Joel Lusk, Maceo Martinet, and Cynthia Abeyta

Recorded June 16, 2010 Archived June 16, 2010 43:57 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: MBY006632


Joel D. Lusk and colleagues Cynthia Abeyta and Maceo Martinet talk about their work as biologists and the influences in their own lives that led them to the work they are engaged in. Cynthia and Maceo talk about being Latinos in the sciences.

Subject Log / Time Code

Cynthia is a native New Mexican and a hydrologist with the federal government. She is one of very few Hispanic females in her position. Maceo points out that Cynthia has many disciples and counts himself among them.
Maceo talks about growing up in an urban environment in San Francisco where his refuges were bookstores and parks.
Cynthia got into the sciences in college because of a professor, Dr. Lorna Shields who encouraged her not just to become a scientist but to enter the then brand-new field of environmental science.
Joel grew up as the child of hippies. His father drove the family out west in a converted greyhound bus and they settled in Albuquerque where his father became a county planner. Joel learned about planning from his father and about moral values from his mother.
Maceo talks about the people and experiences that have influenced him as an ecologist from his grandfather to his family’s long history of work in agriculture. He talks about his framework for considering the world not in terms of “resources” but in terms of relationships where the earth is “mother” or “father” and the environment is “me”--even though these may not be scientific terms. He mentions the idea prevalent in indigenous America of corn being a “parent” to humanity as one of the first cultivated crops.
Cynthia talks about her family background and ethics and the yearly gatherings of her extended family at their land and ranch in northern New Mexico.
Recruiting new scientists to take over the work. The hope that we can be employed and not be killing ourselves at the same time. The work of keeping systems intact so they will be salvageable for the future.


  • Joel Lusk
  • Maceo Martinet
  • Cynthia Abeyta

Recording Location

MobileBooth West


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00:06 Hello, my name is Cindy going to lay a beta. I'm 52 years old born in 1957. Today's date is June 16th, 2010 and we are having this conversation in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and I'm joined with my colleagues Joe Lusk biologist and masayo cardio martinet also biologist.

00:31 And my name is Maceo Carrillo Martinez. I am age 31 today's date is June 16th, 2010 and we are speaking from the beautiful place of Albuquerque, New Mexico, and I am also co-workers with the Joe and Cindy.

00:51 And I'm Joel David Lusk and I'm 47. I was born in 1963. Today is June 16th of the year 2010. We're at the national Hispanic Cultural Center in a cool little trailer at in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Actually, we're kind of near the South Valley and unincorporated portion. And I know Cindy em Sao through work is biologist and hydrologists and scientists. Cindy would like to ask you if you've been working with a fish and wildlife service for a number of years. I like asked you why do you care about fish and wildlife and our environment? Good question. I guess I care about him because I think that nature and evolution is taking so long to sort of adapt animals to their environment that they have special attributes like the way of fish fries or

01:51 Or are the way a bug relates to its environment that they've taken hundreds or millions of years to adapt to that that vile chemical change is never going to be reinvented in in our in our planet in our lives again in its unique and has value. So I think that value is so important for us to preserve because it it offers an insight into how the world works and how to how do animals relate to its. I want to save that. Another is I think we are good for whatever reason given stewardship over this world and we're supposed to take care of it. And so I want to take care of it so that I pass it on to the next Generation until I'm asking you this question. I should have asked you this one first. Can you tell us who you are then the number of years you've been in your profession of biology your education if you'd like and anything other any other thing that you might feel important?

02:51 No, I'm asking. I've been working for the fish and wildlife service for 16 years as an environmental contaminants biologist. So I study the effects of and help others manage the pollutants on fish and wildlife of federal concern like endangered species are migratory birds or anadromous salmon someone about 250 people who are assigned to do that in our agency. But other than that, I guess I have a history of caring for the environment as sort of a farmer is as it will as you will get into that later the history of our families and so assertive landed here, isn't it as a farmer and it's always related. Well tool and so and I've done that for real yo, most my life 30 40 years, but generally have focused in on the area Fisheries biology and ecology so Cindy

03:51 Let's go with who are you and what are some of your education and experiences?

