Sue Shellenbarger and Dan Shellenbarger

Recorded July 7, 2005 Archived July 7, 2005 00:00 minutes
Audio not available

Interview ID: MBX000249


Dan Shellenbarger interviews his mother, Sue, about her activist work.


  • Sue Shellenbarger
  • Dan Shellenbarger

Recording Location

MobileBooth East


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00:04 I'm Dan shellenbarger. I'm 39 years old. Today is July 7th 2005. We're here on the grounds of the Ohio Statehouse in Columbus, Ohio and I am the first son of my mother who will be talking to her and I just turned 61 yesterday and the date is July 7th, 2005. And the location is the same location as my son on the State House lawn in Columbus, Ohio, and I am the mother of my son my firstborn.

00:47 Mama, I wanted to kind of follow a little bit of Arc of your life that I wanted to kind of concentrate on the volunteerism in your sense of justice. But I like to go all the way back to Dayton, Ohio and talk a little bit nasty alert about your you're growing up. Can you tell me about your father and your family or siblings? My father was probably the strongest influence in my life. And what one of the things that was the most pronounced him at him was his sense of humor. And that kind of no matter how bad things got there was this humor about it. So we learn to laugh a lot and maybe it was inappropriate at times but it always turns out that we were laughing funny things.

01:36 You know it it's terrible but my father, you know, he was the second generation polish and you know, so you can imagine when he came here or when you know, he was born here. I'll obviously but they lived in a Polish area and of course hungarians within a Hungarian are the Italians live in an Italian area. So there was all of those kind of things, you know that they wouldn't joke about about each other which which you know, you look at this now and it would be very on PC and maybe even bigoted you would say, but but there was you know, a lot of that a lot of it like if if you know where mistakes happen for something, you know, he always turn it around and and we just, you know, make a joke out of it. Would you ever make a joke fact that he was a Pollock.

02:34 I can remember when he was older and he had a friend named Max that they would trade Tomatoes or something or there's a guy across the street. Do you remember this at all and that he used to talk? And it did it seem like crotchety Old Man River couple Max's but maybe the one you're thinking about is Max his hunting partner. So, you know, he and a few other men would go hunting all the time and they used to get up early and then go to all parts of Ohio. They'd ask the farmers. Can we go hunt in your fields and all this end and they would well later on as they got older these hunting trips that they weren't quite the same because they were older. I guess they didn't you know, what a tramp along as much as they had and so they would just stay in their car and open the door.

03:26 Text would be a pheasant. I mean it was like it was Roadkill.

03:35 Which you know, maybe that was the first roadkill. Actually, they were drive by hunters. He had dry by hunters. Was there a story once about that Grandpa would shoot an animal and then he would keep on saying he would she could take it out of the bag and and they keep saying, where are you kidding?

04:02 And it means I was pulling out the same one. I mean and if you know, it's funny too cuz everything's giving I do remember that he and his friends would go hunting and I always thought well, we're going to eat the food. He hunted it'll be fresh but it's like they never brought anything, you know, they never brought anything back. So I'm not quite sure what kind of you know hunting that was really said turkey, but he never you know, shut turkey. I remember having a pet duck that disappeared one that was at Thanksgiving or actually we had duck on Easter.

04:37 And it was it was very good. It was very good as a premeditated when we got the doc that it was going to grow up to be food was that set of thought or is that you know, and actually the suburbs at the time and you know foul you're just you know, you didn't have chickens and ducks and things like that in your yard, but we got that. I don't know how we got it but it was a baby duck it grew up and then it was too big of the suburbs that had to move on.

05:05 Pretty places. I remember hearing that that grandpa had them a number of different jobs butcher. He had done a couple of things and there was an and a warning that his Grant his mother gave him about working in the fields about that while I wash the what was the story about washing the onions off of his hand, I made this remember that no, no no no. No, I mean cuz I remember that just as a store that was handed down and yeah, cuz he didn't he didn't like to he didn't like him. You know that the garden and yeah, cuz I think our Aunt talked about that and said that something about yeah, you know, we didn't like to go to school the other onions the smell of onions on his hands and it was something will you probably remember that is actually

06:05 And smell off your hands and that was it and I'll give you a new bill off your high school you go to school to talk about the weekend will be a standard weekend at the winter time. We had I had three brothers and an older sister and my sister and I I I was just talking to her this morning and I said my God you remember do you remember it was like we had to sleep in the same bed. And so we put a string down the center of the bed and whoever crossed over that stirring. It was really bad, but we on the weekends, we always had our chores to do in the boys would you know, you know, they'd have to work outside maybe cut the grass or whatever and my sister and I would have to maybe clean the house and then one of us would have to bake the cake or something and then you know, everybody was always kind of working but then, you know later on in the afternoon. It was like, okay, we worked hard. We got the job done my father we had a

