Norita Martin and Mary Haren

00:03 My name is Mary van here in my age is 53 and today is August 7th, 2015. And I'm in Seattle Washington interviewing my mother Norita and I am the youngest of five of her children.

00:19 My name is norito Martin. I'm 65. I'll be 60.

00:29 I'm 85.

00:32 Will be 86 end of the month. This is August 7th 2015. I'm in Seattle Washington and Mary is my youngest daughter.

00:47 Okay, Mom. We thought we would talk about the first time you went to Europe but a little background first, don't when and where were you born? I was born in Washington DC.

01:02 Moved from Washington DC to Maryland about a mile from the district line when I was five.

01:12 Both my parents were from Washington DC. So my dad is Lewis Carson Hill. He was in the military is actually he was playing in the third Calvary band out of Fort Myer, Virginia.

01:34 And I remember him saying that the only way was going to get a promotion was if somebody died or retired is kind of like when they got into the band they just sort of stayed there. My mother was born in DC as I've said I graduated from school. There was very artistic painted and Andrew. I have several of the things that she did some watercolors. She was very creative very talented and did not work until she was probably in her 30s. She was home with my brother and I

02:11 And your dad played with it at Calvary band for they on Horseback or a band and he played saxophone and clarinet when he paid in the band when they March keep had laid the saxophone and we used to go to see the inaugural parades and once dad came by and we saw and waved and hollered at him we went home cuz the president was just kind of not a big deal. He was a neighbor my maternal grandmother who was a delight and actually I realize now when I look back that she was much more give me much more of an important figure in my life. Then my mother was mother was kind of

03:07 There she was a dreamer and a reader and I created creative person and it's like we just kind of War there but grandma was very much. She was more my mother than my mother was and then we had an Englishman who lived with us. It was quite a character. My mother's brother found him in a Tavern about a mile down the street and just discovered that he really didn't have a place to go. He was supposed to live with his sister but something it happened and she never got to the states or what so he brought him home and Graham said well, of course we can take care of him and he was a veteran from the first world war and was from London England. He didn't have a tooth in his head not a one and Lewis and I my brother drove him absolutely crazy poor man. I've think back that.

04:07 It must have been I don't know if maybe was clad grandma was good to him. So it was probably all right, but she got very annoyed with us quite often. So that was my family in the depression that you guys actually fared better than some other families during that time. And yes we did because my because my dad was military and that helped us we had PX and commissary privileges. We also have free medical care and my grandmother word. She worked at the Navy Yard in in DC and that happened because she joined

04:49 She was in the first women's Naval core the waves and she was a part of that because they went into the offices.

05:01 In the Navy yard and took over desk jobs to release the military man to active duty. And when the war was over, I guess you must have done. All right, and wanted to stay and she ended up being there for 35 years and because she was a veteran. She's buried in Arlington National Cemetery in my brother's got to see her grave Patrick did he was back there? So I'm kind of leading up to what got you to Germany in this I think is part of it. Tell me about your mom's death. How old were you and the circumstances a mother died right after World War II ended in 45 and she was 35 years old. It was very sudden very unexpected. She was gone in a matter of 5 days and my dad was in England.

06:01 Create the Air Force. He had transferred from the band to the Air Force so we could make more money and get promotion switch wasn't happening before so.

06:13 Hit it took a while for Dad to go through all the paperwork and remember role of getting home and I was a junior. I was just sick.

06:27 And actually mothered my birthday is the 30th of August mother Swiss 29th and mother died on the 5th of September. So

06:40 It was we had both just kind of turned another year, but Dad had to go back to England. So we went we move we were in, Missouri.

06:53 St.joe and then we move back to Maryland with my maternal grandmother and my uncle that was my mother's brother.

