Carl Cole and Mikel Cole

00:04 My name is Mikhail Cole on 39 years old. It's November 3rd 2012. We're here in Charleston, South Carolina, and I am going to interview my dad.

00:16 I'm Carla Cole age 65 November 3rd 2012 or in Charleston, South Carolina, and I mikel's father.

00:28 So that I know I part of your interest in doing this is the kind of record some of the family stories that you want to want to not disappear along the way and kind of my take on this is I think that the oral history project is a pretty cool opportunity to create some kind of a concrete connection between past generations and future Generations. I'm kind of trying to look back and forward and create some kind of in-between. I don't know if maybe you want to start with your parents and kind of move back from there or if you want to start having the previous generations and work your way forward, but maybe talk about your mom's family your dad's family.

01:04 Got ya, there are going to starting backing and coming to current and there are several themes that kind of move through the generations that are probably Independence. Aims, it better things that

01:25 Seemed important to me that that I'd like to mention at least.

01:32 And one of them is his idea of doing a little better with each generation in the previous generations and both of my grandparents maternal grandparents and paternal balls. Homesteaded literally went out in the

01:53 In the woods and made a clearing and built a house and and and did subsistence trapping and hunting and farming to say hi to love other names.

02:07 William Dodson hunt and Lena

02:16 On the maternal side. I'm actually named after him. I'm going to lay William is from car from William, Dodson.

02:23 And on the paternal side exactly but step grandfathered me up Dad stepdad, Jerry. We will he was naturalized and he was born Carl Gearhart. We will first name named after him Mama wanted to spell it with a K. Turn the Danish spelling. It was born out. It was the Carl Gerhard. It was okay. But what was that flies his name bangle size to Jerry Carl spelled with a c and he was adamant that if I was going to be named after him, he was an American down spell Deceit by post World War One at that point the right. Yeah, Yeah, that's probably made me have been part of it. Although he just said he was an American now.

03:19 And that's actually one of the other scenes both of them fought and were wounded in France or or or one is that military service same-side? It was Southern Colorado there around Pagosa Springs for Dad was born for you and Julie were married and on my other side. It was the mountains and the Ouachita mountains in Eastern Oklahoma. I've got Mama's original birth certificate at home and for parents address. It says the Hills North of Big Cedar.

03:55 Brandon Hunt died

04:00 Before I was born yes, I never really knew him Granny live with us when I was growing up and a lot of those stories and I want to get recorded our stories that she call about when they were there on the side of the mountain and after they moved to town if you could call a half dozen Families Town later know a lot of those stories then Dad told a lot of stories about there.

04:30 Amazon in Colorado as well. You're not the other more stories and there is time to record here. But that's the only been talking about me getting a lot of those things recorded So that auroral have those their favorite one you want to put down?

04:45 Well, there's one that that address is one of those themes and that's the notion of genetic disposition to Mischief. If you will not my fault. It's your grandmother your Nana's fault.

05:05 I'm going to ramble off here, but I wouldn't tell that part of it you her dad is was mistress and and and dad was my dad.

05:15 She lived less than a year after he died and during that interval that she was back to reflecting and she was thinking about your uncle skips father. God skirt older brothers a half-brother and died in World War II.

05:38 Mama said at the time that she was just so shocked by that then she just shut down and he thought about it and move from where they were stationed in Washington state down to Southern California or eventually I met dad and I was born that way. Yeah.

05:55 And she just hadn't reflected on it all those years. But after dad died she got to thinking about it and skips. Dad John is she calling? I think that was probably was that had that same sort of Mischief in dry humor the dad had it occurred to her that you know, she was just attracted to that. It's a fact that you all are here. She she taught preschool Sunday school and looking back the reason she didn't all those years. It was always that one mischievous little boy in the class. Did she just enjoyed being around so my conclusion is it that Mischief that we all share? You know, it's not our fault. We were selectively bred for it as bad as false.

06:46 The butt one of those stories that the kind of tells that about her father, whatever up there on the mountain they were a long way from any

06:55 For many town as soon as I said a walk along way to the woods just to get to a dirt road and then a long way from there to town and town was a half dozen families in a railroad station and

07:08 But he had been to town and they didn't have visitors very often then some I did came, they stayed for a while, but have been to town old friend has is coming back up spend some time at entrapping with him.

