Fred Davis and Pamela Vickers

00:04 My name is Pamela Rosa. Scott Vickers. I am 66 years old today is October 21st, 2014. We are in Tulsa, Oklahoma and I am with my Uncle Fred.

00:24 And my name is Frederick Douglass Davis Senior. I was born August 6th 1935. Which mean I'm 79 years old. It's October 21st, Tulsa, Oklahoma.

00:38 And I am enjoying this opportunity to be with my niece to share with her the thoughts of life.

00:46 And it is my pleasure Uncle Fred, you know, I think about those times when we've had similar things at the house, you know, during the holiday and one that we listen to not too long ago. I think it was recorded at Mother's house. It was a New Year's Eve and it was what 19 around 1981 or two. And that was the one we wanted to put on a CD, but we weren't able to get it transferred to CD. So this is another opportunity to hear so much of what you've experienced and you know the first thing I want to ask you about.

01:34 Since you the Lord has allowed you to be here to see the first African American president.

01:43 What was it like for you that day when he want President Barack Obama?

01:51 I think it was.

01:54 A column

01:57 It was like The Birth of a Nation.

02:02 I remember.

02:04 Maybe in the

02:07 Fathers

02:10 In talkin to Elders in the community like judge Amos T Hall at the time was suggesting attorney and talkin to Thurgood. Marshall was a good friend of Amos, and they was talking about

02:27 Will we ever?

02:29 Get past some of the trials and tribulations that we was having in Tulsa at the time and it was because nobody had ever been able to overcome.

02:42 1921 race riots in terms of rebuilding and when I saw that that night and I saw that I'm saying to myself.

02:54 We did.

02:56 Arrived at a point, but we have not accomplished a point now that may sound strange but in my judgment we reached the point of of selection of a person who was

03:14 Gifted

03:17 To give a a sight tube a sight tube the world but not to those in the world.

03:28 And and a sew-in in the joy of saying this is good. I also had the jar of sand we haven't arrived.

03:39 Because the election of one man

03:43 Is similar to

03:45 The creation of I have a dream.

03:50 The dream is there and you can have it but the realization of that dream have not brought forth yet and the same thing with with President Obama. I felt good as a black man to know that he got elected to know that America said, okay, we going to give you a chance, but we did not accomplish.

04:15 That which I thought we should have topless and in the past seven years. It's proven to be fact that we have not accomplished it because this president have had more threats than any president in the history of our country. Not only that we have lost more ground in the Civil Rights Movement. Then we level off with a white brother. So I have some serious doubts as to where we are in ONN

04:51 It's complicated, but when you really stop and think about it.

04:56 Ask yourself. Why did they do that? Well, if I know that that sounds so profound the way you're saying it and I think I understand what you're saying. But I know you've been involved in these kinds of arenas for a long time am or so before your retirement. So if if that's the case then and we've lost ground. What is it that we did not do?

05:30 I think one of the things

05:33 I was for a long time present n-double-acp here Not only was I present n-double-acp. I was chairman of the war on poverty in Tulsa for 8 years. I was on the national board of directors of the Warren property out of Washington DC under her for 10 years. I was chairman of the Regional Housing Authority for for her on the neighborhood reinvestment. So I've been through a lot of doors. I had the privilege of serving in the end of the ICP on a time and place committee and I had the privilege of meeting.

06:15 Probably four presidents as they came to speak at that convention. I've seen the picture but when you when you talk about what happened?

06:26 It's like

06:28 Everybody is everybody appreciate.

06:32 Jackie Robinson everybody appreciates Jackie Robinson

06:37 But nobody appreciate Jackie Robinson to the extent that its own team is owned by black people. Jackie Robinson played a lot of ball. And if you look at the few look at the register throughout baseball today, you will find that better than 75% of all players apply.

06:55 But they don't know nothing.

06:57 So when when we talk about is it enough to be put in the room?

07:04 Is it enough to have ownership when you get in the room?

07:08 And that's what I think we're missing. I know for a fact that the n-double-acp years ago. Remember that they made a mistake in asking for the segregation and integration of the schools to the extent that and what about when a board meeting they asked me to discuss. Why did we do that? Cuz I was a mistake we had at that time in Tulsa before this. We had the best quality of peaches in the black community. Most of them had a master degree as soon as integration came in they moved the teacher with the master degree outside and move the dumbest, Illinois. What side of town that's the fact of life when that happened.

