Mary Grace and Bruce Butin

00:05 My name is Bruce boutin. I'm 45 years old. Today's date is August 30th 2008. My location is Springfield, Massachusetts and my relationship to my partner is my mother.

00:23 I am Mary Grace and I'm 70 years old. Today's date is August 30th 2008. I'm here in Springfield, Massachusetts, and I am the mother of the interviewer. Thanks Ma.

00:43 Knowing that you had a very rough childhood from personal experience in the stories that I've heard tell me about when you were younger. Did you have a vision? Did you have a dream that got you through all this that is something that you were working on as a goal in life.

01:02 Well, when I was little I just knew I was going to be a mother. I knew that was my mission and this life and it's all I focused on I never even considered. I might not conceived. I just knew that that was to be my mission was to be a mother and although I was raised very for

01:25 And I got married at 17. So I had my first child at 18 and then I had a daughter and I had my youngest son at when I was 25 years old, but my mission was just to be a mother and I accomplished that no being that that was your your mission and you've mentioned your children. Tell us a little bit about your children.

01:53 Well, as I said, I was 18 when I had my first child and nothing nothing ever prepares you for motherhood. It was the most fantastic experience when he was born the love. I don't know where it came from but it just poured out and it stayed it's just the love of a mother for a child is almost religious-based I think because it is just so awesome.

02:26 And a year-and-a-half later, my daughter was born.

02:30 And I've got to say they were very two different children.

02:36 Totally. Totally different and if I had not been the mother and knew who the father was I would have probably thought that they were adopted or something and then along comes my youngest son and they had wanted they suggest an abortion because I had had radioactive iodine for my thyroid and also had the Rh factor and in those days they didn't have ultrasounds and they told me the chances of my son or my child ever being normal either physically or mentally. We so slim that they suggested that the child not be born. But of course with motherhood in me, there's no way no way I could take life of my child. I didn't create that life. God created and who was I to take it away, but that doesn't mean it wasn't human and I went through hell for those.

03:35 Nine months. I kept going back and forth. Should I have kept it? Should I have Let It Go, I was Schumann. I did not want the care of of a handicapped child in anyway, but when he was born

03:52 I counted his toes and fingers and we waited several months before we found out that yes, he was perfectly normal and you called this child what my Miracle child and I wish what do I wonder which child that was going through the trials and tribulations of motherhood. And you said your first child was much different than your second child. And I know you lost a couple children in between and then you had me and then my life was a big complication in and you know, someone's medical somewhere other things and coming to find out that I was homosexual. How did that affect you as a mother to find out the one of your children really was a lot more different than the other two.

04:45 I remember when he told me he was in the Navy and he called me on the telephone and he said Mom I'm gay and I just started to cry and he said mom don't cry it is it's not that bad and I said I'm not crying cuz you're homosexual. I'm crying because I know what the world is going to do to you and I don't want that to happen to my child. But I love you regardless of who you are. What you do your sexual preference your sex your color. It doesn't matter. You're my child. And that was another one of my big tests. We are given opportunities in this world to strengthen our interview resolve and it strengthened my face.

05:34 And I am thrilled to have had all three different children because I have had different Joys and different challenges with each of them. Now. You've written a book called The Wounded chalice. And from what I read. It's it it's a very detailed.

05:56 Story about your life that were doing in a Reader's Digest Forum right now in that book. It does break down each child the things that you went through with each child the trials and tribulations of that in this book. I think you've done it very well. I think you you come across not only by telling stories but giving people hope knowing that they're not alone and there are so many diversities and raising children. Everyone is going to have their own personality. You can't use one as a basis for an X cuz he each book is a different book for each child.

06:41 Now do you feel that you you accomplished your mission mission to this point and do you feel that you have another mission coming up in the future prize than me. When I discovered that I had another mission. I had gone through a considerable amount of challenges. I had lost my home the IRS chase me with a federal tax lien for 5 years, but you add a happy note. I do have a letter of apology from the IRS and it's on my wall but that wasn't just for you not being able to pay your bills. There was that there's a bigger story behind that which was your ex-husband and the and his attorney and how they were able to turn loan of x amount of money into almost double or tripling that that loan and he defaulted on it and it never came back on you cuz you were the cut you were the sign of the loan.

07:41 Mortgage free home all the money in the bank. I was forced into emergency housing into the projects as what we called it.