07:22 And before they got up there on the mountain hate he told Grant until this guy said you never met my new little life went lame that she's the sweetest thing but I got to tell you something about her. She's almost deaf is supposed to shout all the time cuz she can't hear yourself and you'll have to shove her to hear you. But I know if you get past that you don't you just love her only one room into kitchen out back and he hustled her off in the kitchen and said he's got an old friend. He's a great guy. So I know you like him, but I got to tell you something about it. He's almost deaf is opposed Shuffle sad cuz he can't hear you left out so he can hear you all the guys stayed there for weeks. And the three of us are all the mountains shouting at the top and logs and never did. Let him off the hook.

08:12 That that's that's all I want.

08:25 Doing better with each generation has one of those saying it I guess since economic is part of it. Although there may be some that you may have some reservations about about what your economic future is going to be your own phrase expressing.

08:50 Advance Auto know what the

08:55 What education my grandparents your great-grandparents had but my parents your grandparents were essentially high school education. I think Dad's case that probably was a GED they probably dropped out of school early to work and and then went back and got a GED lighter. I'm almost as it was. It was a country school high school diploma from Darren and Heavener I think was where she went to high school.

09:26 Later, she went back to college was going to was going to teach and she got a couple years and then unexpectedly got pregnant with Kevin the youngest brother. I was in junior high school time and I never did go back and finish close to my grandparents. My grandmother's for teachers.

09:47 And you know then of

09:50 Myself. Am I my brother's two of the four of us have 4-year degrees bachelor's degrees and it's a guy. He's an architect with a postgraduate education.

10:06 Muhammad maybe, but he had a little and yet some post graduate MBA courses, but I was I was never a serious MBA candidate. I was just cherry-picking things were very interesting to me.

10:23 But

10:25 You have a you have a doctorate and and your Aurora is clearly well positioned to have educational opportunities, but you're absolutely right there. Clearly. Is that along an academic lion? If if not

10:45 On the flashlight

10:50 You'll see that that's one of those things. I think I was just kind of the classic American American Dream sort of thing. I jokes that I I have been around Logistics. My whole life dad was a Teamster and I knew about double double clutching before my feet were long enough to reach reach the clutch.

11:17 At my first job out of college was was with a Arkansas best freight company are its corporate office and related companies in and doing Trucking in.

11:30 Software applications only program in the 70s. Right now and then the other company that came to South Carolina for for Camp bar that was with Logistics applications new order entry in warehouse management software development. Logistics said, the only other. In there was was in the Navy when I first turned Vietnam was was a military sea transportation service office bringing supplies into the into the military.

12:08 And the second to her was on that Heavy Cruiser up north blowing the heck out of the North Vietnamese Logistics coming south and all that that was maybe not quite as constructive is the others but it was logistic.

12:23 And you're one of those other themes that kind of curious to see if some more time military service both my grandparents like said earlier you thought were wounded in war war one. I've got some paperwork that stuff. I need to get down and get put away for its Reserve like my mom has birth certificate so that you'll have it the series of communications about Granddad hunt been wounded World War 1. There's a there's a telegram and a series of local newspaper articles from there in Dickson, Tennessee, and then finally a letter from him and it starts with the letter from the war department regretting that he was killed in action.

13:11 And then through the newspaper articles, he gets progressively better than that. I might have told ya in the hospital and he did actually lose sight in one eye but was never never quite as seriously wounded is

13:33 Ebony way both both of them fought and granddaddy. We will lose gassed with mustard gas and then Dad you have fought in the Pacific Grove landing craft for the Army? He would never talk about combat Landings. I'm members kid asking him and he would just kind of struck it off and they say all most of the time we were just preparing supplies in

14:02 But y'all was just would never any tell other stories and it goes snow humor sayings around missed you certain things around the edge, but I just would never talk about the comment but a lot of times those those vehicles for pulling up on heavily fortified be two boatloads of people in town come and gone. And so the landing craft drivers didn't make it in and mini as a people if they unloaded.

14:34 And better yet, he would never never talk about that. Then I did two tours in Vietnam both volunteer and and the second carry a Combat Action ribbon from a military formal definition of of combat is comes down to the other guy shot back from Vietnam. There's a lot of a was a lot of draft taking place at that point and you volunteered to go. So well, there was a great debate going on in the country at the time and both arguments made perfect sense to me you have the the notion by countries at War and again, there's a family tradition and it just made sense to to go serve and I was I was in the Navy

15:30 But the other the other arguments about you know, what are we doing? And this little country on the other side of the world interfering and in their self-determination, I love since 2 and I'm on my own just couldn't resolve it. So I'm not explicit reason was I'll go see for myself.

