Mason Dunn and Grace Sterling Stowell

00:03 Great. My name is Mason Dunn. I am 35 years old. Today is Wednesday, February 3rd, 2021. I'm recording from Tewksbury, Massachusetts. And I'm chatting with Grace Sterling Stowell. Who is a colleague a mentor and a friends.

00:22 Thank you Mason. My name is Grace Sterling Stowell. I am 63 today's date is Wednesday, February 3rd, 2021 and I am recording here in Cambridge at my home and and I am here being having a conversation with my friend colleague and former co-worker Mason Dunn.

00:48 Great. So bye-bye waiver road map for this conversation not what I wanted to do is for us to think about the fluidity of identity and language is particularly in the frame of gender and sexual orientation. There's just kind of assumption that these things are terribly linear or binary. The reality is it's it's beautifully messy. And so the language is constantly adapting to help us make sense of that complexity and mess so driving diving right in here. The concept of coming out is not an isolated event for any of us, but actually a lifelong journey is self-awareness and advocacy. So understanding that complexity Grace. Can you speak a little bit about your experiences and coming to understand your identity in your using the language that you had at your time?

01:40 Yes, thank you. Let such a great question, you know, I always feel like that any of us can only make sense of our identities in our experience in the context of the language that the available to us at the time and and what that might mean in in our families are communities or in the media or whatever way were able to to learn about identities that experience and the language that describes them and so for me am I coming out like I mean, I feel like the lifelong process from my earliest memories. I was born in 1957. So tonight earliest memories in the early sixties. I knew I felt different I certainly didn't have a name for that difference. But it was I but I was visibly different by my gender expression was obviously not what was accepted or understood to be appropriate for a little boy's somebody who was assigned male at Birth and certainly as I go

02:40 Little bit older. I knew that my sexual orientation my faction for also not what were considered appropriate for somebody who's assigned male at Birth and so my experience in the 60s is being with somebody who has different different than my my brothers or family members were our friends in the community were in school and and mostly I heard negative terms and it was really around being called a sissy or a berry or a bag of her other negative terms that that said that I was not only different but there was something wrong with me. And so the only way I can make sense of my identity was just that that I I know I felt different I knew that I felt more connected more and I think of the word but currently I feel like my life ain't the people I was closest to in my life or my mother female friends and family members and and school and and and so I guess my under

03:40 Ending of my gender identity and my gender expression and my sexual orientation always had her wrapped up and what I could see around me, they were certainly no positive role models that I actually know I'm representations of all trans people or or their people and what little was for the reference was was negative as I got a little bit older and have a clear understanding in and then of my at Night My gender identity and my gender expression I first identified for myself, I would say the first term is used to describe myself with gay. I was might my sexual orientation and and I assume that my gender identity and expression was part of that and I'm really oh I would say in the 70s. I identify this gay and and it really wasn't until I started meeting other in a gay man in the community.

04:40 7 days that I realize that okay. There are people who identify as man and were the two men and two men gender identity and gender expression are quite different. So the word transgender wasn't available to us at the time. It was more rigidly transsexual and transvestite and I and I didn't like either of those forms with me. They were pretty binary and pretty linear in some ways. And so I and I self-identify I would say my my community my community coming out connecting to other community. We identified is queens in a drag queens Queens an event that you were assigned male at Birth that you were your gender identity and or gender expression was on the the feminine Continuum and we were attracted to men and and so and I guess for me it wasn't until the

05:40 Transgender started to be coming to more common usage in the later 80s that when I heard that I thought & M back then it was Amor Amor non-binary term transgender them was a much more fluid in a kind of loose. It was it was actually developed as as distinct from transsexualism or Ridge in a binary term. So it's interesting to see how the language has evolved since then but I embrace that as trans is transgender woman and continue to evolve and enter Embrace that identity but it is interesting all these years later to state that transsexuals in virtually dropped transvestites been replaced by cross dresser and and and transgender now is being seen in years that the more by younger Generations as more binary term and so it's not surprising that non-binary as a concept and many other terms that that came before them before that.