07:05 Are piano and so they would at the end there had this little rug on the floor. So they would roll up that rug and you know, what the music he would always always have like a chug a beer or two. I mean he go out and get the Chug a beer but and so then we were just I mean there was dancing and there was a music and it was it was about it was it was a great great fun are friends with you don't neighbor friends would come over and it was very good memories. How how important do you think family was from that was very imprecise to us. The family was very important that family you could always depend on your family no matter what happened in his family. It was that way and you know instilled that in us, but also he there were he was an insurance salesman when you know when they go after they got married and now

07:59 So he worked a lot but and he was offered promotions. He did very well. He's very successful, but he always turn them down because you know, that was family and if you know, you know, he wanted to have a good time. He wouldn't enjoy his life. So that was part of the priority list for lunch every day, and we went to Catholic schools and he would pick us up for lunch. Bring us home weed eat and then the sweet thing I remember is my Mom and Dad. It was like he'd always lay in the store not loud and sit back in his chair with it the ottoman up, you know his feet up in the Ottoman and then he'd always a lien my mother Eileen that you can come and see you no come here and rest with me and so I have this these visuals of mom sitting on Dad's lap, you know, both of them resting and it was like, you know power naps or something like for 10 minutes or something.

08:59 I need to take us back to school and he go to work and if he was yes, it was every day. Let's talk about church and the Catholic you you were brought up in and parochial schools. What do you think early on? How did how did the church shaped the way that you looked at life?

09:24 You know the thing about the Catholic Church, they emphasized, you know, thinking of others before yourself at least when we went to school. That's what it was. You don't think of yourself you think of others, you know, so that died that you were it was instilled in you it was like this if you remember the Corporal Works of Mercy, you know feed the hungry clothe the naked, you know, give shelter to the homeless blah blah blah blah. And so you were always thinking about and then in the school's fundraisers for the lepers like Africa or the poor someplace and I mean, we would sell seed packets, you know for the missions or something like that and the UNICEF they still do that this little UNICEF Halloween instead of going out and begging for candy, you take a look at UNICEF box and ask for money for the poor and

10:19 So anyway, that was really instilled and my father was very involved like with the school and he was like on the board of the orphanage and he was on fundraisers at the school and involved in the PTA. One thing that I was thinking about today is there was some problems like when my sister was in the eighth grade and it was that the 50s and there were two gangs and there was not games like it was like James Dean, you know time and all this but they were the parents of the 8th graders were very worried that these girls and boys were hanging out with the wrong people and there was a drugstore they always come out so my father called the parents together, he got the priests they came to the house. They figured out how we're going to solve this problem. They came up with some solutions and and I mean even talk to the drugstore you're not going to close it a little bit early. So I'm in here that you know that the community came together.

11:17 Solve the problem. So it's good. I mean kids weren't happy about it, but

11:22 It was a solution. Did you did you ever feel defiant about anyting growing up? Did you ever feel unjustly? Did you feel Define about the church or your place in the family being the second born or you know, I was always pretty quiet and my sister was more, you know assertive than I was I was second. I was a Sunday I was born in sin. But so I kind of watched what she did and if she got in trouble man I wasn't going to do or I was going to let my parents know so, you know, I kind of stood in the back in the church, you know later on in life, you know, there were you know, I didn't quite agree with everything that's going went on and is going on now even so would you want to be what what what did you want to be I want to be and that was totally different back then and it's hard to understand that but when I went to school, especially in high school probably

12:22 Play maybe I don't even know if the percent I went to an all-girls ice. So I don't know if 2% but I don't I know 50% of those girls did not go on to college and my father didn't encourage us to go to college. Did you just going to meet a man and get married and you'll be staying home and raising them? So that was the attitude then so and what were the options were at least where we lived and I know it was different where we lived but where we lived it was nursing teaching becoming an Unbecoming a house wife a secretary. And that was it and I must say when I was pregnant with you and we move down to close to Louisville and I went to get a job. Actually. I didn't know I was saying was just right after I got married and I went to get a job in the man. It was for an attorney and he said well, you can hire you you're going to get your going to get pregnant and then you'll quit so I mean the attitudes were totally

13:17 Different it's hard to understand that this was a different era. So, what did you do when you graduate did when I graduated the first thing I did we went to Cape Cod some of my friends and we had summer jobs there and it was wonderful. I mean I couldn't because I love to travel and I love the east coast and I love the ocean. And so this was great. So then I came back and find a job finally found a job at the Cape Cod so we can hear you were fresh out of school hadn't really gone alone many places and you're out there what what were some of the things I happened that summer?

