Karl Friedman and Maurice Shevin

00:02 My name is Maurice shovin. I am 58 years old. Today is January 7th, 2011 and we are in the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute in Birmingham, Alabama have the privilege of interviewing call Friedman who is my senior ball partner friend and mentor.

00:25 My name is Carl Freedman. 86 1/2 years old. This is January 7th, 2011. We are at Birmingham Alabama and mr7 is a dear friend of mine from the time. He was born and I solicited him all of his life to plan to come to my call firm and he did which I did not start this way called tell us about your early days where you were born when you were born where you were born.

01:04 How was the

01:06 Born on May 23d 1924

01:10 In a little house across the Northside of Elmwood Cemetery is a residential area.

01:20 I was born on the kitchen table by Midwife and the same applies to my older sister.

01:29 And I lived there for a short. Of time. We did have inside Plumbing.

01:39 We did not have electricity. We had the lamp oil lamps and wood stove.

01:48 And that house lasted for a very long time. I was there just a year or so ago could take some pictures because they were moving the house away know you were born there. And then you your family moved to the South side when I move to the South side next to st. Vincent's hospital. That was a big feature location at the South Side was built around until it. Tell us tell me the difference between the Northside and Southside and what that meant to the Jewish community.

02:26 Birmingham became a city because it was the intersection of two railroads.

02:33 And the main railroad ran east and west

02:39 And on the Northside of that railroad was a residential area.

02:46 And most Jewish people came to that place back in the mid 1800 and Built Homes or bought homes and they established a Jewish cemetery. In fact, there were two Cemetery established. Well one for the benefit of those people who will consider reform Jews and one for the rest of us who will either Orthodox or conservative.

03:19 And in the the population of South almost all of the Jews began on the North and which incidentally that was an industrial area to

03:33 And then there's people people gather wealth and wanted bigger and better houses and more facilities those who could afford move to the South.

03:47 The area that I was born in was actually the south side of the railroad, but it was not populated. It was a cemetery in their Jewish people began to build nice homes in selecting areas up to a area code Highland Avenue. That was the demarcation of the development of housing.

04:13 And all born more Jewish people began to move across to the South side because the schools were excellent they are and what we reach out worldwide and there was running water and all electric facilities or being anticipated this growth and made it a better place to live. It also gave an opportunity to live on a mountain side so that you had higher elevations next neighborhood over there where the blacks and whites not anywhere in or around Birmingham was there such a thing as a mixed neighborhood none.

05:01 And it's a when you grew up did you know black children?

05:06 Yes, but that's not applicable to the vast majority of people I grew up with. It happened that my mother was a very liberal minded person and she was antivirus and she considered black people the equal of white people and she sort of instill that in her children, so I did have black true friends. What about what about your what tell me your memories of the Ku Klux Klan in Birmingham?

05:45 Unfortunately, the Ku Klux Klan was the dominant political element. It was the survival of people who hated black people and after the Civil War.

06:00 They maintained that the segregation in the separation of the races and all white people thought black people were inferior and black people thought that to the plan.

06:19 What's so powerful politically that you could not get elected to anything at City Hall or at the County Courthouse are for that matter throughout the state of Alabama if you weren't a member of the clan.

06:32 What's the plan also had Prestige not all of them were violent antagonized people, but the plan had its mark on everything. And in fact during the Depression years. They had signs in the windows when members are playing.

06:55 Things like that to the separation.

06:58 And the application of that was enforced by the saying what was the relationship between the clan and the Jewish community?

07:08 The Clans main objective was separation.

07:14 What they had Avenue from hate

07:18 A century black people were created

07:22 And dislike my all white people.

07:26 And

07:28 Then

07:30 It was a man has affected with Jewish people. There was any semitism around it, but it was not violence. That was very rare.

07:46 Emphasis that the client had also was anti-catholic and they were catholic institutions, which was treated the file fashion Stone The Rock to burn things like that. There was an avid movement pressure Movement by the Clans against Catholic people.

08:11 We were very fortunate that the clan had no program.