06:40 Had to develop for those of us who who are you know, either or neither nor in a boat and all of the above. And so that's why I would describe myself today and I'm queer Femme non-binary trans woman who is now an elder that's a long answer to share question, but it's such a great ones because it is somebody who identifies as queer and non-binary and trans masculine and it was in the trans umbrella it something I resonate with and appreciate that and something we've talked a lot about the complexity of all of this. One thing that I think is so striking to me in the language that you had early on is the word queen and the way that that also has been a term used in the the LGBT.

07:40 2 + Community for many many years but it's I would say seeing it a bit of a Renaissance right now in the last 5 to 10 years and things like that come up and do what I want to drive a little deeper into to the queen community of your Youth and what that was like in comparison to add in relationship to the the more binary trans community that you were speaking about. If you can you know, it's Trinity the color of working-class communities like it's it's very much a term that that came out of in a again the language we use back then Street Queens.

08:40 Queen to perform Queen to a working-class those struggling economically. It was definitely a multiracial community of a folks who will use those terms describe themselves and then each other and and that was the community. I came out to first. We were clean and we hung out on the streets and we We snuck into clubs and then we we we we we were profiled by the police and we ran from the police. We were we were really having intercourse between any of the time back then was very different than it is today. There were very few with us the recipe for legal protections for sexual orientation. Let alone gender identity and expression. It was it was before there was the whole infrastructure of nonprofits and and programs and services and and so forth before there was a whole lot of media positive media.

09:40 Jason self coming out to a community meant you were coming out to a pretty underground Shady kind of community dinner that was never really bars and clubs to MMM all night cafes and the wee wee it was a term of Pride for us, but it was that it was a shared recognition that no matter who we were and again, we were multiracial multi multi backgrounds. Were We're British and buried and so we didn't answer the call came from the exact same background, but we had a common shared that mean that we were oppressed. We we did not have legal protection. We were targets for violence and buy in a general populace and the police and and we didn't have much and we were living sort of on the edge as you know, how you said I was lucky to have a tiny one-room studio and then hourly job that

10:40 Anna got me by but certainly didn't have much more than that. And so I think that it was a term that that really bound us together as a community and opposition to a larger community and at the same time that the guy gradually emerging mainstream in a community that was came to be known as the lgbtq community was was seeking more mainstream acceptance was seeking more legal protections and and we're starting to move towards more responsibility and people like us the queens were definitely not that we were seeing us a liability. We were often excluded from some of those efforts and and an actively as folks where we're trying to move part of the community full word. They were either not talking about our experience not including us to talk about her own experiences and in some way.

11:40 Minimizing are denying our role and end as leaders in the community.

11:46 Yeah, and I love you were claiming your royalty in an era that was seeking to to put you guys the you know, the underbelly the the we don't talk about that community and yet within the community you were saying weird Queen's we are royalty and I think that's really just beautiful from a lake resilience standpoint that we understand who we are and we're not going to give that up for the sake of your you know, mainstream sitting within the binary mentality.

12:26 And so the quote-unquote trans mainstream at the time was also in a very different place that you know, there was almost separating itself from the then kind of talk about the gay community which you know is is fascinating to me that we see these things kind of package together in the lgbtq + Community right now, but that hasn't always been the case that there has been some self-prescribed division between trans and LGBT but largely that the gay community at the time right? There's a separate to say we are the lgbtq + community and and recognize a range of identities within that but back then it was very separate and especially if we think of Alexa

13:26 Part of the trans umbrella those of us who came out to a a KKK communities were usually those of us who were in a we were assigned male at Birth or the Queen's or feminine perhaps identify this women, perhaps somewhere in between or outside that that's kind of a binary structure but also in a butcher masculine the sign female at Birth folks some who might identify somewhere on the masculine or Spectrum or his men and and and so those are the folks who were part of a community than as that the S the more mainstream a respectable folks that the cisgender gay men and lesbian primarily white came in and lesbian. We're really moving forward to the secure legal protections and the rest of us working.