13:56 What are you doing? I had four of us for girls one girl from the public school and three from the Catholic school. So we end we all stay together in a little cottage and we all had jobs and my friends and I are the my friend who lived across the street the girl from the public school. Anyway, we we had a jobs at the same Motel as chambermaids and then the other two had chambermaid jobs, in other hotels what we just had a blast we had a blast, you know, and I love the ocean every day. We would go to the ocean every day. We would go to the center of town in Hyannis. We went to we stayed in Hyannis and of course it was during the time of Kennedy so we would walk over to Hyannis Port and see you know, the little story Mobile bill through Kennedy mobile. Poet whatever if they had with all the children in it and it was fun and we went to go to mass once and the Jackie in and John were there the present was there so

14:56 It was really it was a neat time to be there wasn't there a story where you got a ride home with some kind of sundry characters sweet week. We kind of we kind of did things that probably you know, your pin your parents wouldn't want you to do, you know, this one time our bosses gave us bought us tickets for The Highwayman and it was going to be in this out-of-the-way night place and so he took us there and he said no. Do you have a ride home? And we said sure we have a ride home. We thought we would meet someone. Of course. We didn't some of my friends and I were in heels. We are walking down the street and it's just like, oh my gosh were in the middle of the country. We have no clue of where we are and you know people would stop to ask us if we wanted to ride and we'd say no cuz we were afraid and it was dark and so it seems it. So I think there was like a policeman or something that picked us up and said you should not

15:56 Do this and then he dropped us off and then at this other place and somebody picked us up, but is that when you also went to work for restroom, and then yeah.

16:10 That was that was another time. Okay, cuz I Was a Highwayman this was the Kingston Trio and so we we got there and it was like we had to go to the bathroom. So they said we'll go upstairs is to the left. So we went upstairs to the left and we went in this room and we were looking around we thought you know, I don't see a bathroom and then we realized we saw all these Madras shirts hanging in his like, oh my goodness. We're in the Kingston Trio's dressing room is take a shirt. We need a souvenir but it's like no we can't take a shark. What are they going to wear it? So it's like okay. Why don't we take the label? I mean or what? I don't know but we took a little label. It said I still have the label to the hundred percent cotton. Nobody believes me.

17:09 And it was so teeny bopper, you know 18.

17:16 So after your wild summer, you came back to Dayton and in what did you do? I found a part-time job. And then I finally found a job at that news. The Dayton Daily News in retail advertising National advertising and it's all in the same floor. And you know, I was like a receptionist there but also a secretary and headcount the ad, you know advertising there. Were you and you started to become politically active at that time. We can politically active when I was I was trying to think I'm trying to think of a year with that George Wallace had that you know, he wouldn't let those children that looks little black children into the schools that segregation and I was so upset with that cuz you saw that on the TV on television and I was just very upset with that and you know what that time and I'm trying to think of it was in the eighth grade. I think I was and I wrote a letter to him and said wait a minute. What country do you live in the sea?

18:16 United States the States of America every buddy has a rides. What are you trying to do these children, you know, so, you know, you just knew right then that this isn't right by this is going on in the United States of America, you know, so then my sophomore year, I think it was Kennedy was running and I became involved in his campaign. And and that was that was really interesting, you know being involved with that a young age. And then what was it like it was it was the opener. It was very organized Democratic party Montgomery County Dayton was very organized and broken down into Wards and like it is now that there was a very active we you know, he he came to town this isn't another interesting thing, but he came to the city of town and are they had these the girls they were called the Kennedy girls and you know, you you had little this and you know, I think that's a little skirts and now

19:16 They said you can be accounted a girl and good but it was on Friday during school. So it was like what am I going to do it? So I asked my mom. Okay, Mom. I want to go and she said yeah, I have to ask but none in the nuns wear habits at the time the nuns were scared and ask them because I thought this is so political. You know, this is something good. I need to learn about this but they said you're going to be counted absent you're great at malabo. So it was like I didn't go I wasn't a Kennedy girl, but you know an election day.

