Patricio Baca and Lilly Sullivan

Recorded May 23, 2010 Archived May 23, 2010 39:34 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: MBY006539


Patricio E Baca (66) talks with facilitator Lilly Sullivan (26) about his family’s genealogy and the “Baca” name in his family.

Subject Log / Time Code

Pat talks about being influenced by his cousin Elvin Court who helped him begin researching his family’s genealogy. His family has been in New Mexico for 16 generations.
Pat talks about his father Fernando Baca who was a farm worker in Colorado.
Pat talks about his family working in a labor camp in Colorado. He talks about the Japanese-American family that owned the farm.
Pat talks about his mother Martha Mercedes Gutierrez Baca. She suffered a stroke when he was 14 and was paralyzed.
Pat talks about the Hispanic/Anglo segregation he experienced in Rocky Ford, CO. He tells stories about his school experiences with Anglos.
Pat talks about how his research about his family history, and the Baca name, has given him a better idea about who he is.


  • Patricio Baca
  • Lilly Sullivan

Recording Location

MobileBooth West


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00:04 My name is Liliana Sullivan. I'm 26 years old today is May 23rd 2010. We're here in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and I'm here with Pat Becca who I just met.

00:17 Hi, my name is Pat. Baucom. That was at my full name is Patricio and Drake it Baka and I'm 66 years old. Today is May 23rd 2010. I'm here in Albuquerque, New Mexico to speaking with Liliana.

00:32 Will Patton really excited that you found time today to come down and we just spent the past couple minutes. I know we just met but we spent a couple minutes looking over these amazing family trees and documents and beautiful photos and histories and it kind of seems like you've become somewhat of a family historian over the past years. Is that is that right? It's exactly correct. I became interested in this through a cousin of mine in Las Vegas, New Mexico Alvin Court about 10 years ago, and we he had written a lot of family story tonight. I took up from from him and started out to write stories as a child at always like to listen to my father and I thought it was always asking them about what the family history was and subsequently it led me to hear where I'm sitting today at the national Hispanic Cultural Center where we were able to study our family history and actually Trace our family line back here and do my

01:32 Dakota 1600. Yeah, that's that's incredible. It's almost kind of inconceivable to think about tracing your family line back to 1600. So can you tell me a little bit about that kind of a funny story because one of my nephews wrote to me and asked me if the he was doing a project on their grandfathers and they had two generations. And after we were done we had actually discovered 16 generations of our family. Our family records went back to 1802 and then through here we've traced it back to 1600 and confirmed what had been written by Donald Lucero in his book the Adobe Kingdom, which had the Baca family history back to the ER for the first 1600 crystal ball, Baca.

02:23 With what we've enjoyed doing this I like it. Like you said, I thought it would be more difficult than it actually was what we did this in the day. We came down here early in the morning and before 3 or 4 in the afternoon. We had all the records within past stack of documents at the center here. Let us copy from the books. They had every every time one of our ancestors appeared in one of these baptismal books marriage boats are death certificates with were able to copy and I've got a big stack of these shows a lot of unique things in the family background. I wrote a story it was published for the Elida NCI magazine out of Santa Fe. I was asked her if she's a document if we had any child Brides in our family and I knew we had in and I documented my great-great-grandmother.

03:18 What that was married at 9:15 and in doing so we did that here at the center. I discovered in the Anton Chico New Mexico record books then from the. 1851 to 1854. They were 13 marriages among vodkas with the last name Baca. One of them even was Tubac of families where one brother married to the sister from the other family excetera and the the oldest bride during that period was 15 years old. The youngest was 12 the groom's to the husbands were from 1918 about 35 or 40. Now. What was it about that subject that what were you writing about when you're writing about the magazine several about a dozen family histories that had the child brides and one of them with that was published had a the account of there and their grandmother had told the living descendant.

04:18 That she had been out playing with her dolls at age 11 here in New Mexico and had taken been taken in the house cleaned up dressed up and married that day. It was that extreme in the about 250 years ago. Was there any story from your family that like really jumped out at you will write my great-great-grandmother was her name was she was born in Ramona Lucero and they called her I'm going to see that she was from Anton Chico New Mexico, and she she married my great-great-grandfather and at 15. She live to be a hundred and five and instill in that same Village and she she died I was told because she was walking from one part of the village up to another part and fell in a in a hole and expired overnight didn't know where she was at you and told me that she was going there they found her the next morning, but she was 105 years old.

