Glen Waggoner and Daniel Okrent

00:09 My name is Daniel okrent. I'm 61 years old. It's May 11th 2009 and I'm at Lincoln Center with my friend Glenn Wagner.

00:17 My name is Glenn Wagner. I'm 68 years old. It's May 11th 2009. I'm at Lincoln Center with my friend Daniel okrent who wants to know about your life in Duncanville, Texas and particularly, I think maybe starting with your parents and when they meet and marry, well, that's that's lost in the mysteries of time because my mother was 45. I was 47. My father was for my mother was 45 my father 47 when I was born. I had siblings 2622 and 18 years older than I thought it was a tumor until I started moving around and my two

01:02 Go to my Everlasting embarrassment my uncle always referred to me as the world's largest living tumor. They grew up in Texas my father grew up in Oklahoma my mother grew up in Texas. And then of course I grew up in Texas tell me about the town. Where were you going to Duncanville Texas, which what the time was a tiny village town of about 500 people to date has 36,000. I looked it up back then it was a little farming Community with about five stores Feed Store post office drug store Domino parlor downtown called Downtown Duncan and it had no light and no love no people of color today. According to the Wikipedia about 25% African American and quite a large spread. How close to how close a Dallas is it? Well if I got up on my swing set in my backyard on a clear night, I can see the mobile.

02:02 Flying red horse downtown Dallas by turn the other way and if there was softball game going on in Duncanville, I could see the lights from the ball from the it was it was 10 12 miles from Dallas proper. What was your father's business what you do for living there was an accountant CPA. My mother said, no, he was just an accountant and he was office manager is Baker company in in Dallas. So you can tell me about your invention that you had these siblings who were 1821 and 26 years older than you what kind of relationship did you have with them real pretty distant in October 1940. My brother got married in November by the older my two sisters got married and in December, I was born so we they had their families. We didn't live close by my younger sister was only 18 years old of night. She and I got to be Pals and

03:02 I remember once telling my mother growing up that I liked her better than the others in. My mother admonished mean no, no. No, you can't say that. You've got to love them all love him all equally in later years. Did you find that the older ones? Did you could you see them as siblings or do they seem like I'm feeling well, they became stand in parents after my father died when I was ten my brother to his prey credit tried. I took me on vacation with his family, but he had a wife who didn't care for much for me facts. She tried to get me when she worked at SMU when I was going to college there try to get me thrown out of SMU for my activities in civil rights demonstrations and whatnot by the younger my sister of my sisters had enough having six children, but if they became almost my peers when I leave your nephews and nieces nephews and nieces who might have been.

04:02 Experience for you. He had been I didn't know he had all of a sudden September of 1951. He came home and said my mother said well, he's tired and needs a rest and needs a rest. How old is he? He wasn't the time 57 and

04:26 He spent more and more time in bed. I noticed but you know, I didn't really pay that much attention. I was a kid there was low and toward the end of the September.

04:38 Play October guess a long weekend in which off for some reason my brother was out there at the house. Both of my sisters not with their husbands are with their families. That was a typical for sure local people's brought in food, which I was a fat little kid. I thought this was great, you know cakes and pies using I wanted to and or Monday morning. I went off to school. We always did we walked up my cut two cousins and I walked up to catch the bus in to Duncanville to go to hike to go to school. I was in the sixth grade against fifth grade. Am I have to check it out and

05:20 I got remember sitting down in class. Everybody was kind of quiet and I was barefooted because I always did that that time of year. I was allowed to go barefooted really from the date the Monday after Easter until the state fair that characteristic of other people nice airport all day and I remember distinctly the going to rubbing my feet up and down back and forth on this these heavily soiled Pine Floors Voice next to me today. Hey, I hear your daddy died.

06:01 What your daddy that I was thin embarrassment and I don't know next thing. I know my sister appears in front of the class. My dear sister, my younger my two sisters pushed 2828 down and the teacher called me up and they blamed you get your things and come up to the front of the room. And I did my sister takes me out in the hall. We start walking down the hall. I have no idea what's going on.