19:57 I handed out the just a little campaign sticker without a sticker but whatever it was, you know something stood back, you know where you're supposed to and I can remember I'm a very mean man saying something very derogatory about Catholics in the pope coming if you get Kennedy in there and how you know that separation of church and state was very important to get a Catholic and was like the worst thing in the world. So, you know, that was another thing in my father's paid tuition to send us to Catholic schools and never would he consider that the public schools should turn Catholic

20:38 You know what? I mean? It was a strong separation of church and state and that's the way it should have been. I mean, that's the way it is and that's the way the Constitution so to see what's happening. Today is quite worrisome to me now. I don't remember being very young and in and I don't recall any political activism in the house. Where were you playing? I mean, I was three so I just didn't like understand. Well the first time when you were when you know during the Vietnam War, I actually am I had you and I had hurt your brother and you are 15 months apart. And I remember the first little house that we rented and it was in the sixties, of course and during the heart and heat of the Vietnam War and this is when they publicized the war.

21:28 This is when they showed the the the death on both side. This is when they they showed the body bags. This is when they showed the Carnage they really knew what war was and I thought for

21:45 For gosh sakes. I just gave birth to two sons and there is absolutely no way that I would want this experience to end the way I was seeing on television.

22:00 And it was it was an it was horrible and I thought that pregnant at that man up there going to Canada. Cuz a lot of people did go to Canada. They didn't believe and what was happening. So I kept boy. They're my kids.

22:14 And then then my friend I had a friend who invited me to a visual a candlelight vigil and I think the American friends service committee had it and Dayton and we March down the street and I think that was the first demonstration I went to

22:31 But you know, I'm really involved now because again, I was thinking today, you know, it's a demonstration is part of democracy.

22:40 So, you know, I really believe in democracy thinking back then the mindset then in the early seventies. What did you did you see yourself as an American did did you feel patriotic in any way shape or form through your acts of of demonstrations? You know, I I I I don't think I never thought about the word patriotism patriotism Patriot because I think for me it's not I think I always felt that we were all one. We were all created by, you know, some people believe, you know, God some people believe a higher power of higher Spirit. But, you know, we were it's like we're alright I feel as though we're all one.

23:27 So I you know, I never kind of differentiated that the United States is different than Canada. I mean politically it is but the people are the same all over the world. And so that's why I wore bothered me because how would I feel it? If somebody came over to the US and did what we're doing any other countries?

23:46 So you had all of this political relatives and I'm going to step back just for a minute. Do you remember the day they Kennedy was shot? Right and I was working at the news was a good place to because boy was there's a lot going on and yeah, it was yes it was.

24:05 I remember I had to make it I had to I had to take a report up to the sixth floor where the Executive offices were for the Dayton Daily News. And one of the execs was Executives was getting on the elevator and he said my God they shot Kennedy and he may be dead and it was like what you know, but and so everybody was just like so quiet. It was just a quiet and then going home on the bus. It was just so quiet. It was so quiet. It was so sad was a very sad weekend lot of Tears public crying, you know, it was just very sad unbelievable. How did that make you feel as an American?

24:47 Well, I mean, I think just vulnerable and maybe it was like that the system, you know, the political and their leader and my God, he was shot and killed, you know on how can that happen? Why did it happen?

25:04 I thought he was supposed to be protected. So it was just I still you know, I still wonder how could that happen where you were freed?

25:15 I wasn't afraid now.

25:18 I thought I'd feared it and I'm I'm not if I don't I'm not afraid so you had all of this some activism and all this social upheaval that's going on or around you in the late 60s through the mid-60s the early sixties. Why didn't you go down south and March and the various marches or anything like that will actually before I got married I had decided that I really did probably want to be a social worker and plus I did love to travel but because I actually wasn't a social worker degree. You can get a two-year degree and be a social worker and you could get a two-year degree in art and you know, that's that was dating. But anyway, so I figured let's let's figure out how I can do this with spinning, you know going to school. So I I just I just started inquiring and I did find a program. I mean I've been acquired into the Peace Corps and I wasn't accepted because they said lack of experience maybe another time and so but anyway find a program.

26:17 Drew University of Dayton and I went to night classes for about 9 months and then I was there were two places. I was either going to be in Birmingham or El Paso and it ended up that a lady and I were going to be at a Little Learners Preschool like in Birmingham and it was during a well 64 63-64 University during a real terrible time in the south.

26:52 But anyway, so then I met your father and I said you're not going to go away for a year, and he said I'm not going to wait for you. And so I thought I should do this a day.