15:53 Retrospect you have an answer when I got from it was an appreciation for questions that don't have simple answers and both arguments actually word legitimate and Alan it just the picture was a lot more complex than that.

16:11 Yeah that volunteering. The first time I was in The Returned and it to your obligation active duty obligation. I went out to reserve office and said send me to Vietnam and personality are you cut your orders? But I can't you don't either but if you don't I said that crazy have two countries going to Canada and you won't send me to Vietnam and he gave me this bureaucratic shrug. And God said something really impolite and left and went downtown to the regular Navy recruiter in exchange for a 3-year obligation. They guaranteed me Duty and Country at some point you ask to be a river boat on a river boat the most dangerous and I can guarantee you do the in-country. I just want to be on a Riverboat, because that's where the Navy combat was going to work now when I got to Saigon.

17:11 A cooler a more rational approach overtook me and I just went ahead and did the duties there and didn't actually pursue trying to get transferred II tour. I got left left Saigon that what's that Cruiser and just immediately when I referred him or they sent me off to a cease-fire prepare school last most of the summer and when I came back from that the ship was going to Vietnam. They actually that's reason it shouldn't be late to be equipped correlated. They had to mail it to need to be filled with somebody trained for that anyone needed two people on.

17:53 I came back from Chief call me in his office and then somebody really screwed up said you always sent you the school. So that would be would be ready to go to has a bill at full and we can't send you back because current rules to time where they could send you to Vietnam once but they couldn't send send you for a second to her involuntarily is it we can't we can't send you back over there unless you volunteered but it's okay chief. I'll get one. Piece of paper that signed it.

18:29 As part of this bridge and I kind of have a road map in mind. I'm you talked about your life in these different kinds of phases of a big kind of carving it up into maybe Meander's of a river is a is a better metaphor in the military services part of that early phase right some kind of can you sketch out with those around the time? I was fifteen. Precisely at that age at somewhere around then it occurred me to see my life and quarter centuries.

19:01 And roughly in the first quarter Century. I went to school and went to war.

19:08 Yeah, by the time I was mid mid twenties I had my degree in was off to go to a couple tour. Yeah, and Susan the next quarter-century. I was engaged in building a career and raising a family.

19:24 And that y'all those are the things that really just occupied by the majority of my time and attention.

19:31 And your body by that time that I was about 50 hours.

19:40 I was still working, but I do know.

19:44 Wasn't pushing to accomplish a lot in from a career standpoint? You guys were emancipated and Concepts at the well, actually actually just as a side note. It's not it's not the children are emancipated. I just figured I'd have probably had another quarter-century ahead of me.

20:16 And I thought that I would just me and her for that last quarter-century and meanders really up as I use it a pretty loaded term y'all for sort of a Dallas non-directed live in a river, right? Yeah and end the point is that they are the

20:38 The least energy approach for a river to work its way to the ocean and

20:47 Fighting the the the path of least resistance and that dissipate energy it at the the most gentle and graceful is not the shortest reigning. Yeah, and I really like that that since of Me and You Know It

21:06 In lots of ways, I think I've actually I've actually been doing that in this last quarter century.

21:13 Spend some time thinking about and try to Define criteria for when to retire, but you never actually got around to making that decision it just kind of happened and that's okay. I retired now.

21:28 I used to used to joke that Greg my old butt out of bed a little slower everyday and get in the office a little later. That was that one of these days. I would it be 5 by the time I got to the office, but I guess I'd be retired late stage of your life in this this particular Meander is about Meandering that you've been making electrics. Are you made several trips back to Vietnam? Right? So I'm interested in the other Britain past generations to Future Generations. It's a big picture be even in your own life is a microcosm of Vietnam seems like one of those bridges for you. Well, it's it's Gateway is the term that I've used and I can't entirely explain it.

22:21 But up

22:25 Vietnam stood more first went back in 2004 for the first trans and Pat and I went back in 2006.

22:37 Thanks again for the second as well as the most revered.

22:49 Figure in in Vietnamese history of Chinese Independence and identity arrived yet. And I figured if I was going to understand the Vietnamese that I need to understand now know what he meant to him. So you went back to come to understand Vietnam where you had surgery more run right before we went back to the one thing. I want to go back to places that I remembered where I lived and worked in Saigon and and that I wanted to see if my memory was right that fish sauce. Mom was the essential character of Saigon after we walked around for a couple things. I told her I was close. It was really fish sauce in incense and it really does it just that that are open to find the city. You didn't really before that.