06:34 And she said that you hear the one about the three kittens to tap and toe and she said well one of them died because there was no Tit for Tat. I didn't think it was very funny joke and the next but the next thing she turned me grabbed me by the shoulders and turn meet order and said

06:53 Penny pitchers was her nickname for me because she said I was sweeter than a penny box of candy Penny daddy died last night that I figured out that the reason I was sent off to school is so that the Undertaker could come and get the body but nobody called you at home. But why would they not have told you I don't know I think not to disturb me not to shock me not to come to school and I know well that you're the rumor Fab cuz my cousin's me out of this part of the night before my my my father had my brother had called me and said you want to say goodnight to Daddy and I said, yeah and I went money on it. He was obviously you've barely conscious and he did have a flicker recognition and I said well how you feel and daddy and he shook his head and I says well goodnight and that was it except of course back then it was customary to bring the body back for viewing.

07:53 And set the home at the home. So what does there was an open casket with my father in it in the living room for 3 Days man that night by members of the Masonic Lodge who mostly said in there trying to muffle their laughter. They all got drunk and kind of just sat around it was a harrowing three or four days.

08:14 But what did your mother have to say to you? She was you know, hugs. Much. I don't remember her saying very very much. I know that she took me in with her to the to the living room once and said he doesn't he look pretty and I thought oh my God, I mean even then did you SOB did you break down at the church and there I was a minnow collapse pretty much. So what about your life after your father dies here there with your mother and semi-rural area along moved into town right across the street from where my sister my favorite my younger sister and her burgeoning family lived in what singer used to sing about little houses made out of ticky-tacky. It was tiny little box house post-war built, you know and went to school and she's supported yourself.

09:14 Apple security food for my father is so benefits, but she for the first time in her life had a job outside of raising kids went to work at Sears Roebuck loved it. Finally was forced to retire from that then she went to work at a drugstore get fired from that and ended up in Houston where she lived with the my my favorite sister and work in another drug store. And how long did she work for Sears Roebuck? She worked there from fuse for the time from for Sears back in the 40s 50s and 60s could retire with quite a bit of money. Do you have any money? That was my money same time? And I had some money to get ready to I wanted to buy a car my brother thought the oh no, this is cease to Young. He's only 15 and 16.

10:12 And my mother said no he gets his money. He saved it if you wants to buy a car. He buys her car and I bought a 50 Ford beautiful thing after I headed back twice and painted white and it and how long did you have your fist 1954 gosh, I had it right up through high school. And when you do in the back seat of the 1954, I don't think I want that to be told in the not much by the way, cuz this is what is a 50 Spotify and it was great having a car in Texas then was absolutely essential that you could get one more thing. I'm you've lived in New York for more than forty years the most urban place in America and maybe neither one of us are but nice places in the world where you are your life is filled with all the things of the City offers you a theater and excitement and art museums and so on when you think back on your life and Duncanville, Texas, is that what a fondness or do you think of you being benighted? And oh, no, I select.

11:12 Define bits in the good teachers in the good memories. I mean I try but I do always when I think of that transition I think of a book written by longtime of my favorite author. Is that later became the editor of Harper's way Morris. You would have called and he grew up in Oxford, Mississippi North toward home. And that's exactly what it was for me to come North Door. Did you know from the time you were young that you wanted to I just wanted to get a new I wanted to go away and I got a fucken college. I got a scholarship it would let me go to graduate school pretty much anywhere. I wanted to go and I was going to go to the University of Wisconsin study American history and a friend of mine who's going to go off and herself. So don't know we need to go to New York because it's more different than anything we've ever know and we need to study European history because it's more of it. We won't get bored and I grew up in Detroit and I knew from the time I was five years old. I wanted to live in New York and the first opportunity I had to do.

