Shonnie Lavender and Bruce Mulkey

00:05 My name is Bruce molsky. I'm 65 years old. Today's date is March 28th 2009. Where in Asheville North Carolina and my relationship to my partner spouse?

00:21 My name is Shani lavender. I am 37 today's date March 28th. 2009. Beautiful Asheville North Carolina is where we are and my relationship to my partner is his wife of almost 10 years.

00:39 So shiny

00:42 What's your earliest childhood memory?

00:51 It's it's interesting that you ask that because I think that most of my memories are connected to photographs So when you say that, I think I owe that Easter Since we're getting close to Easter and there's a story about Easter Egger eggs this morning on the radio makes me think of that. But you know what what I probably remembers different different than those. I remember things like playing I had a I'm an only child and I had a downstairs room that was for my playroom remind toy room. And now it's a guest bedroom when I was a kid there was nothing in there except my toys and things like that. So I'd be down there I play and with all kinds of things weather is dolls my dad made this dollhouse out of hell out of plywood. This is why it was four or two pieces of wood put together, you know, when an ex and then it had this orange hinged roof that you set on the top and it wallpaper.

01:53 The floors so it look like you know carpet and so yeah, I play with that and I remember a lot of time telling that earliest memories, but I also used to love to throw the throw the ball with my dad in the front yard and I do remember as I got bigger and grew up knowing we were first to throw the ball in our front yard, but then as I could do it further you back into the neighbor's yard, and I'll see how far you can throw it but those are some some childhood memory common things that I remember who you're welcome.

02:30 When did you learn your adopted and when you learned that what did you think? How did you feel?

02:37 I don't remember learning. It's something that I just have always known and I my parents always stressed that it was its what part of what made me special and I remember I remember the first adopted person that I knew a girl named Amy, and she and I were in junior high together and that was that was the first person that I was aware of who also knew, she was a top. I might have known other adopted people.

03:10 But you know it it was special to me and it still is I mean, I know my birth mom now and that part of my family so, you know, I have a connection there, but to me, it's that somebody for whatever reasons and I didn't as a kid I didn't really know a lot of the reasons. I knew that my my birth mom had been young but that's you know, I was sort of an assumed while she was young probably not really ready or able to be a mom and or to take care of me as a mother.

03:43 And so you know that she was

03:48 Thoughtful enough courageous enough to give me to a family who you know really wanted a child, but couldn't have a child and who would take care of me and probably at least from objective standards better able to to raise a child and be responsible for another human beings life.

04:11 When you were growing up, who is the biggest influence on your life? And what did they teach you?

04:22 I don't know that I could choose a biggest biggest influence and both my both my mom and my dad were big influences on me and so is my step dad but even teachers I mean I have my favorite misterminor was my sixth grade teacher and amazingly enough. He's to read a Stephen King stories, but doesn't seem like they were the scary stories. They were just mystery.

04:47 I think all those people don't even grandparents.

04:52 A lot of what I learned from them.

04:57 I think would be related to values. You know how to be a good person. What did that mean? And it was really a lot of relational things and my I'm really fortunate. I think people in my life have placed a lot of value on relationships friendships family and

05:18 I'm really grateful that they taught me how to be with other people be interested in others asking questions caring about.

05:31 What other people and what's going on in their lives? I remember to pack my mom.

05:37 When we used to go visit my grandpa she and I still amazed she's no longer live but and and maybe it was very easy for her, but she would mention all these relatives and I remember as a kid being who's that which way do I know that Uncle or do I know that person and is she really was genuinely interested in the people who she and my grandpa her dad had in common the people they knew but she want to know the story is it wasn't just stay. Well, how's it how's you know Aunt so-and-so it was let's let's get into the story. Let's hear a little bit more and I really appreciate that cuz I think it's it's help me be a good friend to people and good family member cuz I do care and it it definitely affects my job because that's a big part of what I do with listening to my clients has its really listening and

06:37 And not just for the surface things but hearing it where they have pain or maybe where they're hesitant to share. And so I think those people who are really formative in my early life. I have them to thank for being somebody who interacts well and easily with with a lot of other people.

