It was upsetting but just said he shouldn't have died when he was so young and it really, and I heard about that in a poem. Actually that I wanted to be, you know, old and falling apart and all this stuff when I was in my eighties. And I didn't expect it to happen when you know, he was so young.

37:11 I can't think of anything else. Really. Maybe, that's a good place to stop. Okay, thank you. Yeah, I'm sorry for your loss. Thanks and be 90.

37:25 So,