07:50 And during this time I it was suggested by the medical community that I have a hysterectomy because I had a hole in my uterus and it was very natural for me. I just said no not unless you give it back to me and of course that sent kind of ripples through the medical profession. I even had the pathologist call me and talk to me for half an hour or saying why why do you want your room back? The only thing I could tell him was my room to care of my children. That was too very very first home.

08:31 It knew them before I knew them without this organ. My children would not be here today. So you actually ask the doctors. If you could have your room back I did and which one did they say to that? Well, they gave me some static, but he eventually agreed to it and it was funny because I thought I could bring it home with me, but they wouldn't let me and my friend of 50 years needed to go to the hospital to pick up my uterus, but my children didn't know what I was doing. I had not told them any of this so I had dug a hole in front of the Statue of Mother Mary.

09:16 And I put a rock over it and save the sand because I knew in the winter time. It would be Frozen and I asked all of my children on Thanksgiving Day. Please come and be here all at the same time. They didn't know what I was doing. No, we didn't and to me I wanted honor the first home that they knew the part of me that took care of them. But I also wanted them to honor it because it was honoring me but it was also honoring God who created women to carry the Cradle of humanity. So it was many things but I got to admit when I finally realized it's that with my three children. I got scared and I started to cry cuz I said, oh my God, they're going to think I'm crazy we did but they loved me enough.

10:12 To follow to to go along with me and they came outside with me and participated and I wrapped my uterus in a cotton handkerchief that belong to my mom. So my mom participated in this and of course now, it's gone back to Mother Earth, which is where it came from to begin with. In fact when I moved my oldest son Steve says my we're not going to get up you don't have to

10:44 And after this I had gone on a Mother's Retreat and was told by the divine feminine mother Mary whatever you wish to call that my stories were so unusual that they could help a lot of people and I was to write a book. Well, I tried three times and life been in the way. So when I retired three years ago, I honored the commitment to mother and that's where the book The Wounded chalice came from. She gave me the title. And also there's a chalice on the cover of my book and she guided me to find the Chalice now mind you when I was told all this I did not understand it. It's looking back that I can see all the symbolism when she guided me to the Chalice. It was broken.

11:35 And of course that's where the wounded chalice came in and then the Chalice holds the blood of life.

11:45 And so does the womb and my room was broken just like the Chalice was broken. And this is where all the symbology came to play for me. I

12:00 Just followed my instructions even though sometimes I really didn't know if I was hearing correctly. But as I was guided that's what I did and now the book is here in physical form.

12:16 And I also have a website ww.w the wounded jealous. Com and my mission now which levisay I thought my mission after my children were grown was done. My mission is to get the message out to especially the women to honor themselves because without them there's no future human race.

12:42 Now does it does this Mission scare you yes and tough but now I need to get the message out there. So I need to Market it and the computer at 70 years old is quite a challenge for me. I don't quite take to it like the young people do and that's weird.

13:10 The biggest the most amount of people are out there that I can help is through the mass media through tell him I don't know it's not telemarketing. It's

13:23 Networking networking on the computer and although I do like to do things personally one on one.

13:33 I have gained so much through all of this process that I want to give. Hope to women that.

13:42 No matter where you are what state you're in what circumstances you find yourself in? We all experience the same emotions and if I can help you keep you any kind of Hope. Look at those the IRS chase me for 5 years and they gave me a letter of apology. I lost my home all the money in the bank, but I'm still here. I thought I needed money to retire in a mortgage bring home. Well, I'm retired three years and I'm still here so don't ever give up hope and if you wish to contact me, I would love to hear from you because this is my mission is to allow.

14:29 Are to make women aware of coming up to the masculine the masculine and The Feminine neither one above the other the strength comes from the balance of masculine and feminine being side-by-side. Did you ever consider that since God is everything?

14:55 And God has made us that God is also feminine as well as masculine. But because he contains everything.

15:05 And this

15:07 God is wants us to be in balance and there is such a thing as the divine feminine and divine masculine and we both have strengths that can help one another grow and be strong.

15:23 So what is next for you? Besides all of this? You must have to have something started for 2 seed for the future. Well, I do have another book in me. This book only goes to a certain point because I sense a mother requested me to write this book. I followed her directions, but I have been on many spiritual Journeys since I had to work 7 days a week to pay off the lawyers for the divorce and bankruptcy. I decided to continue working 7 days a week and going Journeys spiritual journey said I was guided to go on and I would like to get that out also know you're talkin about these Journeys are these Retreats with other people. Are you talking within yourself both but you do go on quite a few Retreats with other people and bring all of the energies together people who feel the same way of the same messages that they want to get out.

