Jennifer Nuchia and Stephen Nuchia

Transcript

Transcript

[00:00]
STEVEN WOOD NUCCI: I’m Steven Wood Nucci (sp?). I’m 47. Today is the 13th of November, 2008. We’re in Tulsa, Oklahoma and I’m here to interview my wife.
JENNIFER COLLEEN NUCCI: My name is Jennifer Colleen Nucci. My age is 33. Today’s date is November 13th, 2008. I’m in Tulsa, Oklahoma and my wife to Steve is I’m his wife.
SN: So, when you heard that The Story Corps was coming to town you were really excited, in fact energized. I expected you to be interested, but I was really kind of surprised by how energized. Why is it important for you to tell this story?
JN: Well, I would like to think of myself as a historian, or one day to claim myself to be a historian when I finally get finished with school and one of the things as I go through my history classes is I’m constantly reading in, you know, Medieval history or even a not so far back history stories about average people that they tend to gloss over. And something that I’ve noticed is they talk about infant mortality, how often children died back in those times, like it was just an everyday occurrence and the mothers tended to not get so attached to their children. Like, oh well, you know, another one just died, so let’s just bury this one and move on to the next one and we’ll have 14 so we can lose three and that’s no big deal. And I just, I know from personal experience that’s not the way things happen.
SN: You don’t think it happened that way back then either?
JN: No. No. I know that no matter how many children you have you don’t just bury one and it’s OK.
SN: We’re here to tell the story of India’s life, how she’s affected the rest of the family. We’ll start with her and then I’ve got some other questions I can ask. Can you describe your family at the time India was conceived?
JN: Yea. I was with my ex-husband at the time. I had a two-year-old son named Michael and we, you know, we had, we were a very young family. I was in my early twenties and we had a rocky history, as a lot of people in these times do. I guess maybe that’s timeless, I don’t know, but we found out that we were going to have a child and we were ecstatic and especially happy when we found out it was going to be a little girl.
SN: What are your memories of the pregnancy?
JN: Actually it was great. It was the best pregnancy I’ve had to date. I’ve had five children and she’s the only one that never gave me any problems actually. The pregnancy with my oldest son was hideous, it was horrible, and so I was really not looking forward to the next pregnancy. But she really didn’t give me too many problems and so it was good. It was really good.
SN: So, July 18th, 1998?
JN: Yes, that was --
SN: So, walk me through that day.
JN: That day, well actually it started the night before. You know, I was tired and cranky all the 17th and Sean, my husband, came home that night. He had worked a double shift and he came home at 3:00 in the morning --
SN: Oh, great.
JN: -- and I told him not -- yea. I know. I told him not to get undressed or go to sleep because we were going to have to probably go to the hospital and of course he didn’t listen to me. And so there I was waking him up, you know, very early, you know, 8:00 in the morning, telling him we need to go, we need to go right now. And so we were driving to the hospital, which wasn’t very far away -- in Tulsa nothing’s very far away from anything. And it was so funny, on the way to -- I love garage sales -- and it was a Saturday morning and on the way to the hospital I remember thinking, we passed by several garage sales and I remember thinking, “Man, why’d it have to be today?” because there were some really good sales out. So, anyway, but all in all good spirits, nothing too long. It was really a good, a good labor, delivery, everything that you could ask for really.
SN: So, when you met her was she the person you expected her to be?
JN: She was better. She was better. She was this little quiet bundle of pinkness. I don’t really know how to describe it. Each child is different, every single one that you have. And it’s really amazing, the more children that you have to think that each one can be unique, but it’s true. You think eventually you’d run out and they’d start copying themselves, but they don’t. My son, her brother, was so different. He came out screaming and he’s still screaming and he’ll be thirteen in a couple months. Everything is such a struggle with that child and he’s so stubborn and I love him to death, but oh my goodness. She was just so different, she was just so easy. She was quiet and she never cried and she smiled early. I don’t -- and I know that I’m looking back on it as, you know, ten years later and, you know, kind of maybe through rose colored glasses, but I’ve asked. I’ve asked people what was she really like and everybody that, you know, I’ve asked say the same thing, that she was just the easiest, happiest, she didn’t cry, she was just a great baby.
