Joshua Gardner and Shawsheen John

00:04 Hello, my name is Joshua Gardner. I am 27 years old today's date is July 22nd, 2015. I am at the Ute tribe education department in Fort Duchesne, Utah, and my partner's relationship to me is she's my big sister.

00:23 My name is Shawsheen Gardener John. I am 30 years old. Today's date is July 22nd 2015. I'm at the U Education Center in Fort Duchesne, Utah, and this is my little brother.

00:45 I really like so.

00:48 Where would you like to begin? I guess I just want to like start with kind of a background of who we are. You know, we we grew up on the UN Tandoori reservation right here in Utah. I mean just growing up here has been a really interesting experience for us specifically because you know, cuz of our our our background who our parents are all my father is a full blood Native American from the Indian tribe here, but my mother is Caucasian she's white and so with just that element there, there's been a lot of different things that have happened to us over the years, you know, not so good and then, you know course there's been good things and I'll go down. We just kind of wanted to kind of discuss how we grew up in. You know, if she's Universe has any questions for me. I'm eager to answer them. But I think the first one first thing I wanted to share was acting like my first memory and it's out of my mother, you know, cuz I love my mom. She's an amazing woman, you know when she's been to so many different things and in her life, and she was able to two

01:48 Take those experiences in and help us through our our struggles. But my first memory actually happened when I actually don't remember how old I was. I just remember it was she used to wash in the sink when we're really really little and I'm I just remember my very first memory was the sunlight would come through the window and it was a really was just I loved it. There was a feeling of the the brightness was just one of those things that I just said, I can't forget and I still remember to this day but also once you wash as she would always massager car head, you know, she's always take the cup and she poured the water onto our head and then she would massage your head into this day. She's the only one that can actually touch my head. I have a pet peeve about people touching me on the top of the list I snap at people but my mom she's she don't care, you know, she knows that but

02:42 And when did you remember this memory? I should just remembered it about a year ago this memory just happened. It just kind of came to me one day. I just I think it was the light came through the window. Then the exact same manner and I just I just kind of came to me. Can I get a quick memory? I remember when it when you actually remember that cuz I was giving a bath to my little girl. She was only 3 months old and shoes in the sink and I was doing the same thing and you like oh my gosh, I remember this and it was you like at the light and everything getting her it was really cold cuz I was like because the first memory know our first memories are very important now.

03:20 Also during that memory. I do remember a stretch my feet acrost in touch my toes and trying to grab my toes on the edge, you know and stuff like that when I was able to stretch them all the way across like I just remember the feeling of of accomplishment, you know, that's not a good thing kids want something else is so significant about that memory is just a feeling that I had in, you know, I've always tried to grasp that feeling and everything I do now to this day since I've remembered the memory, of course, but you know, it's one of those memories. I really kind of make me who I am in those things but I'm something that we will I wanted to talk about was just some of the hardship we had as as young people on the reservation being mixed blood, you know, everyone has struggles, but I think some of the ones that we had

04:08 Where are you know, we would being mixed blood our mother being white. A lot of people were not accepting of that on the reservation. What was the first thing that you remember actually realizing that you were mixed. I remember was when we were really really young. You know, my father always wanted us to be proud of who we were but he was also very worried about what other people would do to us because of that, you know, because there was a lot of aggressive mean people and he honestly my sister my sisters and my brother they they went through a lot of abuse on the bus and different things and so me being the youngest he was really really worried about so I would have to meet because I wasn't as

04:49 Aggressive as my other siblings who can defend themselves as pretty complacent very quiet and somebody picked on me and not going to do anything about it. You could go get it later. But you know, I remember my dad always told me so, you know, don't let anybody know that you're you're half, you know, if anybody asks you your Native American, you know, and so it. But I remember the Point Elementary when I was really young one of my cousins start talking about how my mom is white and I just remember the the feeling of regret in the feeling of I was ashamed of who what I felt who I was you known as the very first in Saturday was the first first memory remember of of that, you know, I felt I felt bad that I was half and I was mixed and so, you know and I stuck with me for a long time it took me probably until College until I started except, you know, both sides of my ethnicity. You know, when anybody ask me I was Native American if they saw my mom feel a little bit of

05:45 Shame, I guess the word would be a shame for who who she was, you know, I do love my mother, you know, but there was that underlying feeling of Shame and then no sadly it was because of, you know, my my father was trying to protect us in certain ways and protect me specifically because cuz of how aggressive some people can be just because of who you are your mom or your dad's our dad are in their ethnicity. So

06:10 But

06:13 Have any other questions?

