Richard Smith and Lanny Kutakoff

00:02 My name is Lonnie got a cough and I am 59 years old. Today is October 19th 2006 and where in Boston Massachusetts and I am related to my co-presenter today and that we work together for an organization called partakers.

00:22 And my name is Richard Smith. My age is 31 today's date is 10/22 2006. I'm in Boston, Massachusetts, and I work with mr. Laney College call at party cuz I think

00:42 I just don't know what everybody else knows why we're here today, but we certainly do Richard. We're here because as we've just stated we work together as an organization called partakers, which has a very specific mission of reducing recidivism for prisoners in the way that we do that is through education and Civic engagement and I think that probably can set the stage for our future conversation here. So let me start by asking you a question. I remember very vividly the first time that you came to interview for the position that you're currently assuming in particular you were in pre-release you were looking for a job that you could hopefully continue on in after you got paroled you were at that time very self-confident, but I know that you are clearly not that same person today that you're in a half later. So my question is what do you think has really happened to you in that one and a half year.

01:42 We first met well.

01:46 I think the most important thing that happened is having the actual experience of working with people in the office specifically Laura, who is my boss inside the office. She's been really great as far as being patient with me and helping me to develop the necessary skills to perform the job to my best ability. It's funny because in the beginning we had a lot of difficulties because I was completely oblivious to the whole office etiquette for the simple fact that working at partake. This was my first legitimate job ever. And so, you know just as a result of working with her and having her constantly, you know inform me of the proper way to do things according to the office rules.

02:32 And eventually getting the hang of it and allow me to feel a lot more confident and more.

02:40 More valuable to the organization shoes and I started to see my value to the organization. And I think that was what I struggle with in the beginning trying to figure out how I can be an asset and if I actually was an asset to the organization I know your value, but maybe you can share a little bit more with me as to how what you perceive your value to the organization being right now originally. I thought that

03:06 You know, one of the things I could contribute to the organization was the fact that I spent a substantial amount of time in prison and I would bring that perspective that insight to the organization Bennett we work with so many people are incarcerated and I could explain some of the ins-and-outs of the whole prison environment from a personal experience. But now I'm starting to realize that my value exceeds my own personal experience of being a former prisoner, but it goes as far as you know my ability to present. I love that part. I love the fact that I'm able to stand in front of people and present relevant education the information that you know, what help people become more aware of the issues that our existing within the criminal justice system within the prison system. And then at the same time, I had my own personal experience to give a little credibility to the things that I'm talking about.

04:05 Well, if there's anything that I have been acutely aware of it certainly how well you do do that. And how we've come to rely on you is are a kind of poster boy. We need to spread our wings and get some other poster boys that you have been such an exceptional addition to the park again. What you bring to us. I wanted a shift a little bit cuz one of the things that you and I have had a conversation about and it's been pretty recently is how the ten years, you know, you went to prison when you were 20 and you know, if 31 you've been out for a. Of time that's the differential in the years are but you you shared with me how you think that it was kind of like somebody put a developmental pause on your life on those 10 years of seeing the Fallen by the wayside into some kind of boy dark or a gap. So I guess I guess what I'm curious to know is how do you deal with that now that you're out and you've had this. Of time.

05:05 Seems to have been captured by something and someone else and now you're you're back into the fold.

05:12 Wow, that sounds good question because I think there were a lot of things I think during my incarceration. I had definitely have the ability to learn a lot of new things and you know, like prior to my frustration the highest grade that I completed with the 8th grade. So, you know for the most part the first book that I've ever read in my life was read while I was incarcerated, but I also had an opportunity to meet with a lot of different people who taught me so many things about myself and about, you know the world so I think ultimately as a result of that as well as my college experience and Boston University's prison education program, I learned a lot about myself and learned a lot about the world and it definitely changed my perspective on things. So I think intellectually I grew

06:03 However, socially because I lacked the necessary experience has developed the social maturity necessary to just like, you know adapt to the outside that was a challenge for me and it's funny because one of the things we used to say while we were in you know, I'm not going to get out and try to play catch-up. I'm not going to get out and try to you know, get to the same level that everyone else is on the outside, you know for the simple fact that they've been out there for the last 10 years and I've been here so it's just natural for them to accumulate a certain amount of things in to be more aware what's going on within their Community than I am.