27:03 What was life like?

27:12 So, yep, so I didn't go. How did the children change your life?

27:18 You know how it it puts life into perspective. It it made me realize what parents go through and what my parents went through it kind of whistle. Whole circle of life. You could you know, you could just really kind of understand understand it and their responsibilities of raising a human being is sister is serious business and you only have one shot at it and you don't want to you don't want to goof it up to be a mother before

27:52 I like when you were growing up and you thought that you would would be amused want to be a monkey. I figured I would be a mom.

28:00 So so then you move to Waynesville with with Dad. Why? Why did why did you take the family from our comfortable being actually in Dayton where we lived was going to be a busy street and there was sturdy was pretty dirty and your brother, you know had asthmatic bronchitis a knife and then we had Karen Arthur and it was like, I want some cleaner for her. So it was the seventies and it was back to the Earth or whatever back to the land. And so we got three acres and we went back to the land and you know, we had our garden some new chickens in the pony and all that and I think it was 27 years there. You were all involved in 4-H and we were involved in 4-H for 15 years and involved in the community there the school so, you know

28:54 And all kind of things in Warren County to and what did the school involvement teach you about political organizations?

29:03 Okay, so, you know, it's another culture. I mean every time you move into a new neighborhood it's a different culture. It is really a different culture. And so you really have to kind of step back in sometime Outsiders are not welcomed in your ideas. You know, you can't bring your ideas and sometime you're not appreciate it. And so some things were okay and some other things weren't, you know, we we had we got a land lab going with the help of the Lions Club and donations from various in and it was wonderful cuz they had what a wooded Ravine on the land the school and in so I thought this is a great opportunity and how all the teachers and classes could use that and boy that didn't go over at all. So, you know, I think that a lot of the people were just used to be teaching the way they wanted to teach and there was maybe two teachers that appreciated the concept

30:02 But you know it's change, you know, do you think people can be taught to go through change or to initiate change to can people change their minds change the faucet in the beliefs that a certain point in our lives. I mean you have to be open if you're not a willing participant to explore what change is what the options are what it means the consequences of good or bad whatever. You know what I mean? Some people just don't welcome change because it means that maybe they're afraid maybe they're afraid it's going to be different and they're not used to that either used to what they normally do. So

30:47 For me, I like change cuz it's stimulating and I think it's you know, I don't like to stay. So we'll jump ahead 27 years. The kids are grown in the house and Dapper Tire San what do you decide to do when in your golden years? So I'm standing out in the backyard and I'm thinking 3 acres to cut all this waiting to do. You know when we came here we came for the kids. So the kids are gone. What are we doing here? So dad that you know what retired and it's like, okay, but now what are we going to do? And he he told he said I always wanted to be in the Peace Corps.

31:22 Okay, so we took two and a half years. We got the Peace Corps and we were we were we went to Morocco and it was it was at the very it was a very good experience as far as being exposed to another country. I had no idea. You know what Morocco was like and that the contrast and the Muslim, you know religion which was one of the kids is hospitality. And so they it was a wonderful and 84 people went over all ages. We left early. We ended up getting into a place where you know, we questioned why why did they send us here and some of the other people in Morocco that were in the Peace Corps also question that and so at that time we felt like maybe we needed some more support and it it didn't happen. So it can you tell

32:22 I told everybody that they were locked in a room and somebody was driving around in a jeep shooting off a gun because that sounds like a good story but I don't actually what happened. I mean where we were where they put us within this tiny. Well, we were in this town and it happened to be run. I mean, it could have been run by any political anywhere in the world somebody that's very Arrogant with a huge ego. All right, so it and he was Arab he wanted us to speak Arabic and we were in a Berber home which they speak a different language they speak to isolate and so these were wonderful people they were they were there because they couldn't they couldn't live in the sub-sahara. You know, it's the Western Sahara so they emigrated there. So these the family loved us and we got along fine. We were there about three days in this isn't the kind. He was like the mayor the ruler of this area he came in and he said what language are you?

33:22 Speaking in this house. And we said Patrick hate that and he said you need to be speaking Arabic and then he started going on telling us, you know, all these words in Arabic and and we had to be speaking here of it. And it happens at the woman that owns this home. She ran out of water which you know, this is the desert she ran out of water. She needed to have water brought to

33:47 And this kind would not give her he controlled the water. He would not bring the water finally, you know in the middle like not mad at 10 at night. There was some water that was brought and he made her pay a whole lot of money.