SN: I’ve seen pictures of Michael with India. They seemed to get along really well.
JN: OH, he adored her. She was the only one that could make him smile and be absolutely happy. I mean, he was ecstatic, he loved being around her. He was so happy and proud to be her big brother.
SN: He was only two, right?
JN: Yea, yea.
SN: You went back to work how long after she was born?
JN: Three months, right at three months.
SN: So, what went into that decision?
JN: Well, I was feeling good and I was happy and she was such a good baby and I didn’t have any worries about going back to work because I didn’t feel like anybody would have any trouble watching her. So --
SN: You say you were happy, that seems -- that’s kind of an unusual episode in your life, what, give me some examples of what were your days like in between in those three months?
JN: Well, I mean, to back up, you say that that was unusual, probably --
SN: You described the first part of your relationship to Sean as being kind of rocky and --
JN: Yea, it was rocky and I had horrible postpartum depression with Michael, but that was before postpartum depression was this great big tag word for everybody and people watched out for it and new mothers. Now of course people would immediately know what it was, but back then people really didn’t.
SN: But that doesn’t mean you got a lot of help for it with the later children either.
JN: No, but I got more than I did with Michael. Back then they just thought I was being moody and ungrateful. But anyway, with India I had absolutely no depression and I was almost euphoric and happy and energetic and thankful that I didn’t have to go through any of that again. And so, you know, I sat down with Sean and thought you know what, I’m doing great at home, you know, India’s happy and we can find a great sitter for her and so why not? You know, why not go to work and bring home money into the house? And so we found a great sitter for her, we found a retired nurse. I mean, who’s a better --
SN: Yea.
JN: -- person than that than a retired nurse?
SN: So, what kind of -- tell me about the job that you got.
JN: I was working in a basically a large travel agency called Center (sp?) Travel Agency --
[10:00]
-- working here for American Airlines helping people plan trips, vacations, things like that, helping people when bizarre freak snowstorms hit Dallas, things like that. That was great, that was a lot of fun. But anyway, yea, I wasn’t at that job very long though.
SN: No. No, not really. So, October 23rd, how long had you been back at work?
JN: I had been at work, October 23rd was a Friday that was my, that was the last, that was the Friday of my second week.
SN: So, let’s walk through that day.
JN: Well, it was a normal -- well, it wasn’t a normal day actually. There’s a, kind of a cold snap and I dressed India fairly warmly and Michael too and dropped the kids off at the sitter’s house, it was a home day care. And my mother was working with me at the time and so I picked her up and, you know, anyway, my mom was -- I’m sorry. My mother was with me when we dropped the kids off and normally Michael never had the typical don’t leave me, don’t leave me, I don’t want to stay at the sitters’. He was perfectly happy to stay at the sitter’, he didn’t care one way or another, he was very happy. And of course India was an infant; she didn’t care. But this particular day was really, really bizarre because as I dropped India off I handed her off to Mary and Michael ran to me screaming no, no, no, don’t leave, don’t leave, don’t leave! And I couldn’t figure out what in the world his problem was because he had never ever done that before. I mean, to this day I still don’t know why. I mean, I guess kids do things like that, but in retrospect it’s kind of haunting.
SN: It looms large in hindsight.