08:16 Find a cemetery.

08:18 And in fact many members of the clan and many Jewish members join Elks clubs in downtown clubs Social Clubs Courthouse activities Jewish people thrived with we had a safety net. There was a gentleman by the name of Joe dannenberg to own an interest in a pawn shop and he was known as cousin Joe.

08:50 He had a lot of customers from the plan. I guess they came and bought sheets and pillowcases and guns and things like that from cousin Joe.

09:02 And

09:04 American Legion was very active and it was sort of dominated by the Klan with many many Jewish people were members and there was really Harmony.

09:17 If a Jewish person felt abused or threatened they go visit mr. Dunderberg and he would get it straightened out. And if it's playing didn't like something that I Jewish family or a Jewish person was doing or advocating they sought out cousin Joe and he took care of it. So I don't know of any situations where there was a violent contact between the clan and Jewish people you describe your mom is liberal.

09:50 What would her I mean, what would she say about something like Joe denenberg or the clan the den of birds having to be very close friends?

10:02 My parents

10:05 My mother had an interesting beginning she was from a very wealthy family in Berlin. They owned breweries and the name pilsner urquell has remained through our family. We still talk about that as part of our history, but they were very egotistical Jewish people and they felt that they were Superior to everyone including other Jewish people and they are the ones who stuck it out to the end because they felt that they will not vulnerable. My mother's whole family was wiped out what my mother was in it the egotism and all that that that family of hers had and she more than once ran away as result of it and when she came to Birmingham to she was a loner

11:01 She started a relationship with Arch Bishop to learn of this. Diocese is headed for divorce in Mobile.

11:09 And he and my mother worked on some interface things.

11:14 My mother would never permit us to use the wrong words for black people. We call them color but not Niger and my mother manage anybody who did use that language when I had a birthday my mother invited all of my friends, but in our neighborhood under the Jordan name of a black ghetto and I had friends that we played ball with or skated with and so black people invited to my house and it really worried our neighbors, but nothing really came of it except mother acquire name of being different and being a crusade and

12:05 I think she raised three kids who also accepted the fact that segregation was wrong.

12:17 Carl's do you remember what the neighbors said when your mom invited to the black kids over your friends? They just got used to it in this ghetto behind. It was a black church. I don't know if the real name of someone gave their Appalachian of holy rollers and a minister black minister in that church met regularly and my mother made it a point to be a friend of that Minister and invited him to our house for Sunday dinner and he became a friend of our family.

12:52 And when he would come neighbors would come out and look and ask questions.

13:00 I'm home was filled with different kinds of people.

13:05 We knew homosexuality as children.

13:09 Black people that was a Chinese family. My mother adopted a relationship with all of them particular people who were in the entertainment industry. So mother was a sparkpoint and the neighbors were very reluctant and she was such a powerful personality that nobody challenged.

13:35 In those days when you had close family relationships, you called them my uncle and Aunt even though they were just dear friends and my mother became known as Aunt Cyd and hardly a month goes by that. Someone doesn't say I remember and said I knew and said so that was a spark plug that let me let me push it along to

14:04 College to your military service and and ask if this way where where where were you when the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor?

14:16 How was your day in college at the University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa?

14:22 We didn't know where Pearl Harbor was man, but we didn't know and we fought and zealously what was happening in Europe. We will wear the Jewish people were falling from Grace. There was a surge of scientism that beset us.

14:44 And

14:47 I believe that the time that went by.

14:53 Accentuated people's ability and desire

14:58 For hatred and them along to bed sides that with people who want to change.

15:06 Repeat the question. I'm moving to when did you decide to join the service? How did you get into the Army Air Force? Well essential it was a frog.

15:23 Conscription began immediately and it was an excuse 12 patriotism. I've never seen anything like it. It does not exist today, but we work about country and we said the United States is right, no matter what it does.

15:39 So we were anxious to get into The Fray and to avenge what the Japanese have done to us. And so we walked over to the military headquarters ROTC and began to volunteer.

