Madeline Kellner and Clinton Kellner

00:02 My name is Madeline Kellner. I am 67 years old. Today is Wednesday, August 26th. 2020. I'm here in Novato, California. And I'm going to be speaking today to click counter. Who is my husband.

00:20 I'm print calendar 67 also today is the 26th of August and we are in Northern California in Novato and I'm speaking with my spouse Madeline Kellner.

00:39 So what we thought we talked about today. Is that our Peace Corps Service. We served in the Peace Corps twice a Guatemala for 27 months 2016 to 2018. And then we started a one-year Peace Corps response service earlier this year in Peru until we were evacuated due to covid-19.

01:13 What were your favorite experiences in Peace Corps?

01:18 I like interacting with the with the kids. I was I was teaching life skills to middle school students in an indigenous town of about 4000 people. They wore their their indigenous outfits. They the women did the boys wore the traditional Western but western clothing and I like the interacting with them and I most like the graduation ceremonies and the celebratory events that they had in the

01:58 In their multi-use Auditorium or in their classrooms, and then and the celebratory events would be the anniversary of the school the anniversary of the founding of the town and the in Independence Day in the parade starring Independence Day. So those were really precious experiences. I like they're they're dancing the traditional dancing in the traditional music. That was really one of the most favorite experiences that that I like their. How about you

02:34 Well from the from the work part of it, I really enjoyed doing the garden. So what you remember what I was doing was working in mostly the rural areas with the schools. They were small schools working with the directors and the teachers in the kids in planting gardens to help them learn more about how to roll things that they could eat that aren't necessarily the cell or or corn but things that they could use in their recipes and used to enhance their there and I really enjoyed, you know, getting on the buses and and and going out in those communities and often walking from school to school and just getting to know the teachers and getting to know the kids and and really feeling

03:29 No just being part of their culture II really enjoyed that and then the other thing I really enjoyed was being in the community as you mention the women were still wearing their their native clothing and just the pride around that and just I don't think I ever got tired of just soaking that in just how beautiful their clothing was and how they were wearing art and how you know their homes maybe look pretty simple and basic but their clothing was and their pride in the end in their weaving and so I think it was the work but also just living there and being part of a culture so different from ours and and the stomach Antiquity, you know so much past and and yet here it was in today's world. They were keeping their culture and how how powerful.

04:30 Yeah, yeah, I can see that but what was most difficult?

04:36 I think what was hardest was, you know, I think is Peace Corps volunteers who has this expectation where you're supposed to yell all these things done and and you know, I was part of healthy schools and their part of using development and how we each had started this trip going on about will you know, you're supposed to be able to do this and you're supposed to be able to achieve these results and and and kind of living with with that and then becoming more comfortable with this. Well, you know, what can I realistically gets on what's in my control and what isn't and kind of savoring?

05:15 Learning how to save them or what I could do and the day-to-day and those achievements and kind of letting the rest of it Go, and I'd say the second year.

05:26 I was more comfortable with that and felt like getting for schools to to do Gardens and and they think several of them after we left we're going to continue that that that was a good thing. You look so happy about that.

05:43 You have difficult moments.

05:47 Ms. Their behavior of the students wasn't wasn't that good. And so I would often just dread going to the the school and hanging out and if there's an opportunity to teach off in the teacher would leave so they can get some other kind of thing other things done that they needed to do and I was stuck with these misbehaving Maniacs you to stay and have a half a teacher in the class. Otherwise, I didn't want want to do it. And the thing about Peace Corps is it's it's changed over the years from digging ditches are digging or doing things to trying to empower the the people that were serving with the host country Nationals in that is really difficult.

06:47 Because of the host country Nationals don't have that same vision that you have been it's not going to get done and it's so I got some of the teachers to teach with me. So I felt success about that Nicole facilitate some of the classes Sylvan the school principal at one of the two schools. I was at

07:15 Really like the curriculum and he thought he would have that is one of the classes the self-esteem curriculum and he had the manuals of the Peace Corps that I provided to them and to the teachers. So so that that that worked out. Also another thing that was difficult was, you know, we were in the community but we were never going to really be a part of the community the indigenous people are very reserved. There's a historical reasons for that that might be part of the massacres and the and the that happened on the part of the Guatemalan government. Although I heard of that I might have been to deal with the Latino Prejudice of the dino.