06:20 Do you have any regrets regrets when I was younger very young, but I think my regrets come from like at the college level the things, you know, I did really well in high school, you know, being being a first-generation students from the reservation, you know, I was able to graduate high school. I got a I got a pretty much a full-ride scholarship from the Daniels fund organization in Denver Colorado there they were able to help me with paying for my schooling. And also I did really well up to high school once I got into college now things kind of changed a little bit, you know, I didn't work as hard. I didn't apply myself in in sometimes I get myself a little bit of an excuse because of

07:06 You know being a first-generation student, it's everything is new to me. Everything was new to my parents. Everything was new to my siblings. You know me being out in the world not on the reservation. It was very scary. And so with that, you know, I didn't take advantage of a lot of the opportunities that were available to me and I didn't listen to a lot of the things that's some of my professors were telling me to do. You know that I'm older I look back in like I hope that's what they meant. Oh, that's what they meant. Oh, I wish I would have took advantage of that. So I think that's probably the biggest regret. I had like probably one of the only regrets I have so

07:40 Good kind of go back a little bit now.

07:49 Going to get a little knitty gritty here. Did you ever hate me, I didn't like you but you were always protecting me to tell her I love my big brother would pick on me. And then or Diana or power big sister would pick on us all I'd have to do with iPad 2 screen Shawsheen and then you hear her footsteps through the house and then she just come in like body slam people. I really there was never a time when I did not like you really like there was a whole course, you know, there was we had our tips in our fights, but I've never I don't know you've always been there for me and you know, and I love you for it. So thank you and I'm so glad I was making a big sister feel good about their miles. I've never hated anyone agree with me and my other

08:49 Siblings Diana and Tyrell, we really pushed you to like not make the same mistakes as if you ever felt like it was just overwhelming at some time or overwhelming. I want to see the thing that I think it and I guess this would be another regret would be just how protected I was as a teenager as as a young person know you guys were always there later. I'll never let me do anything. And so when I guess one of my regrets was I didn't get his into as much trouble as I kind of wish I would have you know that I have those life experiences in certain situations, but if you look at it in the long term it really if it was it was it was for the better, but I kind of wished, you know, I could have gotten into made a few little mistakes as a teenager in and gone and got into a little bit of trouble you so I could add those experiences. So but again growing up where we grew up in a little bit different are very good kids all of us wear. Let's go back to like me.

09:49 I talked to more about your identity. What do you feel are give like 3 3 moments in your life, you know, I know that you're you're still young but so far that have helped shape your identity and who you are today.

10:06 3

10:07 Trying to get something when I was very young.

10:15 I think the events to do with us traveling. I mean it be more of a chain of events for when I was younger is least to do Native American shows throughout this a lot of the states. We've traveled to Texas San Antonio Stock Show and Rodeo. We did a lot of Performing therefore. I think we've performed there for about 4 years and 4 years in the fifth year. We were in Austin Texas at their Stock Show and Rodeo. Right there really shaped. I think shaved me as a young person to realize that there's more than then the reservation out there, you know, the world is vast huge and so are they kind of give me a little bit of it and idea that there was more more more than more than sticking around and then just hanging out on the reservation like a lot of others that are my age are doing second event. I would have to say it had to do with kind of sad or what he had to do with an accident. I was in my freshman year of college. I got in a car accident and the girl is driving with she passed away.