07:01 You mentioned your mom.

07:03 How was it to care for her while she was dying?

07:07 Need to make me cry.

07:15 It was funny. I was thinking about this.

07:19 Interview, I'd actually thought about that thought about that time.

07:27 Hang on.

07:30 As much as you know, it's not it's certainly not something I

07:37 Would have chosen for her life or mine.

07:41 It was in some ways. It was really wonderful and then she got breast cancer and it already when they found it had already gotten to her bones and probably her lymph nodes. I just remember it was in her and her long bones and she that's how they found it cuz she's broken away.

08:03 But I was living in France and I came home. I was going to school there and I came home to help take care of her and it was really

08:16 You know I have said this before to me. It's the only way I think you can give back in a two-parent and they've given

08:30 So much. You can't you can't ever really repay a parent.

08:34 And so it was really special to

08:40 Do to help her cuz I mean she got to a point physically an even and not mentally but she was on enough drugs to control the pain that mentally she was pretty deep end. She was bedridden towards the end and you know, a lot of people don't like to think about it, but you know, she wore a diaper and so, you know, she was like a large human but like a baby in those respects and so

09:11 It was really I felt really honored.

09:14 Not that she might not have chosen somebody else at times but you know that she was certainly willing and wanted me to be there. So is really something.

09:26 I feel grateful for that opportunity.

09:30 Hey and

09:32 Really hope and think I did, you know do it with a lot of compassion and gentleness that a desire to return her the same kind of love, you know, I think she gave to me when I was that same kind of dependent as a you know, it's a baby an infant.

09:52 Is there anything that you didn't say to her that you wish you had?

10:08 No, I mean I did I took time to to say things to her.

10:15 I mean, I think their time is now you don't even though she's been dead now 15 going on 16 years that

10:26 You know, I still talk to her and

10:31 You know that the relationship has changed recently different when they're not there to talk back in the same way, but

10:42 Do my best to express my appreciation for?

10:48 All the things she did and not not really in any kind of material way. Although I certainly appreciated having food to eat in a roof over my head like going back to that earlier question about who she helped me to be. I mean, I remember at her memorial service. She was a teacher and at her memorial service in the receiving line where creepy poor they greet you after the service so many people said things about what a good person she was and I think one of the biggest compliments I got was a few people said to me that you remind me of your mom and that's what I continue to be grateful for and and glad I did take the time to say it but it's certainly that experience with her.

11:39 Makes me or added to my desire to tell people how much I value them in the present cuz I know that we don't always get that chance since I'm really as much as part of me would love to have change that part of my past. I'm grateful that I learned that lesson and and now take the time to tell people while they're around so that if I don't get a chance to say it again, or see them that they'll know.

12:10 Weather

12:12 When you were caring for your mom that stick out in your mind like particular instances or conversations or

12:22 You know the saying that there's a couple things that stick out of my mind. I really remember.

12:31 That I didn't think I was always the best caregiver cuz I'm a really sound sleeper and I would go sometimes the hospital when she was in the hospital overnight and things like that are there for many days and I would sleep through the night alarms that go off on devices that she had on her and I remember sort of getting on my back about that. I should be really Vigilant and that just wasn't me, you know, but I really I I was there to talk with her and comfort her when we are both awake one of the things I really enjoyed doing the most was she had this

13:13 Because the chemotherapy had really I don't know exactly what it does. But you know, it makes it hard for them to access veins to give more drugs. She had this port put in in her chest for upper chest so they could directly put in drugs through that and it got infected and so they had to take it out and I asked the home health nurse if she would show me every day you had to take out gauze and you know to help that wound heal properly and I really want to do that and I wanted to be the one to do that and to know how to do that. And so that that sticks out to me. I was like, yeah show me how to do that and and let me be that person.