23:45 Well, I did it before but I need to send a letter asking for Saigon is more Temple incense, which is not a pure Sandalwood big bundle of big huge purple Similac Taiwan regionally those Temple and since it's a little different, but they're pretty close.

24:10 What was the theme for the second truck can haul we were?

24:18 That trip was spring and salt weed.

24:22 On the way home from Vietnam week went by Hong Kong and were there in time for the 10 Hof Festival?

24:32 It's not the cough here in a second.

24:38 Ken hard, Ken Hein Vietnam are not suing

24:45 Taiwan and most of mainland China the same Dallas goddess the one who protects those Sailors those who go to see

24:59 The first time I went in there 10 hot temple and Cholla on the Chinese district is Saigon where I first lived when I was stationed there. I was in fact a young sailor In Harm's Way.

25:13 And put away wet back in 2006. I was here right at 40 years later.

25:19 And so we went to the Kellogg Temple and troll on and the one hand and in Hong Kong we're friends, and man. We went to the $10 Festival up in your long and went to the temple are and all three of those. I've bought one of those large Sandalwood coil is it will burn for a couple of weeks to tell hang in the temple.

25:48 Has little red prayer card put in the middle on a Prayer. I just wrote. Thanks and my rationale was I'm not sure that I quite.

26:01 Believes that literal mythology about I got two guys protecting people but

26:10 Is the first time I was in that temple in enchilada was a young sailor In Harm's Way and here it was four years later and I managed to live to be an old man. So maybe I wasn't in Hobbs. It was hard safe night. You see that are those trips back as a Gateway personalities, and I can't exactly explain it. But

26:40 If each of those three quarter century.

26:45 It's

26:48 It does if it was a different person that someone that I knew very well. I'm very familiar with but

26:59 It's as if during those transition. There's this sort of intellectual craziness. R. All the pieces get jumbled around and identity. Yeah and reassemble a little differently and

27:16 For whatever reason for their post, that sort of stress coming back from Vietnam or for the next.

27:28 We are going back to Vietnam the right kind of reconnect with some other things are just being a transition point my life. Anyway, when I did that those gate that those Vietnam gateways seem to be times in my life when I was going to one of those rearrange the pieces and that person that I remember during that big metal. You know, your father and the guy who who worked

27:59 Or the the the one that been in school and volunteered to go to Vietnam. I know it I know intellectually that that's the same person when it's not really you but but yeah, it's like a different person than I just have to know very well and for whatever reason Vietnam going to Vietnam has been sort of a Gateway for those those things plus I just really love the country and the people also we talked to her a bit about war and it's been kind of one of those pink things to office and I will talk about it makes me think of younger brother. He was he was probably into me buffets terms of son of a son of a sailor right now and you had a similar poem about sailing canvas and a few reference Craftsman that right so that you also part of how you frame him now is as a sailor like yourself

28:57 You know, my daughter's birth Aurora was really framed by a good friend of mine in and my PC program. She died about three more months before was born in across start 3-4 months after right and so the birth and death, I think they talked about the duality of the question of War for yourself and Ward is a lot of that both death and kind of creative Force right? Like I pay later Hawaiian goddesses are a Creator and a destroyer right? So thinking about how my daughter's birth is really frame by death. That's part of who questions for me right now. What does it mean? Where do you go with that?

29:45 Well, I don't know that I that I really

29:49 Text meaning the Crest is death so much as to his life. And of course, those are I see the whole world and it has two sided coins and those knows that's another one of those two sided cards life and death of the same, but

30:11 I would have preferred that Chris is life be less trouble and and longer than it was but

30:25 It still is its.

30:28 There's a joy just in in the fact of his life on that first trip back to Vietnam when I laid the wreath in the Gulf of Tonkin the Shipmates Oracle are here in that poem that I wrote.

30:49 The

30:51 Night before playing at the middle part of that poem

30:56 Says every accomplishment and even each disappointment every joy and even each moment of Sorrow is a precious gift.

31:08 Premier ship night she died so far from home size process death a gift.

31:17 Well

31:19 There's a snippet in the middle of that Passage.

31:26 Even each moment of Sorrow is a precious gift.