05:17 It's amazing how the family history goes back to this event in this town a bunch of Chico to small village here in New Mexico for about six hundred population. Go to my parents. We took him back there buried in the cup of sand. Are there any idea what kind of several hundred years old that's only about two hundred years old, but it looks very old the church. I have a book that says it has a picture of that church in the said that to Pat Garrett was married there in 1881 Billy the Kid was there an attendance. I wrote a story about that. It's based on facts and fiction concerning that that episode at my mom's funeral. How worried I asked the priest how many people lived in ontom Chica and he said about 600 I asked him. How how what was the most people that ever lived there at one time?

06:17 They said about 600 I asked you what was the least and they said about 600 so it's been sitting there about six hundred for a quite a while. That's kind of the appropriate. It's an interesting Community because it was part of a line has one of the largest land grants in New Mexico in the early eighteen-hundreds and I can get on 1830s part of that. It was taken over after the Mexican-American War and some Anglo settlers from Back East came in and somehow they got the control of it and it took about 40-50 years for the community to get any part of it back with say did in the in the 1906 and my great-grandfather was a signatory on the re-establishment of the land grant Fernando Baca.

07:17 Family in the cemetery nonsense you go there for Fernando Bacchus buried there including my father and said there's some cousins and and then this is my great grandfather and my father he was he was quite an interesting figure of our entire family. He's the one I know the the most about as far as an ancestor. He had been in the 1880s to New Mexico State Legislature as a representative from the Anton Chico area and there's not a lot that I've been able to find out as far as what he did or accomplished within within the legislature, but he did that. He was also a a Teamster taking the Wagon Train still Fort Dodge. What did not Dodge City Kansas and then bringing supplies back to untense you doing selling his business and one of the one of the things that he brought back in the late 1800 Chrissy sorghum Mill high sugar producing big iron piece of machinery.

08:17 That that was it was used mechanically by by tying horses or a donkey to it to a large pole and then the donkey walks in a circle and they feed sugar cane in the one in and out pops you on the other end this this sugar this liquid sugar that they boil down and they make those brown sugar from and there was a big day in the village for the children because they it would appreciate a phone spuma and then they would all line up all day long and they have a cup and they would take off this at the phone off the top and the kids would drink the sweet drink and that that piece of Machinery is it probably weighs of seven eight hundred pounds. It's in my cousin's backyard to this day and then some Chico because I was at the people from all over would come to this Village and it wasn't part of my grandfather great grandfather's business to two processes sugar and however, they exchanged that he got a part of the

09:17 I usually did in those days. This is still work on the ground and just a big hunk of iron and I've seen them on the Internet that is exactly the same type of machines and if it needs to be picked up and the pole in the horse and all that day, they do this at the last golondrinas up here in south of Santa Fe of the Spanish village there which is where was my great-great-grandmother was from that Village also and then they still do that to this day that on the weekends to show people how they used to make sugar in the old days from sugarcane. That's amazing. I feel like I can really kind of see scooping up the sugar foam, you know, so I wanted to know I wanted to maybe slow down a little just because I know that when I think about my family history there certain stories, which kind of just stay with me and almost take on Carnival Legend quality. Are there any stories that you've learned about your family?

10:17 I really like wrong tree with you, but you might just want to pass on so you probably the most significant thing that happened it in our family history is in 1924. My father's family was moved migrated from New Mexico up to Colorado. It was the beginning of a riding in the midst of the sugar beet industry in Colorado. And they were looking they needed labor. To harvest the beats and the defendant weed the fields in the summer and platinum etcetera. So your father's family. You mean Walk of Fame when he was a child for about twenty-four he was 14 years old and they didn't think the whole family moved moved to Rocky Ford. They were placed in a labor camp. How did they get there a train from from Las Vegas New Mexico right to La Junta Colorado and then they were taken by out of the truck evidently out to Rocky Ford and into the labor camp the the train and a few years ago by 10.