13:57 Can't I enjoyed enjoyed doing things like that?

14:05 How do you earn your living and how do you like doing what you do? I love doing what I do. I work as a life skills coach and I work with people in our community who are low-income who don't have a lot of money and all of them have some kind of medical condition some have chronic things that they live with.

14:29 Their entire life from this point forward like diabetes heart disease and then others have something like cancer that they're dealing with him. Maybe a short-term.

14:42 And I work with them I coach them to help them be able to really take the best care possible themselves and have the quality of life that they want.

14:59 And I think the thing one of the things I like so much about it is

15:05 That I don't think that most of us.

15:09 Get the time to really be heard in our lives.

15:14 Life is busy people. We have a lot on our minds a lot of things that were doing and that's that's something I really do. My best to do is be a place where I be a person and and have a space in which those people can express what's going on and I think for a lot of them that in and of itself is does a lot. I think it helps their self-esteem because somebody is really paying attention and listening and in fact a lot of my clients when I ask them when we first meet I asked him about what could I do? That would be helpful to keeping them on track with their goals cuz it's not therapy its its goal oriented.

15:59 However, we do certainly spend a lot of time talking about life and I also asked them. What would they not want me to do or what would they not find helpful and very large number of them will say something to the effect of being judgmental doesn't help and they don't want somebody to judge them and

16:21 And I get part of me gets sad when I hear that because I think of how often and I do this to you know, how often I judge other people and and even people who I love dearly how I judge them.

16:36 You know you my parents my my brother my friends and such a really good practice for me cuz I do my best to honor that and and sometimes these people are making very good choices for their lives and yet I believe that if I don't if I insert my judgment in there if I make them wrong or somehow express my

17:06 My own values of well, that's not a good choice for this is not a the right choice. Then that doesn't help them. You know, it's about asking them the question will how does this how does that work for you and and sharing examples from my own life of maybe how I'm not as good to myself cuz people know it. I mean if you have those conversations, they know the say I know smoking is not good for me or I no more exercise because they already know they don't need anybody tell them this would be better for you. I think it's about hearing them and stuff feels really sacred and it's a good to be in that kind of place with somebody.

17:45 I mean, I know it's my job and I know I'm providing a service to them and at the same time it's like it a lot out of it myself.

17:57 If there were one thing you could change in our world.

18:01 What would it be? And how would you change it? Just get one, right?

18:12 I didn't think I would change actually when I think about it's really simple as I would have us as human beings have more reverence because I think that. And it's not limited to have more reverence for people or animals or plants or waterways or anything like that Simply Having more reverence because they think from me when I

18:40 Look at

18:42 Freeze or I see a person and really

18:48 See them from

18:53 A non-judgmental eyes more of loving know from a loving perspective and I look at them and I think wow.

19:00 Isn't isn't that person amazing. Even if I don't they can be walking on the other side of the street, but if I can bring myself to that place.

19:09 My friend says I'm just a lot, but I'm a lot nicer to be around first of all, but

19:18 It it's really difficult for me. When I'm in that kind of space to do anything unloving to somebody else to to judge them or to not a litterbug anyway, but you know, if if I were thinking of that even getting tampon not a litterbug, but every once in a while I walk by trash I did it this morning and there was several pieces of Cups and things as we are walking here and he has focused on something else has focused on getting here, but when I'm in a space really appreciating wow, look at this town I get to live in or look at this new business that's getting ready to open up and I see that trash and I have that sense of O, I want to pick that up and it's not about being a good person or not. A good person is just it's like it's a natural seems like it grows naturally out of that. So that's if I can wave my magic on that's what I would say is that we would all be more reverent.

20:18 And I think that would change a tremendous amount in the world.

20:27 How did we meet do you remember what you thought when you first saw me?