06:47 But that didn't happen. I think it's really hard to get out and see that there's so many people who've Advanced especially people that I knew when I was out, you know, we going to the same level but now I get out and it's like I'm starting from scratch, you know, just a simple fact of getting out in half and then get having to get like my basic stuff like identification. That was a very distressing process for me because I never never had an identification card before I didn't know the procedure and something as simple as that challenge me and it was it was really stressful and I remember not being comfortable asking anyone, you know for directions because I felt I should know how to go through this process of getting an identification card.

07:35 But I didn't I didn't and you know, that was one of the small things that may seem like insignificant the other people and Society, but to me, it was like a major obstacle and that was just the beginning because even today I find myself like wrestling with the idea of being 31 years old and not graduating from college at and you know working part time and just recently getting my own apartment, but I found myself wrestling with the idea I should be at a certain level. I should have my own house. I should be married. I should be happy, you know children should be in the picture now, but that's not the case because as you said earlier, I was on pause for 10 years 10 years of my life is on pause and although I develop mentally and intellectually socially I was a little bit stagnated. I'm always enlightened when I hear that not just about you, but the

08:35 The difficulty folks have in regaining a sense of self and Anna and their identity and the perfect thing he's getting a simple license and you know, how you have to have you walk in and they said, well, you have to show us two forms of this and three phones that and excuse me. I don't have those things. I got to start somewhere. I thought the license was a place to start. So I'm I'm so aware of when an obstacle that can be shifting gears a little bit and then this might be a difficult question for you, but I know you're up to it up to the challenge. What advice would you give yourself if you could change the past your past.

09:18 I think the main bit of advice I would give myself is that.

09:25 I was a person of value. I've always been a person of value and I think the reason why I would give that advice to myself is because I didn't receive that type of positive feedback that type of reinforcement positive reinforcement doing my early years and I think that devastated my self-esteem and this prison experience help me to recognize my my value as well as some of the things that I'm experiencing now on the outside, but definitely that because I think that was at the root of many of my problems outside of all the things that I experience which was outside of my control, you know, family experiences and stuff like that, but

10:07 You know just to be told and advised that I was a person of value and that you know, I was worthy of being treated with respect. You know, I was capable of performing at any academic level, you know, it's funny because I was talking to a friend last night about these very same things in

10:30 I found myself because I didn't receive that positive reinforcement craving attention and affection in you know, acceptance and reinforcements from all over the place. Unfortunately, a lot of that took place within the streets and I craved attention and acceptance of the wrong people and it led to a life of you know, you know gaming that acceptance but then being accepted in the crowd that was committing crimes except in the crowd who was also lost misguided didn't have healthy self-esteem themselves. So we would just like the blind leading the blind running around craving for something that could help us feel whole help us feel valuable help us feel connected in to give us a sense of an identity that we were all laughing.

11:22 So it's good hearing that. I mean, I understand that I'm a sociologist, you know, I understand how groups lead lead individuals. So if you could change anything about that, it seems like it would have been near impossible. You know, you were in an environment your environment was kind of contaminated. So to speak by the fact that the folks that were most close to you were running the path of crime right from the get-go. And I know that even before you served your lengthy and then you would like to stay you would serve time in other a little shorter and shorter and so I guess it's not easy to go back there and think about what how you might change that time other than to say I remove myself from the environment through and try to find something better or worse store have the the strength and I don't always believe its strength that takes you to a place where you can move to a different place, you know, I applaud you.