JN: Yea. Anyway, no, no, no, don’t leave me, but I was running late and had to get to work, so I peal him off of me and sat him on the floor and say, you know, Mommy loves you, I got to go to work. I reached up, kissed Indie on the, you know, cheek, Mommy loves you, bye-bye. And ran out the door so Michael couldn’t get a chance to grab onto me again, and went to work. The day was fine, we had a meeting at lunchtime about 11:00, 11:15, something like that, with some vendors or something. They had brought in lunch, so there were a group of probably 20, 25 of us in the conference room, my mother included, and we were all smiling, laughing, some joke that I can’t remember now was going around. And my supervisor called me out and had this really serious look on his face and I couldn’t figure out what in the world I’d done wrong, because I knew I hadn’t done anything wrong. So, anyway I walked out and he took me into this other room and standing there was this cop, very young police officer, very young. And another police officer, but didn’t really look like a police officer. I mean, obviously he was something, but he wasn’t a cop. And they said this gentleman have to talk to you. And the only thing I could think of, immediately went through my head, was something happened to my grandmother because my grandmother had been staying with us because she had an appointment at the doctor’s that day. So, she’s spent the night with me in town. And then I thought oh my gosh, you know, Sean’s with her because Sean’s taken her and they’ve been in a wreck. I mean, that’s the only reason why they’d show up is something’s happened to my husband and my grandmother and they’re in the hospital and I’ve got to go and then I thought -- it’s funny how many thoughts can go through your head in a second
SN: Yea.
JN: It really is. And then I thought no, it’s, it’s, they wouldn’t just call me for my grandmother and Sean, they wouldn’t come here for that, they’d call me. I’d get a phone call for that. And then I thought it’s, it’s the kids. It’s India, it’s my daughter. And I don’t know why I didn’t think Michael, it never crossed my mind that it was Michael. But I knew, I knew, I knew in that instant that it was my daughter and I asked if it was India and they said yes and I thought maybe, I thought it was a fire. And this whole time I was still thinking that it wasn’t, you know, I knew it wasn’t my son, I knew somehow that Michael was OK, but you know, somehow I thought the baby sleeping in a back room. Again, the things that can go through your mind. And they said that it was, they said it was SIDS, they said it looked like it was probably SIDS. And I just remember just, just I really don’t know what I remember. I remember, I think I made it to the chair, but I’m pretty sure I didn’t. I thought I did at the time, but I don’t think I made it to the chair. I remember being on the floor actually and my mom says that she remembers somebody screaming, but I don’t remember screaming. So anyway, she remembers being in the conference room of course at the luncheon and asking somebody what that sound was and somebody said oh, somebody’s laughing and she said no, I don’t think somebody’s laughing. And the next thing I do remember is you need to go get my mother, you need to go get my mother because of course my mom worked with me. And then the next thing I distinctly remember is them carrying my mother out of the office and then that woke me up because I had to take care of my mother. I had to snap out of it, I had things to do. I had to go make sure Michael was OK, I had to make sure Mom got out of the office without any further chaos.
So, I do remember something kind of funny though, I guess it’s not funny, but I think it’s funny. The police officer who was so young, he asked me if I was OK to drive and I said no, not really. And I said, he told me he’d drive my car to the location, to the babysitter’s house because we had to go there to make sure that it was India. And I said but I’ve got an expired tag on my car and I didn’t want to get in trouble for my expired tag and he goes that’s really not any concern today. I was like oh, OK, good because I really can’t handle that on top of this. So, we walk out to the car and you know, and on the way there he asks us, he goes ma’am, and I said what and he said, “No you mind if I smoke in your car?” And I said no, I really don’t care, you know, and I remember that he was so young, you know. And I remember thinking if he had children, you know, because he was very, very young and this was probably -- the way he was taking this was probably the first time he’d ever had to deliver news like this. And I found out a short time later, once we got to where we were going, once we got to the sitters’ house that the person with him was the police chaplain and thankfully they didn’t make me go in and ID the body or anything. They waited until she very tenderly had been wrapped in blankets and swaddled like an infant and brought her out to the morgue car and my mom went over there and looked at her face and said yea, that’s her, but I didn’t have to. In fact, the chaplain who was very, very kind in fact took me on a walk while they were doing all that so I didn’t even realize that’s what they were going, took me on a walk of the neighborhood which to this day is, was, I’m still very thankful for that I didn’t have to deal with that.
SN: So, but you had to make the funeral arrangements.
JN: it was a family effort. I mean, I know I was there and I know that I had final decision, final say-so on things, but I wasn’t really there.
SN: OK, so the family was functioning at that point.
JN: Yea, I remember sitting all around a (inaudible) and saying yea, that’s fine, that’ll work --
[20:00]
-- but I don’t really remember --
SN: What do you remember about that immediate period?