12:12 Why did why what what I mean, I watch The Ed Sullivan Show and there are several reasons. Why would watch The Ed Sullivan Show and I would see these people on it. And it said this is the world for me and they had a Jewish Senator named Jacob Javits. I thought that was very cool. Did you also watch What's My Line? But to me, that's all of them. Show is the essence of New York and I don't know for what reason why I every Sunday night and time as long as I can remember it was my parents watched it for the reasons that most adults in America did I watched it? And I saw a world that I wanted what part of Detroit did you know, I grew up in the city of Detroit on the northwest side Detroit divides. You are either Eastside killer Westside. Kevin Northwest was the was the was a large what parts of a whirl actually Jewish we did not live in the Jewish because my father was alienated from the Detroit I did grow up.

13:12 Who's your mother Beverly just what she is and she grew up. She was raised religiously, but when she married my father she had to accept the fact that we work and have a very religious household because he was at his parents were Communists and then non-believer swell, and he had the same we thought the same thing to do the key story of of of his life was so I went home with a new friend in the new friend introduced me to his mother who and recognizing my name, which is not a common names that are you related to Harry okra, and I said, yes, and he's my father and she said, you know, I've known it we knew each other as kids and he's one of my heroes my father you're here or why she would have left is a family from when he defended the Nazis the accused Nazi spy, the what I go home that night and I asked my father what's this about your having to fend it an excuse not to spy. I don't want to talk about it. I tried to get my mother to talk about it. She said, oh no. No, this isn't our past and I went down to the Detroit Free Press.

14:11 Play prior to their Morgan. I got the clip files on my father and I when he was a young lawyer in Detroit at the end of World War II he got a phone call from a man who's been a professor of his twin State University German Professor a German man. Whose wife had been charged with Espionage by which of the Espionage Act near the end of the war and nobody would take the case because of who who are feelings being them as they were this man is Professor remembered that. My father finally is a student and said would you represent my wife and my father believed in such things? So he did she was convicted although he maintained later when I learned that these people these old German people came to visit us every Christmas and that they worth of this was the ex by and and and her husband really believe that she was the result of his having represented her is that he was ostracized by the Detroit Jewish Community much. He'd grown up. He didn't been on the board of a reform Temple that he helped found. He was kicked off the board.

15:11 People that had known as a child and then through the through his younger years was refused to speak with him until we moved into a non-jewish neighbor and he vowed that he would never have anything to do with or organize jewelry again, and I knew none of this. Wow. Well, my father could have been more different than when he didn't vote for. I don't know for sure. He cursed Harry S Truman everyday of the left of this life between the 48 election in my father's death. I think he may not have voted for him because he was a republican in Texas now from Thurmond Strom Thurmond problem with humans course was he was soft on pardon the expression soft on niggars and that's the only way my father ever described people of color. My mother never said that word in my presence ever always was colored man colored person or negro make sure to pronounce it correctly and I think for some reason that that that that

16:12 That fixed in my mind a difference or early on in my life. How did your mother feel when you got involved in civil rights when you were dancing you she did not give me a hard time. She she didn't talk about it my all my other family did when I was left after fairly active civil rights activity getting ready to go out for graduate school my sister and my two sisters my mother for two nights before leaving dinner and it ended back and forth back and forth with one of my favorite sister saying just thank God that you're going off to New York. So you won't have to be able to inflict your communist ideas on my children. This is your favorite. This is my favorite sister, but she keeps she loves you. Anyway, I can continue to love you Dad, but she sure didn't like my papa to out. So where did you come from? Cousin Bobby cross the road and I don't know that it was it was

17:12 Was in the air a little bit. I guess he was the family liberal maybe also that you know, I can think of two things in 1948 went to what what had been Rebel field became Eagle Stadium left field because they had an entrepreneur type owner like Bill Veeck on a very minor league name dick Burnett kisses in Dallas in Dallas and when it would have been 49 the minute the Jackie Robinson integrated Major League Baseball the very next year he brought in for the to the first two black ballplayers into the Texas League Fred Buzz Clarkson and Willard Johnson. I looked them up and they were have been big big heroes the Negro Leagues and this of course was to bring it to bring in a black coat fans and I remembered sitting in never seen this before it was integrated in a way.