08:02 All kids start going down the hill in terms of commitment because

08:10 Before then the school teacher maybe the Sunday school teacher or the principal maybe the dick or the music teacher, maybe the choir director in the church. So if all of you is a part of the community then is pretty hard for you to cut a person out of your life when you see them in your life and they even say quite often that we through integration.

08:46 Separated ourselves from all communities by

08:53 Moving top back yard off of our front porch. It was a time when I'll Community was closer because at 5 in the evening up 5:30 in rustic Hair by be in the front yard, but Jones is coming home from the south are. Mr. Jones is coming home from cutting yard with somebody. Are you coming home from waiting table but everybody speak so when we got integrated everybody move to the patio, so nobody talked to the office so you don't know where Miss Jones coming home. You don't know when mr. Jones so when you came home, you didn't see nobody they didn't see you. So what no kidding with you so I know this is

09:39 This is counter.

09:41 Hard to comprehend, but if you live long enough

09:48 You begin to understand?

09:52 The fruits of your labor is not necessarily the rewards of your life that now that was really a really profound statement the fruits of your labor are not necessarily the rewards of your life. And as you mentioned community and you mentioned ownership, so I'm going to go back to those two words because your life in this community, even though you traveled everywhere nationally internationally as as we think about this community you

10:34 Head ownership in this community through several Endeavors. Can you tell us about those and and I remember my dad was a bartender at one of them I had back in the

10:50 I got in the sixties. I own the club called Showboat.

10:55 And this was a time when?

10:59 Oklahoma was dry.

11:02 And you couldn't sell whiskey by the drink.

11:07 But the country clubs could sell it. So if the country club could sell it.

11:14 I said to the chief of police at that time, which was Dave Faulkner day father was a sheriff.

11:23 The chief of police

11:26 I'll think of his name in a minute, but I said to him explain something to me.

11:32 You guys can go to the Tulsa club and y'all can have drinks.

11:38 We can serve you at the Tulsa club and ain't nobody going to jail.

11:44 But when we come out for that job and come back to our community.

11:48 What do we do?

11:54 He said

11:57 I never thought about it like that for real. I said what think about it.

12:01 We don't have country clubs.

12:05 Wait, we got we got weight of that wait for y'all on at the Country Club, but when they come home, they got to buy my half prank.

12:15 And they got to sit down someplace like the Big L and how they look girlfriend or wife to come out there and have Jesse or somebody cook my chicken. I'll cook a mistake and then you going to come in there and you going to arrest them for selling whiskey across the bar.

12:35 But they got no choice I said, so think about this.

12:41 If you work all day to serve whiskey.

12:47 And then when you get off of work your feet hurt, you want to go somewhere where you can sit down and relax with your wife or your girlfriend. Have you a drank? Have you something to eat?

13:00 And you going to get put in jail for doing that I said y'all need to understand that all that trying to do is have their own country club.

13:10 They trying to have a country club like you got one. So when I told him that he said what what do you suggest for it? I said well.

13:20 I'm going to have a country club and charge $2 membership. So it's a private club. So I charged $2 membership. So if I bought you a $2 membership everybody, so when you come in there, everybody got a membership card. So if everybody got a membership card, I ain't selling no bad whiskey I'm selling to my members and I had no idea that that's that's how you did it. It reminds me of what I've heard. You know, you you when you learn the rules then they change the rules and I don't know if the rules change but you you were able to play that game for one of us a different term. But I do remember it was a very nice club at the corner of Cincinnati and Pine Street, and I guess I was of age at that time because I had a chance to go in.

14:20 And it was such a nice place and I like I said, I remember my daddy was one of your bartenders and I think he enjoyed that. Well we serve which we serve it up for class cuz they was your day cuz they was all members. They had to pay $2 and it is so funny because

14:48 At that time to you had

14:51 A lot of black basketball player herb Colin was one of them died. But but her calling with one and I can't really think of none of the other guy's name, but it was so ironic because they've called me uncle Fred so what they would do is they drain a little girlfriend to showboat.

15:14 So they could have them a party. I have to sponsor part of that kind of money, but they didn't have to worry about going to jail because it was a private jet membership. It was it's just it's how do you take a given situation and figure out how to do something about it? And that's what I did. All right. Well, you know, I know that was not your only

15:48 Endeavor there that was not your only Endeavor and ownership off entrepreneurship you have done some other things to do that were unique in the community of first in the community. So I'm thinking of the Sunset Apartments.