JN: I remember thinking that it was amazing how you could wake up every morning when it felt like you actually couldn’t breathe, how you could wake up every morning and it physically hurt your heart to beat. I just, I didn’t understand how that was possible. I didn’t understand, you know, how, you know, that I mean, you had things to do, you had people to take care of. I guess your mind just, a different part of your mind just takes over for a while, but that, I don’t know if that makes sense, but that it just kind of put you outside of yourself for a good long time.
SN: You mentioned that the police officer said SIDS right away. Was there ever any question about the cause of death?
JN: No, and for that I am so extremely lucky because having read some books and gone to some meetings I have since found out that parents whose children die of SIDS often become almost suspects in their children’s deaths. I mean, their houses become overabundant with police and bottles and bed sheets and I mean everything in their home has become suspect, medicines in the medicine cabinet, they’re questioned, their separated, their children are taken to different rooms and questioned. I mean, it’s really awful. And I mean, the one saving grace I can honestly say in all of this for me, for my sanity, is the fact that -- and I feel so bad for Mary, the woman who’s home that this happened in -- is that, and I know that this sounds so selfish, but that did not happen in my home, that I was not the one to find her. And as you know, that has haunted me with our kids, you know, for a long time. But no, there, you know there were no other causes of death. In fact, her body was released that day which is extremely rare in SIDS cases. They’re usually held for, you know, days and days and days.
SN: Couple years ago our next-door neighbor lost an infant, how did that day feel for you?
JN: It was horrible, it was absolutely horrible. It was just like bring it all back, and that baby died of SIDS and it was terrible. And you know, unfortunately, I didn’t know her very well and so there was really not much I could do and I didn’t want to be a hanger on at a child that I barely knew’s funeral because I knew what that was like. My daughter had 300 people show up at her funeral. I mean, it was ridiculous. The pews overflowed. I don’t even know that many people. Everybody from work showed up, my husband’s work showed up and I personally felt violated. I mean, so I went over there to hug her, to comfort her. We fixed a meal for her, I told her if she ever needed to talk through it that certainly she could. But it was horrible, it brought back all sorts of horrible things.
SN: I dropped that meal off and the father’s face haunts me still.
JN: Yea.
SN: And that was just one brief exposure to it. So, how did Michael handle the funeral? Was he, did he have any idea yet what was going on?
JN: I honestly cannot remember if Michael was at the funeral or not. I don’t think he was. I think, I think a relative, a cousin or somebody, kept him from the funeral and then brought him to the reception or the get together --
SN: Gathering.
JN: Yea, after the funeral. I don’t know. Honestly I was so out of it, I spent the time after the funeral with my best friend from high school. I don’t even know where my husband was for that whole thing, I don’t know where he was, I don’t know where my -- I have no idea where anybody else was. I was in a quarter table with my best friend since I was 13 years old.
SN: Matt?
JN: Yea, my friend Matt who for a 24-year-old guy, you know, to just drop everything the second he hears that his best friend lost a baby I think is one of the most incredible things I’ve ever heard of. I don’t know many 24-year-old guys who have zero experience with babies let alone, you know, marriage and anything like that to just be by my side like super glue, like that. I will love him forever for that.
SN: What do you remember about the months that followed them?
JN: Very little. That was in October. I don’t remember Thanksgiving, I don’t really remember Christmas. I remember Halloween vaguely because my father made an appearance at her funeral, even though I had asked him not to he showed up. And so I thought we should go to his house for Halloween. Why, I don’t know, but whatever. Anyway, we showed up there and I remember Michael got an asthma attack so we spent, that was lovely. My daughter dies on the 23rd, the 31st we’re in the hospital in Arkansas with an asthma attack with my two-year-old. That was great, let me tell ya. And so, anyway, yea, after that I don’t really remember much. I pretty much chose to ignore Thanksgiving although I know that my son celebrated it with his father and his father’s family. Christmas I know we celebrated, but I don’t really remember what we did. Yea, I don’t know. I do know that, I do know that during that time this lady from DHS showed up and I answered the door very guardedly, like I still do, you know? And I was like, yes? And she said hi, I’m Jane from social services, I was just checking in to see how I’m doing. And I said I’m fine, why wouldn’t I be? And she looked at me like I was truly insane and she said because your daughter just died a couple months ago and we’re doing a follow-up check on you. And I’m like oh, well, come in, you know. I guess I’m all right. I haven’t done the dishes I don’t remember when, I haven’t cleaned, but I’m OK, you know. So, she left pretty quickly after that. Since nobody was taken away I guess I was deemed sane enough, I don’t know.