16:23 And don't you find that uplifting for you to come home and then to continue your work at home, right kiss. My greatest joy is in giving

16:35 I just and I think I'm not I'm not different from any other human when we give we feel good and my joy is in giving whatever I have and every single human being was born for a purpose for a reason and everybody has some message a different one. Perhaps you're one that's similar to someone else but everyone has a message to give to the rest of humanity to help us all climb out of whatever hole we happen to find ourselves in at that time. I've been very fortunate. I've been guided to go to China and Peru and Brazil as well as all your local Retreats and I have met so many so many

17:30 Important people who don't know their importance. Now when you talk about these people aren't didn't you also learn things while you were in China and as and I believe it's to Kong and the healing with the hands Reiki Reiki on your Reiki Masters that correct. Yes. I am and how many years did it take you to get to that level only been a Reiki master for probably ten years did the the training that you received in China for should Kong did that help you in the process of becoming a Reiki master to help heal others? Cuz I've seen you. I remember there was a dog in the beach that was dying of cancer. It was a it was a working dog for the disabled and I asked you to go over in to do some of your Reiki on the dog and it turned out that the dog went into remission from this cancer, and I was fine. So the two played into each

18:30 Yes, they do because you know what it is. It's so simple. It's love unconditional love when I went to China and I saw their hospitals with people laying on cots and so close to the floor and I was brought to see if she going Master they were no curtains in the room only wooden chairs and this woman was in the middle of the room working on a gentleman and when she turned around and looked at me she blew me away. I just cried the love in her eyes.

19:07 I have never really experienced and I think that's what Jesus must have had with his gift of healing with the unconditional love and that's everything else is techniques but the basis of all healing is unconditional love for everyone and everything. So if you love you're a Healer even if you don't know it look at them others how they hug their children or Huck everybody. Do you know that's healing energy that they're giving and that's why people feel good and they do it now. Give us a Little Love a Little foresight of this new book. What what Basics basis is it going to be bait be done on

19:57 Well, it's going to be the simplistic form that I can think of is all of my challenges and my Journeys Within Myself getting the strength.

20:10 Having the courage to listen to that little voice inside of me and every time I listen to that little voice it would get stronger so that I would hear it a little stronger so that I would follow it easier.

20:25 And on my website there's a free gift for you. I have been asked to wear this a tiara America. This one goes across your face with a with a is almost like an Egyptian Egyptians some design with a purple stone in the middle. And what is that represent 14 years ago. I went to this Retreat and one of the women there in bodies the spirit and Jesus came through and told me that I needed to go and get the Tiara that it was mine. And I went. Oh my God, no and the young man did not want to let it go because he had created for himself. He was a trailer and he created it to wear at plays and dramas and put Hefty price tag on it.

21:24 And I said, it's okay David. You don't have to let it go frankly. I was relieved cuz I didn't have the money for it. Anyway, I didn't want to wear something that would make me Stand Out 3 hours later. He called me back and he said I went and prayed on this I meditated and you're absolutely right. This was created for you.

21:44 So guess what? I didn't have the money I didn't have enough money in my checking account. I didn't have enough money with me and he was so small Jeweler who couldn't take my charge card, but he found someone that would take my charge card. And so I put it on.

22:02 And there was a woman there who could see auras, which is the life-force around living things. Right? And she said to me Mary that is part of your or you were missing it and you didn't know it.

22:19 But I was terrified I wore it and I get off the airplane and my young son Drew's who is hear me. He said oh my God, my mom's a hoe, but that's not all you were wearing. You were wearing your t r o u r in Ferb full purple you had feathered purple and white earrings and you're holding a staff a piece of wood that looks like the staff of Moses and I have to admit that I was quite embarrassed with you getting off the plane and I remember going to the luggage by myself. I'll just go over there and wait for your luggage and it was it was it was an astounding that how many people stopped and talked to you and remembered you from the plane and that we're just very very grateful for being around you because you must been giving off this energy that you speak. I'm so greatly I feel it. Sometimes were a little too close and our energies, but I do believe in it and I do believe that you have it.

23:22 That's staff that I had is a huge piece of bamboo and it is shaped like the snake had in fact it scared people on the airplane cuz I had what is alongside the wall of the airplane alongside the seats and one woman was scared. I had to move it cuz they had was scaring her but I have learned by listening to that little voice inside of me that when God gives me a gift I am to take it home and this was a gift to me from God.