20:34 Don't you remember how we met,

20:39 I don't know that I remember what I thought when I first saw you cuz I don't I can't remember the first time I saw you but I'll get back to you in just a minute. Yeah, I do. I remember very specifically how we met and some one of my favorite stories we both were living in Austin, Texas and we were training for a marathon and I haven't asked you a question. Do you remember why you joined that group you had some specific goals right all the ad in the Austin american-statesman newspaper. And I said, you know, I'm I'm 50 something years old and if I'm ever going to run a marathon this would be a good time to do it. So my number one goal was to run and complete a marathon.

21:30 My number to goal was to make some more folks to run with cuz he on my only running partner was a airline pilot. He was out of town a lot. And the number three goal was to meet some women who like to do the things that I do who are healthy and who were likely to be fit and actually all three of those came to pass that I am so I had some similar goals. I'm I don't remember if I really really wanted to run a marathon. I was a runner in high school and and I still enjoyed doing a lot of running and did competitive races. So I think that was at least something I wanted to see if I could do

22:17 And you have more people to run with and I was in a relationship. So I wasn't necessarily looking to meet any any men but as it turned out I did and I do remember we you and I ended up in the same group together the green group. We were the intermediate speed Runners and I think we start out with about 20 people and the way I remember it or this is my glorified and ever his I have is one of the only women but I ended up being the only women there were there ended up being about eight of us who were regular and consistent over that first at least at first six months training cycle and

22:58 Again, even though I was in a relationship it was you guys were my guys and we would go have breakfast after every long run and read everybody. It was so fun. I always get one pancake you'd get to other people get the full three stack pancake. And so it really became a family and and I do remember though that you and I don't remember the first time but I remember you being somebody who had these interesting ideas somebody who seemed in many ways a lot more mature than any of the rest of us were and to me you were very attractive physically, you are very attractive and yet more than that. It was really who you were in talking with you and having these conversations and I know some people think that that's amazing that we would all of us would talk on these 20-mile runs and things like that.

23:58 But that was we really all did get to know each other very very well on and course that led me to when I wasn't in a relationship anymore to find out why the heck awards at the running group you making sure you came back telling you everybody missed you which was true, but I think mostly it was that I missed half of you.

24:20 Is there anything more you want to say about that story? Cuz you're welcome to ask me a question.

24:33 What is the thing you love most about me? And what's the thing that you like least?

24:43 There's so much that I that I love about you.

24:48 You keep asking these hard questions.

24:51 Okay, see if I can pick one.

24:58 I think I'll pick maybe a global one and then maybe a more personal one globally or maybe bigger picture. The thing that I love most about you is.

25:11 Your

25:13 Stance in the world and and your willingness to

25:18 Foley live out your values and when you're not to find ways to get back to that that's really inspiring to me. It's

25:32 Inspiring to everybody. I know who knows you cuz people all remark on that and that's that's a really important piece for me to be with somebody like that Adam and you are that consistently you live your values and

25:51 A walk your talk is as it's another way to say it.

25:55 And that's like I said, that's really inspiring to me. So from a big picture perspective. That's one of the things I love most about you and in part because it challenges me to be that way. I don't know if it's from competitive nature or what, but but I certainly you are a role model for that way of living for me, and I'm really grateful for that. So, thank you.

26:19 What I love most about you on a maybe on a non Global or less world-changing level.

26:31 I think that there's so many things at least one though that comes to mind is your expressiveness and your I mean we tease each other that we are crying fools and I really

26:46 I really love that because

26:51 For me, that's true emotions is how you really see.

26:55 The real person and and some of the emotions of course, I'd like more than others and yet I think it's again it reminds me of

27:09 It reflects back to me. I think the the sacredness of of relationship and I think we really had that peace and I always feel honored that you are willing to be your full self with me on intellectual emotional spiritual levels in

27:27 So I love that and I'm part I love it for selfish reason because it did to me the meaning I put on that is that you value me enough at least in part that that's part of your willingness is that you value me enough to to be who you are.