SN: So, I’ve seen the pictures, I said earlier, Michael with India. I’ve seen pictures right after. And he’s a different kid.
JN: Yea. Yea.
SN: What did he go through that day?
JN: Mary, I think trying to save us even more grief, said that Michael didn’t see anything, but he did. My mom when she finally after all the trauma was over, so to speak, she went in to get Michael into the house when they would let her. And he was asleep in the corner, very furthest corner in the living room in the fetal position, you know. So, she grabbed him up and put him the car and brought him home. And for six months afterwards he was doing chest compressions on baby dolls. So, obviously he saw things.
SN: Did he say anything about it?
JN: No, no. He does now, all the time now, but I think that’s to, you know, get out of doing homework and you know, things like that quite frankly.
SN: Let’s go back to the beginning. Where and when were you born?
JN: Down the street at St. John’s, Tulsa, Oklahoma.
SN: What are your earliest memories?
JN: Really?
SN: Yea.
JN: Aw jeez Steve. My earliest memories are not good ones.
SN: Go on.
JN: They’re traumatic, abusive memories of my mom being beaten by my stepfather. What does this have to do with India?
SN: It has to do with --
[30:00]
-- the arch of your life story and how she fits into that. Do you mind?
JN: Yes!
SN: When you were a child and you thought about growing up how did you imagine your life?
JN: I told my mom once that I wanted to have five boys and she thought I was crazy. And I’ve come very close, I have three. And now I think I’m crazy.
SN: You had some trauma in your childhood, but I know that there were some happy times too. I’m thinking of your mother’s graduate school friends and you’ve talked about some of those days. Can you tell some of those stories? What are your happiest memories?
JN: My happiest memories are books. I love my books and my movies and listening to her friends talk about the places they’d been and where they grew up. She had some friends from France and some friends from Sicily and she had some friends from India and obviously when she was in graduate school. And it was just amazing to listen to all the places they’d been and hope and dream and plan that one day I was going to get to go there too.
SN: Tell me about your grandmother.
JN: My grandmother was great. I’m named after her. Her middle name’s Colleen, and it’s not Cahleen, we’re in Oklahoma not that far from Arkansas. So, it’s Colleen. And she was great. She was a bingo-playing, slot machine-playing, cursing, you know, of course you know when I would curse or say something bad about someone she’d say, “Jennifer Colleen, you ought not say something bad,” you know.
SN: Right.
JN: But I loved her very much.
SN: Papa seems to be one of the small number of number of positive male figures in your young life. How did he come into the picture and what are your happiest memories of him?
JN: He was a very hardworking man and he was about twenty years older than my Granny and he died when I was six, but my fondest memories of him was back in the days when I was a little girl, you know, they had those big behemoth cars sand you didn’t really have to have --
SN: Land yachts.
JN: Yea, and you didn’t really have to have seatbelts on, you could just ride in the backseat and just kind of bump along from side to side.
SN: That goes along with people just make more kids thing.
JN: Right, and anyway he would, you know, he’d say, you know Grandma, he’d tell Grandma to drive carefully, you know, we were carrying a special package and all that kind of stuff. He was a good man and he worked very hard and he took very good care of us and he reminds me a lot of you, a lot of you.
SN: Thank you. I guess there were at least two other man I know of who were positive influences in your life, your teachers in high school? Say a few things about them, give them their props.