12:22 I just think of all the fear that how you managed from the place where you started to the place where you are today the other day we were talking about astrology and it's because I never think about you thinking about astrology because I always think that you're so much more deep now in pursuing other ways of trying to give him meaning to your life, but it was interesting because we talked about, you know, your sign and and what that meant in terms of where your values my fee and how that might predict your future and at least some way but I know and I think there's other ways that you find meaning in your life through whatever that Source might be. So I don't think you'd be adverse to talking about it with me if I'd like to hear a little bit more about how you shape your life right now and and what gives it meaning and you do you Embrace any kind of religion. Is it philosophy is it what is it that keeps?

13:22 What's Richard into a a different part of the world?

13:27 Well, you know coming from household where we weren't really religious God and spirituality was rarely spoken about in, you know, when you get into a situation like prison and being 20 21 years old and knowing that you're going to be incarcerated for the next 10 years of your life. That's a low point and at that point in my life. I realize that I needed something other than what I was accustomed to grabbing onto as a means to to save me and help me cope with my circumstances and you know from the very beginning I started to realize that you know, I needed something greater than myself, you know, and that's it mean is erection of religion in the beginning years in my conservation. I was heavily involved in religious Services specifically Christian Services, and I just read

14:27 Bible all the time. I just tried to find something that could help me make some meaning and some sense out of my life and this whole experience so really doing is definitely at the core, but eventually I came across.

14:47 An African religion in ancient African religion call the asari religion through my travels and one of the key axioms of this religion was a man know thyself.

15:00 And we're not had a better understanding of that. I realized that there was so much about myself. I needed to know and that it wasn't limited to one specific religion and once a specific ideology of philosophy in that, you know, the goal was for me to seek any information that could teach me about myself but most importantly the main information came from a lot of introspection a lot of looking Within Myself and making a spiritual connection by changing some of my habits some of my behaviors meditating fasting all of these things gave me a greater connection to myself and help me to gain a greater knowledge of myself and today, you know you today to talk about astrology. I don't you know, I don't discredit anything, you know, I consider all things as being valuable information that can help me gain a better knowledge and understanding of myself and I definitely see astrology is a part of it is it's funny.

16:00 I've always kind of felt a connection to it. And then after reading about this Army religion, which who were like the someone to found us the ancient command in ancient Egypt, it would like the founders of astrology and they will really firm on making that connection between us, you know, and the different planets and how they affect us. I'll behave psychologically in and it's funny because today I see so much of a connection between you know, my sign is being a Gemini and how my personality is so you know what I asked that question. I was really just trying to get me some more insight trying to gain a better knowledge of myself and I guess at the key at the end of the core of Mine Development. Is that quest to gain a knowledge of myself.

16:54 Do you do that by yourself? Or is this something that you go and you're with other people and there's some kind of structured way of getting deeper into the religion. So to speak or is this really a self-paced thing something you've assumed that your own on your own and for yourself? Well, I definitely know that it had its roots and a place of isolation. You know, I'm doing my incarceration. I was placed in confinement for lengthy. Of time, and I was alone I didn't have much I didn't have anyone around me to really refer to to talk to so I was forced into a process of introspection. I was a fool. I was forced into a process of searching my soul to gain a better knowledge of myself in

17:47 So it started out that way in although today. I'm very comfortable with you know meeting with other people of different faiths and different beliefs in us, you know doing on that going on that journey together, but I can always do it alone and I think my greatest moments of peace or when I'm alone and when I'm allowing myself to get lost Within Myself in a sense and make those deeper connections. That wouldn't come I don't believe from reading a book but reading the book of self.