16:14 So tell tell me about that well.

16:19 What happened is where we are right now?

16:24 All of these building in this area

16:27 What's on by Sand Springs Railroad?

16:32 Which was a sprains bots on which was all put together by Charles Page. He owns all this property through here. Well, there was a guy named the Johnson who was chairman us a spring Railroad Company.

16:49 And at the time I was chairman of the war on poverty, so we met some time in Tulsa. We met sometime in Sand Spring one particular meeting. We had in Sand Spring the board of directors.

17:04 The next day or what? I worked at McDonald Douglas the next day. I got a call at Douglas from Mister Johnson.

17:13 And I said, I don't know you he said I know you don't but I know you and he told me who he was and he asked me if I would come to his office that evening inside spray and meet with him. He had an issue. He's like to talk to me about so I told him okay, so I went to Sand Springs.

17:37 Toyota office, and he said Brother David said you don't know me but I've been watching you for the past few years and your community and with different boys listen to what some of the stuff you said. And if you don't mind I'd like to share this with you. So I said, okay. He said you have one major problem. Is it? Okay. What is that? He said you're broke.

18:06 He said and broke people just don't attract.

18:11 Good thanking people for their side. He said no, no, nothing. No root, no bad reflection on you. It's just that's the way life is he said but what I would like to do

18:25 Is I have some property.

18:28 Out at 36th Street north in Hartford and Harvard. He said I have

18:38 25 acres of land out there

18:41 He said and what I'd like to do.

18:44 It's sell that 25 acres of land to you.

18:48 He said I want.

18:50 1000 hours later he said but what I'm prepared to do it let you buy.

18:58 Give you.

19:02 6 months

19:05 To make 10% down payment

19:08 And then pay 10% once a year.

19:12 With no interest he said and what you can do with that.

19:18 Is You Oughta be able to?

19:21 Progress. Into moving it one way or the other where you could get a foundation or some money coming in at that's that that will help you get out of your pocket. He said I know you know Roy Gardner and Roy Gardner at the time was the director of Hud here in Tulsa. He said then why don't you talk to Roy?

19:47 So I said, okay well.

19:50 I told my daughter I just don't have no money. So I know that but we'll get there make a long story short. I talk to my brothers about it and they said Fred we don't have no money. How you going by that man profited. You ain't got no mouth. I don't know. He said well if you if you don't have no money, how you going to do up there with you like everybody else if I don't get the money, I just give it ain't no big deal.

20:17 So they said no make a long story short. I found another person that said yeah, so I went to Royal Garden.

20:26 And I said Roy.

20:28 I got 25 acres of land.

20:32 And I told her where it was. I said that I really think I'd like to build some apartment, but I want to build some market-rate apartment. Cuz all we got is subsidized housing at their he said, you know, that's a good idea for you. He said but let me think about this. So Roy.

20:54 At that time Bible of Fortune was America.

20:57 So Roy got with Bob lafortune.

21:01 And then he got back with me in about 30 days. He's a prayer they would we going to do.

21:08 If you will allow us.

21:12 Tip to toe

21:16 Bill some apartments right there where sunsets are not right on he said own independent and Cincinnati.

21:26 He said I know it's property. There's houses there and all that seven. Don't worry about that. He said but if you if you will let us let you build one there.

21:37 Then when we get that and Bill then I'll let you build one out there where you want to he said, but I work it out and I can help you fill out your paperwork and what we can do is weekend then get

21:54 The money out of her well, Roy also knew.

21:59 That I knew Patricia Harris who was a suck their Hood at the time.

22:05 So you got political power you just don't know it. So make a long story short.

22:15 He and NN Bob lafortune did the paperwork so we could get all that land that brought it up on Mile said it's a lot faster and it was due and then I went to watch the guy with Patricia hair and got Section 8.

22:33 And I was able to borrow 8 and 1/2 million dollars.

22:36 And we built them.

22:39 That's what we did. All right, but, you know sometime friendship.

22:46 Don't match.

22:49 Relationships and that friendship went bad. So are you involved with sunset today?

