Robert “Bob” Johnson, Lora Caldwell, and Anne McCarthy

00:05 My name is Ann McCarthy. I'm 52 today's date is July 31st 2009 and we're in Erie Pennsylvania my relationship to these two is friend and co-worker.

00:18 Co-worker in the peace movement. My name is Robert Johnson. I go by Bob. I'm 62 years old. Today is July 31st 2009. I wear in Erie Pennsylvania and I work with the two these other two in the peace movement and I consider them friends. My name is Laura Caldwell. I'm 48 years old. Today's date is July 31st, 2009. Where in Erie Pennsylvania and I am friends and secretary to Bob and Ann for the Erie peace initiative.

00:54 Grape what part of our interest part of my interest in interviewing the two of you together as part of our group, you know, we wanted to have wanted to have a presence in the storycorps from our group just to talk about our experiences my interest in interviewing the two of you together was to talk about you different backgrounds. So maybe just start what would you say your use of Warren peace were growing up.

01:23 We start with that.

01:26 I'm all start. I actually was brought up in Quaker church. When I was a young girl till I was maybe ten years old. So I was always taught non-violence than peace and you know being a pacifist things like that. I actually remember my parents protesting the Vietnam War and I was real small maybe four five six years old and going to protest with them and actually seeing pictures of you have slaughtered villagers men women and children in Vietnam and those images actually stayed with me. I can't even still see that in my mind now so my upbringing was really centered around, you know, non-violence and making a difference and when you see an injustice, what can you do to speak out about it? And we moved to Erie when I was about 10 and have a very small Quaker Meeting group just about 5 to 10 people that meet occasionally. So unfortunately, I've kind of lost some of that background that I enjoyed this a small child.

02:25 I thought you bought them.

02:28 I am a second World War.

02:31 Baby boomer generation and my father was in the Second World War.

02:39 And all of my cousin's I mean all of my uncles and two of my aunts served in the Second World War.

02:47 And whenever there was any kind of a family get-together, that's what they talked about my whole life.

02:52 I just always assumed when I got a beige I would die with the list and I had an experience.

03:03 I wanted was probably 7:30 to grade. I saw friends fathers Marine uniform and I I knew that I would one day have one.

03:16 And when I turned eighteen there wasn't much.

03:21 Prospect in my hometown and the Vietnam War was getting going pretty good. So I enlisted in December of 1964.

03:32 So, how did you make it for both of you? How did you make your way to the to the peace Coalition in Erie the peace initiative in Erie?

03:44 Maybe maybe four sit at how are you like what changed in you that that?

03:51 Yeah, what brought you to the group for me personally, I actually was unaware of the peace initiative and I saw an article in the paper about a peace rally they were having in Perry Square. So I decided to attend and took a friend in and some family members and I think at that time I kept thinking the war in Iraq would be ending soon. So maybe is in an individual person didn't really need to speak out against it that you know this shocking on mission accomplished in the victory that was proclaimed in 2003. I thought that was it that was going to be the end and then it was over after about a year or so for me seeing that the war was continuing and it seemed more unjust and I just felt that I needed to kind of take a stand and try to do the little bit that I could to speak out against the war in Iraq.

04:48 About 4 years ago.

04:52 The war in Iraq was going pretty good. And I sign the paper where a nun that is you was protesting it at an army recruit.

05:04 Trailer Gannon College

05:06 And I spent several days.

05:11 Not handling it real. Well, I'm I was just running around the house screaming and yelling and cursing and swearing and I decided I would get a hold of you and and and give you a piece of my mind cuz I thought of you.

05:26 I contacted you I contact again and they gave me your phone number. I called you and you suggested we meet at your office so I came down.

05:40 I have no intention of liking you or trusting you and we said I would talk for about 45 minutes and

05:50 I always do that you suggested that I join the peace movement.

05:55 And I couldn't think of a good reason not to so I did.

06:02 I really didn't.

06:04 I really didn't join the peace movement to promote. Peace out. My main goal is to keep the peace movement away from the monetary from harassing military or protesting the military or anything like that.