08:15 The 10 think they were prejudiced against the native people. So anyway, we would we it was precious if we were invited to an event and I that did happen sometimes and we're grateful for that. So that's that's what the

08:36 That also made it difficult. We weren't really holy Embrace, but there were our favorite people that like to see us in and we brought a smile to their faces and they brought a smile to our faces.

08:58 So, what do you think?

09:02 So the Peace Corps change you in any way.

09:06 I'm a fairly reserved and I guess conservative you could say not politically but in my behavior and beliefs

09:18 I don't know that that's saying that that changed me very much. I'm also an introvert and when Carolyn Biel the training manager said well now you can go out and facilitate anything. I learned that I'm not a facilitator. I don't like to still at 80 and maybe I could do it but maybe I can you know would want the notoriety let the attention but it just is not going to happen and I noticed I learned that and so

09:57 Peace the Peace Corps training experience it gave me new experiences and new knowledge. I just came across the the Ted Talk the danger of the single-story and one of the links that you sent me about Guatemala by Shima mananda. Negozi a deed She Wonderful talk just absolutely wonderful. And so it's those kind of experiences that we got in training and Indian servants that kind of goes into our memory goes into our being and it's not really a discrete thing that you can say that changed me. But but I think the sum total of that is given me some background from which to continue on with my life and build on that experience.

10:56 Yeah, I think for me because I've done a lot of community work and you know both isn't elected and is a board member and all the different things. I've done in the community here in the states and I think

11:11 You know it in an international context of working in Guatemala.

11:18 I think some of the things that I observed there are really similar it first, I would think. Oh, well, this is Guatemalan culture and then I think about Shane and in trying to make, you know, it communities together and do get them engaged in positive change.

11:39 It's the same. I mean you're dealing with people you're doing people one-on-one you're dealing with people who know their own motivation and their interest and I think I don't know if it or change musics perience, or if it really just gave me a feeling that

11:57 Yeah, we we are more of the same than we are different and that when you want to make a change you have to have patience and you have to decide what to what to go after I want to let go of and I think it just reinforced that and I think for me, I'm not a patient person. I think I'm a little more patient now and maybe a little bit more willing to just hang out and be that maybe I was before and

12:31 You're like it could compare which I know is another thing we were going to talk about today. But Guatemala with Peru. I think that helped me when we went to Peru because I have been part of another Latin American culture II a lot of no I want I want to see the countries of the same they're not but there's a lot of things that were similar that I can't even explain to you. They're just I just felt that I would just now. Oh, yeah, that's somebody that's going to go over or just like your whole back on that because it'll, you know, it'll happen or I just know it's hard. There's so much about the Peace Corps experience that that can be I think I understood by another person who serve but it's really hard to explain it to maybe people that will be listening to this interview someday. There's things that you're you just pick up on that become more more second nature and you have

13:20 Does it just more patience and where acceptance than maybe you would if you haven't sir?

13:27 Yeah for me and in Peru after a Guatemalan experience, we weren't really integrated into the community in Guatemala. And in Peru. We lived apart from a family unlike in Guatemala. And so we got I was prepared for not being holding an integrated in Peruvian. So that that helps you knew that you're not going that immediately be plucked into a place where you're welcomed and and and you have a kind of a family connection than in friends and everything. And so that part of the experience was a little difficult until we started to develop those precious experiences.

14:21 Without you know, maybe I can kind of pick up on that one.

14:26 You know, we were only in Peru for 8 weeks which doesn't seem like much but I'd say we had a lot of really rich experiences in that eight weeks, but I think the fact that the only been a year since we've served in Guatemala, so it's pretty fresh. You know that the Peace Corps part of it was when we didn't have a lot of training we didn't really need a lot of training but I think the fact that we haven't been back that long and that it been another Latin America country. It was easier I think to to get into the swing of things that wasn't much of a shock although

15:01 Clearly being in Iquitos in the Amazon of Peru. I know where it was 90% humidity in 90u00b0. All the time was very different than our physical environment. But a lot of other things were similar and I think for me the fact that we were in a community that was ladino where we lived then the people we were working with including a couple of our co-workers, we're indigenous and I think the fact that we've had experience you have a Guatemala are working with indigenous communities was helpful because

15:43 It allowed us to manage expectations. I think a little bit more than if we hadn't had that experience then and now there's always a part of me that will say G how would that have worked out? You know, if we had stayed cuz we were just on the custom beginning to you notice to figure out what we're going to do and how we're going to do it. But I really do think that, you know, having had that Guatemalan experience community and working in a Uno in another Latin American with another government with another situation. That was as I said earlier not the same but yet I think it just helps then it been if we had been first-time volunteers. I think it would have been more of a shop what I tried to express but then that's very very critical to a Peace Corps volunteers work and mental health in perspective and

16:43 Everything so yeah, that is very helpful in that did our Guatemala experience did play into that for Peru? I was very helpful.