18:11 Not one section from the from the field level on up to the top would be quite the next one would be black. The next one would be quite as like a checkerboard integration of the whites didn't have better seat belts in that they did not help movie theaters near Heaven as which of course at the very end of the altitudes. I remember one time. We we had a demonstration worked out. There was a movie playing called King of Kings about himself and it was right on the corner of a downtown Dallas. Well, we lined up people starting with the whitest person we could be fine going around the corner getting increasingly in a dark-skinned now, that wasn't it wasn't it wasn't perfect because we didn't have that range of people to pick from SMU. The only division was with any black people was Perkins School of Theology and these guys were we beat him up because he said we cash we have a demonstration. We have a sit-in you have to come Glen.

19:11 Have to study but you can't have a sitting with you know, and say I want I leave here if you serve my friend or I'll buy this ticket if you someone to him if you don't have any black people, but I remember that we did had to put it off pretty well that finally they turn somebody down and then we pull out from the other Round the Corner picket lines and what not standing in front and I was the spokesperson for Woodlawn the Texas news, which was what everybody watch the minute it came on. Telephone rang is my mother-in-law and on the phone and talking to my wife my wife all of a sudden burst into tears. And I said, why what's she said she's there so humiliated they're so humiliated think they said they're going to move out of town because of you. I never married when you were very young. How are you? I was 19 and I'm thinking about it and I move out of town great, but they didn't wish he also it from the Dallas area. She was from Dallas. Yes.

20:11 But she certainly was Pro. She was an opera singer and Dallas you when we got to New York. She introduced me to A Whole New World but it was a generational another words you and your contemporaries have different attitudes and your parents are largely. It was largely generational. Although the core of my generation. I'm still in touch with a handful of them in there still is very want any racist now, it's at work then although they claimed to be they wouldn't complain about. No, I think not but they they insulate themselves by moving to all you know, quite suburbs far away from anybody anytime you would ever come to the day in your life where we have a black president my God. No. Oh no, I wept

21:06 Just the thought of it and this is my wife said the great thing or I don't think we have a black president of a black first lady. I mean to be born black president. That would be more amazing. But I know this is been a sea-change live long enough. You see a lot of change in Detroit that do you have a car and motor in Watertown. Well, you didn't like my parents had two cars and when I was driving age, I always had one available in the evenings they whatever they do whether we're staying home or going out they did it together. So there was another car my siblings were sufficiently older than I that by the time I got a driver's license. I was the only kid left at home. So I had my mother's 62 Pontiac Tempest and then I had my father's 64 Chevy and then I got the

22:00 I got to use our cars which one of them. Did you have your first sex in well, that would have been in my brother's apartment Chicago several years later Baker think that's very kind of embarrassing. It's really think that you could do that to your mother is a kid my friend Jim store for and I we would sit on the corner of the intersection too busy streets and just count. You know, I can still you know, if I see a car in American car built between 1950 and 1965. I can tell you immediately the year in the model and when it was the biggest day in Detroit when the the new the new model year started not all that the showrooms would have their windows soaped up and then on that and we go after school to watch them unsoaked the window so we can see the new cars. Well, they used to do them in for your Cycles the 4950.

23:00 51 Fords were essentially the same car and then a break and 52 53 54 and on up and of course if you were any any kind of studly young boy young teenager, you can identify them all this with a quick glance. And what I remember most about those Cycles 1957 Pontiac there. They're only its 1960 and in fact a 1960 Plymouth look exactly like a 1957 Plymouth a new episode 57 Ford was one of the great great cars of the 20th century. My heart is with the 55 Chevy 55 to Olney, Illinois baseball.