06:23 And how did you come to that?

06:28 What do you mean? Have I come that?

06:33 Well that that position. Why did you feel strongly about that? I've gotten about the peace movement not protesting the military.

06:42 When I came I'm a Vietnam veteran.

06:46 And when I came home from Vietnam, we were told when we were processing out in California that we should not wear uniforms in public because it wasn't safe.

07:02 It's probably the most devastating thing that was ever told.

07:07 And when I left the base or was it or nuns outside the base protesting?

07:15 And I have since been told it the troops weren't harassed in airports and stuff. Like we were told they were but I don't know I

07:25 I don't know and

07:27 Mike I did I knew that we had to work going on. I didn't I didn't support the Iraq or even before it started. I didn't I didn't support it.

07:39 But I didn't want the I didn't want the troops soldiers harassed. I am all for harassing the politicians.

07:50 But I just got couldn't handle seeing the troops harassing at this point seven years into this. I haven't heard a very very few instances where they were.

08:07 When did you or how did you get to a position against the Iraq War?

08:14 I don't I didn't believe the Bush Administration when they told us the reasons for going to end in do Iraq. I knew that Saddam Hussein was

08:24 Not a nice guy, but there's a lot of nut nice guys around the world and I couldn't see I couldn't see just picking on him just because you and I I didn't believe.

08:36 I didn't believe for a minute that that a sama Bin Laden and and Saddam Hussein working together because I didn't believe their egos would allow them.

08:48 I didn't believe that he had weapons of mass destruction ready to put on missiles. And if you did they couldn't hit us anyway.

09:00 What was it like for you coming from your background really military family and then being a vet feeling strongly about the military, but also feeling strongly against the war in Iraq. What was it like when you took a stand publicly?

09:20 It was frustrating intimidating. I don't like public speaking and one of my first in counters was speaking in front of the CIA. Erie city council and was a bunch of people there and I was scared to the point. I was almost sick and I I still don't like I don't I don't like getting up in front in front of people and telling my story.

09:50 Can I have a comment on that to I've been with Father remember one street demonstration we did when Hillary Clinton came to town and we were standing out front with her and the worst signs and a lot of pro Warren pro-life people out there and one man came over and he was screaming at us and calling us all sorts of nasty names and saying that you're unpatriotic and I think Bob and I both agree that you know, we left this country and we're grateful to live here and just because we don't support the war in Iraq doesn't mean we're not patriotic but this one gentleman was really screaming at Bob that he was a communist and things like that and I'm thinking you don't even know Bob's plenty of you. You don't know that he supports the military and he is not a communist. So for me, it was difficult to stand there and listen to this man yell at him. You know what they yell at me. I don't like that either but I figured while I can just handle it. I'll just ignore it or whatever. But when I see the other people in the peace movement getting yelled at or harassed her, you know called me.

10:50 Giving the finger and things like that to me. That's kind of a little bit painful cuz I feel like they just don't give us a chance to understand where we're coming from. So I get Bob lot of credit for speaking out publicly because it tends to put you in that late. That isn't always true.

11:09 And when I get into it confrontational situation like Lord described, it upsets me a little because I don't feel that as a member of the peace movement. I should I should give it back because I would greatly like to

11:27 You've been very very effective. You've been very effective in those kind of situations actually here army officer who I am extremely proud of he's flying Black Hawk helicopters for the Army right now in it in Baghdad. He will be there for until next April or possibly several months past that supposed to be one year term, but

12:00 Because of the of the alleged possibility of a drawdown they may extend him for two or three months rather than put other troops in there.

12:11 How do you negotiate your work for an end to the war in Iraq with with him? How does that work out?

12:23 Rather, well he he does not.

12:27 He does not support. He does not support the war in Iraq and

12:32 Neither do most of the people with him. He says they are there for each other to take care of each other. It's their job.

12:41 But they don't support the reasons were there.

12:46 One of the one of the things that I've learned from you is that constant focus on that the it's the decision-makers who have met and and all of us as taxpayers who need to end the war.

13:02 Yes, but the problem is how because you know anybody we elect.