14:26 I said more of a liability mean while there's another whole group of folks who who didn't come out through for the community in that way those who were assigned male identified as women, but it always seen themselves as heterosexual as attracted to women to women often were in more mainstream in a heterosexual marriage is off and have children or working as man and exploring their gender identity and expression separately from that and they had their own clubs usually outside of Boston in the suburbs and and so forth and and their own networks and they were quite separate relay that there was a very I didn't see that group is particularly part of my community. They didn't see themselves as particular part of my community and and so separation and it was by no means it is changing.

15:26 Slowly but surely but but some of those divisions are still in place because of that long history of it's not that it's changed and and I often said that when we were talking about risk factors, I think it's well-known that color are most at risk for violence in the community that piece of doesn't get talked about as much as their social environment sexual environments different relationship to the community. The police were targeted in many different ways. And so in terms of violence, it's really trans women who are attracted to men at and end them first and then of that group particularly when the color who are most at risk, and I'm so

16:26 If you are someone who came out to a different Community from somebody who who was living in a more mainstream Community working at a corporate job your concern for difference and I don't mean to minimize them. Your concerns were currently fearful about losing your your job your children or grandchildren are there's there's a lot to lose and there were those who did but but if they hadn't lost those or if they were fortunate enough to retain them even after being open about their their gender identity or expression that it came from a place of relatively more privilege and very different than the life of those of us who were Queens.

17:13 Yeah, there's almost like a strata of different communities within the lgbtq Plus at the time which would you know, we wouldn't necessarily use that language. There has been so much change even in the last thing about the last 30 years the last 10 years the last five years. There's just so much change and

17:37 One of the questions. I know we both here commonly problem folks who are cisgender or straight seeking allies ship is like, how do we I can't keep up with the terms. How do I know what terms to use and certainly over your own lifetime? Your own language has adopted. I'm so how do you respond to folks who say I can't keep up with the language?

18:02 Well, you know why I usually try to say is that at some people say that and it as a genuine in a sort of I want to keep up with the language and I struggle and that's different than somebody who really doesn't want to be bothered and is frustrated that if there's an expectation that they should and so I think if it's genuine I am always happy to offer opportunities for our folks to be thinking about and what are other situations where where you know, somebody somebody got married their last name change or it where I got other things change people change their name is a lot of different reasons pronouns to and it just there's people adapt to things if they really want to and and if you started set your mind to it, but I think it's a different response to folks who who are really saying that out of frustration and wishing that would all just go away and usually from them and say well for you, this is a frustration

19:02 But for a lot of us, this is our lives and our experience and and places us at risk for people to deny who we are and it's discrimination and oppression. So it's not it's not simply a convenience or a temporary thing ends and kind and so if you know if your we all should be making an effort to better understand each other and and and I certainly more charitable somebody is trying and slicks in the moment that can happen to any of us and that's different than somebody who just has been trying and or wear purses is refusing to yeah. I sometimes draw the comparison of you know, we didn't have the word Google 35 years ago and now it's a noun and a verb and we've managed to adapt to that. Why is it so different when it applies to my Identity or the identity of others in my community? Sorry, I think trying those comparisons of the last name with marriage changes is very human and it is

20:02 The part of all of our realities weather member of the lgbtqia plus Community or not helpful to draw those comparisons, but certainly you can see it in folks when they're coming at you with a question that is grounded and give me an excuse not to learn or change or grow vs. Give me the tool to learn and change and grow up. I want to also think about the work that you do as executive director of badly, which is the bottom line for lgbtq plus used you work with with young folks everyday and see if they have seen so much change within the youth in our communities. What are some of the common themes or questions that you see you coming too badly with, you know, it's it's our 41st years and I've been the Bagley since it began. So I'm looking back.