07:04 And he was working at the Powder Factory in a little place called Indian Head Maryland, and it was connected to the Navy Yard in DC. So Grandma and my brother Louis and I packed up and back we went to Maryland and I finished my junior year and graduated from the school there. And once I had graduated from high school Dad figured it was he was stealing in Germany and he figured it was time that he could bring Lewis and I to Europe to be there with him. Yeah, that's kind of what I was kind of what were the circumstances that led you and your brother to go to Germany to be with your dad versus maybe staying in the States where there's some choices are certain things that we're going on or no and Lewis and I were quite happy with my Uncle Bud my grandma, you know,

08:02 We were used to being together cuz Uncle Bud used to spend a lot of time at our home anyway, but Louis and I were both excited about the idea of going to Europe and we lived in the same place for a long time and it was kind of a little Lou Place very rural even his closest we were to DC. It was filled with dirt road, but Dad had given us the choice, you know, if you would like to come I can do that. I can bring you over and we both said yeah, let's go. Okay end of unusual for 2 dependents to be over in. Yes. It was they had at that point right after the war you were either military or you were a spouse of a military person or you were a federal employee who had a job in your

09:02 Or you were Red Cross or knew you were a medical person but to just have two young dependents there that weren't married or anything was most unusual at that point. We were among the very first to go.

09:23 So tell me how you travel to Germany on My Mind by William.

09:31 We had to go to Fort Hamilton in New York.

09:38 In fact, it was in Brooklyn and we sailed on a converted hospital ship.

09:45 From there, but I had we were there for about a week 5 6 days before we actually sailed and my Uncle Bud who had taken us up there and gotten us settled contacted another Uncle who was

10:05 My father's sister's.

10:09 Ex husband have to pay to get all these things straight his name with dr. Lester showing. He was a dentist and he had this big fancy office in Manhattan. So Uncle Bud thought he should know we were there and that maybe he would entertain us or something which is what happened on Celeste next to we knew Uncle Lester was there and we were Switched Off to New York City had an absolutely fabulous time. I had never been to New York and I remember we did Chinatown we did. What's the big Park?

10:45 Central Park Amusement Park Amusement Park, Coney Island Coney Island in think I ever forget that was wonderful and then I'm collector. He was like, he was an interesting character. He knew an elderly lady who lived in a penthouse at the Waldorf Hotel. So that was one of our evenings. We went to Radio City Hall and I was thrilled to see the dancers absolutely thrilled cuz that was a big thing for me and then we went to see this this lady. I don't remember her name and I think the first thing that struck me was that at 11 midnight in New York City. It's like it was 10 in the morning traffic was heavy there were people everywhere lights on it was just like it never went to sleep. I don't know that it probably doesn't

11:45 But I had never seen a city like that DC certainly wasn't like that for New York City was was pretty exciting. So we spent about three days and then back to Hamilton and then we got on our ship and our accommodations were pretty interesting because it was his me because it was a converted hospital ship. There. Was this big Ward that held about 250 people and because I was single and my brother was single they had to do something they felt like they needed to do something a little different for us. So my brother was in a cabin with an adult civilian employee going to Europe and three other

12:37 Young man, I think they were all yeah, they were all teenagers at this poor man. I don't know how he survived the trip because the boys really gave him a bad time to play all kinds of tricks on things. It was my first brush with sexual education as pretty naive. I was 18, but you know, I was 18 needs a lot of things and nobody talked about. My mother had been gone for two years. My grandmother bless her heart. I'm sure it never occurred to her to talk to me about anyting. So was this big Ward and then when you came in right in the center was a big laundry room and then on each side there were two little alcoves with bunk beds. Will it just so happened? There were four of us young ladies who were not married. So we got these two bunk beds. I think they were trying to give us some separated.

13:37 From all the married women in the big Ward and I'll tell you what, I didn't know when I got on that ship I certainly Knew by the time I got off. I never heard the story of my life and we used to get up really quiet. And so they think we gone to sleep and then we listen to all these Tales. Oh my goodness. The other women were married or married and lots of conversations and they were from all over. So it was a that was that was a lot of lot of fun then we had bad weather.

14:21 We had about three days of really rough weather and I think everybody on the ship except for Lewis and I got seasick. I know the ward were all married women were was terrible. Nobody was good. They were all sick and we couldn't get out of bed. So Lewis and I were called into service and we were running back and forth with pops of tea and and Saltines Saltines 7-Up, and she thank goodness. We don't have to clean up anything because it was kind of a mess.

