Jack Kay and Cathy Kay

00:04 Hi, my name is Kathy K. I am 57 years old. It is November 3rd 2013. We are in Los Angeles, California, and I'm here to chat with my father Jack k

00:18 Legally I am Jackson k for all of my adult life. I've been known as cat cat and the today is November 3rd 2013 and Los Angeles and I'm about to have a conversation with my daughter Kathy.

00:39 And just for the record what name were you born with? That's questionable.

00:48 The name that I used until after the war world war with Jacob won't sign that was my father's name. And there's that all came about through where is leaving running away from Russia as a teenager and changing his name when he made a new life for himself in Vienna and when he came to this country that was the name that he had all the one of my birth certificate it's misspelled as milstein. Am I a s t i n and I didn't even know I didn't even know that you had a different name than Jack K until I was in high school. What is that trying to trace back? My father's her did she say there was some question as to what his name was in Russia. There was a family of the tongue can dogies in a town of geisen about the

01:48 Oh, it's just a bit north of Odessa and Russia and there were a lot of Tonkin hoagies and no signs most signs voloskies. It had a large Jewish community and much of that Community immigrated to this country on my father's part. Oh it was essentially in the Philadelphia area his whole family. My mother's family also from Adesa Russia. It settled in New York in the tenement District at the time. So it's always been a question. What is my name? But essentially through greatest part of my life just in Jack k for which I am ever grateful K is much better than Tonkin. Okay. Thank you very much is one of my motivations.

02:43 We're going to talk about life a little bit. And I think that I want to start with talking about your about the War World War II. If so explain what you who you what did you do in the war? When did when did you get over to Europe? Where were you would you do?

02:59 It is no it was a different kind of war that time.

03:05 We had been attacked and the answer was to defend yourself. So we were drafted into the army. And I remember that the war was getting along and it was begin. The tide was beginning to turn and I began to think. Hey, she was if I don't get into this thing. I'm going to be considered a wimp the rest of my life for not having Taken part in protecting the country. So I went to the draft board and said, hey, can you move up my draft my draft board time and they said you're very happy to accommodate you. Oh, so instead of about the perhaps six or eight months ahead. It took three months until they got around to me and that's how I got in into the arm to your and it was from Brooklyn New York where I was living with my mother and her first family then

04:03 I remember the induction in New York City. It was a very difficult to activity true and I was assigned to the Infantry.

04:20 Exactly in Granite. Nothing is good in the Infantry. I lucked out and that was a go Hallmark of nachos to war but probably in my whole life every time I was faced with some danger. I somehow lucked out and in the Army here, I am an infantry division. It was being recommissioned from World War. I and sent to the depths of Mississippi for basic training and you could only been on the East Coast your entire life my whole lot of a big city boy, Philadelphia New York Los Angeles and all of a sudden I'm in love in the depths of Mississippi at the other end of the cultural Spectrum.

05:05 That was a shocking Revelation. And what was it? What was the most shocking thing to you in the most shocking thing is the Prejudice in the surrounding unbelievable. On the on the bus at Camp to go into town and there were African troops in line with the rest of us and the local sheriff monitors the line and pushed out all of these black soldiers were made him go to the back of the line and those of us from the north where were ready to revolt but the sheriff very clearly put his hand on his pistol and and that's what we were faced with that. That's what shocked me and the rest of us are all sitting boys the most

05:58 Did you see any Prejudice for being Jewish?

06:02 No, I never felt any of that at all and in the hole on the experience and lucky me again. Once we got to what camp resigned the different jobs and I wound up with a job. That was highly specialized in an infantry division or 15,000 men.