23:57 I don't know this. I know it's Moses's staff. But what it meant. I have no idea. All I know is I need to bring home anything that God gives me because it's a symbol of something milk. Let's continue on the on the same premise of symbols.

24:17 I remember you went to a retreat and you came home and you had been quite upset. You told me that you had left the meeting left the building and was crying and begging God for a sign.

24:34 And you look down and found a baby owl that was still warm. It was dead, but it was warm and you actually brought it home and I have to tell you that all three of us all the siblings were very concerned that you were keeping this dead owl inside of a prism. It was just the outline of the prism. It wasn't fully enclosed and that you kept it there and we all knew that there was going to be bugs and everything else and I have to admit that to this day. This owl has never brought it out and it's still on the same condition. It was in when you found it.

25:13 Is this I'm used to going to Retreats and kind of being what I called La La Land in Bliss being with the people of like energy and loving energy this particular Retreat. I found my body just getting up and leaving when somebody got up to speak and under sink what's going on? I don't understand this and the person one of the people giving the retreat I looked in her eyes, and there was nothing there, you know, the eyes are the opening of the soul, but there was nothing there. I was so terrified. You're right. I was out walking in the woods and crying and wondering what was happening to me.

25:54 And when God gave me when I saw that little owl there I went. Oh, no. No, what do I do? I can't leave the gift. He gave me I brought it back to the hotel. This isn't it was cold winter time and I stuck it between the windows and I tell her telepathically asked what its name was and it said Star as I went down to the conference down to the retreat and there was a woman there named Starr and it went up and I told her what I did and she says you did what and I said, I can't refuse a gift that God gives me no matter what it looks like. So she brought me over to this table that had like these pyramids and she says put it under this and you will be it will be fine. So that's what I did and I brought it home.

26:45 You kids weren't the only ones I thought I was going to have bugs I did.

26:51 But I'm sure you've heard of the word secret the book and what you think is what manifest I fought with myself for a whole month. Every time the thought would come into my head about my God. I'm going to have bugs in a smell I would counteract that with saying God would not give me anything that would deteriorate like that. He gave it to me for a reason and I had it on my altar today. I still have it on my Altar and that was

27:24 17 years ago that I had got that.

27:31 And it's still I haven't combed its feathers cuz it was laying on its back at has a little indent in the feathers on the back of its head and I haven't touched it. So it's mine and this is a reminder to you out there. If God gives you a gift if he tells your heart or your gut or whatever to do something follow it there's a reason for it that we can't see. So, please listen to that little voice inside of you. You've got it. You just don't recognize it or you were afraid that people are going to think you're crazy like that but you know, I have to admit that seeing the finished product of your bark and I'm quite proud of you as a son and the amount of

28:29 So what I'm looking for attention that you're getting people coming reporters doing articles on you and you ending your picture being on the the bottom of the front page. And then you got a 1/4 page to a half a page of a story and doing television shows little local television shows and I think these are all gifts to you forget it for finishing your project and now they're helping, you know, the energy is changing and it's helping you promote about the womb and how important it is and how important our children are our children are our future if we let them go we have no future. It's just that simple that if we allow them to keep being destructive with drugs and violence and guns and having war within a within ourselves that it's it's just not going to be any good. So I think your message is very well very well received by those.

29:29 The buy your book those that have read your book. I've had a couple of my friends by your book and they've been very very pleased with it.

29:42 Mary can you tell us some of the biggest lessons you've learned from your experience as a mother and motherhood follow your heart a mother's heart never lies. It knows what to do. But we as women do not value our own inner knowledge and we let others

30:07 Decide for us how to raise our children and that includes

30:12 Our husbands are our mothers and fathers have the strength to listen to your heart when it comes to your children because you are all they have for the connection. You need to stand up for them regardless of your personal cost and believe me. That is Mother's Love is true unconditional love.

30:40 But did you find that right away or did you find that I mean having a baby is very consuming.

30:46 I'm wondering if some of this is hindsight, which is good because that's white where you're able to give your message. But but four for four people are just having babies and listening to this message. I think it's going to take them time for hindsight. You know, when they're one. They can look back and say well okay this that and then relate to your book because I can remember starting when my first child was.