15:54 And no.

15:57 They found that I was too short and too light to qualify.

16:03 And so I asked when could I come back and it said as soon as you reach the point where you qualify so I went back to the house and where I was living and I got a friend who had elevator shoes.

16:19 I drank a quart of milk and ate 6 bananas and I went back over there and they laughed because it was for an hours time I come back and so they just passed me on and

16:37 When we enlisted there were certain assurances giving us if they wanted us to stay in school. They wanted us to take military training and then then that got posted in the time where we were going to be involved in your hand.

16:54 And the need for proof of this accentuated many of the Prime the programs like to ERC the enlisted Reserve Corps, they say it away and we will call her to go to active duty and I was assigned to an infantry base and I was there for a couple of months.

17:17 And ran into a friend.

17:20 Who was stay or he was a member?

17:25 The Air Force

17:27 And I said, what is an Air Force Corporal doing here and if we may see his we're trying to get people to get in the Air Force to switch specialties.

17:38 And know that perked me up and another friend of mine and say well, you know, how do you do that? And he says well I gave him Sam's I said when you go to me says whenever someone's interested that was Saturday night buddy Soca and I took the exams Sunday morning and he shipped out Tuesday and I shipped out Thursday.

18:04 Louisiana and we didn't got into the airport and I qualified in all three categories rather hide at academic.

18:18 Competent

18:21 You either became a pilot Bombardier or navigate. I had never been in an airplane and I have no desire flying airplane and I wasn't looking for any responsibility. So I thought I'd be a bombardier because all you had to do is watch what's the next guy didn't drop your bombs to?

18:42 Everybody said I was crazy. It was a mad scramble to be a pilot. And so that's the way I went and when I graduated flying school.

18:54 It was 300 of us and only 15 receive commission and I was fortunate to be.

19:02 One of those 15 you were always younger than then then you always did things quicker. You were double promoted to you graduated college, really you enlisted early went to law school early. Tell it tell us about that. Tell it tell me about how you got into the practice of law.

19:29 Earliest in my life when I was exposed to strife.

19:35 Was in the late 1920s which were wonderful times rich people.

19:44 Two-car families

19:46 Before the Depression hit and when the Depression hit

19:51 I had two problems we were poor and I was very small.

19:57 And from that combination I was a very combative person and stood my ground against bigger and older people.

20:09 The school system had a requirement about how many could be in a class and if it was 32 or loud and 35 showed up. They took the top three and moved them up to know the height for a year and that happened to me four times. So I graduated grammar school 2 years.

20:29 And 3 years later, I graduated.

20:34 High School

20:37 Father

20:40 Barely could sustain the family in fact.

20:44 Rent was $35 a month since we couldn't pay it most of the time to the landlords of satisfied for us to stay there yet. No, physics physical capacity to help you go to school.

21:00 Show some friends wanted me to go and

21:05 I will always love the memory of those friends. They got me jobs in Tuscaloosa and things to do so I put myself through a year or so, and then I was called to active duty.

21:20 I had won an award from Governor Chauncey Sparks for excellence in ROTC. I was today top Cadet and Alabama that stood me in good stead in the military.

21:38 Move quickly along became a fighter pilot and join the permanent Squadron.

21:47 End

21:49 The law was running down.

21:52 And I had lost my father when I was a teenager and I was only support for my mother and a baby sister incident had made with sister was 75 last week.

22:11 So

22:13 I was going to have to find a way to support I had moved to the high value. I was highly paid it was $150 a month that put my mother and my sister and myself on Easy Street. I sent money home every month and mother receive $50 a month because his dad was a war veteran.

22:42 Again, I had to deal with economics and I had an offer to go and teach fighter pilots in Brazil, but that was a long-term commitment. We would have thousand dollars a month.

22:55 Then they took my airplane away and I had to have two MOS is military occupational specialty and

23:06 I chose to run the gymnasium in Sumter South Carolina that was delightful experience. And then I was assigned to Drudge Advocate General which I didn't know anything about an assignment buttons and stars and so forth and what up introduce myself. He was James T throwing he was a major from Dothan Alabama and we became good friends and he taught me how to pry court-martials and he says why don't you go to law school and I explained my financial situation and he says I know the dean didn't help when I graduated together. I want you to call him when you get out.