18:24 Well, another thing that I always wanted to ask you and I think I've heard your answers sometimes, but maybe not as directly as I'm going to get right now. You know that I've spent many years teaching in prisons Behind the Walls Massachusetts facilities, and I was always so impressed with the perseverance in the the absolute passion that my students in prison head sometimes. Sometimes I am more often and not with tell friends that it was the best population I ever talk because these are folks that were hungry hungry and passionate about education. So I know that you spent a lot of time in classes through the program when you were in prison and are continuing now that you've been released what what did that that one thing aside? From what I'm just learning about, you know the isolation and how that brought you to a different place spiritually. What what what what's the educational about for you as it was then and is it still is today?

19:24 I think education and that since you know presents it signifies opportunity.

19:34 And this is funny because a lot of times people talk about choices and people place a lot of emphasis on individual Choice, especially when you talk about, you know, criminal behavior in people, you know, getting in trouble and stuff like that, but I always say that, you know one can only make an adequate choice if they are available, you know, they are aware of the options, you know, if I'm not aware of what's available to me the options that are available to me. I'm only going to make a choice unlimited Choice based on what I see in front of me education is open my eyes to the mini opportunities and it's been like an opportunity and itself because it allows me to get into certain doors that I wouldn't necessarily get into if I didn't have that education.

20:25 So in that sense, it's helped me a lot. It's taught me how to cut me how to function once I get inside of those doors too because I think that's something that a lot of people on a privilege to have and it's funny because I saw it doing my incarceration Hound just the self-esteem of individuals who are educated when it came time to interact with people who was supposed to know other people who were educated it felt so much more confident and you know the interaction with so it was a healthy interaction and it allows them to to advance and whatever they were trying to do and that's something that helps me today. You know, that definitely helps me so education has been like a perfect means for me to understand, you know, what are the opportunities available to me? So I mean your friend if you're mean and not yell it for me. I took him in as is it.

21:23 Sense of empowerment it really gives you the wherewithal to the feel good. I like the way you just talk about that when people are educated. Another educated people are a part of the conversation. You know, it makes you feel like you can you can fit in and I know that you went into college in college you went into prison with as you say anyth great education, so you not only started your Baccalaureate program it and in prison would you had to go through the rigors of a GED and I remember your telling me the stories of how you did that and when you got that because that always warms me and I always feel kind of light-headed when you tell a story about how it wasn't a single effort on the part of Richard Smith that you had that you had a Cadre of folks behind you until I want to talk about that. I think that's something that people do need to hear is far as you know,

22:19 Contrary to what everyone believes about men and women incarcerated that's a really caring and considerate people who are in the prison system in unfortunately, it takes them to be disconnected from the environment that bread, you know, the Deviant behavior in order to recognize their potential to truly become connected to themselves so that they can be compassionate and considerate and you know, like I said when I came in and out of me for that occasion, you know after going through Counseling in the spiritual process of development, and I realized that I wanted to help others. I wanted to get involved on the outside and I needed a formal education in when I was in school in the outside that I felt really inferior to the other students. I didn't feel like I was capable of functioning at the same academic level as the other students. So it led to me being a special education.

23:19 Ultimately dropping out of school in the eighth grade. So when I made that decision and I wanted to get a formal education I realized the first thing I need to do is to get my GED and that was a very intimidating process because you know how I am. I was 23 years old at the time. I had been out of school for about maybe like

23:39 Eight or nine years and I didn't feel confident. But what I had Learned was, you know, if you don't know anything I ask questions and that's that's what I've become. I became like this big ball of questions. I was like a child. I asked anyone who I saw at what I thought could help me I ask some questions did you know in prison with other prisoners? So, you know, I asked a lot of reasons I asked God to an old ass if you know and if you guys really took time to help me they took time to teach me basic math skills, you know, they took time to help me increase my vocabulary and ultimately they took time to just help prepare me for that GED test and I never forget the day when I actually got my GED when I found it had passed the test. I came back to the unit the unit where we will all how is that and I told the guys I think I got my GED and you know, this one guy

24:39 Last he was like man, that's not your GED. That's our G because we all equally helps you to obtain it and it was cool. And I appreciate it that I think it's important for people to know that beyond the stereotypes. There are people in prison who really care and they want to help that's no down. I sound that too when I was teaching you might have said this already. I don't know. I'm trying to to get through zanden process some of the things you always tell me. There's a lot in what you say, but it was there any one particular lesson or valuable skill and I don't mean skill like, you know performing something but was there any one thing that you believe was top above anything else that you walked away from from your prison experience that really puts you into the place of who you are today?