14:55 So other than that, it was some that it was a nice trip. So where did you land in Europe on that shift and then had to get to Germany and we're in Germany that landed in bremerhaven and that was my first

15:12 Experience in the first time I really thought about War and what war does to a country. I remember standing out on the deck as they were getting the ship secured and ready for us to leave and watching this big crowd of very very poor people rummage through all the garbage cans coming off the ship and knowing that you know Americans are not really known for being Thrifty as far as food is concerned even then apparently was a big deal for them because there was nothing in Germany at that time. The economy was so bad there weren't any jobs many buildings most businesses have been destroyed to the point to where they couldn't operate.

16:12 Their economy was kind of rock bottom and that really just kind of stopped me cold. I I finally had to turn around and go in. I couldn't I couldn't stand there and watch it and then from there.

16:28 Well, we can look like a bunch of refugees. We had all these tags with her name and where we're going and who are a spouse who are dependent on what trains we were going to be on it was in in dangling from there. We got on a train and we went to Frankfurt. Well, my German was pretty non-existent. I could say don't concern and bitter and yes or no that was bad at all and I smoked I did learn how to ask for an ashtray German word was so I knew where it was. Okay for me to smoke. We got to Frankfurt.

17:15 And we all got off the train and dad had said to us don't.

17:22 Take your eyes off your luggage watch your luggage cuz you don't know it couldn't just disappear. So we're being very good children. We stood there and we watched her luggage went and looked at the guy very closely. So we would remember who it was that had moved our luggage when we finally decided it was okay. We looked around and all the other people that have been on the train with us work on.

17:49 And we didn't know where they've gone and Frankford is a Big Railroad Station.

17:56 Well

17:58 We Americans were not terribly popular as you can imagine at that time and I was so much American it was frightening. I'm walking dead. I said Louis we have to find some gi's or there's got to be someplace where there are American soldiers posted for information places cuz there's lots of American soldiers here. I was dressed like I was going to New York. I had a gray and white pinstripe suit, but the best part was I had my very favorite shoes on and in that error of the late forties. We were wearing platform soles about an inch high slingback heel and pretty much at 3 3 and 1/2 inch spiked heel, but mine were patent leather.

18:58 Neighbor called Cherry Coke kind of burgundy but they had more Brown and if they were really a pretty color and I had the purse to go with it this big envelope purse thing. I've never been so sorry about how I was dressed because we're walking through this big terminal nothing but Germans know I couldn't find American anywhere and you could have spotted me if I could walk through their Buck Naked never would have caused any more of a commotion in the dead and dirty looks something, you know, well finally we found this little office of here with these two nice young American soldiers in there and we went in and said,

19:44 We came with a group off the train, but we've lost them and we don't know where we're supposed to go and they looked at us and said are you as a hill kids? Yes. Where is that? Have you been? Well, just trying to find something. So they said okay, they took us back down through the terminal and it ended up we were going to a hotel which was across the street. So when we got there, we had a couple of hours and the lady in her very broken English said you may I have a room if you would like to freshen up and take a shower or just rest for a while since you've got a couple hours wait while we were written with my Bose we're real excited. So she had only talked to me I ran over and got Lewis and six months. We got it. I got it can't we got a room we can both take showers when we were so excited. We started up the stairs and this lady came running after is going on.

20:44 Nothing nice by 9 and I'm like, okay what's going on? Well, she did not realize this was my brother and she she had figured out the registration that we were not married. And so it was like no only one of you at a time. Can you go to the room? I'm like, oh my goodness gracious. So we were good. I went up took a quick shower and call my hair and got myself together and then Lewis went up cuz you German wasn't good enough to explain, you know, I didn't know how to say brother and sister. I didn't know how to say male or female. I just did was bad, but we laughed later and said well, okay that's, you know, nothing like coming to a foreign country where you can't talk to me.

21:34 So depressed then we got on the train. And from there. We went to erlangen which was where Dad was stationed and it's near we were south of Bamberg Nuremberg Bamberg or line going south and then we were definitely Varian area and we were pretty excited and when we got to the house, so we drove through nuernberg. I remember that

22:09 Cuz that's what yes, that's where we got off the train and then we drove through the old city and I was just I couldn't believe what I saw I was there was so little left of the Heart of the City.