22:59 No, okay. No, I'm not involved with sometimes it become apart of OSU Tulsa. They have not they have not made an offer on it. They've acquired about it the partnership dissolved the guy who owns it. Now who's ahead who who manager now is named elzie higginbottom and he lives in Chicago. It is

23:25 A very wealthy black men eat as probably

23:29 20000 units in Chicago, so he's not worried about somebody being able to cross him out of the Bush your mouth cuz he don't have to sell. He ain't broke, you know, and he's not going to get Pocono Times, but I talked to Althea Helder remind me that.

23:46 Because of me he's in it and whenever something happen I'll be taken care of. So I just leave it alone. So.

23:56 Community to do exactly Section 8 is a subsidized housing that allows HUD to give you money for rent if the if the rent was

24:11 The rent was 600 a month Section 8 May pay 340. Okay. So all right. I've heard of Section 8 but as you talk about this and you think about how it all transpired and and the status of this now I just want to say would you remember your niece to when brother heckenbach takes care of you? I think I think the whole face. I think the whole thing is so ironic that you said that because me and your mother laugh about this, which is my only sister that slept but we laugh about this all the time because what happened is when my father died

24:58 In early forties

25:01 My mother set me and my two brothers died and she said to us D. I was gone.

25:10 And I want you boys to know that I've asked God to not let y'all be profitable in gambling. She said so I might as well let y'all know you might as well not try because God I've asked him not to let gambling be a part of your life. That's. And

25:34 Alma and James understood Fred didn't always tried to get out, but I know.

25:46 I never could win.

25:49 I could bet a dollar 10. I'm going to download jacket John and shoot dice. I bet a Dollar 10th and hit everybody better on me. Cuz they said Little David is going to hit Butler Davis ain't no bet no money. So I'd better dollar then. So if I want $2 if I take a dollar down, so I'll leave a dollar I get through shooting. I got $8. Somebody else may have $800. I don't want off of me but I ain't got nothing cuz I ain't got no, but I know I could do that. I used to say to myself if I was a better than training and it be a hundred degrees out there. It's. Right before I got it out of my mind. So I thought I don't I got the place. I don't play the lottery cuz mother prayers are still running around there that Uncle Fred but I always saw you as a risk-taker now, do you see those as the same thing or different? It's taking Mother prayers.

26:49 I ain't arguing with God. Okay. Alright. Well, I know you did that and then more recently than the showboat lounge and and Sunset Plaza you had another kind of business that was in Sand Springs. Yes. And and how did you acquire the materials? Well in 1992 number one, I worked at Douglas 40 years for the straight years and

27:31 I was

27:33 Pamela constitutional convention delegates commitment

27:40 And I was over transportation.

27:43 So

27:44 When a plant got ready to close in 92-93

27:51 They said they was auction off the plant. So I'm saying okay. Well, I knew where stuff was.

27:59 So I said okay going to the auction. Well, I went to the auction.

28:05 I had no intention of spending $35,000 but I did I bought $35,000 worth of stuff all over. I know one time. I bought a hundred computers for a dollar piece. Oh my goodness, and I bought in a airplane in the bathroom. There is a frost-free mirror and I know how expensive they was for us. So I bought all of the mirrors left.

28:37 Cuz I'm sad I can sell it to you couldn't cut them. You can cut the mirrors, but you can bend them and you anyway, I bought all of that then I bought I bought all kind my lights and I bought I mean I bought all kinds of stuff. I bought chairs and I bought about $35,000 worth of stuff. So when I did I have to find a place to put it so that's why this area right here where we are on on Brady was so familiar with me because

29:11 Sand Springs home on all of this property and they start converting it to different people now, but they owned it and I came down here looking to rent some property to put my put my retail store yet. But the rent was too high so the lady told me she said well, I got a place over in Sand Spring that's about to $300 less a month. If you want to look at it. So true enough. I went over and looked at it and I was 500 a month.

29:39 So I was saying okay. That's my by so I bought that I mean I didn't buy it. I rented it and I stayed over there for a year, but but it it it was really too expensive because at the first of the month

29:56 My debt without doing anything was $800. When you take the rent that utilities all of that. It was going to cost me $800. So I have to make more than $800 to break even alright, so I couldn't always do that. So I decided after year.

30:18 I got to let this come just let it go. So that's what I did. How did you dissolve it?

30:24 That were you able to sell it so.

30:28 I sold the computers to a man for

30:33 $0.75 apiece and

30:42 I saw the lights.