31:18 Small I guess is I mean he was young I had kept trying to he was a nature lover and he just loved nature and all of its forms when we moved into my our new home or sell it was loaded with crickets. He wouldn't let us step on them. They took all my rags and the Brixton went in the driveway made homes for them and I couldn't pick them up. But he would I would show them where there was and he would pick them up and bring them outside. So I followed my guidance on that allowing him to show the sensitive side of him and he loved fish with a passion. My neighbor had fish and we were very poor. We didn't have the money. I had a $2 a week allowance from my husband. So I didn't really have much money either to do anything. But I knew that his whole heart was into having fish.

32:15 So I can't write with my neighbor and I saved through the only way I could say was through my grocery money and whatever and for Christmas I had him have a complete setup for fish. My husband was shot. He didn't speak to me for three months. Can you believe that my husband refused to have I had gone against what he had told me that they were too expensive and they were going to die, but my heart knew that my son needed that and so that I did everything I could to make sure it came to pass not that we had a lot but at least it came to pass and I tried to follow that even like with my daughter was not a girly girl. She was feminine, but she looked older brother's choice. You want to play with her dolls?

33:10 And I allowed her to do that because that's who she was. It didn't mean she's not homosexual. It didn't mean anything. It just means that she preferred the masculine things while still remaining feminine and then my youngest being a homosexual and he was a dancer. I did everything I could even after the divorce and the money was very tight and I was doing a lot of coupons trying to stretch the money, but he had his dancing less and he belong to a drum corps that to me was more important than anything that I had to do to get him exactly what he needed. So it is hindsight.

33:59 But it is actually following your heart in the moment and giving to your children exactly what you know, they need you know in your heart what they need to be whole so follow that

34:23 Who?

34:26 I have so many.

34:30 Well, of course my proudest moment is when they all stood by me, even though they thought Mom was a little off the wall and they were embarrassed by her. And so I've had many of those proud moments, but I had tried to get my college degree ever since I left High School.

34:50 And I worked and I would get a points here credits there and I finally achieved my degree when I was 52 years old and my proudest moment was having my children there with me sharing in something that I had spent my whole life trying to get a college degree.

35:17 I'm Bruce. Can you tell us what it's like to grow up with such a mother?

35:22 Well, I

35:25 I could always count on my mother.

35:28 I came from a child. I'm a problem childhood. I'm very problem. I was into drugs and things like that. And of course the homosexuality must have been in the back of my mind somewhere missing me up because I wasn't able to be me and no matter what it was. I remember when I called her one night and I was strung out on drugs. She dropped everything at 3 in the morning and came with me and she says we're going to we're going to get through this and she was going to we went to an NA meeting Narcotics Anonymous and it wasn't something that was for me. I was very very uncomfortable. And I remember this one lesson and it still plays in my mind today is she told me she goes

36:14 You've got to stay away from the people.

36:17 Who have the drugs if you stay away from those situations and those people who think that they're your friends really aren't your friends because they wouldn't be letting you do what you're doing. So today as a 45 year old man. I try to surround myself with people who will enhance my life and not bring me down and knows that do kind of bring me down. I've got to sit back and realize is this are these the type of people I want to surround myself with because it if they are then I'm only going to drag myself down even further, but my mom is always been there even when I didn't want her there. I told her to go away and leave me alone. Mom is always been there for me and that's why I'm glad to be here today to be here for her.

37:09 Cuz of everything that she's done.

37:16 Well, I'm sure they're going to have very many memories of their mother being very different. It's funny because most parents. It's the children that embarrass them on my family. I'm the one that I'm there with my children. I think we all did that I think even before Stephen was different Deborah was different. I'm definitely different and I think Mom is just the queen of different right now, but I think as we've gotten older we've all realize that being different is what has made us individuals and how can we deny you from being your individual it's time for you not to be a mom anymore. It's time for you to live your life. You know what has Stephen I do things for you at your house. We also try to support you as I am here today trying to support you with that.

38:16 I'm Stevens read your book Deborah, that's a different story. But I really think that we all look at you now as an individual instead of I mean, yes your mom but you're not mommy anymore. You're our mom and you have your own life to live and we support that 100% My proudest moment is that my children can see me as a person as well as seeing me as mom who loves them unconditionally and has learned not to try not to give too much advice because they are not where I am. I my mom's passed away ten years ago and still I look up and I say Mom, I didn't understand back then I wasn't where you were and then was like when I was adopting a

39:16 Child, I didn't realize things how my childhood was or how it affected you until I have my own child. So sometimes until you get to that place where the person's been. Can you understand exactly what they were talking about? It's good to keep in the back of your mind and when the situation occurs and you can bring that device for word to you.