JN: Yea, yea. Mr. Barnes, Mr. Jean Barnes, and I tried to look him up and I don’t know where he is, but he gave me my love and appreciation for history and I owe him so much. And he taught at Central High School and I graduated in ’94 and he wrote me, when I was at OSU he wrote me a letter a week until I left school and I don’t know any other teacher that would do that. And of course I couldn’t read his handwriting so I had to decipher most of it, but he was the most compassionate man and I loved him very, very, very much. And his daughters were very lucky to have him for a daughter. And then my other teacher who you’ve met because he --
SN: Run into him.
JN: -- haunts the same places we kind of do as Mr. Fred Whiteman. And he was my kind, of my safe harbor. Any time I would get in trouble at school I’d run to him and he would write me a note.
SN: I assume that happened quite frequently.
JN: Yes. He’d write me a note to get me out of something usually, and he would, he’d help me out a lot. He’d calm me down. He knew things weren’t great at home. Where Mr. Barnes inspired me, Mr. Whiteman felt like I was cared for.
SN: Do you remember your first crush?
JN: Oh, wow. I think so, but -- yea, I do, yea.
SN: Are you going to tell me who it was?
JN: Probably my, actually my first real crush and my first real love or whatever were probably the same person, and you know who that is.
SN: Ah.
JN: I know that probably doesn’t make you happy.
SN: I’m not going to ask you much more about Bob. How did Sean come into your life?
JN: He was rebound from said --
SN: OK.
JN: -- aforementioned person.
SN: How old were you when you found out you were pregnant with Michael?
JN: Oh, don’t make me do math. Michael’s 12, I’m 33, I was 20.
SN: So, after India died your family broke apart. How did you get through that time? Were you consciously trying to put your life back together yet?
JN: No. I just bounced around, I bounced around. And that’s how I know that no matter what the history books say that adding more children to your family doesn’t make it OK.
SN: Doesn’t fill the hole.
JN: No.
SN: So the next significant event, speaking of that, is the arrival of Jillian. Anything in between that you want to talk about?
JN: Not really. I really honestly just bounced and bounced and bounced from --
SN: So how long between India’s death and Jillian’s birth?
JN: Jillian was born in 2001 -- I said Jillian, right?
SN: Yes.
JN: Jillian was born in 2001 and India died in ’98, so three years.
SN: And it was -- right, OK. So, what about that pregnancy and her birth?
JN: That was difficult because I wasn’t in a great relationship.
SN: Right. When she was born, how did you feel?
JN: I felt good. I felt good, but at the same time scared to death.
SN: I’ve seen that with the other two. The first few months are pretty rough for you, aren’t they?
JN: Yea. They’re terrifying.
SN: Constantly.
JN: Constantly.
SN: Not just when they’re asleep.
JN: Not when they’re asleep, constantly.
SN: When we met Jillian had just turned two. Tell me about her first two years.
JN: They were good. She’s a happy kid, I mean, she’s happy, happy, happy. But her happiness is, her happiness makes me nervous. I’m afraid that there’s always something lurking behind --
SN: I was going to ask when did she stop worrying about you when she was asleep, but --
JN: You don’t ever stop. That’s why you still wake up the boys in the morning.
SN: Yea. We met through a mutual friend. I knew Laura through work and I’d been telling her that as a married friend of a single guy she was falling down on her matchmaking duties. She eventually suggested that she might know somebody that she should introduce me to. So, what’s that story from your side?
JN: I thought you were great. I thought you were handsome and funny and your clothing style was hideous. You seriously needed some help. So, I was willing to take on that challenge and you loved me and you loved my children and when I told you I was a mess you weren’t afraid.
SN: I figured anybody who’d been through what you had and was still going was probably worth keeping.
JN: Well, we’ll see. We’re not finished yet.
Male: Can I ask a really quick question?
SN: Yes.
JN: Yes.
Male: We’re down to about 30 seconds. Jennifer, when you close your eyes and you think about India what do you see?
JN: I see pink. Oh, I’m sorry. I see pink clouds. And I’m not quite sure why, but --
SN: What would you want to say to her right now?
[40:00]
JN: I’ll see ya soon.
Male: Would you guys like to thank each other?
JN: Thank you.
SN: Thank you.
JN: I love you.
SN: I love you too. And you are --
[40:15]