04:03 Family is originally from the Las Vegas Nevada area of Northern New Mexico. I received my Bachelor's of Science and Earth Sciences from New Mexico Highlands University in 1979. And at that time I was able to get a student internship with the US Geological Survey and decided to become a hydrologist. So I started with the federal government in 1978 and have been what federal government for 32 years long time my I've been working as a hydrologist. It's been fascinating. Are there very few Hispanic females in this position. I valued all my experiences. It's been a rocky road sometimes but always very interesting.

05:03 10 of your position at Rocky Road that you referred to I have come across several barriers. Unfortunately, there are a small handful of folks that have issues with women in the scientific field and especially Hispanic women, but there are so many more that that if we have accepted me and then my profession and and unfortunately the few the created barriers.

05:36 It was real it was there but I've overcome it and I become a stronger person because of it.

05:44 I mean what?

05:48 How did you deal with that? I was not going to let anyone bring me down. I just worked harder and worked harder as you have to work 10 times harder, but you become 10 times tomorrow that's on you such a strong Advocate at times and so clear voiced about caring for our world and being pure about that that I kind of sort of Envy at the right. I kind of along the way you feel like there's a need for compromise is in modification, but I always look to you to have us or a strong reaction and spine about what's right that type of attitude is what keeps me going Jewel. That's why I have always totally valued working with you. You're one of the many people that have kept me strong.

06:41 Yeah, she stood up for the Rio Grande. There were four times at which I would make for you is essentially two people who are managing the Silvery minnow a small endangered species in the middle Rio Grande and you know, you have experts who will say there is problems with the water or problems not and I got entangled in that relationship with another employee and we didn't get anywhere with affecting the managers who are making a difference Cindy stepped in and said no this really matters and the and she really took it to another level and got it Incorporated in the first draft of the bo. I think you deserve the biological opinion. It was it was I got kind of halted or stopped it installed there and you picked it up and ran with it again, and it was incorporated as an idea fully and I don't know if it was through influencing.

07:37 Amy your joy or whoever but it was suddenly the issue was back on the table. And actually I think I remember it was influencing others in the organizational structure and outside to say that this is an important issue again. Let's bring it back in. So I do remember that and I was really neat and I'll all the add to the discussion of discussion about Cindy and vouch for Cindy because Cindy has disciples throughout the state. I don't know if you knew that I didn't know that but he's been like a mentor to me and that's actually how I got into fish and wildlife where we all work is I met Cindy we befriended I met her through a project that dealt with young students and signs tried to get the students involved in signs exposed to the world natural world and in ways, they haven't been before and it was a program that was funded through her program. So that's how

08:37 I'm at Cindy and then Cindy offered me a position with fish and wildlife as a student in training and that's where I've been ever since. So I'll I'll I'll definitely vouch, you know, I'll be the first in line with a judge says Cindy. What did you accomplish, you know for the environment and I'll say you know, I'm an example of that volunteered we initially so he came on board working with us and had the motivation and the drive to come on as a volunteer without pay and until we were able to find some money to be able to pay him. So very proud Mary proud of myself who went on and got his PhD the projects in a lot of hard work there and cover the who you are apart. So, yeah, so I I've been a psychologist or biologist with the fish and wildlife for a fish.

09:37 About a year and before that I was a student and they have student programs. So I was a student for about three four years as a student in training with the fish and wildlife and while I was a student in training I was a student at University of Mexico and I was able to do a project looking at the impacts of the wastewater treatment facility on the Rio Grande and its ability to filter out and deal with some contaminants namely the nitrogen related contaminants. So that's and I've always been interested in water and I decided to do a adopter it in freshwater Sciences because

10:24 Talking about the future. I mean that's that's you know water and how we relate to it. That's a huge issue that we need to deal with it. So that's kind of where I'm coming from.

10:36 To do like growing up or was there a turning point when you got into?