21:02 Over 40 years of working with young people in and then the decade before that when I was a young person myself, so I feel very privileged because I've seen generation after generation of young people coming out to try to understand their experience Pines Community reduce their isolation build relationships and and and make make healthy choices about the next phase of their lives. Hopefully, you know, and so I feel like the young people in the 80s in a reflex the larger Community when when Bagley started the adult community was moduli the adult community didn't have much didn't have legal protection in a very very few people were able to be out in open on their job fix be fired it Community was mostly centered around bars and clubs and and the more casual

22:02 Things to get together. So if the adult community didn't have much and so young people coming out also didn't have much they'd even Last Stand so they were trying to find if they were too young to get into the Bars were they trying to get it sneak into the bar is where they find him meet folks in other ways and a place like that. He was an opportunity for young people to me in a safe and supportive environment. I bet that gradually started to change in the 90s as the community is referred secured first legal protections based on sexual orientation and end as more people wear out and visible and we started having folks that were elected officials and others both locally and nationally and so that the experience of the adult community just lagging behind in the sense that young people are are I often say young young people are off and on the front line because they're there if they're in there in there.

23:02 Families and if they don't have a supportive family than they have very few options there in communities there on the streets there in schools. And so whatever the false or wire challenges in a community they often get this refers mainly targeted and if they really don't have family support or other support think they can end up struggling with homelessness or housing insecurity struggling maybe try to find employment without the job skills and getting dropped off at school then experiencing violence a Health Challenge. This is so far. So I think young people what would always amazes me is how resilient young people are when I think of how incredibly challenging experience that so many have had and and how many kept coming back haven't been able to not just survive but pride and and continue to do so that being said,

24:02 I'm always in remembrance of those who've lost ones who didn't make it through the AIDS epidemic of the 80s and 90s who didn't make it through in many ways the challenges that we that were so pervasive that and continue for many today. And I think it's important that we're lucky and Boston and Massachusetts to be in a city in the state it appear in Boston North River Massachusetts to have more relatively than many other areas of the country not all that many others. But but if you're in the situation and unsafe family situation or Community or school, then it makes no difference. You can be in Boston. You can be in Massachusetts with all the all our legal protections all our resources, but if you don't have the basic support you are at as at-risk as anyone else in any other situation.

24:55 Yeah. I we see this assumption that do Boston Massachusetts. You must just have it so easy as members of the community and you know, reminding folks that individual experiences are going to bury wire wildly across the Spectrum and we are in the only state that had to defend our rights The Ballot Box with for her for transgender rights in 2018. So what does that say? It says that even these so-called Progressive liberal hubs are are not safe and not as as easy for them. Otis people assume them to be in about such a great Point around in a the same because we also have to recognize and especially what I'm seeing now young young people have have an expectation with which they should which I I'm I'm happy to say that young people young people have a range of identities, you know, not not just being LGBT or two if that's what they're saying.

25:55 In terms of Our Community Resources. They're also people color their also women. They're also struggling with mental health challenges or or family family challenges or or many others. And so and young people to be and all of us want for to be able to live authentically around who we are want to bring her. To wherever we are we what do we need all of our identities to be valued and affirmed and celebrated? We don't want to go to a queer organization and that and experienced racism from white people. Don't you don't you don't want to go to an organization mix. Sexism or misogyny? You don't want that. We're anti-Semitism or somebody who doesn't understand the mental health challenges. We are experiencing work or physical disabilities lately I could go on but but what I'm seeing with young people today, it's a real in a positive way insistence on B.

26:55 Bully scene for all of who they are and an expectation that any organization program or service that say their service thing in the LGBT post is is that they're at it's that they're around the full range of experiences and identities it that they that they represent them and that's a change because back in the day really in there. If you if you came out to a community that was centered as your primary identity and and and and and many of us myself included in a we're not affirm for other parts of our identity because that there just wasn't the cultural competence or the space or even the capacity and I'm so I'm so glad to see young people really pushing that forward and then whatever space they show up in to make sure that that

27:44 They are full of cells can be recognized and celebrated. We can't turn off just like I can't turn off the fact that I am white or you know, all of these aspects of our identities that need to be recognized either for the intersections of marginalization or the the intersections of privilege. We are hold packages. We are not piecemeal we are but I think that's such an important Point especially as we think about rights and equity and use of this is where we need to go and that term resiliency and resilience. Yeah. It's a grapple with that because I think it is so important to celebrate the resilience the community and that doesn't mean that people who didn't survive for what