31:35 Even emotions that we are nearly think of is negative. Just the ability to to feel those is is a part of the

31:48 Awesome Business of Being self-aware and and Crescent life. His troubles was was was still that it was it was a life of awareness and and and and lots of of

32:05 Both sides of the of a coin in his case and

32:18 Area of the very things that we loved about him is his

32:23 Mischief in his charm and y'all those those very likely were part of what what let him down the path that

32:35 Was this trouble as it was but but

32:43 It's

32:46 To not have

32:48 Had that experience of Crescent our life lives and and for him to have not had that experience. Y'all would it would it would have been a great loss and even you know even losing him is

33:08 I know, you know a joke about who is The Giver in a precious gift, but it but it is a precious thing and I know it's part of that.

33:18 Joy of awareness you sketched out a bit of a genealogical story moving in and then your own life thinking about these these stages. Talk about Chris's death. Do you think about your own death? If you do, what do you think? I'm pretty laid-back about it. I am it's it's a great life. It's been a great life.

33:48 And I would be tickled for there to be another 10 or 20 years. But if I fell over dead today when we're getting out of this trailer that that's fine.

34:02 I'm just just real comfortable to since my own mortality. I'm

34:08 Enjoy life and and how much of it there is there is I have no no sense of of

34:20 Any

34:22 Life after this one of NE

34:26 Persistence of of my individual awareness or our spirit. Am I being partially and temporarily aware of it? So you don't see a sense of awareness the sense of what I am all of us are as is is all of existence having managed to find a way to be temporarily and partially aware of itself. And that's that precious precious gift, you know to the

34:59 Actually be aware of incense enjoy what we're doing and and there's nothing quantitative about that. You know, when it's over it's over. I'm in existence will be aware of itself in other places and other ways just not not me that this particular one. I'm cool with that a lot of a lot of I guess the more animistic car.

35:26 Out with an older forms of religion ancestors still are right in China how you talk to an agent of the Grave sweeping day is a big time and it did to smartest in the Latin American countries us some more thing go out to the graveyard to clean things up at the time of communicating with the ancestors and there's a strong sense of connection. I think back to grandparents or great-grandparents were for us or other loved ones that you've lost along the way. Do you have a sense of connectedness? Not not in the sense of of feeling their presence or are of of connecting to them, you know, they are

36:12 Present in in in our awareness but up not running it connected since the last trip back to that trotting down trip and one of the places that we went after visiting the number of temples and things with the Tron family.

36:32 Temple in name Dean

36:35 And garlic classic three tiered Temple a temple within the temple was in a temple and the

36:47 Way supplicants would approach that was there went to the outer Temple to the ancestors of crown him Dow's ancestors and requested permission to go to

36:59 To go to the ancestors and then went to the ancestors and requested permission.

37:04 2

37:08 Kapray to Toronto now and it was it was at that Temple of that time that I realized how how much literal literal literally they they were speaking to the spirits of these out previously alive people and I said at the time that I was like a climber and climbs a mountain and and was in afraid to look over the edge. I just don't quite by that it doesn't quite meet my experience. I would like to maybe to academic give me maybe just a history these conversations really kind of push you a little bit as a Dallas to see things as a singularity in return to the singularity as a scientist who sees us all being something of Stardust incarnate some general Universal connectedness underlying all that and yet you see that suddenly ending it. Thought I'd like to push you on that, but I don't think we have

38:08 Time to really answer those violent end of the simple answer. That is I understand how you could come to that point but it's just not part of my everyday experience. So I guess I kind of have this couple minutes left this being a bridging moment, right thinking across all these things. So looking ahead looking ahead at current Generations at these new branches on the family tree. You've remarried Thrift new family here these new connections grandkids on both sides of those new and old graphs or whatever. So thinking ahead I am time back all this genealogy. I mean that's real you recording this for somebody right now.

38:51 Setting that you want to leave or say to your children grandchildren.

38:56 Future Generations

38:58 Well, if you recall giving you and Chris.

39:05 Silver dollars on point always two sides of a coin that you know, it was it that said I I looked and looked and look for a coin that had only a head on it and couldn't find it. Finally concluded that they all have a tail on the other side and that I suspect life is much the same way that everything everything that you you encounter and deal with the good and the bad are always integral parts of the same thing. And so rather than wishing up a life of happiness and goodness. I would wish for you to the the peace and the wisdom to do to be able to accept the good and the bad is as as precious things in the

39:58 Good take great joy in and just being aware and and being around the people that you love.

40:08 I love you, and I miss you.