10:40 Well, I like I grew up action am from San Francisco, California born and raised in the city. Not in the bay in the actual Heart of the City actually the movie la mission right? I was born right there. So I'm looking forward to seeing a movie but in Irving Irving guy, but I've always felt for some reason a connection to the environment. There was a couple of parks actually I know where all the parks are in San Francisco. And actually that's why I went mainly there in a bookstore and those are the two places that I went to find Refuge from the urban jungle. If you will any other places that the ocean and Ice actually camp out the ocean sleep there spend way too long there watch the clouds roll in would walk the beaches and see all the trash where I lived in a mainly working-class folks a lot of cancer issues a family relatives were diagnosed with leukemia.

11:40 Do you know 25 22 years of age in my sister is got breast cancer. She's fighting thankfully so that that that piece of it in terms of environmental Devastation that would causing pain as I saw more and more and as I see more Gadget in the hands of young people, it seems like the more pollution I see and then you know, for example when I did my research along the Rio Grande tons of plastic bottles and other debris were there so it's it's something that that I've always been wanting to do is figure out ways to improve our lifestyle to improve how we live in and ultimately that means improving our relationships. Do you know we can't when we do it pollution were also dealing with how relating to each other on a different level. So

12:37 It's funny how you I grew up as you know in a rule area and I felt like a

12:46 I just knew I was going to work in science a new that part because the school we had the Rio Grande High School really had a great science program there. They just started they had brand new teachers brand new buildings and they really infused into the idea of science being an important Endeavor and taught us all about it and had his do cool projects and everything. So that really did impress upon me that I wanted to do that in the world and then I went into the world to do it through college in and work study program that was really going into this laboratory approach like molecular engineering and genetics and and a whole series of Cell Biology kind of approaches and I ended up in the world of cancer research and immune system research and I was surrounded by these stinky mice and he's really big egos of scientists and their huge bizarre creatures both the mice and the scientists and I found myself looking outside at the Landscaping a little bird perched on a tree and I figured I don't want to be in here with these people. So I said I'm gay.

13:46 Now and I didn't care how I got out of just got out started working as a telephone operator for the deaf. And then I just kept applying to jobs and the one with the fish and wildlife service landed and was like I'm off and so we're collecting fish and everything and it was so cool. And so from there, they said you're doing a great job. We want you to go to school at at at a school University, Arizona. So I went to finish my Master's there. And then from there they sort of like you a student Cooperative Employment Program. They put you into the system and hire you and eventually I got to where I am now, but it was a different sort of approach gel for your experiences when you were in high school. Do you remember any teaching and a teacher in particular that really stuck to? Mr. Cinema 9. Mr. Stein made us and I owe you were so

14:40 Cool first he showed us things. We never seen the inside of a cell here is the mitochondria. Here's the cytoplasm and they look like giant Machinery that are all gooey and colorful right? I mean, it was just really cool seeing the inside of a plant cell and how is all green and then but more less he engages as an offer up not as an office has a class to reply on if we are all like saying, I don't know. He said say it all together say, huh? We all go all at one time or if we knew which is right. No doubt. It was still interactive in that. We not only interacted with him in the materials we interact with each other in terms is like little competition or doozy aasimar flirts. I mean since fifth grade, so all the emotions are kicking in but the idea that we're all responding to him in the material. It was just incredible. It really set the stage.

15:34 Can you send did you have some experiences in school like that or what were your experiences?

15:45 My interest in science because in high school I had absolutely no interest in science. I could have probably been voted the least likely to become a scientist. But when I went to college at New Mexico Highlands University, there was a professor there. She was actually my father's Professor when he went to Highlands. Her name was dr. Lorna Scheels. She was parked Navajo. I believe in part. I think she was Irish, but she was a world-renowned.

16:14 Biologist botanist and she had some amazing research that she did that has benefited with us all and it was I took my biology course with her my your temporary card to take the requirements and I took biology and it was just that really opened my eyes. I took the full year with her and decided I wanted to go into science. So ended up taking all the science almost all the science courses that were offered a year physics or chemistry or geology a year of biology and decided I wanted to go into the Earth sciences and primarily because my family owns a ranch in Northern New Mexico. This is an old land grant.