11:17 Where to go where I was with my dad's brother and its sole surviving member of the family, he we were traveling to Colorado. We stopped in Trinidad Colorado and we were in the train station, which is now a restaurant and having a meal and he was looking around and he smiled and he noticed the tile work on the wall and he says I've been here before we stopped here in 1924 when we came from New Mexico to talk. That's what you remembered this that I remember that tile did he ever tell you what the labor camps what it was they had a Spanish word for Concha is what they all called in the headline enganche and as near as I can translate it if it was like a an indentured servitude type of program where they provided the transportation up there. They provided the housing they had a

12:17 Company store and it was a servitude that once you got indebted to that company store in the program for the housing and paying back here your transportation cost etcetera. You were pretty much hooked to be feel labor for out there until they were no longer had any use for you that that's what happened to our family that after the first year with with about a dozen kids in the family. Everybody working. The family was $300 in debt to The Company Store and at that time after that first year that they were many Japanese American farmers in that Valley one of them came to my grandfather told him

12:54 The ask him how much he owed the store and he told him he he pay them the $300. Loan it to me give you this money. I'll pay you for your to pay off the store. He gave him another couple hundred dollars in them to go downtown to the supermarket and buy all your groceries there and he moved the family from one. They call it La Colonia when labor camp out to his his farm and he had houses built there and they moved him into a house there and if it hadn't been for that, we may have still been in that little onion still to this day. She was why did he do that? He knew that my family had a lot of good workers a large family and respectable at 10 or so. He picked them evidently. He was watching which ones he wanted. He picked them done to move and then my father he work for him to through the depression through the thirties. He was an earwig.

13:54 Man out there with a shovel are running the water in the field in my father sometime. Also during the Depression and bought his own truck small truck produce Trucking with Holland produce back and forth in Southeastern, Colorado to make a living child in two bales of hay bales and he wouldn't he would transport that to the different feedyards bales of straw that they use for the horses and in the Corrals and then whatever other produce and their cucumbers and tomatoes a lot of melons in that in that Valley Rocky Ford melon, cantaloupe and watermelon, primarily, the our family was involved in agriculture for the onions and end in Alfalfa harvested in the bales of hay that's how we grew up stackinghay all summer and then in the fall and unloading trucks with onions bags of onions,

14:54 Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh so you were there really tell me about that? What are your number from you since we were in the springtime window with hose holy weeding weaning the fields and thinning out the the the number of plants spacing the plants are they drove her appropriately know the onions onions and then the Alfalfa when the alfalfa seed and start a Tuesday to not the day that school ended they would be the first cutting of hay we go out there and my dad's truck and wait on my older brother Mandel. Nallo brother Ernie my dad and I sometimes my brother Julian and my brother Philip and we would we would stack pick up the bales of hay put it on the truck take him to the by the Corrals and instead make that Haystack there. We did this all summer from 4 in the morning to 4 in the afternoon. We we do 12 loads of hay a day and then set of full day going.

15:54 Saturday and a half a day on Sunday. We do work 8 hours on Saturday to eight loads on Sunday and it would lead right into the onion harvest in August that I answered. It would start to be harvesting weed move from hey over to onions and we load trucks with onions all all during The Fall season up until around Thanksgiving and then they would store some and she said we would they would grade them later. We'd load trucks a ride into the holidays. So it was almost about 8 or 8 months of the Season then in January, we would go to a shed for they fix crates wooden crates folding crate that would dog and they got a lot of broken ones that we sit there for a couple of months just fixing crates thousands of dead wire a new tools and then remove them to rewire new ones in their fix the bottoms nail the slats for the bottoms and then we would do that for a couple of months.

16:54 Family my dad and my brother fill up my brother Ernie my brother Manuel a during high school was in the cemetery in Pueblo Colorado to the setting for the priesthood, but he missed out on all the winner the winners of the he was there for the summer for all the the work we had to do in the summer. We all started five or six years old when the soon as we could walk in the first chore that you had was being the water boy carrying a canvas water bag to the workers that were out on their knees up and down these rows of onions or sugar bee plants and that you'd have to they call for water. Hey waterboy and and run up there and then give her a drink of water and then you sit down fall asleep until you heard them call you for gas, and I need to run again to take you somebody else to drink of water. That's how you start it.

17:51 It it was well, if it's something that is now our history and that you can you can really laugh at it at the time. It was a grueling grilling. They they call it abuse if I guess the childhood raising today, but in those days that that our generation and my father has that everybody had to participate everybody had to contribute and we all and Happy know we paid our way my father and we were in high school and Hauling onions. And and in the hay all the all the year-long we would be paid about an average around $5 a week and he was paying out that we had hired a dollar-an-hour and they were making $100 a week. So we were working a hundred hours a week.