16:56 We were older Volunteers in both places. And so I don't know if you had any concerns about being older with a bunch of younger people in our in our work. And so I don't know. How did that work out for you?

17:16 You know because of my

17:20 My work experience and my community experience I've had I have had in many cases. I have been one of the older people and if I've had younger bosses, I've had a lot of younger people and the fact that we have two young people. We have two children that are in their thirties and I deal with people whether they're older younger, whatever I just deal with people.

17:49 Straight up, you know and in so I, I know and I I wasn't concerned about it, but I was also very careful.

17:58 Because I did a little reading ahead of time not to do this while my experience or you know, well, I have all this experience and I'm only you know, and I I think I was careful about that to temper that so that there was more of a person to person.

18:15 So I was really pleased that we had the relationships that we that we had with our cohort in particular. I think there were a lot of older people in our group. So that was helpful unusual as most of the other cohorts didn't have older volunteers. So I was really pleased you know that if we have the kind of relationships that we did. I I didn't feel it was the same as newer volunteers came in. I think they looked at us and they thought oh, they're older and they're you know, we have to like in one case there was a party that happened everytime I group finish the training and I heard through a colleague in that group that they weren't going to invite us. And what did I think about and and I said, well, you know in the past is always been and you know, that really isn't about inclusion and if you're not inviting everybody in the older volunteers decide whether or not they want to be part of it.

19:15 That was kind of in a way a little hurtful is like whoa, but I think some of that was they just didn't know us they didn't have experience with the older volunteers and yet our cohort.

19:29 So I guess I was happy until this day, you know, we have friends that we've kept up with and interesting enough. It's it's the younger ones that we've maintained our relationships with not maybe not so much the older she has a long time to answer. But now how about for you I think the volunteers we served with our awesome people very intelligent very articulate. Passionate and and and and dedicated people and so very I was very impressed with them during our training experience and I believe training it was a difficult process because we have developed these these these fines and in got to know them and it was comfortable and then we were going off to the unknown so but yes and I felt I treated them with respect and I was really happy.

20:29 To be embraced by the language group that I was in because that that really really helped as an older volunteer. I was older than their parents and they they were happy to have me time. You said I'm glad you're in our language group and they all included me in the events. Do you know except for the women only events that they had maybe once or twice with that was fine with me. But anyway, that was I was really really good to be with Tanya Natalie and Amanda together there.

21:13 And we learn from each other and it was really maybe something.

21:24 You know that I was going to just finish up a little bit about the

21:29 Comparison of the Guatemala and the Peru

21:38 Is the meat many many more. What might be a good one to talk about is

21:45 We were pulled out in a while after eight weeks and we were kind of on the cusp. I know me personally. I was trying to get some traction with my with my partner with my partner and I think if we had stayed a little bit longer, you know with the support of our of our manager from Peace Corps, I think would have been able to to make some inroads there. But but if we had the chance to go back

22:13 Would you go?

22:17 Yes, I would go because I I feel a commitment to the service. It was it was interrupted for no fault of anybody's.

22:31 I especially liked in Peru interacting with the Roma Taurus the indigenous women of the Amazon and their training event my particular project of helping the nonprofit MinGa Peru with their educative truism program. That's not really my thing. I was spinning my wheels are doing it. It wasn't that enjoyable walking from our apartment to the hot office and the temperatures ranging from 83 to 93 inside temperature with the fans going to keep you cool.

23:21 That wasn't that enjoyable my work was going to come up later in the session. But so but I still felt that that that needs them the need to go back.

23:37 What we learned in our Peace Corps experience is that you need a willing partner?

23:46 You need to have a willing partner or nothing is going is going to get done. Especially if you're trying to develop their capabilities of managing of managing project is implementing project. If there's not that willingness to do it, it's not going to get done in that that bad came through very loud and clear with our Peace Corps experience if it shows how difficult it is to get projects accomplished in.