17:00 On my mother's side that my great-great-grandparents TV. Cordova Hernandez and so fancy school to be a school delay both from the Las Vegas more area. And I just know I was in college. I used to go to the ranch with my mother and father we used to camp out. There's an old house there that my grandfather built about a hundred years ago. And I we are actually having the soil conservation service at that time go do some some work on our land and discussions with him. It just really sparked my interest in the earth Sciences. So that's how I got into the Sciences.

18:00 Entertain

18:01 She was fantastic. She encourage the students all the Skins entire classroom, but I happen to get straight A's in her class and she wrote a letter to my parents and ask them to encourage me to go into the Sciences. This was a 1975 1976 and she said there's a new field called the environmental Sciences. It's going to be coming up that's before environmental Sciences was even mention nobody knew what it meant. And she said really I did encourage you to to encourage your daughter to to seek a career in the in the Sciences.

18:44 Oh, they were quite proud of my father was quite happy because although I'm sure she didn't remember. My phone is dr. Shields must have been her seventies or eighties and my father I think was very very happy. He knew it was a rough road for a Hispanic in The Sciences at those time and those times and he did encourage me, but he allowed me to make my own decisions on what I wanted to do. So it's thanks to that litter in the bending then. I mean she and I were not 101. She was never beside that first-year my professor. I never worked for her, but she just Let the Sparks by believing in me and providing that encouragement and I love science time does being a Hispanic woman but even women in general were not encouraged to pursue these kinds of careers were there people who had the time in or like all that's really not for you or

19:44 To do something else you kind of stood in the way. Oh definitely experienced an awful lot of that in my profession at with the federal government. Yes, but you know any time over into the the science of it and I it's been my choice mainly to State out-of-state out of the supervisory part because I do like the technical part I like being able to to do Project work and design projects actually do the work work with others provide training to others and I have I have been supervisor but not over a big group of people. I have time at a management level and where I don't have to supervise and it's still made it to get on the management levels and I have been very four.

20:44 And that man that was more of a choice than it was a turnip precluded from being there and doing that. Yes, it was more opportunities for me to be able to move up without having a supervisory responsibilities with fish and wildlife service. I was with you OST a logical survey for 292 years working primarily on Environmental Studies hazardous, waste sites International hydrologic investigations doing a lot of design installation of monitoring Network spell groundwater surface water and water quality. And then I have the opportunity to apply for a job with fish and wildlife service to manage a program called the middle Rio Grande Bosque initiative, which is a funding program, We provided literally millions of dollars for a large number of projects primarily to Grassroots organizations here in the middle Rio Grande of New Mexico.

21:45 I'm interested in in the values and environment to ethics that you guys got from your parents. Grandparents. Excetera Joel. Can you tell us a little bit about you know, your environments that they can help with shape or form by your name the child of hippies. I mean it in the cities they had these people that I wanted to get back to kind of the roots and so my dad, well he divorced and then hit and there was us to kids that John and Joel the Sun and we ended up being attacked by a babysitter my mom Millie who was the daughter of a lobster fisherman. And so she was a very salty character and So eventually the state of Massachusetts where I was born,

22:45 I gave custody of the children to women at that time. So they actually gave custody of us to an unknown the babysitter and so my dad seeing that scenario just quickly married her and then we wanted to make a new life. So she had four sons of her own and a daughter until I had all these Step Brothers suddenly and so we're kind of in a chaos about the family and we dad converted out a Greyhound bus and we set a cup with bunks and all the house belongings and tables and and we set sail so to speak towards California where we are going to strike up a new life when we broke down on Sandia crest and realized we were here so Dad having just come through a education at University of Boston with the environmental planning really was sort of an advent guard planner and he was always about where did the people do their work? Where do they live? And and how do you connect that with the environment? They're living in the resources around so he became

23:45 Because out here in the west we were so far behind and everything. They didn't have a county planner a very good one and he came with an education and became a county planner and set up the county plan. One of the first things you had to do was fight representative domenichini to keep the sandias from being developed. So the first thing of the county plan was it more of a sake don't develop above this line. This line always had the sandias is part of the prospective cuz that's what Albuquerque is is always looking to the East and seeing the mountains and it shouldn't be populated with rich houses and people who can't afford better and always taller. So let's always make that an open space. So he was really instrumental in that and then he became someone who's like we have a world has limited resources and we are going to plan for that by becoming a small agricultural unit where will grow our own food. And so we had goats and farms and lots of chores and that kept me off the streets as it were with the gang culture that was around us at the time and