06:30 And there was a requirement for 1 medical secretary medical sonographer. I happened was taught shorthand and typing at school and I knew medical terminology. So I became the secretary to the division surgeon for the whole extent of War luck. Emoji wasn't part of the killing troops or just part of the saving troops because we had the job in the responsibilities you up just totally more saving than than anything else. We have the responsibility for Health and Care of 15,000 men and that was pretty responsible job that I can never keep a straight Battalion division. Okay, if it runs from start at the top

07:30 And you got an army. So we were in Patton's third Army. Okay. Okay, then it's made up of several horror. Okay, and my car was a score with General Middleton a most extraordinary commander and from a core your work down two divisions eats coral will have anywhere from two to four or five divisions on it. Okay to get the way Division and then you got three regiments to an artillery Battalion and all of the supporting elements the engineer signal that medical people and that was the structure of it. And I think that's still pretty much the way it goes in in the Army today. So there I am on the Bottom Rung and infantry combat division in about us

08:24 In about a safe A place as you can be in the Infantry. Yeah, we got shot out. A number of times shells landed in the compound. But essentially we were a kilometer or more behind the front action to go see the division headquarters was the nerve center of the whole fifth the whole divisions activities. He stayed a medical secretary throughout whole war from the from the day they are drafted until the division was decommissioned there. What chances do to go to Officers Training School?

09:04 And go on these OCS program, but I chose not to go have a good game. Good thing it was made for me and I didn't know if it if there's anything that you can enjoy in an army job. I really enjoyed the job because I was good at it and I was useful and how long were you in Europe? Oh about a year at the very end of the week. I went over on on what was classified as a secret mission before any Infantry Division 1 across the ocean. They would send up a small Corps of officers and non-commissioned officers to go ahead and prepare the arrival for the troops. So I was elected to that honorable position as

10:04 Secret mission which is a hilarious story on the way itself, but in any event.

10:13 I want over in September of 1943.

10:22 43 Woodland 40

10:25 I thought I don't know later 4444 went into the army in 43, February and September that was after basic training Maneuvers and we were ready to move. So here I am and let you in on the secret mission if the enemy found out there was an advance party going across the new that there'd be fifteen thousand men following and they would alert alert the Food Packs to be looking for them. So it was quite an adventure to do in due time to two months or so and then we cross the channel and work in the action from their aunt.

11:18 So it went from first from the city of Matteson koblenz to all the way across Germany to the Czechoslovakian border when when the war ended and I took in one of the earliest actions was the Battle of the Bulge itself. So it was quite a tremendous experience. How do you think it's shaped you?

11:48 What impact does it have on your foot look at outlook on life?

11:54 It made me more aware of the preciousness of human life.

12:01 Didn't add anything to my character.

12:05 I'm not quite sure that that that happened because I made an easy transition from civilian life into the military most kids did something to do with the new all about regimentation and it was just a natural progression into the army which made that transition much easier for me.

12:40 Waiting in line when I got out of the army. I swore I would never in the rest of my life ever stand in a line for longer than 20 minutes any line and I pretty much a pretty much healthy that the only time I didn't hold of that which was once when the Annie Leibovitz the great photographer was doing a book signing over in Century City, and I know that your interest in Annie Leibovitz was very hot. I was going to get a copy of her book autographed for you. So I stood in line for maybe an hour and a half and I ain't no other reason I taste when you got out of the war and went back to civilian life was that hard transition? Oh,

13:36 No, it was not a hard transition while I know it ain't no more regimentation disappointed that time of my life. I've had enough of it all through this. Me somewhere where I can be a free man and do my own thing and the end that was part of why I left New York and moved the other end of the country and it was California cuz there was a much Freer attitude much Freer aspect in the back of the East everybody always ask Challenger with why? Why why why do you do this? Why do you do that? And and if you've failed and something you were done for but in the west and tired the attitude was entirely different what the question was, why not and if you're full of fell on your backside doing some picked it up and do something else again, and that was very refreshing. Very interesting.

14:32 That worked itself out in terms of my career. We're all of which was in the publishing is not work for one company for 40 years the same company with no that's on her. But at that time beginning in the 1920s 30s. I had to be loyal to one company if you wanted to progressed. So mine was a rather unusual look at it went over several generational changes to stay with one company. Ironic part was the company. I was born and raised in Philadelphia and a company. I went to work for him at the other end of the company country was two miles from where I was born first famous Publishers mostly in the automotive in the business magazine in the street and to this day. I have a hard time explaining to people with Chilton company did but it

15:32 Seven-year-old it was impossible and that's what we did special interest magazines related to business the automotive the aviation the food processing that your retail fields of jewelry and shoes and of the funky old magazines we had was with Boot & Shoe recorder and I was of a magazine intended for the education and interests of the family-run trusource. Will there aren't any family runs through stores anymore and it has several of the other magazines that disappeared from view that came in with the electric.