24:23 Countries that have been former colonies made the people have been marginalized there is corruption. There's dysfunction at the governmental level are there there is criminality rule of law does not exist. I just read your link that you sent me about Guatemala and it seems like it's getting worse with the increase in criminality and trumps.

24:57 Our president's lack of interest in that aspect of the US role is concerned about immigration. If you stop the criminality The Killing going to have more success and then having the people remain in their country instead of playing for their lives. To us.

25:23 So that was my answer and kind of Segway from your original question, but it's that it's all related.

25:32 I think for me I would you know I said I would like to go back if there would be at the way to do that. I don't know given Cove addiction. Looking real good, but I think for me just like you said, I mean he needs to be a willing partner and what I felt like was it first I didn't think my my work partner really understood what my role was and what I could do and and how I could help her Advance what she wanted to do is so my curiosity is still there about well, was there an opportunity to make that happen and I think our attic Jovana if we had had our second meeting and in everything, I think that might have removed it and move the dial of it in and if it did I think there was tons to do I think the permit or has were very inspiring that we spent four days with and that training.

26:32 Are my work partner that I had already done a lot of great work with them getting it going. I think it was just really kind of in a point where you could take them, you know steps further involve more people. I just saw the opportunity and then I I think I'll always be curious about you know, whether that that could have happened but you know, another thing that you brought up was about International Development and since we've been back, right, you know why so I can't remember maybe the first time I came back last year on people told me to read Melinda Gates this book and it is it's in the hall and I'm forgetting the title of it. But anyway, it's so I read it and but so much of it was about you know, what was have all had to do with with the Gates Foundation and some of the things

27:32 They've learned in their Works in development and a lot of it kind of came down to the women that you know, if you can work with the women if women are educated if women are empowered women and I enjoy the book but so much of it was because I had experienced that firsthand, you know, that was really I think a lot of our work and going to mall in the Peace Corps least mine wasn't working with mothers and working with the women in the schools and community and around their weaving and around, you know, being able to do business development that that was almost out of second nature to me. And so I feel like having that experience

28:14 In Guatemala do all the reading in the world but having been in the country and seen it firsthand. It just makes you realize you know, how challenging it is to do International Development, but how does so much of it is pretty basic, you know, you know, like I was reading a New York Times piece. The other day about is a little bit of a lost you but about this some Public School in New York City and how their moment is declining. It was kind of an international school, but really wasn't that International in there a lot of a lot of gentrification going on particularly in Brooklyn and how they were the white families that were looking at the public schools and one regular school. They wanted to join and how they started to to join the school and they wanted to do a French program and there was already an existing structure there of I think there's

29:14 Puerto Rico an American woman and her husband who are on the board of the PGA already had, you know a group they're mostly people of color and then this other group comes in and go to school and it was just reminded me so much of all of what we were taught in Peace Corps not to do when you go in the community was exactly what these people were doing in Brooklyn. No, and then there is is she okay or this tension between the local people in these new people coming in and if they having at Peace Corps experience you look at that and it's so obvious what the problem is, but I think people that haven't had that kind of experience, you know, because I need to read a book about it, but I feel like for us

30:00 That's an experience that would definitely color. We got involved in things here back, you know when our own communities because we've had that experience. So that's kind of my reflection on the International Development what the issues are and what the community is wants to solve and and how and how they can solve it. So so that was a very also powerful part of our Peace Corps experience and I'm surprised that the Gates Foundation took him so long to realize women were the key because we knew that

30:50 You're one of the things that I was thinking about that it might be a little different about our experience in Peace Corps was that we served as a couple and you know, we quit our jobs back in the 2016. We didn't really officially retire. We quit our jobs and you know, we each every day went off and I went to my place here in Moran and you went to Point Richmond and we had our own work lives and and then lo and behold bam, you know after our training we were living in a small little place together and you are

31:25 Girl what you know, what stands out for you about that experience as as a couple the whole Peace Corps experience as a couple.

31:37 Well in our normal work Lies We on the weekends, we would do activities together go to the store go to a play or a movie or have our own downtime apart. But we were we were together during that weekend at we ate meals together. We we were together a lot we go to our site and Guatemala were together a lot because we're there in the same two rooms for two years and it's cold and we got our jackets on sometimes two jackets in the winter.

32:21 But we had our work that was separate mine was in the afternoon yours was in the morning. So we had that separation of time and and interaction with each other and so we weren't didn't build up the irritation factor with each other that that song in Peru. We were in the same two room apartment same one-room office.