24:45 From there then just being exposed to science that was kind of the transition from the carrying of the environment locally to the how can you care if the environment more globally that from mom who was always about going out seeing the world in part of the ocean. So for a long while I had a Marine Science emphasis, and then later on we talked about the change I made towards us or the other Sciences, but she actually had the another strong Advocate strong-willed person who always said this is right in this is wrong until when things were being polluted at the time. She was not unclear about it being wrong. So I picked up the the moral value from her and I picked up the approach of planning for my dad say but tell me about your family's value and how they shape for your for your well. I was thinking about experiences that I've had in. I remember one of the earliest experiences I have with my gram.

25:45 Who could have been an engineer amazing engineer he grew up on a farm in Yuma Arizona wow marker, and he was as a young boy always fixing things and he actually was the one that fix the tractor and he could have build a car from Sticks and Stones. If you let him he he he told me much later that much later in his life before he passed away that he applied to engineering school and they tell me they laughed at him and I won't because he's hispanic Latino was that and he's I mean when he applied it was sitting on the 50s, so you we know the conditions that be wasn't going to have another Latino go through the the ranks of education and he had a barely any education. I mean, I think it was maybe 6 or 7th grade, but he knew engineering like I mean you could email to work with his hands and you but he

26:45 When one of my earliest memories is that he planted a tree it was a pinyon tree in the back of his place. And that was the tree that he actually be planted it when I was born and then he would take me out there and water it every time I visited during the summer and then for all his faults cuz he had a lot of them including alcohol. He he also had of some really gems. The other thing. I remember is my mom did all history of our family and I had heard throughout my life about our car all of our family basically on my mom's side. We're all Farm Workers. They worked in they work picking cotton in Arizona. If you can imagine that they did that they went to California California from Arizona to do Cannery. They worked in the Cannery Mills. My grandpa's in the steel mill in Oakland or Pittsburg, California, which is

27:45 A huge pouring out there for you. It would see what the name is but it's a huge one. And I just remember that we always work in the land and the one thing that's interesting is my grandparents great-grandparents how they encouraged their family not to ever do that because it was so hard and that's one thing that I find very common with other Latinos is that if we talked about going to do organic farming some of the students look at us like we're crazy because that's like going back to a great grandparents when they had a slave and do pick cotton Under the Sun Sun at you know, a hundred and ten degrees which you know looking at it. Yes. That part is is the horrible part and it's the slavery part is there and it's and it's something that we have to dress but it's also true that we do have a a rich history connection to the land and is very important and we see the importance of local food.

28:45 I'll let you know what's it's better quality of food and and all these things are starting to come back to us and turns her again Ike and local production, but we've let that way and we we we we know we didn't have people back then didn't have Walgreens and they tended to grow their own food. All of them have Gardens. They all bought on. My my mom's birthday gift every year for like 23 years was a box of corn down the street and when I was in high school middle school, my mom always taught me that the corn is like a grandmother like all of us came from the corn and I never understood that until I actually read a book call sailu Corn a corn mother and it talks about that the history of a lot of indigenous people of this continent thought of corn as as a as a parent and some of the creation stories say that we came for

29:45 Corn and it's true that I mean that was one of the first agrarian type of Technologies. If you will that we developed as a people is that we learn how to splice us a grass seed and make it bigger and and grow corn and people lived, you know, they did tortillas out of corn. I mean a lot of things were made out of corn that are healthy up other than the corn syrup every bill today, but I'm and then my my dad

30:14 Always reminded me about the environment in a very I think not in so much the environment as our mother and thus the sky is our father as my mom did but but he did too but what would what he's his take on it is he had a real social justice message from very beginning. So when I was and I remember one of the earliest things he always used to tell me to completely eat everything on my plate and never put more food on my plate that I'm going to eat because there's people in the world that don't have half of what we're eating and so don't take your food for granted be respectful of the food and the food that you eat. The act of eating is actually a the active of of creation because you're creating you're taking life and you're creating it all the same time. So that's a real living creation. So I've always in and then also with the social justice idea of do you only take what you need? So that's that's kind of where I

31:14 My

31:21 My Grandpa's name is Fidel Martinez and my great-grandmother's name is Elena Martinez, and she's actually her maiden name is.