22:28 And it had this strange odor and I kept trying to identify it and I couldn't so I finally asked Dad I said, you know, why does it smell different and he hesitated for a minute and then he said well, it's the bodies that are buried under the rubble and it's a very

22:51 It's a very sweet funny odor while that shut me up. No hurry. I thought I'm not going to ask anything else. I don't that's enough for now, but you're longing was a nice little town. I really enjoyed being there and we were our home was near a concern German concern where they used to train the tanks. So it had lot big fields with lots of big holes in it that they trained on getting in and out of and I know what we finally dad couldn't get a car. Nobody had a car you were lucky if you had a motorcycle and but Dad got a scooter and Lewis and I used to use scooter to go to the commissary and run errands and stuff and our biggest fan are we loved it was trying to drive him to scooter up and down these big holes and sometimes we got out and sometimes we

23:51 Had to drag that darn scooter like half way up to the top and weave course we were surrounded with young German soldiers and young and Young American soldiers and because there were so few.

24:08 Single American women they always thought I was German and they'd hang out the barracks windows and wave. Hey Fraulein.

24:19 And then it was like did I did I want some cigarettes or do I need some hoes in this because they would go to the PX and buy things for their German lady friends and I would say no. I'm an American Realty. What are you doing here? I liked her long and it was a pretty Town made some friends with young men from

24:52 Dad's outfit and oh because I was 18. He's decided that I guess he should provide some male company for me that I probably would like that. So he started bringing young man home to dinner. Oh my goodness, as you can imagine. It was not very successful. They were scared to death. I was bored to death was like, I don't know where he found a weenie. I remember now. He told me he went through the company records and he only found three men that he thought were acceptable.

25:28 I said, okay Dad. That's right. You know, I've been dating for two years in the states. It's kind of like I can't take care of myself. But no and then I met a young man standing in line to go to confession at the little catholic Chapel, but they hands to the Americans. I thought well surely Dad can't find anything wrong with him. So I invited him home and he met my dad and my stepmother and she would call and he came by a couple of times and then he called and asked me if you wanted to take me to a company party. I knew that would not fly. No way.

26:10 So I ask Dad. He said nope. No company parties for you.

26:18 Okay, Dad.

26:20 And then so I didn't hear from there. Any man again after that was a shame. He's probably going to the nicest guys over there. I figured if he was going to church it was okay, but I meant a couple other

26:34 Tell us I know I'm probably met them at the club cuz we could go on going to the club was great fun. They it was about.

26:47 A mile maybe mile and a half from where we live but they took 3/4 ton trucks army trucks and there were designated stops and they drove did this little route and picked up anybody that was there while it was mostly German girls, and then there was me.

27:11 And they took us to the club and then there was a thing with maybe 10:30 11:00 the bus took your back dropped you off and then when the guys realize that I was an American, they didn't want me to get in the back because always remember you climbed up over the back of the the truck and I said no no. No, I'm going to the club just like the girls are and one of them was really nice. He said take off your hose because if you don't by the time you get there, you'll have to take them off. Anyway, this is not you know, the backseat of a car. So I didn't seem the other girls did to if they had hoes and we all ended up in the ladies room when we got there trying to get ourselves back together because it was open in your hair was blowing and your stockings got ruined and I made a lot of nice friends with German girl.

28:08 And the club was fun because that was our only place for any kind of a social get-together. There didn't have all the things that they have now for family and we had movie night twice a week and you could get popcorn and you sent these nice big comfy chairs and you could have if you were old enough you could have beer or you can have pop see what we think that's real New here while we were doing it and how many years ago many years ago. And then we had Bingo a couple of nights and the movies were fun because that would be a break when they change the real.

28:48 Turn All the Lights On and you kind of chatted with the people next door, is it okay time to go here we go again and you could dance they had music on the weekends. And I love to dance I dance from the time. I was three I guess I my dad and my mom were great dancers and dad being a musician had a love the music and the dancing.

29:14 And that's when I met your dad through one of the and I can't remember he knew was a young man and he knew my dad and worked with Dad and I remember he and he came by the house every once in awhile to get something or bring a message home. And he said I have a friend I would like you to meet and I said, okay I said but you got to go through my dad first, you know, if you kind of calls the shots around here. Okay, it'll be alright. This is a really nice young man and the taste of truth. I cannot remember.

29:55 Where he was stationed?