32:55 You know 24/7 so that was a little bit different. We had our say mission to sell that that took a little bit of adjustment and then as it as it did when we came back here so for me emotionally next day.

33:16 We didn't have as much separation as we had in those other variances, but I think I really was glad though that we serve together. I think that we didn't get maybe our Spanish didn't Advance as far as some of our colleagues because we spoke again with each other that I just think in both places. I had challenges with my workour. I can buy my head challenges with you know, what some of the Peace Corps management issues and in Peru I had issues with trying to hit traction with my work part and I was hopeful to have you there it was helpful to have you there just as support if not, maybe with the answers, but just you know to have you there from an emotional support. So I think yesterday together had many more blessings than the minuses in and and I think

34:16 Having had that experience is another thing. I think we were going to talk about a little bit was with covid-19 all I mean we were just on a ripped out of Peru and then back here and you had to quarantine and then you were sick. And so then I had to be the kind of wanted to go out and do stuff when we got back but it was awful strange to come back and not have an even have a lot of interaction with other people but here, you know know we couldn't even see Laurel for our daughter for a month, but I think the fact that we had that experience and that we were used to being together. Maybe made it a little easier with covid-19.

34:56 No to maintain our sanity, you know about those other inputs. So so so quickly and yes, I don't think I could have served alone because we needed each other for support because it was so so difficult are in both both places so such a certificate work when you're doing there in the Peace Corps. That's that's a big factor in emotional support and other volunteers. They find it among their volunteer group.

35:39 We had a select group of of some volunteers that they supported us and then each other two.

35:50 Now

35:52 Or maybe just hanging on to the Kovach thing a little bit more. I mean

35:58 What do you think for my Peace Corps experience has helped us this last 5 months?

36:09 Well, I didn't really want to leave Iquitos. I didn't think that the covid-19 bad cuz it's kind of an isolated community and I heard about how you know, what was that what was happening here in the US and I was but

36:29 I'm glad you did leave because here we can exit our house and walk in open space and Peru. You weren't even allowed to exit your home or your living Place having us stay in that hot apartment. What would have been very challenging with the

36:52 So I think that experience knowing that other people in and other countries don't have it as good as we do when we are able to at least find stimulation outside of our Abode whereas and they're about very little stimulation there and

37:21 And and and the people couldn't stay in there are both because they needed to access it to work by governments weren't able to provide for their system. And so they had to go out and work so they can Coumadin 70% according to the newspaper reports.

37:43 So that's that help me on return. Yeah, I think will help me was just thinking about I have health care and have a house. I have food. You know, I have I have security here that that's so many people there didn't have is so many people here don't have and so I think you know when people complain, you know, what I would have complained that usually that we had to do the same hike like big deal. I mean, you know compared to what if a lot of people have to do but I think that that's helped. You know, what even right now, I'm looking out the window here at the smoke and you know, we've got a fire going on 20 miles from hearing and it has been very very tough to be outside and your house smells like a campfire. But again, you know when I see people posting on Facebook, so it's Smoky and I think you know it is but I'm not sure I would put that on Facebook right now because we have 250 men and women out there in Point Raise right now fighting the fire the wrist.

38:43 You know, I just I just think having had that experience in countries where they don't have what we have here has given me much more perspective and ability took things and to just say well that's the way it is, you know that that will get through it and that it could be worse and you know, I mean, I want to sound Pollyanna but you know to be thankful for you know, what Windows Winston came up with very dusty three months of the year when they burned off the corn. It was very smoking very smoking Guatemala. So it it it gives you a perspective again and coming back to see the relatively minor worries and concerns.

39:43 And of the people here in in the US and in Marin County, I have trouble relating to their concerns because I see them and so trivial when we came from a country where there was no rule of law no request for egregious.

40:05 Activities that the government and the criminal gang Mafia were involved in so

40:19 I changed my perspective that's peaceful swimming.

40:27 Well, I'm just going to thinking of some of this the other items here, I think.

40:32 What I miss most about our people I miss the routine of walking to the school. I miss I miss that students saying clean tone photo and then I rip out my camera and I get great pictures of the backs of their heads as they teased me either in school or on the way to school or is I'm walking around the town or the little kids that know me. I didn't teach little kids, but they somehow knew my name and of course I stood out I was probably at least a foot and a half or 2 ft taller than most of the people there.