34:03 Well one night we were sitting there in our little room that they gave us and somebody stuck their hand in the window and gave us a note and said you must leave you can no longer stay here and fight by what and they said we're going on vacation and we're not coming back for a while.

34:24 So, you know what just went from there and it was like well, you know what and then you know, they just gave us one little tiny plate of food and a hat like one little tiny piece of meat in one little tiny potato in a lot of gravy and one a little chunk of bread. And before they were, you know, giving us two things of food. So I thought while something really happens here, there's something we're at the welcoming cuz I'm just went out the door and

34:52 So the next morning we got up. I mean, I didn't sleep all night and the next morning. We got up and went and called. Our our guards are person from Peace Corps and she came and we had to we had to leave we left and and then it was just like and then it just kind of went downhill from there and it took us two and a half years to get there and man so fast, I wasn't ready. I was just so upset was ready to leave you or upset. You came back to America lived in the Peace Corps of my house prepared a million.

35:30 On drywall walls and helping me repair that and then you decided to kind of finish out your experience, but doing it here in this country because you know that the Peace Corps spend so much money on you and I felt like I was near cheating the taxpayers and I thought and so what we did I thought you know, we found an Americorps program to to being in that it was a New Mexico off. It was three miles off the jicarilla Apache reservation and it was in a very poor area and Ashley they have e-coli in the water with you. So it was you I thought well, you know, this is and we went there and it was a wonderful wonderful experience and after that year and you know, I felt as though we did dumb.

36:25 We had another we had a Peace Corps experience cuz you know being with these young kids to the young teachers and things and the thing about

36:35 These experiences

36:41 I'm sorry.

36:45 These experiences another time, okay.

36:56 Did one of the things you know, cuz I don't know if you were going to ask me this but I'm volunteering about the the variety of experiences that we've had in service in 1995 for 4 years in the summer time. We went to the crow Creek Indian Reservation up in South Dakota and we have this strong interest and Native American from Ohio. We don't have any reservations here. And actually we have no knowledge of what what is it? You know what it's all about in the culture so we can kind of concentrated on that focus on that. So we would find these programs and so for four Summers for week in the summer, we went up and in digital summer camp of children a friend of ours and there were other volunteers there and then we went to Chinle.

37:44 The Navajo done a reservation and we did all kind of things they are they had was like an Outreach Catholic charity thing and they had like a food pantry and thrift store and we were at we did a substance abuse program in at school and alateen and every time before we went South Dakota. I knew it was a man. His name is Guy Johnson heat Randy. Am I don't know if he's still down there my Miami Valley Native American organization and I told him we were going to South Dakota. He's in South Dakota. And I said, please tell me what what should we be like their what should we do? What we should have said you go.

38:30 You be quiet and you listen.

38:34 And so we did that we did that and we NM I found that when you go into a new culture, if you go you be quiet and you listen and going slowly and really listen and not question a lot. But just listen and it it it has been remarkable you you know you use as we used it in Morocco. We used it in Chinle. We used it in Dulce, New Mexico and it's a wonderful thing. Our goal is like like and they'll say in Lumberton were the three goals in the Americorps program.

39:17 We talked to the principal there. She said you come these children need love you. Love you love, you know, so I got simple you love the kids. So that would be the number one priority go you love the kids. And then the second one was to learn the culture that was for me personal and then the third one was to see the surroundings, you know, the Landon and what's around there. And so that is always been a real.

39:42 Wonderful thing cuz you can get so much out of it, you know, especially these the cultures and the diversity and you learned so much and you think this is the United States and every neighborhood is that way I came in Columbus on our uses, you know, every neighborhood is different than in there all cultures to be explored. What would you say to your first grandchild? I might have provided by me. What would you say as he is going out into the world and he's looking at the Choice becoming a corporate Giants and Robber of land in people's lives or volunteering and giving back. What would you say should be some guiding through your experience? I remember two things that stood out with my father is

40:33 Don't follow the crowd. That means you can't go into corporate. You don't follow the crowd and question.

40:42 And you really you really think then you really start becoming an individual and you really start becoming your own person and you develop a sense of a strong sense of you know, who you are and and and was like, what is right and what is wrong, you know, do you understand what I'm saying? It's especially when you're not following the crowd in your questioning.

41:11 You know.

41:13 Mom thank you for making me none on conformant.

41:17 I love you. Thank you, Dan, and I love you, too. Thank you for this opportunity.

41:23 What do a timer for 40 minutes?