31:33 What's the name of Imperial and they're actually the Imperial Valley of California is actually named after a family. It would front of 100 Proof Example The Border we didn't cross the border the Border crossed test or Critter example.

31:56 Each of the stores. Could you?

32:01 Grandfather

32:03 That has influenced you or how it how it even shapes your work day today as a biologist and in terms of what you do now as a as a scientist, how did those kind of Ethics in the things you grow? Well it is and it's some it's multiple not just from my great-grandparents but parents found other family that had pretty you know conscious being on Earth conscious, but in terms of I always think of environment as me I never think of it. I mean we do we always in science. We always used to wear natural resources or environmental ethics. But to me in my mind and heart my heart's mind. What I really feel is that I would never use those terms to describe. In fact when I'm with Native people or or other indigenous people or Earth conscious people I never use that kind of terminology. I always say mother or father because that's I think

33:03 The real relationship that we need to have and it might not be scientifically accurate, even though you can go to the Gaia hypothesis which in turn on the signs part of it, but it's an important relationship because as we see if we don't start relating it to it and it doesn't help. I don't think with natural resources, even though when we say natural resources to protect natural resources, but if we see it as something as us, I mean if we see the ocean as our blood if we see water as our blood if we see this are her lungs, which they are in our lungs wouldn't be anything if we didn't have a connection to are in fact, our lungs are held up by are so, you know those things and even if you get into the science of it are the reason why are blood turns red is the same reason why the Iron Rock from the hummus turns red same exact reason, you know, if it reacts with oxygen turns red in the same thing that happens in our blood happen.

34:04 In and Rockside, you know to me that that's that's something that I've it's funny that you say that because you know, I see you I see you as your life, but I don't see you so much as a scientist first and foremost, it's funny when I when I see you, I see your connection to the culture in the next education and and the connection to our world and the mother more than I see you as connected to being the Ph.D. Use studies ecology is working in this program. And I guess I never really knew why that was but I just never sort of think how easy colleges in the office and I don't think of that room with you to get a thermostat on this is his life and it's and it's perfused reading in the air out throughout everything and you just happened to be in this position. So yeah, that's really don't know why you know, this this triangle that we have here with the three of us we have soap.

34:58 I'm watching, yet. So many differences in one thing. That's all. I've always been very interested in Joel that we have a lot in common yet. So different juul you grew up in the South Valley Caucasian growing up amongst primarily Latinos. I would love Tina and I grew up in the Northeast Heights primarily with Caucasians. And I know it was it was not easy all the time. And if I would someday really love to have a detailed conversation about your experiences and come and compare art. My experience is to just to see how many fortunately I think we all respect the cultural and the cultural diversity of this of this area and the state

35:49 There's a true blonde. There's a true respect amongst each other. And in the end how we grew up I think and then masayo coming from the San Francisco are being born and raised primarily in the Latino Community also, right but yet amongst people from all over the world, but we haven't talked about your family values and how do you team but we'll get back to that. Last one has a ranch up in Northern New Mexico, which is near and dear to my media to family plus all my first cousins second cousins 3rd 4th cousins aunts uncles and we will leave it to you to our children the respect of the land the nurturing of the land + bringing the family all together at least once a year to that.