16:29 Technology age Electronics magazine Cerritos College. Explain Girard College

16:42 Start a little bit before that. I was born in Philadelphia and again the first six and a half years of my life were absolutely idyllic. Anybody who was lucky enough to be born facing or on the fringes of Fairmount Park that you were born in what year in 1921 the Fairmont Park is I believe the largest Municipal Park in the country. It was you just huge bordered on the Schuylkill River one part of it. We lived in the western corner of it, and it was just absolutely I do it.

17:28 There were Monument server museums. There was a San Francisco type of cable car that ran around the park and I just went to the corner and there was a station for they call it the toonerville trolley and as a kid that you know, what could have been more delightful I getting on that little rattling thing and going quite a long distance into the park and Back Again.

18:00 Catching fireflies finding a Adele nearby with a a spring floor room drinking water all of this brown to run and Tumble and play with which absolutely wonderful but it came to a halt when my father died when I was six and a half and the mother and I were left with nothing and move back to New York to wear mother's first family is established.

18:34 That that that was kind of a difficult situation for another year-and-a-half because my mother's first family had children who were my age and older.

18:48 And I was out of sync in this social situation family situation. And I remember my nephew's who were one and two years old. Then I was teasing me and always introducing me as their kid. Oncol that was enough to drive me out to begin with in any event. What do you do with this? You know this

19:12 Oddkidout and they found won't send them off to school somewhere and they found a place in Philadelphia back in Philadelphia called Girard College gir and its founder was a man Steven Gerrard. Who was the young man from from France went to see very quickly became a master of his own ship and ran the British blockade of the Delaware River. Oh wow and settled himself in Philadelphia and became very famous and very rich Banker Merchant Mariner and philanthropist.

19:55 When he died, he had probably the biggest fortune on the country at the time. You're thinking 18217 70s 80s 90s and when he died in 1832 Fortune of 7 million dollars, then most all of it went to Charities once or another major one was Warren Buffett of its time exactly is a major one of it was money for the establishment of the school for boys in Florida for white fatherless. Boy. Yes and Lydia indication with poor white fatherless boys rights and this was in the image of what he was looking for in children. He never had children his wife spent her life in an insane asylum and he want to do with rescuing young man and give them a chance in life to

20:55 Enjoy what he enjoyed and so we establish the school for boys totally the total scholarship. It's you when you went into the school and got housing of food up fantastic education to highest level type education and you live in the school was your home so much so that

21:24 The existing parent or responsibility for the child, LOL indentured the boys to the school the school became our legal guardian. I remember coming across the papers someplace. We have them the papers that that your mom had to sign and basically giving you to the school at my I just couldn't imagine I could not imagine doing that. Well when you think about it when I was there, which was in the 1929 to 1939. It was it's now known as The Golden Era of the school or the depression to the front front pages 2/6 and 1819. There were 1600 of us. Okay. How do you keep control of 1600 kids if you don't have legal authority to order them around and that was the basis for the indenture.

22:24 Aspect of it but for the most part that didn't impinged life was very active. They're full programs of of Athletics and educational activities and Gerard's idea was to see that each kid that graduated from the school was equipped with some skill. So that the moment he left the school it would be could become self-sufficient. And what was one of the skills that you got from that school shorthand and typing something in just a few years later. I figured probably save my life. So amazing experience. I've also heard over the years did

23:15 Whatever. I became was it because of the school or

23:23 Or it's in spite of it in spite of the school. I'm not expressing that.

23:35 That's the very first day.

23:39 Are rumors of my my mother got me up in Brooklyn about 6 in the morning dressed me in my best clothes and we both got on the train to Philadelphia and our first sight of the school was of this enormous Acropolis in it. And if there was anything there that could have been awesome to wear to an eight-year-old. It was that this thing that building adult absolutely all of the other buildings that were around it was a beautiful campus very classic buildings in it and we marched down to the appropriate to place with the with about a hundred and twenty other mothers leaving their kids behind and went through all of the activity of getting our new clothes.