41:18 But you know, I love them in and and we would walk to the largest pine tree I've ever seen in my entire life or the indigenous plants or the place where we saw that God men's pit viper ghost experiences.

41:43 Yeah, I have a lot of fun memories to both of the of the people and interactions in the just leaving the day today walking through town and I have I think we have more of those in Guatemala that we didn't Peru because city of a half a million people and we were starting to kind of get to know people but wasn't quite the same as because it was on but I assigned there times when I'm no like I'm concerned about something or I'm you have anxiety and then I'll think back and you know, what else take for instance the time that we went down to that waterfall in San Marcos eagle died and it was 3 eastern time. So there are a lot of other people that were making that there are Guatemalan and I remember us standing in front of his waterfall and prayers that wasn't drink covid so you can have to quite a few people there.

42:43 I remember that I remember the beauty of the waterfall and the people and how people were friendly and if some of it was this is no outer part of Guatemala and maybe a little less indigenous little less conservative people were pretty friendly and I'll just think about just that memory and it'll kind of helped me get through whatever I'm dealing with here. So I think you know, there's a lot of richness and variance of service that brings you Joy. That isn't it's not over it's always going to be with us in my friends with the Amazon Bayou park with the 10-year old guide and name was Tonya daughter of the

43:33 The park Guardian the guy that manage the park and so and so she's trying to manage me as I'm trying to take all the pictures I can if they want walking along this time Park just now and in the guide and she would say avanzando if I'm lagging back trying to get this picture avanzando are going we're moving along the move get your butt in gear and catch up. So anyway, that was the last I think that was our last second to last thing the last day and then after that we were evacuated so we're living living it to the fullest until the last of the little did we know that bite.

44:30 So maybe we can I do any kind of wrap up here and

44:37 You have given covid-19 just talked about.

44:44 You know what? I think we haven't had a chance to talk about a lot is that yesterday we heard from our manager in Peru, and you know you and I have been helping with raising money for mina Peru and in helping virtually since you got back, which has been a really great to feel that connection, and I'm so looking forward to talking next week a little bit more about this. There's a potential people are looking at a pilot program where we could be virtual volunteers and continue to do some work with me. So that's something that I'm kind of excited about that might be happening later later this year.

45:27 But I mean, what are you thinking? I mean we're kind of in this holding pattern here. What are you thinking about the future? And what is the future look like for you?

45:37 That would be a good way to test whether it's

45:43 Would be productive for us to go back to MinGa is if we get response on this because we have done work on what is your concept of a of a promotora? How would you add to their training, you know, ask those kinds of questions cuz you and I developed a concept in for promotora. It is a little more advanced than what the promotora star are engaged in now not outside of their capabilities. But so if we can if we can advance our

46:25 Perspective and merger with their perspective. I think it would then we would have something but yeah what I would like to get back more into natural resources, I mean to be honest with you about to two years of

46:45 Community develop work and I'd like to do more natural resource work and

46:52 So that's that's what I'm going to do with covid-19 on access that I know of two University museums where I can get direction and then in support

47:10 Are there are things that I I'd like to do but I think doing lepidoptera surveys in areas where the vegetation is survey kind of see if there's a different here with the fire. See what's happening post-fire development. See if the weeds come in like they did in Point Raise in the last fire. So then see what the fires have done for the weed. I don't know if they if they got the free post-fire vegetation sampling areas. There is something worth the investigation.

48:03 I think for me I stole I have the bug to do the international work. I mean I've done a lot here. I've done a lot of community work here in Marin and and I just think I still have the bug International work. So if there's a way that we can do that if we can do it to Peace Corps if we can, you know, we have contacts in Guatemala for can go back there and do some work. I think that's still a desire and I think for me it's how do I how do I have purpose in this interim. And in so far I think I found some ways to do that, you know through my free scoreboard work and the interview project with the Peace Corps all history project and things like that. But but I think for me I'm going to need to find some things to do here while we're waiting to do the international work or maybe perhaps through the Peace Corps pilot project crew. I can still keep my hand in so

49:01 But I think that's that's you know, what I'm concerned about is if this whole thing seems to be just getting longer and longer and not being able to travel so it's just coming the peace without and figuring out what we can do individually that meet our needs and what we do together to do continue to explore our mutual interests and Outdoors and travel and return to society in the world contribute. How are we going to contribute to the betterment?

49:46 So that's that's what we're struggling.

49:54 Well

49:56 Been a fun conversation