18:40 Every week you'll just hear every way did he pay out the crew in it? They get a hundred we get five and that and then he would say this so, you know, this is for your laundry. And then this is for the all the food and your bed. So he had all the kind of person and what's left. Is it 5:00. So everything went to the family and to support the family and then whatever little is left that we would get.

19:04 Let it was up. Most of us left left there in and not looking back early myself and I my brother Julian and and my oldest brother Fernando join the Marines my brother Ernie and Philip join the Army and it was a means of Escape, It wasn't it wasn't seeking a career or being a military people don't like that. It was over there was a way to get out of town. They said he would have happened to us. What is your folks think when you left it was time to leave. It was no there was never any

19:41 Being the shedding of tears of remorse for anything that you grew up here and didn't know what the hell you could and then when I was your time to leave you left yet, you asked about experiences and in our life and they were important my mother suffered a major stroke in 1958 at age. 48 44 Gutierrez Lazaro was her maiden name. She she had a stroke at that that this young age and her right side was paralyzed and she was never able to to speak again. She she could utter a few words Etc. She she outlived my father by 19 years. My father died in 1978 at age 68 my mom live for almost 40 years 39 years and 6 months after having the stroke and being paralyzed and she she died in a nursing home.

20:41 California in 1997. How old were you then when you had when sheet when your mother had a stroke is 14 in my younger sister? Cynthia was about twelve Kathy was around 6 or 7 and I had a youngest brother Jose that was two years old when she when she had that stroke. So they I left home shortly after about four years later. I was gone, but the three younger siblings have paid dearly for that with mom having that stroke. It was quite a tough childhood the rest of their childhood growing up my little brother completely absorb in that in that life with the mother that couldn't speak and everybody was we learn to deal with it, but she still continued to work in the home. She couldn't work at with us in the fields right hand, but she continued to do laundry in the pants.

21:41 House and cooking dragging her her leg around from room to room and I'm doing nothing making beds whatever and she continue to contribute. She she was a very very strong woman very very influential in her nature to the field all the all of us children as much so as my father they were both of that of that streak of an independence in a and a strong-willed nature that does just be a hard to see today.

22:11 The other things that happened to us with my dad's generation in Colorado, once they got there to Colorado in the twenties. A lot of them. There was a lot of tuberculosis going around and a lot of them two or three of them died. There are 13 or 14 13 children and his family siblings and and two or three of them died of tuberculosis early in life in their teens and twenties and three or four brothers took off and just to get out of there till to not die and the rest of the family in the late there about 1936-37. They can't they move to California for the same purpose do to avoid this tuberculosis primary that was going around so they it was a big change in our in and in our family and I'm sure it was other families had the same situation. What was what was your father's family situation like at that time on the farm to work in the fields.

23:11 The Japanese family I mentioned your family at my dad's family and in the beginning of my siblings and then in the thirties, my oldest brother was born in 1933. So during the thirties night, my father was already starting his family and it's and it's at the same time. Most of his siblings were leaving town getting out as fast as I could before they died from these are not tuberculosis. It was another

23:44 And so and so your family you all went out to California. We survive. Nobody died of TB. My dad had ended up it later in life in the sixties shortly before he died of cancer. He was in the TV warning California for several months, but that was the only time that any of his contracted TB that although back then in the thirties over there were several that died from it. So that was a major thing that happened to people from New Mexico. I think that went out there wasn't just us I think several others had the same thing that happened to them and they lost family members do it cuz it was going around evidently pretty pretty strong and then we we

24:41 We always had a strong family culture as far as as far as are who we were is a box of family. It was a name. That was for whatever reason was beyond what I ever I knew that but as I grew up it was a well-respected name in there and in town, my father was referred to as done that are not so I don't know if you're familiar with the dawn title. It comes from the Spanish though. They had no play d o n and refer to a back in Spain is usually people from the royal family that were heard of a noble Origins and then here in America was the land. Big landowners here in New Mexico that had that title and then has two generations have passed. What happened is that title begin begin being used in in the local Village of small villages towards those Elders that had earned it through hard work through fair-mindedness to

25:41 Sinus whatever respect and only certain people in the village would get that they were more than one that had it but they were it was always somebody that was honest and there was respected then they would refer to me as Don Fernando are done doing whatever I remember as a child my friends coming to my house likes a 670 Braden and referring to my dad is Don Fernando and then I didn't tell him to say that and and and my mom Dona Dona Martha, so it was just something that that I knew what that meant that they gave us a lot of self-esteem a lot of the good feeling about who we were even though in in that the community and that's the culture of Rocky Ford, Colorado.