23:47 Well, I remember my first game very well. When I was 6 years old, my father took my older brother and me took us to the to Detroit Tigers game with the Cleveland Indians at the Tigers Billy hoeft pitching against Mike Garcia. The Tigers lost. I remember exactly where we were sitting wild Robo hit a huge home run to left field the land of the D. And what was done Briggs Stadium the upper deck in left you hung over the field. This could be above it was on the way into the into the Fielder's glove and would hit the upper deck and so my father went through the ritual of taking $0.02 a game and then that was it and I took him to a game 27 years later. So we had a gap there in a baseball was it was everything to me. I played it as a kid in Sandlot collected the cards and them rice is statistics and went to sleep listening to the broadcast. It was a huge part of my life. I just got a portable radio that have been given to me.

24:47 CNN on my seventh birthday and spent the summer 48 listening to sitting in the backyard for that portable under the shade cuz in Texas got pretty doggone hot listening to the Cleveland Indians practically everyday now, I didn't know where Cleveland was and I didn't know far as I knew it was vague maybe the other side of town but this was back in the day when the old Scotchman Scotsman Gordon McLendon who's I think 28th at the time of the symbol radio network of recreating baseball games on top of the AP wire Lindsey Nelson. Did I how can I have known was at that time about 23 24 years old they were looking at a ticker-tape they were they were through and broke all the fog's coming in off of Lake Erie. That's why they put they put they stop play Ronald Reagan was doing the same thing out in California and

25:46 Because they could pick any game they wanted to and hit a 1200, you know Station Network and most of them were Day games. It was an Indian summer and to this day I can mail to 54 Indian Sweet Leaf 48th or 48th somewhere. They were they were pretty good team. And I know my God. That only do that for my you know, if you ask me about my mother your mother. Yes, you talked about your father and you knew my mother, of course it a little bit. My mother was born in Hungary in 1912. What was what is not Romanian but was then part of austro-hungarian Empire and large Hungarian language. Her mother was the Fairly well-off daughter of a man who owned the flour mill her father was a desperately poor, but very handsome and very intelligent young and very ambitious young man. Who won my grandmother's hand really he was trying to win my grandmother.

26:46 Money on marrying her he took off for medical school with her money. He would come home long enough to you know, impregnate her a couple times to create my my mother and my uncle was born in 1912 in around 19, + 19, 19, 20 21. My grandfather clearly arrange to have himself caught in flagrante with an actress had known in Vienna who is coming through with the traveling company, and he wanted to be caught. My grandmother was very proper lady found them got them in the clenched and said begone I demands divorce and he said yes and took off for the US. He didn't wasn't interested in the actress whose interest in Freedom for my grandmother. She continued to love him. She more than just that his his departure daily and he settled in Detroit and he wrote to my mother as she was going through routines constantly saying, will you and your brother come and live in Detroit with me? And she said no. No, I can't lie.

27:46 My mother here will you know, I'm not going to have your mother here, but he would continue to he remarried and he's continued to plead her with her in 1929. My uncle dies of spinal meningitis and my grandfather feels incredibly guilty. He writes my mother and says, please come to Detroit and you can bring your mother with you. So he has a small Medical Practice in Detroit. He lives out of town. He installs above his medical practice in his ex-wife with whom he does not speak and his daughter my daughter his daughter. My mother goes to school at what became Wayne State University of Utah was she was a multilingual she didn't know English when she learned very quickly. So my grandfather at lunch time every day would come upstairs. My grandmother would come over. My mother would come up from school and my grandmother as the maid and cook would serve them and they still didn't speak. My grandfather would say to my mother. Would you ask your mother to please bring me some more milk and my mother returned to her mother and say please bring me my father some more milk and this one on

28:46 This business so kind of master-slave relationship for several years. My mother gets married to my father around the same time my grandfather and his second wife divorce and he becomes quite ill from hypertension. My parents have a small apartment 3 room apartment and now both parents are living with them and not even speaking to each other. This is right 1938 my grandpa at my parents sleep in the living room to my grandfather one-bedroom my grandmother in the other bedroom. This goes on for four or five years of the same sort of made taking care of the other demands of her ex-husband and my sister is born in 1942 and my grandparents are sitting on the porch when summer evening with my parents, my mother's holding her her baby in her arms and my grandfather out of the blue turns to my mother and says, would you ask your mother if she would marry me again?