25:38 The one particular skill was reaching out to others by helping others because that was the most rewarding experience and you know helped me to realize that I had the skill of connecting with other people and assisting people with their struggles and that ultimately defined what I wanted to do with the rest of my life and that was to assist others with dealing with their struggles as a counselor.

26:06 So I think that would be at the Forefront because once I started to realize that I had this gift to have the skill of relating to other people because I have been through so much myself and you know prior to that I would ask myself. Why did I have to go through this? Why did I have to experience this abuse? Why did I have to have this type of whatever but at that point I realized it was relevant to me being able to connect and identify with other people's struggles and that identification fact that allow me to you know be of some assistance with helping them to endure and get over there issues and I think once I experienced that it was so rewarding and it was so empowering that it like reversed all of these negative, you know attitude or stereotype that I internalized about myself being a thug being a gangster, you know, and I realize that I was so much more than that that I was a person of substance and I was a person who had a lot to offer

27:04 Society

27:15 Well, one of the things I did was I involved myself in a lot of self-help programs and certain prisons. They have, you know, they present spaces for men to me and you just talk about different issues. Like one of the programs was called family awareness and we would meet every week and we would discuss different issues involving, you know, our families and you know, we all found out that a lot of the things that you know, a lot of our problems stem from her early childhood experiences. So, you know, that was definitely one of the forms that allow me to realize that I was able to help others.

27:59 Guys, you know one of the things that you do for us and and knew I would guess one of those make Paramount here is that you've progressed into being the program coordinator for our our Premiere program, which is college Behind Bars. And what that does is it puts you in touch with guys that you've you know guys that you know from the from where you are and not where you are and I and I always wonder is that a comfortable thing for you that that feed into what you just talked about is helping people. Do you see yourself almost as a counselor in shepherding these guys 3D experience that they're going through because it's a lot of dialogue that happens obviously in a very controlled way because you can't call me on the phone and you're you're doing it through correspondence and let her but is that a good thing for you? Or does that kind of bring you back to the experience sometimes and I'm kind of way you down but it is a two-fold or

28:59 Does Atarax do I just put words in your mouth about that might weigh you down sometimes definitely. I think it's is very well. I don't think I know it's very important before I left that prison. I always said to myself. I need to find a way to stay connected to these people Behind These Walls. Unfortunately in the meaning of my closest friends and I save money because I have a lot of close friends who are incarcerated or serving sentences that suggested they will never be released life sentences or they're serving really lengthy sentences that they were they received at an early age. So it was very important for me to remain connected to these individuals and connected to the prison system itself. One of the things that really encouraged me and empowered me was seeing the senior former prisoner come back to the prison.

29:55 As a civilian so to speak in speaking to us and I said I want to do that. I want to be that person that gives other prisoners. Hope I want to be that person that comes back and says, you know what you can make it despite all the negative statistics the recidivism rate statistics you can go out and you can be successful and you can only be successful in staying out of prison, but you can help others. So working at partick is in being the position of program coordinator where I'm corresponding with so many people and prison that's just the tip of the iceberg because it's allowing me to stay in contact with all of these people and I love the fact that they feel so comfortable knowing that you know, one of them so to speak is that the other end and I can relate to what they going through and I know what to say in regards of trying to encourage them when they going through some of the struggles, you know, in addition to just helping them with their education.

30:55 So it's a blessing.