13:12 You know, I I don't I think the term honest politician is is an oxymoron.

13:19 I mean they may be honest when you're running for election, but two months after they're in there. They're all the same.

13:26 I hear some frustration there.

13:29 Yeah, I've had for a long time I

13:32 It's hard when it when I vote because I don't know if I want my guy to win or not because if the other guy wins, I'm mad that that my guy lost but if my guy wins and I'm embarrassed that I helped put him in.

13:47 Has been difficult.

13:51 Laura do you want to talk about what it was like for you the first times you were making that step from I know you've been very involved in very good work the Ophelia project then but when you publicly were in support of ending the war in Iraq working for peace.

14:14 Hi, I would say I have some family members and neighbors and other people that probably don't appreciate my efforts for ending the war in Iraq, and I find that kind of disappointing and it is hard and sometimes I'm quiet and just take action when I'm with a group instead of individually on my own. I think it's easier when you have the backing of supportive people that believe in the same issues, but you do so sometimes I feel very silence that I am unable and then kind of disappointed in myself for not standing up for my beliefs more and speaking out more strongly against the worst.

14:53 What would you say for both of you was the the part of the work or maybe an action or a part of the work that that you were most that you thought was most effective.

15:11 Are that you are most excited about being part of.

15:17 It's safer for me. It's the 4,000 ribbons that we have which is a tribute to the US fallen troops in Iraq both men and women and we started that with a small group Canary peace initiative and the local chapter of Iraq vets against the war but we have I think there's four thousand three hundred and about seventy-five ribbons. And that was like a week or two ago the count and we have what we call the Journey of the ribbon. So this display travels to local churches in high schools and colleges and anywhere that will take them in a peaceful Manner and we have a banner and a small framed 8 by 10 plaque that goes with that honoring the men and women, but when you when you write the names on each individual ribbon to me, it's very sad and and again just the reality of these young people that are dying and to see their names and their Hometown and how they died lots of

16:17 Guardsman lots of 19 year old kids 20 22 year olds. I just checked the list a week ago and we have about 40 more names that we need to make the ribbons for so I'm kind of planning that as my weekend activity, but to me, that's very

16:35 Sad and again frustrating cuz the war continues to go on and on and on and then I wonder when we'll be able to stop writing these names. So I look forward to that day.

16:45 How are the ribbons received?

16:47 I think very well because even people that are pro war they also honor the ribbons and want to support that effort and then people that are anti-war look at it more as you look at this huge loss. Look at the sadness of all this sin of these red ribbons that we have and when you see them strung together, the display goes on for blocks and blocks.

17:10 We have people hang them from ceilings from poles and bulletin boards in glass display cases piled on tables on. So anyway that you see them. They're very dramatic and effective and really gives you pause regardless if you're for or against any War.

17:30 Remember that it was one of the Iraq War veterans locally whose idea that was and and who really initiated the project brought brought that idea to the group and we pick the payment.

17:49 But what about for you? What would you say was that action? That was that you would say was the most effective or that you were most?

17:56 I'm glad about being part of its frustrating to is frustrating that there needs to be.

18:09 Peace movement

18:14 It's it and it's frustrating the the support we get. I mean we plan but we plan a rally in Perry Square and we planned it for a month or two months and we get 50 people there one rally and it was a good rally we had about estimates of around a thousand people. That was probably the best rally we've had in at that point that I believe that was at the 5 year anniversary.

18:45 And

18:47 I really had hope I mean that was that was the first loss of the only big rally we've had but it was the first it was the first big rally we had and I thought we were starting to get the message people are starting to realize what a what a hoax this war is and what at what an injustice this war is and maybe we're going to start getting something done and it just kind of went downhill after that. I mean nobody.

19:19 You know, we just can't get people interested.

19:23 They seem to be worried about their 401ks and whether Michael Jackson's doctor drugged him, but they don't worry about are killing our own children for

19:33 Why Schaeffer Oil?

19:37 Talk about how you decided to participate in the Civil Disobedience action.

19:44 Can you get locked up?