28:44 Reason doesn't make them less than us. It it just means the world around was not ready and unfortunately people were lost on the way that are a part of our hearts are part of our community and we stand on their shoulders and I think gray said I don't know if you would agree with this, but I think I like to indulge myself working for a world where we don't have to be resilient in order to survive where we can just be ourselves and not have that struggle that goes with resiliency, right? Absolutely. Yeah, it shouldn't it shouldn't have to be a battle for any of us for the basic things that we all we all just need and deserve maybe we all should have housing and food and clothing and shelter and a right to an education and employment and and positive family relationships and friendships and Community relationship. Like we should we should all have those things and it should

29:44 In and out that it should all be easier life is challenging and in many ways, but but it certainly shouldn't be made more challenging by by real systemic barriers. And one thing that really I do appreciate in the community that increasingly that the conversations are turning to intersectionality and a recognition of of the the fullness of the clear people. And and and so we're we're trying to figure that out with a long way to go. But where have I am, especially in the historical moment that we are have been in even the last year too. But really I'm really starting to see so many folks trying to figure this out and move forward in a different way.

30:43 Absolutely, and I I it gives us life but it also saves lives and it it's my hope again at your week. We can move Beyond resiliency and two in our struggles are are similar and shared but not grounded in the Marshall Eviction of our identities that the intersections of Oppression. So I think that's what we came for and we have a long way to go just because we have the word intersectional just because we're thinking about intersectionality in the community doesn't mean that we are there yet. It just means that we've we found the book and we started receiving, you know, we haven't come to the end of this journey absolutely love it. So, you know just kind of thinking through some of the teams that have come out it from this conversation for me and end in the many conversations that we've had is the

31:42 Claiming our our royalty and claiming our community but also understanding that where we've come from has been a place of struggle both internal and external bad, but lgbtq + Community has not always been nor is it today unified it in the work ahead?

32:05 I think I I want to just explain that a little bit more as we come down here, which is that that complex history between the trans community in the larger lgbtq + community. And one thing that we've talked about is

32:20 Celebrating that history but also healing from that history and there's there's a lot of healing that needs to be done between the LGB heartbeat and bisexuality is is often times marginalize within a community.

32:40 And particularly thinking about the the word that I've often used in at each of us history is assimilation us and that you know, we have to recognize the beauty and complexity of identity outside of that kind of assimilation as to where you know, people were marching and Fries in like students high and like very heteronormative cisnormative appearances. And so I guess we're where has not healing come from and how has it progressed and where does it also needs basically answer all the questions Chris. I think there's always going to be $0.10 because not everybody's the same even within, you know, a given identity. We all have our personal experiences and I personally understanding of what those identities are. So ultimately

33:40 Ultimately, we can't really speak for anyone but ourselves, but I've been doing movement work when we are often called upon to speak for a broader groups and and attentions are often around inclusion around representation around really around strategic directions. Those who want to be part of the mainstream will feel will have felt a lifelong ice luge from the mainstream. And so for them success would be measured by by Bing Bing him in the mainstream, but being able to be who they are and and and the end those who feel like the mainstream of his problem that the system itself is is what causes depression and and discrimination and violence in and the system needs to be changed. The system is broken or at work would certainly never designed to work for people like us and and those tensions exist in the queer Community if they've existed in every movement.

34:40 Leaders arised those who are who are trying trying to sort of make make the make the system more inclusive and safer and those who are trying to dismantle the system or somewhere in between and and that can change Beretta lifetime. So, I don't know that they'll ever be the can't ever be real healing unless we have honest conversations about those different strategies and how they impact people and every strategy has its strengths and the challenges and so, you know, what it what are the pros and cons of each and who's left behind and who doesn't benefit when you pursue certain strategies and directions and you know, I just always feel like they'll collectively we all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us and so however imperfect we're all in perfect. We all make mistakes. We all struggle week. We all do the best we can with what we have at the time and what's know and some of us who live long enough we can look back in.