11:15 It really mess with me quite a bit. He knows I get it took me a long time still working on it to get through the emotional distress or whatever. You want to call it in and everything. It was a really really tough time and I can't believe I actually graduated college because of it, but I made it and I did it my 30 event. I think it's more current like my job currently is a, jaehwan mentor in tutor for Native American students on the reservation. I grew up on you. I'm pretty much just on my a role model T these young people, you know, mainly for high school students some I'm here to support them and help them and that's really help me look really kind of shape who I am in kind of made me realize what I want and how I want to help my own group of people, you know, and also how I how I think I want to live my life, you know, so I think those are the three events that I've really changed. I mean there's more but that thing cuz of the three significant ones that have really helped

12:15 Shape who I am still working on it, but he know.

12:23 I change me. Oh, let's see. So as a mentor, you know a lot of time to see it on very internal when I think about something I'm thinking about kind of how's it going to benefit me? But as a as a mentor tutor can't quite look at it like that, you know you start to I've started lately I start to look at how am I going to how's this going to benefit not only me but my my my community as well as the rest of society, you know his Native Americans, you know, a lot of times you're going to hear people say, oh, well, you know, they're not smart lot of generalized stereotypes, you know, you know, they're stupid. They're alcoholics. They're there now no good or whatever the case may be but there's so much uniqueness coming from any Native American person throughout the United States that you know, it's just it's just untappd untappd knowledge untappd group of people that can really bring a unique

13:17 Viewpoint to this to our society, you know, if people were to understand that, you know, just because we don't follow the exact same method, you know, they're still there still a lot of things that we know that people in the society don't you know, I like to look at look at the holistic movement in this in our United States. I mean a lot of it comes from Native Americans from a long time ago in a lot of the way people are trying to the paleo diet paleo me. Where do you think they got that from you know Native Americans? That's the way we ate a long time ago, you know Natural Foods we hunted we gathered that's what we did. You know, there's a lot of knowledge there and I just think because of the past events that are happening in no matter how he can be angry about everything but those it's the past and we just need to learn from it and and move from from from there now, it's just one of those things where

14:11 Now we just need to understand that just because our viewpoints not the same doesn't mean that we're inferior. You no end, trying to go back to the question the head as a mentor and I'll just going through all those things and I'm trying to understand all those Concepts, you know, it's helped me become much more rounded at in my knowledge base, you know coming from a college experience and as well as the reservation experience, you know, I'm trying to find a balance between everything the academic as well as the spiritual. I'm there's a lot of different balances in a lot of different things on there's a lot of taboos that as Native American that you know, as an as a educator as a person that comes from from the college level. Like I need to look at it logged more logically then then a lot of other people to fascist

15:01 It's a struggle. It's chaotic. I think it helped that makes more sense. And I think it does actually does what I was subbing for a year, but I got to send for his class. I get it every once while for his classroom. They use their they called me and Joshua old school.

15:20 And the reason why they call it the old school is because we believe in cemeteries a lot of the Traditions that we were taught and what are some of the Traditions that you get to talk to with your students about or some of the like Gail giving some of that knowledge. Then what are some of the things that you have talked about with your students issue that teach my students, you know, specifically are disrespect. I mean, I think that's it's it's a it's a general idea of respect. It's it's not that you know as Native Americans we are taught to respect our elders were taught to respect but I think it's any of anyone if somebody speaking to you listen to them if somebody is trying to teach you something listen to him. It's it's a very simple concept but it seems like some of our youth have forgotten that you know, they're so consumed with a lot of what is happening on their phones what is happening within at home or anything like that Woods like, you know, sometimes we got to be in the moment.

16:20 Has to do with just in general respect heading that's that's the basic thing. I want to come across with my students has you know, if we're speaking to you if your if your peers are speaking to you respect respect them. Listen to them even if you don't agree with what they have to say listen to him and respect with the actors to say, you know, and other things I try and teaches

16:43 Just a man just running through my head it would have to do with just knowledge. I mean I was growing up. We were my grandmother always taught us in my father was. It said, you know this because we're in school or work. We graduate high school doesn't mean that we stop learning. You know, what this world is about is about educating yourself. If you decide not to go to college that still doesn't mean you can become an educated individual, you know, and then I try and teach my students even if they College route is not the way they want to go. There's so many different have an especially in this day and age with technology like you can make money in every Avenue you can think of you know, whatever you want to do if there's there's nothing there's there's there's nothing to hold them back, you know, and I think that's one of the biggest things