23:49 And go down and see him and he sent Dean Hepburn my military record not called the dean and he invited me down and in his office and he looked at my one-year record of college. That's all I really had credit score and he gave me three years.

24:09 Cop of college rights added to what I had performed in exchange for the military that I had and I got in the lost. I had so many jobs when I was in law school. I was refereeing I was teaching undergraduate courses. I ran along the Route I sold car car and finally, we got to the point of economic stability and

24:45 A friend by the name of Jimmy permit knew I was in law school and he contacted me and accelerated my law school and took me into the law firm. So I was considered part of the formation of sorority permit friend & Friedman.

25:06 Have been there 62 years what will run out of time so talk talk a little bit about I want to hear about your community involvement. Particularly. I think I understand your sense of social justice civil rights from your mom, but it talk about how that evidenced itself in the 1960s.

25:33 It's talk back earlier about 50s when we came home from the war.

25:39 And went to work the same old people were running all the Jewish organizations and they've been doing it for years for Generation substantially older and we were my mother's influence or encouraged her three children to be a part of community activities and no one or two wise men decided at the way to get this generation of mine involving Community was to put them on boards one particular man.

26:18 Name Max Hertrich

26:22 Put young people like myself and like your father Harold shaving who was Mentor mine young people on the board first attempt about sale and then at the Jewish Community Center and then the Birmingham Jewish Federation, we were snapped up and became actually the leaders of the Jewish community and I found it the more things that I took on the more things were asked of me.

26:56 And I found a

26:59 Spell great comfort in full film one of those things because it was the Hallmark of our family.

27:09 It has had a big impact on me and also gave me a name that people saw a new and remember and I helped innovate some of the wonderful new community activities.

27:27 I've had to leave that service of McCullers of a loan with my wife and I'm just now getting to the point where I can participate in a limited way again, but I'm not sorry for any sacrifice. I ever made for any of our Jewish organizations offer some of the organizations like the National Conference of Christians and Jews United Way or not.

28:01 Jewish oriented but they will correlation between Jewish people being in these Community organization is in hours.

28:13 Serving salmon as president of the other officers. Can you tell me what was happening in the early sixties when you would by then come into a position of leadership people calling you to do.

28:29 Well to get on people to go to work and so I have a lot of friends similarly situated and I knew that I could not be successful without strength other than my own and so I conscripted a lot of these people and they became presidents and officers of of all the organizations.

28:56 Didn't you turn in terms of what was going on in the city of Birmingham with the racial issues? How did you get involved there again? Go back to my mother.

29:07 I know I knew it was wrong.

29:10 And it was becoming violent and one night at a country club. So very prominent lawyer said that we got a fight on our hands black people are inferior than not getting the equal rights with white people and we going to war with interchange the city government. We're going to get people in there that are looking for and we raise money that night and all during the. Of the strife and violence and meetings and so forth. There was always a small Jewish presence because the Jewish Community decided that this was a battle for the rights of black people and we did not need to emboss that with your problems are Jewish needs that we provided the money and we provide a little bit of leadership for we met with the leaders of the black community The Minister's Martin Luther King.

30:10 Ralph Abernathy all of the lustrous people who were involved we dealt with them and

30:20 I was mentored by a fellow named James a head who died recently was under 5 years old, but it was our fight and I had some repercussions of bullet hole in the front of my house. My front yard football my house was burned with

30:42 Women's hair spray burn letters 8 ft tall and 100 ft wide that said Niger lover and I know others. Nasty telephone calls and Law Firm was besieged with criticism. We never lost a client who said I'm leaving you because you are on the wrong side of this issue. Did you talk to Bobby Kennedy positivity? I formed a bank with so with nine black.