30:59 That's absolutely in lightning. And I I hear you say these things and I and I digest them but they never get fully digested because trost to such a wealth of information in and sit you boy me you really do you just mention this and it's this might be difficult question for you, but we should have his arm rates are really outrageous. They Massachusetts. Actually, they're lower than the national average. We expect that within three years 50% of the guys and when they get out who returned the national average is closer to 70% Do you ever ever worry that something is going to put a bump in your road and you might be drawn back to something that might ultimately put you back behind bars if it ever cross your mind.

31:51 No, it does. Not at all. I mean I'm too busy thinking about how I can help like what's my next project we can I do this cuz you know kind of reverse the stigma of former prisoners and allow people to see that they are people who are capable of not only functioning on the outside once they've served lengthy sentences in prison, but also being assets to our community and our society. I'm always trying to think of a different way in which I can change that statement. I can help I can serve someone to the point where thinking about going back to prison and getting involved in something. It doesn't cross my mind and you know, it's funny because I think a lot of times people allow themselves to become overwhelmed with those thoughts to the point where it can become a reality they can create their own worst fears by thinking about it so much that it becomes real.

32:51 And then I can find themselves, you know gradually going back to a lifestyle going back to certain settings that could bring those realities into existence. I am so I don't even think about it. You know, I don't even think about what's lightning sword or take it to her what really has for you been the most difficult thing since you've been free. What is there one thing or is there just a mirage things that have come across that make life more challenging than you think it would have been then you thought it would have been I should say I think

33:31 The most challenging part has been reconnecting with my family.

33:37 You know, I'm very connected. I'm very close to my family have a large family a lot of cousins. I spent a lot of my years early is babysitting nieces and nephew who are now old cousins will now like grown and it being away for 10 years and not having much communication with my family members. It kind of really damaged our relationships. And so I spend a lot of time trying to connect with people, you know, I called and I called and I called and it's difficult also being in Massachusetts be in Boston and most of my family being in New York and New Jersey and out of state.

34:20 But it's funny because my grandmother says wow, you stay in touch with everyone, you know any people in my family or not even in touch with each other people who out who's been out or not even to touch with each other as much as I am and I'm like I call people. You try to connect people kiss. I really believed it family is like so important. It's like at the core of you know us creating a community with an AAS, you know World in our society healthy community and you know, I need my family to be connected. I love family gatherings. I love to hear the children playing and have them jumping all over me and stuff like that. So I think that was the most challenging part because before I left to go to prison I had that relationship I had that connection and it was kind of odd at first coming home and you know to me it never ended it. I felt like yesterday but to them so many experiences hat

35:16 Taking place that you know of the connection wasn't there to the same extent it was so that's what a big challenge trying to connect with people just kind of trying to connect with my family and I'll let you know when we both knew the victim of the biggest obstacles of guys and women have coming out is re-entry and and re-entry is very often tied to family and it doesn't happen as well as it might otherwise happened to I've watched I watch tell you've gotten connected to your family have met your I can't even remember if some of your real brothers your half-brother. Is there your half bother you this but I've watched night and I've watched you speak it at occasions where your family members have come and I've looked at them in the audience and my God, they have been so proud of you and why not because you or something to be proud of

36:09 What is been some of the most?

36:12 What were some of the happiest time since you've come out of prison I would say the happiest moment was they were to one with my family reunions. That was the greatest that was like one of the greatest things just being around everyone and we were in Atlanta Georgia. That was like overwhelming Joy, but another happy moment. I had the privilege of giving talks and workshops in New York in the same communities that I played a role and damaging and to be received by

36:51 You know the people of that Community I spoke at a at a high school and they were enough students Dead with teachers there and to be able to give back or to help to rebuild and repair some of the damage that I've done.

37:07 Was amazing, you know to see my family members in the audience and have them smile and talk about how much they mean to me. And you know, how much I want to contribute to repairing the damage. It was it was an amazing experience that really touched my heart and it empowered me in and made me feel like I was back home and I was here.