17:31 None of that answers our question, but

17:35 Now I am I know this but not very many people know this. Are you in a rolled tribal member? I am not the northern Ute. Tribe there enroll their blood Quantum to be in role as a Utah northern Ute. Tribal number is 5/8. I am currently at 1/2 course if I can change but I'm at 1/2. So I was unable to be enrolled as he hear from you and all your childhood all the way up to now has that affected you motivated me. It's extremely you know, I don't get the same rights as someone who is Federer federally recognized as a tribal member that used to be a dividend. But now it's a it's a monthly amount of money that the tribe does give out. I don't get that other things that I don't get is I don't there certain Avenues. I can't go through but travel scholarships. I do not get I don't have hunting or

18:35 King writes on reservation land and then there's a lot of other things looks very small laws things like that. I don't I don't quite get to take advantage of there's also things. It's like I do make native american flutes in one of the things I did look up was for some reason I can't because I'm not a federally-recognized tribal member Native American. I cannot call them crafted by a Native American because I'm not federally recognized I have to say that they're influenced or inspired by Native American culture or something like that, you know, and that was a bit of a struggle when I was making flutes just cuz it has to do with more of an identity because it's telling that societies telling me that oil because I don't have this Blood Quantum. I'm not good enough to be federally recognized Native American and where did you learn to play the flute or make the flute my father that's actually how he or our father. That's how he he made a living. That's how he

19:35 Buy food on the table for us was we travel the nuggets before Native American Native American just dancing all performances and then my dad would travel the United States and play his flute and stuff supposedly knows from generation to generation and he's passed it down. So

19:56 Why is there anything else you want to add to the last question about being on Tribal member? There's a lot of other kids that that are my age that you know, they had the same opportunities in a lot of them had a lot more opportunities. You know, that's what you want to come to the funding for schooling and stuff. I had to find other avenues for forgetting my education paid for but it really really motivated me to do well in school because you know, I can't I can't really technically live on the reservation. I can own a home those going to think send those are things that I really would love to do a of course in my life. So but with that it's going to take a lot of hard work. You know, I have to work hard. I have to make my own money. I have to Aspire to be something and in the end in mode today at motivates me because I have a lot of students that are in the same situation as me in a lot of them are not tribal members saying I just hope that they can follow in my foot.

20:56 Apps and hopefully they can exceed my where I'm at, you know by my age. I hope that most of them are Beyond me and that's not something I Aspire for.

21:12 Timon Sheen here. I know you're on a roll and stuff was the other thing that you really wanted to talk about when you came came here. It was definitely as a Native American like identity like we have there always talking about how Native Americans have identity crisis Nagisa lemon Doterra mean I I did go to it as well. I mean not you know being being mixed blood as well or I'm being mix by Native American and you know not being a trial of being able to be a tribal member, you know, that really affected me as well at the college level is really didn't hit me until I was in college one, you know, you start to kind of dive into who you are, you know at that know when you're 18, 19 20 21 didn't really affect me till then, you know, I started kind of think about who I was and and I didn't really have an answer as to this day. I still trying to figure out who or what that answer is. I don't think I'll ever

22:12 Really Kevin doesn't answer his work on slate changing. But I mean the crisis was there, you know for the longest time. It was just like an emptiness that really affected me and you know, I would fall into a depression on top of you know, do you like I did mention the accident that I had before I started going through like anxiety. I have anxiety attacks like crazy crazy hallucinations because of because of anxiety and somebody took a lot in in in a really it was until I started really low diving into Native American literature in and really asking a lot more questions about who are my ancestors were that things started to become much more?