29:35 And my mother turns to her mother and says father wants to know if you would marry him again. My grandmother says you may tell your father that I would be honored to marry him again and they get married and he died six months later. Wow. Oh my God. First thought you said that was right out of my mother for the rest of her life, She continued to talk about her father's the finest human being on a wonderful man. She worshipped him. He denied he died when when my mother was 30. I never knew him my father hated the guy and as long as my father was alive whenever my mother would say what a fine human being her father was he would begin to tell the story is typical of what an arrogant and selfish man who was my father died of hypertension. They both died of a disease that they wouldn't die from today today. I'm pretty

30:35 By taking a little magic pill wanted a mazing the number people call it malignant hypertension better than

30:44 My my grandparents were Leopold Adler and Laura Klein Adler their daughter gazella named after I'd lie for Jewish family then that for the first Christian queen of Hungary. She married my father Harry ocrant who was the son of Marsha Moses Oakland and high Ore-Ida sugar ocrant. They were from Poland.

31:09 My father's name was Henry Carr Wagoner Name Days by his father had been the the mayor of Norman Oklahoma and a wheeler-dealer land Grabber who have to research and find out but persuaded the founders of the University of Oklahoma to located Norman rather than Oklahoma City. My mother is with Marguerite Callaway the daughter of one of several Children of the last very long line of Southern Baptist preachers going back into 18th century.

31:52 My father was a Methodist. So so that when they got married she can win from Southern Baptist and tradition to Methodist. I wasn't such a long voyage voyage back then but he never went to church and what was it? What what role does religion did religion play in your life as a kid? I went every Sunday, but my mother having raised three kids pretty hard in the church was I think tired by the time I came along and also she didn't think I could do near anything wrong. So as I drifted away, she never admonish me, but I never saw it wasn't over did it ever mean anything to you Church humor. Could we sit at the back? And then they would say at the cross at the cross where I first saw the light the kids week 9 year olds would say at the bar at the bar where I first took a drink and the collapse of last year. It was Sunday school, but the stories and it was MMA fight that woman of about 6 ft to lean spinster lady who up. The front would be playing this piece.

32:52 Banging of the way, you could have heard it in in DeSoto or Cedar Hill to nearby towns, but then we'd love to watch her do that. Did you have any faith or fear face in or fear of God? I don't recall ever having any faith. Any any fear of fact, I would often, you know, I went back to the 50th High School reunions and I made a little speech and afterwards the to do their two twins from mother never spoke to on all the years. I was in three years of high school team over to me with benign looks on their face and one of them said then that was wonderful. Have you ever thought about Jesus? And I said, well Jesus I said, well, no not not really and they started to make sure they were born again. And I said no, I'll look I I left religion quite a long time ago and she said put the blend what if you what if when you die and the Day of Reckoning comes

33:51 What's going to happen to you? And I said and then I just drew on my my knowledge and memory I said well if the good Lord is as generous and loving as I was told that he was he will welcome me into his bosom with open arms and I turned and walked away. I didn't want to be rude to them on the other hand. They wouldn't let me go they wanted to get me back to the old time religion. And you know, I never I mean I went to Sunday school the compromise of my parents made was that I was not permit to put in my brother wasn't of course my sister by heart. Mitzvah didn't exist really back then so it my sister course wasn't but I did go to Sunday school until I was fourteen and I learned I guess the Jewish tradition. They know what the holidays are and I knew the basic Bible stories, but I think I was an atheist in utero and I went through a brief. Of religion when I was an agnostic and thought there was a possibility but it my father was such a rationalist. My phone had no sentiment of any

34:51 And Other Stories may have indicated and among the many things that he had absolute disdain for it was religion what you called mumbo-jumbo and I was I was with him entirely won. His first grandchild was inside. My sister's daughter. This is 30 years ago. He sat there grinning and seemed so proud of you said that was all mumbo-jumbo and he said yes, but it's my granddaughter's when I was I didn't go to church except that if I was going out with some girl she did that I pretty much I'm ever going for a while to the port to a Presbyterian Church for bo3 for months. And then my the wife my wife-to-be was a member of the Christian Church the northern Branch Houston make very clear and I was I was fully immersed. I was as a freshman in college. I was so desperately hot for Mary Jo.