30:45 Fluorescent lights that sell them for a dollar and a quarter piece.

30:50 Heading in

30:56 I had some more stuff out of Ghana.

31:00 Just kind of got rid of it and got rid of it. Yeah, I got rid of it. So I wouldn't have to be bothered with it. Okay. Okay. And so now are you living a leisurely life? Would you describe it as leisurely?

31:22 That's what I was saying I have.

31:26 I have COPD.

31:29 Which is a respiratory breathing problem because I smoke cigars all my life and I in Elder I did but I stopped smoking 25 years ago, but I start it. It's affecting me here lately. So I went to the doctor and the doctor said Wilfred you got COPD we can kill it, but we can treat it. And if you do what we say, you can live comfortable with it. So I said, okay so he gave me a regiment and the regiment is to

32:03 Take a breathing treatment.

32:07 I take one I'm supposed to take one every 12 hours sometime. It ends up being 14 hours, but I usually get up at 6 in the morning and I'll take a breathing treatment. I have three different medicine. I put in a breathing machine and I'll take that and then I usually get up make coffee drink coffee and maybe buy some I'll fix some for breakfast and by 8:30 time it take a nap. So I'll go in the living room. I let my wife stay in the bedroom. I close the door. So I won't disturb her and I'll go in the living room and I'll take me a nap. Okay, then I'll get up there and watch the new news.

32:52 And maybe decide then what we going to have for dinner. And if I have to dinner if I can't find it. I'll just get some out the freezing cook it but that's what I do. But it it it's a good life. It's it's one that I enjoy. I don't I've never been bored with me. Okay. I'm bored with me and I don't have to I don't have to have nobody to make me happy and I may go Outdoors. I'm going to go out there was in the morning get the newspaper.

33:30 But I don't promise nobody going back out to us that day for nothing cuz I don't need to wear that that's right in keeping with our friend that I've always known. I've always seen you as one with a made up mind. So to speak you made up your mind and and this this was the path you were going to go whatever that might have been and you always had words of wisdom cuz I certainly remember the time when I thought I was going to drop out of college and get married. I was determined but between Dallas and Tulsa you gave me a good talkin to not fussing but you were sharing the wisdom that comes from living and wisdom that comes from being able to understand what can happen and I'm so glad that we had that that conversation and that I stayed in school and I appreciate the support. You've always given me and the conversations that we've had about it.

34:30 Education in various things and that you know, as we come to the end of of this great discussion, we're having I just wonder two things two things what?

34:49 What disappoints you I I think some of what you said about this ten-year-old Barack Obama and some of what is disappointed you but but as it relates to our our city Tulsa where we live and where we have our children and and our lives continue what disappoints you and then what encourages you about this city what disappoints you and what encourages you

35:22 I think

35:26 I think that when I talked about

35:29 The disappointments

35:32 Is where

35:36 You grow up in a place.

35:39 If you look at this room and you look at the ceiling you look at all those different boards.

35:46 You look at all those boys and you say to yourself.

35:49 All of it good

35:52 But one type is another when I look at my community, there isn't a second generation doing anything in this community. Disappointment. The only second generation that still in existence in this community is Jack memory Chapel. That's the only one there is nothing else. But what encouraged me is when I see the young people in the school system now where they put in young principal young women principal in queue position like it carbon at Booker T. What I'm hoping for is that someone will move into the educational center because the Youth of today has a vision of tomorrow that we older people can't even see

36:41 All right. That is something that I can hold onto with the young children that I love my grandchildren. And of course you have young grandchildren that you hope for the best for so one other question. I will ask you when you give me a name or two. If you could call back many of the great people you've known in your life.

37:09 To to have a conversation with who would you call back? Who would you want to sit with right now and talk to two people?

37:20 Amos T Hall and Thurgood Marshall and who were they in Thorogood Marshall was the first black member of the Supreme Court, but he was also the founder of illegal defense department for the n-double-acp, but he was also a attorney was he was the first

37:43 President Johnson solicitor general and Amos Hall was a man came from the streets of Tulsa who went to law school through the mail, but became a president judge in Tulsa Tulsa County courthouse and was The Sovereign Grand Commander Prince Hall Masons for 35 years. All right. Well with those two names, I'm going to put them up there with yours Amos T Hall Thurgood Marshall and Frederick Douglass Davis Senior. Thank you. Thank you Uncle Fred. Yeah.