27:45 And of course, I love things about your humor and you of course, you know that though and I think you trying to be a little serious and I like to pretend like I don't like some of the silica sand and yet I usually can't keep a straight face. So I'm not a I'm definitely not a good Poker Face.

28:10 And second part of the question. I forgot what do you like least see?

28:23 I don't know that there's anything that I really would say. I like least. I think the things that I

28:31 Get irritated about or sometimes think why doesn't he do it this way? It's it's something that's easy for me to forget. We have different perception of things. So

28:45 Like if you don't, you know, clean up something whether it's spilled food on the floor.

28:53 I think it's those things I get irritated about but it's if I'll let myself remember. It's reminder that you have your strengths and you have the things that you see and are aware of and I have things that I see and I'm aware of and so I think the things that I don't like tend to be things that if I'm willing to will reflect back to me.

29:18 Something where

29:22 Not that it's about me necessarily, but that it's they're not things that are big deal. There's there's nothing about you that I would say. Wow. I'd want to change that to be with you. I might want you to do tours differently, but that's I mean those things are so inconsequential I may get irritated, but it's definitely not worth spending any energy on really I just forget that sometimes

29:48 Here's one that's been a topic of conversation with us recently.

29:53 Do you want to become a parent?

29:56 And why or why not?

30:06 It has been a topic of conversation lately.

30:10 I really I think who knows whether it's going back to being raised by the the parents who raised me or anything else.

30:23 I really want to have

30:26 The kind of impact on somebody's life. I know I do have an impact for my coaching and through volunteer work that I do and things like that and and family relationship in friend relationships and yet there's something to me. That's so compelling about

30:45 Being for better for worse. I mean, it's similar to a marriage to me as far as the the kind of commitment level that that it requires and to me that part is exciting to think about being.

31:02 That committed

31:05 To somebody else and

31:09 Really? I was going to say having to be on point but getting to be really thoughtful about life about what do you want to pass on to somebody else?

31:21 That part is is really exciting. I totally forgot my question, but I don't know that I have a definitive answer but that that

31:32 Quality of

31:36 Getting to be

31:38 Really thoughtful and

31:41 And concentrating one's effort.

31:46 Maybe not entirely in yet pretty fully on one other human being is

31:54 Definitely has a strong pole for me. It reminds me of that that interview we listen to yesterday about

32:03 Karen Anderson talking about compassion

32:07 And I forget who she said said it. Maybe it's the Buddha. Maybe you remember Confucius. Somebody had said that it was something that you do all day everyday.

32:21 And in a way, that's really scary. Wow. I am not sure that's humanly possible to do something all day every day whether to be compassionate or be mindful.

32:32 And yet

32:34 Sounds pretty exciting to to have that that goal or that challenge of of being that way in the world. I think would make me a better person which sounds like a good outcome to

32:49 I'm almost 30 years older than you are.

33:03 What do you imagine your life will be like if I die before you do?

33:10 I don't like to have answered if you very often.

33:17 I find it really hard to imagine that ever find anybody like you.

33:26 The things that are really important to me which have talked about some of your way of being in the world the way you are with me the way you are with others.

33:39 And so I think okay. That was one of my one hurrah.

33:49 And

33:51 One of the things I want for myself if that's what does happen.

33:56 This I really want to go on living fully and I think similar in a sense to when my mom died and I was when she died when I was 21.

34:08 It's certainly not what I would have chosen.

34:12 And yet I think she would be really pleased to see what I've done with my life. Not not from a measuring type of perspective. I just think she would really enjoy seeing me now knowing me as I am now and so I want I would want that same quality for me that I would go on that I would mourn and yet that I would choose to still continue to make a really wonderful life that you know, if you were still there to share at the same way. That would be something we'd really ghosts be delighted with

34:57 How would you like to be remembered what will be inscribed?

35:02 Undertone on your gravestone

35:10 I always used to say at 1 to be remembered as a good person.

35:16 I think a lot of that was from in wanting people to love me and another probably a lot of unhealthy aspects of that desire when I was younger.