26:25 There was a definite distinction between Hispanic people and Angela people they were around when I was five or six years old in in in Rocky Ford. The theater Hispanics had to sit in the balcony on one particular side. You couldn't sit down on the ground floor or on the other side of the balcony. We are restricted to that. There was a roller skating rink in the neighboring Town Lahaina Colorado that had done Hispanic night or Mexican night on on only one night like Monday night. You could only skate there. They wanted your money. They wanted you to sit there bit your business, but you had to go there when they tell you to go that you couldn't go there anytime you want it yes or like half & half or population-wise by the time I grew up there was probably happen about half and half there were a lot of Hispanic kids, but there were a lot of the farm.

27:25 We're mostly Angela Farmers the businessman in town. They were all angles. And then the Japanese the culture there was a lot of Japanese Farmers. We had a lot of they were German immigrants farmers are there were the Russian people that were there. But how they got there. I don't know but they were part of the community. He was a pretty Diversified Community but it was divided right down the middle is because it's your ass panacur and then we weren't polish manicure just call Mexicans. There was a distinct line there that if you know you were you were over here and you stayed over here and there was also religion wise the most of the Spanish word Catholics and not most of the angles were were promised in the one Faith or the other one denomination or the other so there wasn't a Great Divide and growing up there a great and prejudicial divide and then make a classy enough of us and Them. Did you live in separate areas of town? We live on the farm.

28:25 My folks bought a farm on after World War II my dad went to the World War II at age 33 with seven children at home. He was drafted in the Army in in the January 1944 right after I was born in November and that he served in Europe under General Patton George Patton and the third Army General Patton's 3rd Army the 95th Infantry Division. He has a chance to have a certificate a home that was signed by George Patton sent to to Fernando vodka that you were there during the Battle of the Bulge. Anyhow, with other they bought the farm with with his last train out pain when I got out of the army at five acre farm and we lived out there and it was we were the only Hispanic family and within a half a mile or so and then they purchased another Farm later on but most of the Hispanic people are or that have come from New Mexico. The majority of them still ended up in one labor camper the other

29:23 It is still in debt to those company stores. Is it really a really terrible situation for them kids that I grew up with and whose families came there the same time as mine yet. He had never been able to escape the indentured service and because of that DeVille they out at the store.

29:42 The

29:46 Hepatitis ask one more question about that. So I'm wondering about if growing up as kids. Did you play with all kinds of people or when work with all kinds if it's a it's a good question. Because as you're asking me that I just prior to this I was thinking we had during recess in grade school. We we go out and choose sides like kids do the first soccer football whatever and it would be Spanish against the white because a lot of the Hispanic kids were were a couple years older it you got had been passed over something so they were a little more aggressive than a little bigger at the end and gray school. So and angle kids didn't want to play that way. They wanted to mix it up then.

30:35 Kevin De Leon that we lot we soon lost is as we got in the high school and all these guys that have been passed over dropped out and then it was the rest of us having to complete a legal basis with everybody else Sports referred to as the great equalizer pretty much ended rated but also separate from anglos. They had a Japanese store in town that we still buy are firecrackers from the fireworks in the 4th of July. They they were just good good neighbors good good people and I don't know of any I can't speak of anyone that I had any bad feelings about ever they let they treated everybody fairly. They were they were they were solid people and they were intelligent. They they they scored high in school and and it was really a great experience having them in.

31:35 Also in and join up with them. Some of my best friends were there from the Japanese families, but very nice kids.

31:43 Anyhow. I wanted to also just say that I've been studying family history. I've written several stories that were published in lie at NCI magazine out of Santa say it's no longer in publication, but it can still be accessed on the internet.

32:01 As light and Shadow, that's l a h e r e n c i a gorgeous family photos and that aren't they look really amazing Magazine on a check. Oh, I did a great service to the people of the Spanish people of New Mexico get hit it hit it ran for about 15 years and their stories of every Community here in New Mexico in that in that magazine. It was a quarterly publication and the the always felt it was on her that I was honored that you publish my story. I didn't know that I that I had anything worthy of being published. She really enjoyed the writing that I did and it can be a like I said that they have a you can still purchase a CD of their all their issues for a very reasonable and the other thing I wanted to say.