19:53 Why don't you suggested that but it sounded like a good idea in?

19:58 And I went along with it. I don't regret. I don't regret it. It was it was interesting we

20:10 Sexodus 99 it was blocked the entrance to the federal courthouse in Erie, Pennsylvania.

20:20 And they try to get us to leave and we wouldn't they kept on us while we're going to rescue in 15 minutes and they didn't and so we sent and finally after a couple hours today and but once we were they were they were fair, but very firm while they were arresting us. But once they got us back in the holding cells wheeler funeral Liga site and visited and and the Marshall would come along and and Heckle me because I could see my cigarettes but couldn't touch him and

20:56 And then we went to court and they set a court date.

21:01 Then we went back to court and they find is $500 which

21:07 I'm proud to say I have not paid yet and and I won't willingly at least.

21:14 Three of the younger people who had well, I guess more Alive's. I mean they were in college and stuff. They paid Their fines when they started pushing and pressuring us.

21:30 The wrestler people paid Their fines except for you and and myself

21:36 Like you said you you have nothing they can't get anything and they're not going to get it for me because I won't give it to them.

21:44 Experience Story 2 from how she made that decision to also participate.

21:51 My Fitbit group had discerned.

21:55 We had we had ourselves experience action in Erie when the war started and that was right before it has turned out to be the day the worst started.

22:07 And we block the entrance of the federal building that day.

22:11 It just seems that that the longer the war went on every year. We had a demonstration every year the war increased and

22:21 It seems that a stronger action was called for and so the group really discerned that and I did some trade planning and training and it did I think it's a message out to more people, especially when a six of us went to jail for 5 days for not paying the fine.

22:47 It it gave us a way to have conversations with more people and kept the issue.

22:54 All of the Iraq War

22:58 Front and center for more people which is which is a shame in a lot of ways that

23:08 But it's not that this working just be going on and on I think we've all talked about that and it's not just this one. This one's really but it's it's sort of a permanent state of war that we've moved into and there's almost no recognition of it even happening in the in the local area. And that was especially difficult when I was working at Gannon University and

23:35 For there to be silenced there was especially difficult.

23:40 I've heard it said that the Silence of the clergy is deafening and I think it's I think it's true. Nobody speaking at nobody very few are speaking out.

23:51 About this war very few of the of our politicians of our clergy. I mean, there's just it's like you say, it's just it's just we're in a state of war and we're going to stay in a state of War.

24:04 We know who knows till when?

24:09 They talk about pull out say talk about reduction in forces, but it's not being that it's just it's as far as I'm concerned. It's all talk.

24:19 If I think when the group took that action to that those who have families or small children in felt, they couldn't take that action or we're just too afraid of being arrested that you gave us some strengthens some power to kind of keep going cuz it's something that not everybody has the guts to do. So, I thought that was almost those nine people speaking out for all of us in the peace initiative and having the guts to do something that some of us just, you know weren't interested in or couldn't handle so I thought that was Brave of you to another others in the group also,

24:56 What did it feel like an action that a lot of that we did together and people participated in a lot of different ways. So that was went to prison we went we went to the Erie County jail, and we went there I guess maybe 7 in the evening 6 or 7. I'm not really would sure what time it was when I get to my cell.

25:20 And nobody said much but the next morning when they got the paper and realized who we were we were we were treated differently we were

25:33 Almost shown respect from the inmates the other inmates of the guards or the guards back this I had one guard tell me.

25:43 Outside of the cell block that the guards were behind this

25:48 They just couldn't say so.

25:51 Next remember a number of them were in the guard.

25:54 And had been called up or were.

26:00 We're at risk of being called up.

26:04 Yeah for the women to we were we were treated very well, but I remember the first we got there the first night then there were some women that met us right away and said we've been waiting for you to come we heard you were coming.

26:16 So, you know Katie white and I were really received well and had some incredible conversations with the women in jail was really something.

26:26 Was a powerful experience and then there was there with the folks that were outside.

26:33 Number of days and we would hear about that too.