35:29 And

35:31 As I have grown up and I'm almost 40. I think though that there's a lot of similarities now and how I'd like to be remembered as someone who

35:44 Was other focused and no one really thought to

35:50 Leave things better.

35:53 Then when she first encountered that not because they weren't good enough as they are but somebody who cared enough. I think that's really is that you care enough to give your life to some cause it's important that it doesn't have to be a big, you know, not everybody has to be Gandhi but that you give yourself to leaving a positive Mark that you were there. You know that you were here. So, I don't know you're the world's best baby. You can a gravestone, but I certainly hope that people will enjoy most of their memories of me and

36:39 Find things to me that they say yeah, let's continue on the way that she did it. That was that was good model.

36:50 Is there anything else you'd like to say in closing?

36:55 I get to ask you a couple questions. I'll do that thing. I'd like to say to you and closing his thank you for taking out some really good questions and giving me moments to laugh and cry.

37:10 And helping me feel really valued it appreciate. You're welcome. And we can do this in reverse on in our own time. You can ask me the question then I'd like that before we go. Can I ask you a couple too? Sure since we got some time.

37:31 What?

37:33 Do you most remember as far as an activity doing with your dad?

37:41 Playing basketball

37:43 I we used to wait we could have a goal and our side yard. And if this was it was just a one concrete it was mud and basically kind of a flat dirt cord and a wooden backboard back and we used to go out and and shoot for a long long periods of time and he was a good athlete I was

38:06 I'm taller than he ever agree to pay but he he would consistently beat me in basketball and put the I remember one time.

38:17 I don't know Hunter sophomore in high school maybe that I actually beat him and that was a big red letter day for me could finally after all those years and but we continue to play and when the neighborhood Kids game Over. Yeah, he join in the game.

38:34 So that's that's that's one of the things that I remember. How long did you play? Like, where you from a young kid? Did you all do this or were you?

38:47 In grade school, I do have a letter grades in elementary school or maybe early early Junior High.

38:56 It took me awhile to get.

39:00 What he's meant to me in my life I discounted him.

39:06 And tended to focus on those things about him and and the way he was with me. I tend to focus on the things that I didn't like.

39:16 And there were some things.

39:19 Beef stew there, but you know finally, you know, you have to say won't you know, I am who I am and it's up to me to become who I want to be.

39:31 Political activism and my desire

39:35 Make the world a better place stem directly from watching him do that when he was the head of common cause in Tennessee when he was involved in local and state and National politics. He was for the little guy he was for the underdog and and and so am I

40:01 Well just on one final thing, then you wrote a book about him after he died. What was the main reason you wrote that book? I'm not sure that I know.

40:15 I wanted to give his friends and family an opportunity to remember him and me an opportunity to remember him.

40:23 I see you as you really want and so I went around to relatives and friends and into the folks who played sports with him and folks who worked within them folks are involved in politics with them and ask them each to write a paragraph or two and provide some photos. And I think we were we were living together and when I was undertaken a process it took almost a year to get everything together.

40:53 But I'm glad I did it cuz it's a live in Memento and and you know something that's going to be there as it is a document as an artifact.

41:04 Remember him by to Doug is

41:11 The folks the generations in our family who come after him. I'll have that too.

41:18 See who you are.

41:21 And now we have this. She has an artifact to see who we were. So thanks for coming here and having a good conversation. Talk to you.

41:32 Bruce and clothing. Is there anything that you'd like to say to me?

41:38 There's a lot I could say to Shawnee, you know, the one thing.

41:47 That

41:50 You know what the time of this I love most about you that draws me to you the most I know.

41:59 I never Well Medical strong words rarely rarely ever doubt that you were 100% for me. I mean, yeah does not mind getting me and make stuff up sure but in my heart of hearts, I know that you're for me and that you're with me and you know, I intend

42:19 I trust you with my innermost thoughts. I trust you with.

42:23 I trust you with my life.