29:59 I know I don't know. I guess I knew it one time but I don't know now. I don't remember but that's how I met your dad. And so when he especially on the weekends if he could get away he would.

30:12 He would come up and we go up to the club and dance tell me about you and Dad getting married, especially like your marriage license in your wedding dress and stuff. Oh, oh, oh, yeah. Well, this was right after divorce. So it was there was nothing available, but we bought everything through the Montgomery catalog and

30:39 Like I told your dad I said, I don't know how we're going to do this and we got married sooner really than we had planned on because Dad got transferred to Stuttgart and we had been in early on in Stuttgart has is even further south and then to the Bavarian area and so it was either get married so I can stay in Germany or go home with my dad. Well, the home situation was not

31:08 Terrific because Dad had remarried this very young English girl and she just wasn't keen on me and I wasn't very happy and I thought why should I go home? I think I'll just get married and stay here. So that's what we did. But because Dad had just transferred when we were in Stuttgart we never did.

31:32 We never did see the priest or even talk to him before our wedding. He had to come from stood card, but we were in the blinking.

31:45 I think that's right. And there was this huge Monastery and we were married in the chapel there. I felt like I was maybe three feet tall it because it was just my family and a few neighbors and close friend and it was very small and my dress I couldn't get a dress quickly. So did your dad came home one day or brought home a big parachute and so my wedding gown was made from a parachute still. Can I still have it? It's it's it's a treasure and that you couldn't buy Rings. There was no nothing like that. So we asked our friends if they had any kind of old.

32:26 Gold jewelry of any kind that they were willing to give us or we would buy it from the back and I remember going to the jeweler with a paper bag with all this funny little pieces of odds and ends of jewelry, and that's what I Rings were made from.

32:43 And then the marriage certificate wasn't that the papers the papers for ridiculous because they had never had an American who was just too dependent who wasn't somehow part of the military get married and they didn't know what kind of papers to get me. So we got them all and I have a I still have them there's like an inch thick of paper somewhere to get go to the mayor of the town.

33:14 That was like getting your license and then and we weren't sure the priest was going to show up. We were there and you know, and then afterward he said was you know, I probably should have heard your confession before right you were married and I'm thinking it's all right to do that.

33:34 So was very different.

33:37 What did you learn when you were?

33:43 I learned that people are the same everywhere in the world and it's probably the best lesson I've ever learned.

33:52 I was young enough that I didn't have any.

33:58 I didn't have hostile feelings toward the German people the hierarchy or the government. Yeah, you know it when I realized the terrible results of War but the people that the German people that I knew that were my neighbors and my friends were just like anybody here in the states and I had I really love them and I had a little Maid who was just a year older than I was and it was ridiculous. I mean was just van and I and I didn't need anybody to clean house. So we did it together and then we went shopping trips a little exploration, and she was just darling. I just loved you dearly. I stayed in touch with her for about 10 years and then I lost touch but

34:47 Yeah, it's people or the same they cry about the same things. They laugh about the same things. It doesn't doesn't matter and why did you have a maid? I had one because the government was paying for it and she didn't cost me a dime. They a little worksheets that we filled out and this was a way of getting some money started into the German economy because he didn't have anything they really didn't and that's what black marketing was a big deal in you.

35:23 You're up.

35:26 Items that you used black market with for coffee soap mayonnaise peanut butter.

35:36 Cigarettes cigarettes were big thing big thing, but it did get them them started some of the some of the families did not treat the girls. Well, and I always felt bad about that. I think it was just too much too comfortable to live two different from the kind of Life. They have at home. You know it home. They cook their meals to pair of their children kept their house and they got to Germany and I didn't have to do any of that and we were lovely homes and everything was taken care of for us. Nothing we have to pay for anything and it was a big temptation to

36:25 Go astray spend too much time sitting in the club.

36:30 And it's not being home with your family.

36:35 But I love my policy was a sweetheart Paula. That was her name, but I think it's been really nice to hear about this experience. We talked about it before I've always just appreciated that it's Unique and I think it's a little window into a certain time and situation. So thanks for coming up here and talking with me about it. Well, thank you Mary for arranging this and for having good questions and keeping me on track cuz you know, I can kind of wand perfect. Love you Mom. We love you too, very