26:38 That really impressed that really impress the other the other folks in the prison that there would be people outside supporting us.

26:46 I thought that was one of our best street rallies. We had quite a few people and you know still a lot of homemade signs kind of giving credit to the that you re people that were arrested. And remember I'm one of our members were quickles daughter had a sign we're proud of you Dad and I had I was kind of really just a nice, you know family sign and a lot of the Benedictine and other sisters were there for and it was a just a nice coming together the community, you know, just show that support and so they were kind of term that you re 6 which was interesting.

27:20 And that's what king says going to king size you get dramatize a situation to highlight it and I hope that's when I when I proceeded to get arrested. My wife was a little nervous and before the one before our last trial where we were sentenced we had been led to believe that we could face six months in prison and I had neighbors call me and tell me that don't worry about your house will watch will take care of things will make sure your ass snow is plowed and everything like that.

28:01 And while my wife back me I have been led to believe that that was the first and only time she would if I do this everyday, I don't I don't think it would go over too well with for the next time.

28:18 But you never know.

28:25 When I think about the way you think about the future what's next it seemed that for the last maybe a year-and-a-half. There was a lot of focus around electoral change and getting as many representatives that would end the war quickly elected to office.

28:51 Reflections now and what's next?

28:56 That is a big mystery. I don't know. What's next. I mean, we've got we talk to you know, what else can we? Do? You know, it's it's extremely frustrating these people.

29:10 Run out of platform that gives us hope of ending the war and when they get elected, that's all forgotten.

29:19 You know, it's Politics as Usual fund a war.

29:23 We're still paying $5,000 a second to for this war.

29:28 You want to accomplishing? What have we accomplished? We've got.

29:34 Better relations with the rest of the world now it was President Obama than we did was Bush.

29:42 I mean when Bush was in the world hated us, you know.

29:49 And there's the fear that the Iraq War will just continue in Afghanistan because they're so many troops that are simply shifted from Iraq to Afghanistan. So hopefully Afghanistan will not be the next Iraq, which it sounds like it may be already is but that that fear of just that ongoing NeverEnding cuz we've already been in Afghanistan longer than Iraq for about a year or so just that the hoping for the world peace and an end to all the violence and I think the speaker that we just had an eerie young Iraq that twenty-one-year-old Josh diver. He was talking about the insurgents how American families or government would never tolerate someone breaking down your door and handcuffing your father or your husband and ruining your belongings and rummaging through your drawers and cupboards looking for things that weren't there and we're throwing our government.

30:49 Could they please leave and then as the US forces got a little more firmer and then violence so did the Iraqi people. So yeah, I think just that whole thing. I don't know what these answer is but we have some good speakers who have kind of educated us. You know, I was late people that have been there and witness a lot of these things and I think now that that's her coming back talking about it and sharing some of the horror stories, unfortunately and some of things that they've had to do that they don't really believe we're with the right thing.

31:23 Unfortunately, most of the veterans that have horror stories aren't going to share them for.

31:30 Many years did Cam. I know that from experience?

31:34 When I came back from Vietnam, I didn't talk about it for years 20 years. I was married for 15 years before my wife really do anything.

31:46 Has been interesting to me that some of the strongest energy in the group has come from the Iraq war vets. And sometimes it's been. And then they move on with their lives which they offered which they have to do, but they have had a very strong message and have brought a lot of energy to us in terms of Direction Focus.

32:16 Need to end the war.

32:18 To back up a little bit you ask one of my best moments in the peace movement and I don't have to say it would be a March. I went to in Washington DC and there were there were just thousands and thousands and thousands of people in the street.

32:36 I'd I heard the estimate but I forget right now what it was, but I know there was more people there than I've ever seen in one spot in my life walking from the White House to the Capitol Building.

32:48 Chanting and shouting and door counter-protesters, of course, but we have numbered them by a lot.