22:53 Concrete know who I am and where I come from and I think that was identity crisis. It comes to the point where you have to look look to your past not your own past, but your ancestry who were your ancestors, you know, it's like that and that's that's what really brought me out of of my crisis was was I started to understand that I started finding a lot of pride in who I was and who my ancestors were, you know, I'm proud to be Ute, but the other things I'm very proud to be the white. You know, what there's a lot of different changes are I'm and I'm just barely diving into that side. You know, I've just learned that we have Viking does weed ascendancy. We have Viking ancestors on our on our mother's side Africa that was from the northern part of Africa also, so, you know, so it means just that I think that's what is like, you know. I'm just saying who your ancestors are, you know, in in order the things that we were if we go back to you like teaching

23:54 One of the things that are dad always taught us, you know, when we pray when we pray to the Creator and I don't know if I'll Native Americans do this or whatever but us specifically when we pray we don't actually pray to the Creator and I've never really prayed to the Creator. I've always prayed to my ancestors have always ask them for strength, you know, you know, if I pray to the Creator it's easy to think or to 2 or if I'm in a really bad situation. That's when I do plead but that doesn't happen often. But usually it's it's I prayed of my ancestors cuz that's what the way we were taught. That's where our strength comes from. That's where our identity comes from, you know, and of course you and I hope that you know will pass that on to our children in and they'll be stronger than we are so

24:41 What was the moment that you realize that you weren't ashamed of our mother?

24:48 Back to that.

24:52 Who's that you see?

24:57 I know she looks just she just loves you, but I can't tell you an actual moment. But over time it is it's it's gotten better and better than it has to do with understanding who that's out of our family as you know, I would have come to to know our uncle pretty well. It's my favorite, but then I got to know our Aunt as well and we don't have a whole lot of connection with that side of the family, but just seeing who they are and I'm listening to the stories about mom when she was little, you know, how bullheaded she was and she would fight anybody that said try to mess with her just the way she is now she have protective but you know, it's

25:39 It's it's it had to do with how to do it like Paris about.

25:45 Current weather like a year or two ago. It didn't need some fairly recent really fairly recent because she know a lot of times I think as a young person you don't understand where your mother is coming from until you get older you don't start understanding like the the hardship that we went through as a young person, you know how it does. You don't realize that your holidays are not as good as they were when you were little like are you serious number the best Christmas ever got a little toy I bought that at the gas station. I was like, oh wow in Orange at the bottom of the stock dividend stocks still wear on your parents experiences from a whole new perspective because they're able to actually discuss it with you. You know what I think one of the other ones just like

26:43 You know holidays are always really really a hard time for our family. You know, I'm in summer time in my birthday runs right along in the summer. So I've had a lot more bad birthdays than I've had good birthdays, you know, and then there's been times when you know, I try not to act like things didn't affect me but they did, you know, my birthday is kind of a big deal for me. It really is and I get really bummed out when when I don't go to the way, you know, I think a birthday should you know in in in stomach. Just so you know, there was times when I remember what I don't even remember Mom and them are always tell me about the time where they celebrated my birthday like 2 weeks later and I had no idea. I remember that try not to say anything were helping. Nobody said anything at school. What day were you born June 19th? What day?

27:43 What was that though? Father's Day Father's Day Father's Day actually for me. I have to share this with you actually cuz I haven't really talked about it. But for me, it was high school when I realized it was high school when I realized I shouldn't be ashamed of my mom and it was because of our sister. She was saying all these awful things about Mom and making up all these lies and I was like standing there and she's telling her friends this and I'm like, wait a minute. She never did that. She's not like that. She is she's a good mom and she never laughs. You never hit us. She never there was a time sheet the broom. Well, that wasn't me that was terrible. I was 16 years old and I was talking back to her and it was I deserved it cuz I was being mean to Mom.

28:43 And she's let me know the first time I've ever been in my mom the broom. I think it's actually Diana. Is he the guy in Arturo? It's one of the other and it's cuz they were mouthing off to her to that's the first time she probably you are with her. Now. What's funny is on my mom has lived on the reservation for so long that she will go on the rants about how white people are doing this in the morning. We'll see how others feel like a mom. You need to look in the mirror. You know what I mean? I can sell Native Americans biggest fan and she just loves the culture and she loves the people like it being a part of having, you know that and then her background and her coming from where she came from is just amazing and I'm loving these chill.

29:43 Who are different?

29:46 Now and she's just unconditional love.

29:51 Is there anything else you'd like to talk about it? I don't know.

29:59 We had a little bit my mom was sexually and physically abused by her parents will not just your parents. Also, her siblings were involved in something. That's why she never really we never really knew them all too. Well cuz they also they are very racist against us kids. My I didn't remember this one instant that. My grandma she was scrubbing us with us the steel scrubber because we were Brown and we were dirty and she would scrub just grabbing me tell I was red.