36:50 To get together. How was Winnie? How is the do you have any memories of how that respect was conveyed to you or was it just an appreciation of and look at the stars? Look at the clouds. Was there a ceremony behind it or there was no ceremony. It's just the way we lived. It was the annual Gatherings at

37:09 Piece of land where we were

37:13 You know, hopefully the spirits of my grandparents my great-great-grandparents and Etc. There's a feeling that that's their present is presence is strongly there and they keep us safe on that land. We enjoy we love our family. We it's it's nothing but happy times when we're all together on that land the house has been restored by some master artists. I called him from the Las Vegas Mora area these men who have had hard times and they needed a job and my mother hired them to to restore the the house which is fully livable again, and it's just by living we weren't we never have ceremonies again. We never had teaching. It's just the way of life in the way. We were brought up and that strong family ties. I must mention to that. My father was a

38:13 Who's the scientist use a chemist? My mother was a working mother. She worked at Sandia National Labs retired after 42 and a half years. So both my mother and my father were my primary role models who taught me so much in life and gave me the values that you know that they weren't they weren't preach they were practiced. And those are the values that I fortunately I've gained in my sister with my kids have also you don't get to bring us back on one thing and inexperience with me has been the water really has been an important aspect of my life. And when I picked up from the assay Kia system in which I live in the South Valley and that is you know, the diversion of water from the right mother of water the Rio Grande onto the land and the Beautiful things that you can create with it. And so I meant wonderful characters in the South Valley both Hispanic and then Caucasian and they were generally the older leftover Farmers from

39:13 The previous-generation the gutierez form subdividers and so forth and so are they had adapted their lives and had grown things from the land of this water and it was just too amazing. They were just wonderfully colorful characters. And when I was exposed to that that was my real peaceful refuge in my real connection is moving with your auntie landscape growing things. However, frustrating the weeds were just that connection was so peaceful. So what is Hive that that just perfused me but I have a sense that that sort of the safety of culture that sort of system I heard it with you once but I did to you is I are you do you have that Center? Have you had that experience primarily because back on this land that we have

40:02 Northern New Mexico to the repair in area on the 7th flows through our land and it used to be a perennial stream for the past eight years or so. It's been drawing annually so and the effect it actually starts on our property. So, you know since the since I was quite young I understood and then we affect your system and how valuable Waters her to our land now while working with the US fish and wildlife service in my tiled with fish and wildlife service is hydrologist middle Rio Grande coordinator. It's more so opened up my eyes because when I was with USGS, it was the pure science part of studying water now, it's relating Water to plants and animals and fish and understanding to having a much better understanding of the water rights issues and water rights issues in the Rio Grande and yes cultures people have water rides, but

41:02 The fish and the fish don't the fair in the Stream do not have water rights. And that's something that I think we need to provide to educate the the population more about hitting people are gaining much more respect for water. And this is another thing that I think is so important that I know sales heart is totally and I know chills hard as in and that's a recruiting You Scientist to take over our work that we're doing everything. We have all been major participants in that in the Next Generation and and we're dedicated to that.

41:41 You know, Jolin Tsai, you might want to come in a little more on that. And how do we connect them to this old world that still exists why I know we have limited time, but this is so we can have a whole nother interview with this. But but I think one of the things that that strikes me is that job, you know, the economy and environment now are becoming talked about in the same sentence so that you know, it's jobs that help the environment that actually don't pollute the environment are now quote unquote the sustainable Green Job economy. So that kind of conversation is really really positive for us to have because if we can be employed and not kill ourselves at the same time, then we're doing good. But previous to this we've had a lot of jobs were its banks paying our bills and that's all we really cared about supporting our family. That's all we really cared about but was also polluting our bodies in the fireman.

42:41 So now we're becoming a hopefully that kind of Consciousness. You know, I think we have like 20 years left and which we have to survive in terms of keeping our resources functioning and clean as long as we can and then at 20 years when Big Oil finally shuts down then we won't be using cars everywhere making huge amounts of plastic. So if we just get to that point that those systems that remain somewhat intact will still be salvageable into the future and you do the future changes and that if we just preserve this these Lifestyles his connection to the land will be able to carry on for the future those techniques when it becomes obvious that sell phones in cars and getting ahead in life isn't the only thing that matters it matters are connections will once we have no oil near the word chain.

43:28 Joel I would like to thank you for actually inviting masayo and I to participate with you in this discussion to thank you and the sale for participating in this discussion. I think it's a unique contribution to the storycorps event.

43:49 I would like to thank both of you being for being Mentor stand for for doing this.