Dan Van Ness and Brenda Van Ness

00:03 My name is Dan Van Ness. I'll be 67 years old little later this month. Today is May 4th 2016. We're in Washington DC and I'm with my wife.

00:15 My name is Brenda Van Ness and I'm 65 years old today is May 4th 2016. Where in Washington DC and I'm here with my husband. We've been married for 42 years. It's right and we're here because we thought it would be nice to talk about Dan's career and the direction he's gone cuz it's very interesting and so starting out down the do you remember what you wanted to be when you were growing up?

00:48 My dad was a pastor for the first 10 years of my life. So I think probably I wanted to be a pastor when I was in high school with her next-door neighbor or down the street neighbor was a lawyer and I work for a year in his Law Firm after school and that got me interested in.

01:10 Being a lawyer. So those are kind of the two things I had in mind as somebody asked. It's either a pastor or a lawyer. So when did you decide you wanted to be a lawyer?

01:18 Is after college I was waiting to see if I get drafted. This is at the tail end of the Vietnam War and

01:27 I had gotten a job as a janitor a night. Janitor cuz I didn't want to make a career decision. I didn't want to go to Seminary.

01:38 Or ever decide that I would be a pastor because I was afraid I could get a deferment draft from if I went to Seminary and I wouldn't get one if I went to law school so is afraid of deciding something and nothing really sure what my motives were. So I decided to wait to see if I got drafted and one of the interesting things is down the street from where I was living was a legal aid office. I was working nights. I didn't know anybody in the area. So I went down and asked if I could volunteer as a receptionist at the legal aid office and it's the same Chicago not it in Chicago after college. Yeah.

02:14 So how did you end up going to DePaul which I know is where you went to law school. And that's right. I went to DePaul. I hadn't replied to DePaul. I had applied to some other places some of them I would I'd gotten into one of them was Northwestern. So on the waiting list for the fellow who is the director of the legal aid office. It was a federal office. I just agree to go to DePaul and start a legal clinic at the Paul and he liked me and it said he'd been talking to the Dean. This is way past the time for applying at

02:50 The deadline was way past had sent out their acceptances already.

02:59 Don Berna, okay tell you something like that.

03:06 So now he said he could get me and he talked to the dean the dean had five slots that he was reserving and he could get me in. So I walked over to Northwestern withdrew my package cuz they needed the complete package right away and then walked over to DePaul and ended up going there. So we made some choices that had an impact on your future tell me about that briefly.

03:39 Yeah, there were a couple of I knew that I wanted to I was going to law school in order to do work for the poor represent the poor in the interest of the poor and for me it was a calling so I thought it might be a minister and I decided that I had a Ministry but it was a Ministry of Justice advocacy.

03:59 So I made decisions based on.

04:03 That priority that goal.

04:06 So I was asked to be on the law review and I decided not to accept it because I was afraid I was competitive enough. I want to be an editor and then I get attractive offers and I might be tempted to

04:19 Help the poor from the 72nd floor of the Sears Tower. I also rather than getting a job at law firms. I worked at my second summer are the summer between my first and second gear and then all the second year at a prison Legal Services Program that did free services did free advocacy for

04:43 People who are at Stateville prison in my third year. I work with People's Law Center, which was in people's neighborhood Loss Center in the Cabrini-Green area was run by some African-American students and the sponsor that the legal the lawyer who is providing oversight to that was Chuck Hogan Cabrini Green Legal Aid and that's why I went to work with once I graduated Cabrini-Green, but then after law school, what did you do?

05:27 I work for a year at Cabrini Green Legal Aid. I was working primarily with you and juveniles and they were kids that were in trouble with the law. So kind of a theme for one of things. I knew I didn't want to do when I was in law school was either international law or criminal law. I ended up doing criminal law work almost from the outset. I did a general practice for five years after that on the westside of Chicago, which is where we were living with moved in with some friends from church in to the Austin Community, which was under serviced.

06:01 And so we were there with the doctor and nurse and counselor and set up a kind of a community center with the law office in Tucson.

06:12 So we were there living in community and working at the community center for about 5 years or so. I graduated in 75, so it was from 670-6281.

06:31 Thought we'd be there. I mean we didn't have any plans to do anything. Other than that except that I remember getting bored with living in the midwest remember that and we thought we got to get out of the Midwest cuz you drive for a half a day or a day and you're still in the midwest. So and that's was the motive Transportation vacation. So got to get out of here. And so we thought let's go east but we weren't really doing anything about it. And then what happened?

07:05 I had a client who was I had some clients that paid for fee and then others paid on a sliding scale. So I had a few clients who was Lynn Buzzard with Christian legal Society.