30:37 And that's how you know crazy. That's the family that my mother came from. So for her, you know being mailed trying to not take on that take on the energy of that of what they did. Marry my father who was different you don't like my father was a very is a very brilliant man. Like he did have a really bad accident right when I was born he fell off a cliff and he has brain damage. His body is very would very mangle from that. But you know, that's what we're kind of got it he got into the Native American flute was that's the only Avenue of money money to help us and to raise us some that's the only way you can make money cuz nobody else would hire him things like that. He was a liability they put it on his thumb and so but I just wish it with her marrying my father, you know, they're not going through those things like you know, she

31:37 A my father going to be coming from where he came from. He came from not-so-good back on either, you know, and that's the funny thing is, you know, from where our parents came from, you know, they're their upbringing there. You know, there are some of the stories are very horrific, you know, and you don't know they've all they were always open with us about what what they went through never they never wished. You were never shy about sharing it and I think that they thought they use their there.

32:05 Their experiences to raise us to be better. You know, my father always talked about how he wanted us to be the better than him, you know, and now you don't even understand that to an extent because you know working with these young kids. I want these kids to be better than me. You know, I'm so I really appreciate my parents and there was times when the you know, they got on my nerves my mom still does but I love her, you know me and her have an amazing relationship and she loves to push my buttons, but you know, it's but I love my mom has a little hole. She she just she's a loving person. She's always there to to support anyone so, you know, and I really appreciate everything they've done for us, so

32:53 LOL, do you remember like dad and his first Native American flute for the story corpse? That's actually the store. He shared the sounds that we're coming out of it. We actually I remember like me and you went up and grabbed his flu and we were covering the holes cuz it was just this awful sound and it was just awful and it took him 2 weeks to Chisel it out. I remember us going out to be in the middle of the night takes us up to Big Springs and we're like what is going on here? I'll have a sleeping in their meal. That is Joshua. He's just this little guy. He's so cute my little brother. I'll go around sitting there where play in and all the sudden there's this

33:45 My debt, you know, my dad just comes barreling out. We didn't know it was him. Just what we thought it was monster. We all scream and ran to the car and here's my dad covered in mud with the stick in his head because I'm going to make a flute with him because he was scared to perform by himself on stage. So we started dancing and then my dad had each of us make a Native American flute. We help my dad with his flutes and Joshua has gone the furthest with it out of all of us and he is way beyond your my dad and he doesn't like to admit it. He always tells me that I don't think so because he is Way Beyond me like I have no idea what he's talking about. Sometimes when you see the making he has passed on to Joshua even though

34:41 Yo, he is not a tribal member. We know that it's going to carry on in our family with him tell me to do what I do is because I'm out of trouble number, you know, I guess maybe it's something I have to prove you probably not the best way but I still have to prove that. I am I am Native American but I'm also many other things. You don't know what these kids. You know, I want to make sure that they are not they're not afraid of who they are afraid of being Native American and they should embrace it and and there's a lot of strength to their ancestors are and what they went through.

35:24 One of the messages I guess you brought a flute to you want to talk about your talk about this song? Cuz I don't really know what else to say. I love the flute growing up. I was always resistant to learning to play it but I had a when my early twenties I began making them because it was a way of making money out of collagen. It was just one of those experiences just very unique and they got to kind of hate and again it help me with my identity as well. Just working in building these I'm there's just something that's very therapeutic about it you and then the sound itself playing and listening to it is is a whole whole different idea. Do you know when it comes to the Native American flute dumb, you know, there's a lot of people who play songs like current songs very unique and play Star Spangled Banner all sorts of different things within the American flute but like my idea of a memory food as you play it you play whatever you feel, you know, I've never I don't like playing any modern songs.

36:24 American flute because I think that is kind of diluting the what it is, you know, because it's it's it's music is supposed to be pure it's supposed to be something that's unique within yourself. And so that's why I never I never really even practice. I just play whatever comes to me. So but that's all do now and then I guess we'll just end after that so