35:51 Mary Lou Wagner from Marshall Michigan and she was Catholic and I went to church with her pretending that I was interested hoping just to get in her pants girls, you know, they is the sauce that they started like a boy they caught up quickly.

36:09 We did have a beard in the course. How many Catholics in the in Duncanville when I was growing up at three churches Methodist Baptist and then the Holy Roller Church C1 from extreme right to kind of rice can be neighbors with related in some way or fashion or other The Smiths the cars were related, but then the men's name. So there was tub Hood There Was Juicy Hoskins not to be confused with Junior Hopkins and they're to my favorite toys to love to watch him in the Domino part. It was Jebel Darby had lost most of them is left arm in a in a French accent farm accident, but that didn't stop him from his own cigarettes that little piece of paper there.

37:09 Rollitup liquid iron out the names. I remember my father's friends were all named Irving Marie Sheldon Bernard Morris, and I thought these of course we're Jewish names, but if you stop and think they are all Anglo-Saxon surnames and was an effort for the parents of that generation to anglicize their kids. They took these names Marie. I'm in my God. That's the essential Scottish name and in doing so They seized these Anglo-Saxon surnames made them Jewish of a generation and now doing this action could use them again.

37:49 You know, you have nothing else to talk about your first beer. Actually, I gave money to an elderly negro man to go into a store to buy the beer. We did all that, but I remember I was tall and I went with her there was a driving call Sybil's that was it is right out of American Graffiti. They sell beer at the time and so I would sit up tall in my 1950 Ford look good all white LED in lower to Hopedale black interior set up Paul and I remember going up in sing in the car up came out and she said can I help you? I said, I'll check back with slits. Please very cold, and she smiled, but she brought it back and we proceeded four of us getting really dead drunk on six pack and play the first time I go to a bar in Ann Arbor in school and with my 21st birthday and let's go celebrate and they didn't ask me for my ID and I was so pissed off.

38:49 I could have been going all this time. I don't think I ever don't think I was ever a cuz I was I don't think I was ever asked that for an ID, but never been to a ball game in Fenway Park. They would ask you for ID. Now the rules everybody who buys beer and family mushroom. That's great.

39:13 How do you make?

39:16 The short version we actually met through Glenn had been a junior faculty member at Michigan When I Was An undergraduate, we didn't know each other but we both knew another Junior faculty member named Bob Squires. I just retired from NYU and in the 76 or 77 baseball season, Bob and I were going to constant Yankee games. I hated the Yankees Belle of the ball game and I think the Glenn and I invited us both and I think was during the 1977 postseason. We were at the same game that the game that Reggie Jackson hit 3 homeruns we could have met earlier than was at the University of Michigan managing editor of Michigan Daily Andres out of the well, okay, and I was a junior junior faculty. I ran for a Precinct delegate to democratic party and the daily sent out a questionnaire to everyone and I dug this thing out of file the other day and it's a letter from

40:12 Dan okrent to me dear. Mr. Wagner, you are a Precinct delegate in the daily would like to have you answer these questions on these positions. I'm just going to bring it. I forgot to allow and so we could have went back in 1960s. God would have been 70 1976.

40:37 I'd rather not answer that no, I thought I thought he knew more about baseball than anybody I've ever met in my life. And then I subsequently became to develop the belief in correct, but he knew more about anything everything else than anybody I ever met and I remember most is that I had remembered in the history Department. Remember the names on the door was mr. Wagoner and mr. Guth gmta bringing office. I'm just so when I met him, this is Glenn Wagner you made known to man and I know but I remember the office it was with Mr. Goose. I don't know who mr. Goose was the Lord John both of you had a good life picture app.

41:19 Thank you Dan. It's been a great pleasure doing this with you. I feel the same way about you Glenn. Thank you very much.