35:40 Oh, I would never have done that now or I would I think so differently about that now and so I think any movement needs to be a multi-generational movement multiracial multigender, multi all identities so that we haven't as much input as possible and we can value for the where we've been and where we are now and and have a strategy for moving forward. So it's a movement work is always going to be messy and challenging. So I don't know that we'll ever have full of healing but to the extent that we can at least have enough recognition of of harm that has not been done and in a way to move forward it means open and honest and and challenging conversation and learning at least trust that we we have a shared we have we have some shared Vision or shared go even if we have different strategies to achieve it.

36:31 Again, I like thinking about like the words that that keep coming out all your different responses hear things are messy. The movement is messy identities are messy language is messy but it's trying to make make sense and and make things a little less messy by having the words to describe it. But that there's Beauty in the mess right like this. If you just ignore the mess, we just sweep it under the rug you're not going to work at 2 to make sense of it as much as possible that you got to embrace it a little bit before you can even start to work and I think that that that helps me to hear doing this work and Ed being part of this community to say, you know, what,

37:21 I'm getting there. It's going to take time. I'm still figuring out terms. I'm still figuring out myself and end the work ahead. But that's okay because of regeneration has has grappled with this and come out a little bit stronger for it. I'm 63, and I'm still trying to figure it out and I I've been so fortunate to be able to learn from young people as well as my peers as well as people who came before me and and and I for me I think of it as a whole fabric of of of a a multi-generational community over time that that that that we've known each of us has a responsibility to try to leave the world in a little bit better place than we found it and move it forward and and and try to do that without causing harm and inevitably going to we will but how do we how do we respond when we do and how do we move forward and I'm so hard to see especially were thinking of trans non-binary communities that there is

38:21 There's some really strong leaders translators trans women of color or really young Franklin College with always been leaders in our community, but who are are being recognized in a different way and and so when we think of leadership, I think we all have a responsibility to send to the leadership of folks who are experiencing the most depression and and and and whether that's around skin color around gender identity and expression sexual orientation economic status at and so many other dimensions if we're centering the leadership of those who are most impacted most most most challenge then then the rest of us will benefit as well.

39:05 Absolutely hate we are we are lifting our Queen's the royalty that they deserve and understanding that we have a long way to go before they are truly celebrate and safe in a way. I feel like I'm anyways the the activism of the late sixties and seventies with the sort of my generation. So, you know jumping into things. I need the activism of the eighties and nineties, which is the Gen X group and you know, the Millennials are having their moment and I feel like we have the emerging Zoomer generation is making their mark it always excites me. I hope I hope I live long enough to see the next phase because in that there's so many smart brilliant talented young people who are coming to the fore and challenging the systems and thinking in in new ways and and working together with OSHA been doing the work for a long time and end.

40:05 I hope they respecting the experience and we all bring to the table and I will will move forward that you would not be where they are were it not for that the activism that you've done in the late sixties early seventies in the eighties nineties and the Empire that you have built that you have built with badly and with so many others in this community to ensure that there is a place where folks can come where you were used to be celebrated on her explore and learn from from you and from others in the community. How to do this work and how to do it. Hopefully better and not make the same mistakes right looks truly a collective effort any kind of community and social justice movement. It says, you know, it's it's the collective and now they're at their individual leaders who rise up in that particular times and places moments.

41:05 But it's really what we all contribute in the various ways that we do the kisses full word. When I think of the movement even even in the last five years like we can we don't have to go back 50 40 30 or even funny even in the last five years when I have seen the kind of movements that have developed and the kind of energy that people have brought to the challenges facing our culture and Emma and our community and that gives me hope I completely agree it gives me hope it gets keeps me waking up and doing the work as well. So I am deeply appreciative to the youth court or behind-the-wheel driving this forwards as well as the folks who who gave them the wheel who built the car to give them the way I think that's fantastic and work. We're celebrating word honoring but something that I feel like not a lot of people talk about or have the opportunity.

42:05 I hear more about so I really appreciate Grace you sharing your wisdom sharing your expertise and sharing your your royalty and resilience with me and with some of the other. Thank you for having this conversation with me, and I'm so glad we've been we've been able to work together for so many years. I'm so many of these issues and I really appreciate this opportunity to talk more about really so much so much that affects our community and and is still before us that we still need to do. Thank you. Thank you.

42:43 I felt like we were wrapping up nicely there. So.