33:01 Is that in stain our family history the Baca family in particular this book. I mentioned the Adobe Kingdom by Donna Lucero. The title of that book is the Adobe Kingdom history at the Baka and Lucero family histories from 1598 to 1958. So that lucero's first came here two years before the Bacchus and it's at it covers at home. Dr. Lucero is a professor and they listen Connecticut now and he's just reprinted Republic's that book. It's available if people want to go on the internet and then and then get a copy of it's a great look if you have any and I just walked in the Cheryl families, but it tells a lot of history another book another last thing. I wanted to mention two of a kind of an interesting thing that happened in the 1600 chair New Mexico. There was a governor rosis. That was a very corrupt around the 1848, excuse me, 1638 1640

34:01 And look what happened is it was a very beautiful girl in Santa Fe. That was a baka married to a mortise man. And what would happen is he took a liking to her and then when he would send her husband out on Expedition against the Indian and and then he called her to the palace and he had his way with her under threat of if she didn't cooperate with him if he would she he would keep sending her husband until the Indians killed him till he didn't survive one of these Expeditions so she went along with it and then it turned out that she can't became pregnant the family found out about it. They attacked the governor's Palace the Ortiz family the box of family several of about five or six families that were related and there were several people killed. I'm not sure how many on each side but the the the attackers had lost him about a dozen people in and then they were more than that. They killed the governor governor us was killed as a result of that 12 of the attackers were or captured and sentenced to

35:01 And of the 12 four of them escaped and 1/8 of them were beheaded and then after a certain amount of time before that had escaped to return to Santa Fe and after the dust settles and everybody knew they government from Mexico came up investigate and they found out that the governor was at fault. So they didn't they didn't charge it when they after that but hate hate were beheaded and the reason of say it tell that the story is in the one of the ones that escaped Alonzo. Baucom was the son of crystal ball Baka the first Baka that came here and 1600 he escaped and were descended from Alonzo Baka and the his brother Manuel was an unwed was not as lucky. He was one of the ones that was beheaded so bad for his escaping that I wouldn't be here today though. And the other thing about the Baca family name in New Mexico. It's one of the most

35:56 Prolific names probably in all of New Mexico. I don't know why it just seems that they're everywhere you go there you run into boxes and and that's why I mentioned this Adobe Kingdom. Look as you can trace back not only your line. But where are you at your your family line broke off and were the historical figures like MFA loebbaka that was the sheriff there and down in reserve New Mexico the late eighteen hundreds and in his in his exploits and then the colorful history. He also descended from Crystal Ball block and he's also a distant cousin. The the other thing lasted would be that the first of a lot of people think they're descended from Cabeza de Vaca en Vara Nunez Cabeza de Vaca. That was the first European to come into this area in 1528, and he was he was never married. He never had any male offspring so he's not we're not descended from him.

36:56 We are a disease is probably a distant Uncle of some kind but he was the first European our family name was the first ones that come through here came through here back in 1528. That's another complete story with a very colorful of the 8-year lost track cuz they went from Indian tribe the Indian tribe and the hit his head handed up the back in Mexico with Spanish Sailors there. He was sent to South America. He was in Uruguay and he wrote a book about being up here book about Uruguayan and then he retired as a justice of some kind in Spain at the end of his life before he died.

37:43 It's strange because I'm one on one hand. There. Are there a lot of dates and names but on the other hand, it's really a lot. It's the stuff of Legends, you know, so I am curious. What what do you love about studying your family history? And what do you hope it's someone in the future may be your descendants. Listen to this recording. What do you want to share with them about about this part of family history and in keeping in touch with who is with who you are or where you come from is it gives you a greater feeling of who you are today A lot of times it were subjected and in our culture to the Discrimination or or left out Prejudice or whatever and we think that where we begin to buy into the fact that we're maybe we're not equal does some other group and when you study your history and you see what what colorful and great history actually come from the people that the hard work in the this this work at

38:43 Did they had although they speak a lot of products and we're getting there's a there's this great of an ethic in in our culture has any that work ethic is any live over its branch? And I think that is the most important things in the kids and not forget where they came from and and be able to to go back and find find out for themselves.

39:07 Do the research yourself go back find these records. That's why I continually mention little variety or ice or stuff and where they can do it. And now it's the Internet. It's just amazing that the things that they can find out and how fast and how easy is not hard and I think this is a this is a great start that you're giving people to kind of start hearing about the other is for family. I just I really want to thank you for talking to a really thank you for giving me the opportunity.