24:34 Asia

24:37 A leftover from the Victorian era was that each newbie was had his head completely shaved and we were dressed in the school closing which wasn't exactly a uniform but because of the uniformity of the clothes it became of uniform and it was black ankle brogues with with the corpse for retiring tall black stockings above the knees knickers above the knees a jacket for button shirt tie color with a collar button and that was the movie. Do you remember what to do? You remember like what your mom said or was she knows how she was feeling?

25:29 I can only imagine what she and will the other mothers were feeling.

25:34 It could not have been easy for them. If I got one of the graduates wrote a book about that very yet aspect of it. I was pretty hard run it. Did you did you feel that from her or

25:47 A bit. Yes. Yes. I saw I was aware of that. But mostly I was trying to figure out you know, where am I? Why am I here? What's the score all about? And it was all pretty please pretty strange on the scary scary scary from the warmth of a family situation to suddenly find yourself with 1600 other boys is a pretty wrenching experience, but the very quickly you got adjusted to it what you did learn was certainly your home.

26:26 How to support yourself useful life lessons that came from it let alone then probably would education that the school provided Us and how did being at Girard and so you stayed there from 8 until 18, right? So how did being at Girard effect?

26:52 Or make you think about how you wanted to be a parent.

26:55 I wanted to be a parent to parent. Yeah. Well, I certainly wasn't thinking about being a parent that that too but what it did do at the end of the year the 10 or 12 years of experience are on graduation.

27:11 It established the ethical and moral standards.

27:18 Which one of the highest?

27:20 By which I tried to live my locs.

27:23 And I'm forever grateful for that because the standards were very high and in all those other times in my life when I haven't lived up to the hoop am for all of that, but I've always known what I should do. And what was right and what was wrong at the continually strive to achieve those those balls from the school. That was the greatest lesson of it all as far as what that meant to the rest of my life. Now when you know, you look knock over almost a hundred years of it. The importances is philosophic conclusion. You come to is that

28:10 It's not what you have. It's who you are.

28:15 How would you describe Who You Are?

28:18 I say very ordinary guy who lived in very extraordinary times. I look at the almost a hundred years in which I've lived. I think it was probably one of the most dynamic hundred years in the in the history of the world here. We were in 1921 just recovering from a World War ended in what 1919 18 or 19?

28:47 It was the year of the horse and buggy was still in use delivering ice delivering produce to the neighborhood. The rag man came with a horse and buggy and it was the beginning of the automotive industry the beginnings of the aviation industry then Along Comes World War II.

29:12 And the enormity of it is what has struck me since then I spent a lot of time in retirement researching and looking and when we were kids you never never talked about your experiences. It was just it was like this little box that nobody was supposed to ask anything about and you shouldn't sent it off and it's just recently that you started really researching at white wine during When We Were Young was at so so blocked off because we came back from a war as as most soldiers do from any worth. The first thing you want to do is forget about it and get on with your life. And so getting on with my life meant family career and I had no time to think about what was in the past. I didn't want to think about it. Anyhow, okay and retirement.

30:03 I had time and I began to wonder why was I where I was who made the decisions what was going on in the bigger scheme of things. I was busy doing my own job in the Army trying to stay out of Harm's Way, but I know there was something else but what struck me was the enormity of that activity in terms of just playing numbers 16 million Americans in uniform 6 million people murdered in gas Chambers, simply the enormity of that that that struck me. So I wanted to know more about the parts and pieces in the people involved. I think I've read everything that's been written about the Churchill and Roosevelt and their relationship and all the other names of the that's been a fascinating study. You didn't you didn't actually see any

31:03 Concentration camps. Well, you know the order was out from our record Commander. The general Middleton is very unusual scholar and stuff University Professor who gave an order to the Troops that anybody who had who was not on duty and there was an army vehicle available to go to the concentration camps and see what it was. I didn't get that chance to do that, but I was right there as the guys who did go immediately came back. So I had pretty fresh. Or east of what that was about let alone the chaplain who came came to visit each of the divisions with his report on on it and it was Eisenhower. Also who said that this should be seen by all the troops in order for them to have a very simple answer to why they were there.