32:58 I do think that the time for hitting the streets is coming again in the in a large way soon, and some of the politicians that were elected on it Anna and the war platform aren't going to notice until there's massive people in the streets again, and I would love to see that. I mean years ago, they were organized the Million Man March on Washington. And you know, I I've talked about a big March and they say, well you have to get a permit and you have to get all you have to do it on a Saturday with a permit and I say why to my Capital if I want to go there and Wednesday afternoon and scream and yell

33:39 Who's to stop me what laws to stop me? And you know, I don't think we'll be much John until we get 10 million people in Washington DC on a Wednesday when, when Congress happens to be possibly working that week.

33:55 And do you know surround the Capitol building and tell him hey you're going to sit there to do you do something.

34:03 Yeah.

34:06 Maybe think about what messages you might have Laura went message. Would you have two teenagers?

34:16 About War and Peace issues and Bob last the same thing either for teenagers or for further vets coming home. I would suggest different ways to end conflict nonviolent ways.

34:32 You know violence only seems to breed more violence and you know, obviously that's an issue today with a lot of the teenagers in the young people in the streets and the different things are going on. Both of us coming home from war with, you know, you getting into some violent actions and things like that the way they were trained it's almost like they don't know any better, but I think you noticed if if they could find some positive ways to solve conflict instead of the violent destructive ways.

35:00 I just read a singing in I believe the paper. I believe the magazine called the week.

35:10 The oldest

35:12 Soldier from World War 1 recently died

35:17 He was a hundred and eleven, I believe and he said for the last many many years of his life that World War 1 ended by men sitting around a table talking and and hashing out the differences and he come to an agreement. Why didn't they do that prior to killing millions and millions of people

35:40 Absolutely good Christian minutes.

35:44 Nothing is being accomplished over there.

35:48 And people will argue baffle say always built schools and hospitals and Roads that we have destroyed libraries and we built them because we bombed them and blew them up in the first place. There was a captain here in Erie that said about one road that went down by his base that they bombed every night and fixed everyday. What's it what's the point of this?

36:16 Her individual lives with just think about yourself think about your friends for individualized. What's make what makes the change?

36:26 What what makes up what's to being someone that's willing to put time and energy into ending the war?

36:34 I think just anyone in any Walk of Life should do what they can to make a positive difference for their community and the world in general. So that might sound a little bit over optimistic. But you know that the little bit of power that we have to make a positive change here and there I think we should use that to her full of bility and I think two part of my wanting to get involved out with just feeling so sad about the warriena feeling so sad about the troops that were being killed killed our troops and the Iraqi civilians and children the other totally innocent things like that. So, you know, where do you take that feeling you note it maybe take it into action.

37:17 I agree with Laura that you know, it is our own individual responsibility to try to make this world a better place to live, but it's very frustrating and nothing happens.

37:32 The both of you have stayed with this work difficult frustrating work in a lot of ways what keeps you going in it?

37:44 The war still going on because some people are stepping back and thinking well, I can't do anything. It didn't help so therefore all do nothing. But what about you cuz you're extremely active at this a lot longer than any one of us.

38:04 I think he could do everything to try to make that culture shift happen.

38:10 Use it to raise the questions when I when I heard Josh the other night as a young person must is right out of college right out of high school right out of high school had never been exposed to contact his objection, but somehow is able to listen to his heart.

38:27 And and stand up and request Co status when everybody around him.

38:35 That that took a tremendous amount of courage and if it is even one little thing that we do that helps other people do that that helps young people consider that helps people look in their heart and take a stand.

38:53 It's worth it.

38:55 Okay, I need last and the last thing you want to that you want to say about your own work in the peace movement or a message that you would have for others. I think there should be a lot more young people involved maybe High School College age kids and I know they are all over the country. But in here it seems like a little bit of a law and I always feel like if they ever reinstate the draft then they're all going to be out here protesting and speaking their mind, but hopefully it won't come to that.

39:24 I have been opposite view of right. I hope they do an inactive draft because I think that'll foursome. The young people at never force him into the streets.

39:35 You mean when it's touching them they're going to they're going to do something about it.

39:41 Or do more about it.

39:44 Yeah, so that action could go either way. We're good. I want to just thank both of you for both being willing to do this and to share and for our undoing work together. It's really been very very positive for a good experience.