31:25 Participants and three white participants and we went through all the Hoops that you had to do many people downtown who own property would not rent to our bank because it had black that had never been in this at Centre of black person on the board of a Bancomer Bank.

31:53 We tried everything we could we actually

31:57 Couldn't get a chart and we knew it was political pressure from the Alabama senators.

32:05 And so we decided we needed to throw in the sponge and Arthur Shores who's leading advocate in the black community.

32:15 He was the Martin Luther King of Birmingham.

32:21 Say it had a lot of relations with the federal government because of the standing School Board to school house door, and he said the car let me

32:36 Have you talked to Bobby Kennedy because the government primary of the Kennedys are trying to create jobs and positions and Elevate black people.

32:48 And he called the switchboard.

32:52 A Bobby Kennedy, which is something more discreet than calling the Attorney General's office and he got a phone and he introduced me and mr. Kennedy asked several intelligent questions and he I'm sure became impressed with the fact that we were trying to do something good for black people and that was one of his personal agendas.

33:21 He asked me how he could contact me the next day the day that I was speaking to him was Friday. So, I'm sorry. What's Thursday?

33:33 And he said if you hear from me tomorrow early the next morning A Man by the name of p t t i e d e was a deputy Comptroller of the currency headquartered in Memphis and mr. T do who had been our focus of

33:51 Anguish who had been the bearer of bad news asked if they could come one more time and visit with us and they came Monday and Wednesday. We have a charger in open bank. Okay. Tell me this your nickname is Bob or Bob but everyone calls you Uncle Bob's your uncle Bubba. What do you account that to the mub comes from my sister who was 3 years older and it was the best she could do a brother and it was Boba. That's why we came out and so everybody knew me as above hours. I'm with the grammar school as Bubba Freeman. In fact, I never had used the name Carl until I was in the military.

34:49 And as far as and when did you transition to Uncle and is that what does that mean to you?

35:00 Date we called Uncle and Aunt then the next Generation began to call me Uncle Bubba.

35:10 And

35:12 That ruin it spread and all my friends and everybody I dealt with uses Uncle Bubba has a name and what was taught me? What was Uncle Bob's newsletter?

35:24 A friend's daughter went to college.

35:28 And I wrote her a letter telling her by force with things were happening at home at the next year. My son and my nephew and several other Jewish kids one. Also, I sent them all two letter keeping them posted about what was going on in the synagogues in the Federation and what was happening in racial areas and things of that nature and

35:54 It grew to several hundred letters that I wrote several times a year.

36:02 And do you remember how many liters?

36:09 It began in 1962.

36:15 And it stopped last year. It's going to be made into a book one of my daughters is

36:27 Prepared

36:30 That's fantastic. I always think of Uncle Bubba as a term people give you because they feel so close to there are hundreds of people. I don't know who who feel that way about you.

36:47 I'm grateful for it because I do love children and I I like to help them stay on the right road. That was a story which had some proved right if we choose kid got in trouble.

37:06 I would give them one get-out-of-jail-free. So I had to get a lot of them out of jail for minor offenses. They still tell me about kids needing a get-out-of-jail-free and last night. That's what I did. I want to call him. Now. One of our Jewish boy who had domestic problems. So heartwarming experience.

37:40 Can I ask Carl about your mom? She seems like a big influence on you, and I was just wondering if you could describe her a little bit more.

37:51 Mother was well-educated.

37:54 Very articulate

37:57 Very very self-sacrifice

38:02 When she died going through the things on her desk, there were three legal size pages that had names addresses telephones and birthdays and anniversaries and mother met to call on every one of those she called them. She bought them gift. She was just reaching out. People loved her and appreciated her leadership. And so I knew I had said sometimes Jewish girls would move to Birmingham either to finish their education or looking for a job or something and they didn't have any family here on my mother would take them in and

38:55 Totally woke you up in our family and some of them are grandmothers and grandfathers.

39:05 I think she was born with the name of cydonia.

39:11 It was it was I think I want her naturalization papers City inside. Ddy Elizabeth and her maid Stein her father was a reform rabbi.