32:03 Do you worry that that that as as the greatest Generation starts passing that that that's her direct connection is going to get lost that visceral understanding of it. We all are tremendous said that the Tom Brokaw for establishing identifying the greatest Generation because it took some time for the take and now in these last what 5-10 years with with our group dying off at the rate of 5 and 600 a day. Oh finally these are beginning to understand that there was precious information there om, and it's beginning to come out of children grandchildren are digging into Grandpa's files and and the pulling out information let alone uniforms and

32:58 Trophies of war that they brought back and all of that information is valuable. So from that standpoint, there's been in the past I'd say 10 years much greater recognition of of the participation of the troops and not the time and I appreciate that in terms of family stuff. What's what's been your favorite part of our family of the warrants in the closest.

33:26 Because that's something I did not have a tirar with all of Girard College has advantages in the groin up 1600 boys are there was a yes to her governesses there were house masters. But when I Governors have to take care of 20 kids at a time there wasn't much room for individual and affection. So that whole time at the school that's what locked and that's what made family so much more precious and see and that's why I got to be a natural part of you though whether you had it as a kid or not because that that flows from you just use you and Mom created that I knew how to do it whether you had it when you were a kid or not. You're probably quite true. My mother was a very very warm nurturing person and

34:21 Even and I got a lot of that from her horse. What do you think? How do you think your most liked your mom? How do you think your most liked your mom?

34:34 The nurturing aspect of things help people grow.

34:41 Don't don't be critical all the time. You may not think so.

34:53 No.

34:59 It's just that that idea that I choose to look for the good in people even those that I know or are pretty bad or not up to it somewhere in there. There's a kernel of goodness and I choose to look for that. You want to look for connections making making connections between people making friends all around the world and keeping in touch with him that's been one of the great parts of retirement when I write the book it's going to be called. Lucky Mig and here I am lucky 27 years of retirement and I

35:46 Are friends all over the world keep up with them? It's it's a joy and and you also but you also connect them with each other and why is that why is that so important to you?

36:01 Again that goes back to Girard College because you tried to get as many friends as you could to wear to be your support.

36:17 Create a temple video of getting people together is always been a joy. It was very helpful in the in the working years to but I was able to find people and put them together for for good purposes from a career standpoint and there were no I had my my core of the trainees and the

36:44 Protege, I hope to develop who moved to migrate the pleasure found their positions in management in the publishing industry in their time and they keep in touch and that's for a year. So heartwarming with the totally selfish questions on my part. What do you remember most? What do you remember me being like when I was really little when you were a little yeah.

37:13 If you were that curly-haired little sweet darling, you're the most lovable kids.

37:24 I learned it from you. I learned it from you and Mom and how about David? What was David like?

37:34 It was it was more of a gung-ho type. He was he wanted to be out doing things and his bike rides around the city that were typical of his desire to learn and absorb information was mind-boggling to me the rate at which he did it didn't you know out of the UCLA at the what was he sick 6:16 1117 out of law school at age 2005 just absolutely mind-boggling by this kind of metal absorbs and with them different personality from you, but put together your two of the greatest kids look at night. Yeah, absolutely lucky us to

38:34 What was the favorite trip we went on his kids?

38:38 What was the trip you remember most the ones of the Grand Canyon camping trip a sort of camping trip with one of the other things. I swore when I left the Army was never ever again in my life. Would I sleep on the ground? Well as the trip turned out we have a little tent if you remember him or tried sleeping on the ground 9 of 14 nights in hotels. Yeah, right. But it was a marvelous trip artery called when you went to a lot of places in Colorado to the Grand Canyon for me as well. As for the two of you do you feel like there's anything you haven't done yet that you want to do.

39:35 Essentially. No, I think I've had a very full interesting life. I've done things. I never would have imagined that I would have done that the take up that absorb that the thought not the least of which was a whole Italian Adventure, you know, the 27 years of my retirement 25 years of it have been spent with a couple of months in Italy every year in Florence area. And that's that's in a very fulfilling satisfying activity acquiring Italian families as part of our family learning about art history food. And and all I know is that there is not enough time left in life to drink all the counties that should be drunk and that is probably the perfect place. I love you Daddy.