07:18 He knew what we were doing any wanted to support me. So when he had a house sale, he asked me to do the closing. All right, so we're sitting waiting for the closing and he said I've got a conflict schedule conflict in two weeks. I'm supposed to be in two different places. One of which was his own board meeting Joe Colson had started five years earlier and

07:48 You thought it was just a little conference if it was a conference going to go to the sessions and I thought it might be kind of interesting. There was an assignment he'd given me related to Cook County Jail. And I asked is it something that would help me with that? And he said he didn't think so, but he would propose me is a substitute.

08:07 So I flew out to.

08:10 Are you wet yet? I went I think I went out on a Friday.

08:15 It was probably a Friday and Saturday meeting in the event was two days.

08:20 And and as I recall you were very suspicious of this Chuck Olson person. I didn't like him at all and I was mistrustful of his conversion. Yeah, I read born again. It was a good book, but I really wanted him to spill the beans on Nixon cuz I just knew that there must be all kinds of stuff but I've been getting his newsletter. I've been put on somebody put me on his newsletter mailing list and I've been reading his editorials and the editorials were theologically profound. They were they were just retelling his conversion story, which is what I expected, but he actually seemed to be

09:01 Thinking person thinking and reading scripture and trying to understand what had how did it apply and not just the easy part but the hard parts to even before you went to this meeting was before I went you have for a couple years you were curious but not convinced as I recall and so I went and turned out it was a meeting of 10 to 12 people figuring out how they should launch Criminal Justice Reform activities and it was the second meeting. It had one six months earlier. And so it was kind of gathering together and I was impressed by him.

09:39 Buy it how smart he was and how genuinely he was concerned about Justice for the poor. It was kind of a theme that would that would show up and show it resonated with what we've been doing. Anyhow, I'm about halfway through the the day the two days. I thought I'd like to get invited back. So the only way that's going to happen if a blind still around and available to come is if they invite me because they want me there and so I began kind of aggressively providing some leadership in the course of eating things would getting more vocal and write out a question and nobody would respond. So I would say well let's let's answer by thinking map of the United States that start with Washington State what's going on in Washington. And what about, Oregon and California?

10:34 At some point Colson was sitting next to me just kind of sat back and I kind of took over the meeting for a little while and then you know, I was quiet let me know who's respectful cuz I was new but on the way back the guy that I'd pick me up who was somebody we've known from Chicago and was not working for prison fellowship Ralph Yurman that we met at Circle. Anyhow, he said that we got a few minutes before the plane takes off when we sit down for a minute and then he handed me a note that Chuck had written and passed him who said hire this guy I said we're looking for somebody to fill the position and we've talked to other lawyers and they can't afford to come for what we're going to pay them.

11:19 This is what the salary would be that and because I've been doing Poverty Law.

11:24 It was a big increase over.

11:30 So there was a thin advantage to having done the kind of practice that we had been doing and we were primed for it cuz we wanted to get out of Chicago and we were thinking Boston area. But hey, this is not bad. It's hard for you because you had just gotten a great time life to do computer programming what I wanted. But so I wanted to get out of Chicago more than the earth and I thought that well I can do the same thing in DC on the way to do that. You took a course. Yeah, but also just seemed like the right thing to do. It seemed like a continuation of kind of a sense of calling that we had on Earth and we were both really excited about it. I remember going out for the actual interview and the weekend when they made you the offer and my

12:29 One of my few memories of that weekend is driving from the airport out to bottom of Ian or somewhere out in the suburbs via the GW Parkway and just the beauty around us. I think it was Springtime might not might not have been spring yet. But anyway just such a gorgeous drive, you know compare it to the Dan Ryan Expressway in Chicago and there's just no comparison. That was fun. It was amazing. You get out of national airport to get on the George Washington Parkway and you don't have to drive very far when you're surrounded by trees so different from Chicago.

13:09 So I was not reluctant at all about moving.

13:14 Alright, so we did that we came out and move to DC or Virginia. Anyway, we moved to Virginia you worked in and the office was in Virginia.

13:26 So I don't know what to do. What did you start doing there then?

13:33 They said you had been a lawyer. So now you're working for a nonprofit in the nonprofit's work have been doing Ministry with prisoners Bible studies and discipleship horses. And that's what they were doing. What you were going to do? So but what had happened Chuck was course from politics. And so when you would travel around to promote prison fellowship

13:59 He would meet friends of his who were now in political office in different states and they would say you're going to be really happy because we're building a whole bunch of Prisons the very beginning of the prison expansion. Boom and Chuck had been in prison he knew who was there and he said it's a big mistake that you can spend the money a whole lot better in different ways that are more productive. This was an 81 that we were able to move than anyone started.

14:29 So this was in the late seventies and there's been some rides in prisons that were getting national attention.

14:38 So

14:41 He was really smart heat and he knew what he was talking about. But he didn't have time to pull together information or to provide briefing information and often what would happen if the politicians would say that sounds really great in the way. You presented sounds good, but I'd get voted out of office if I try to do this or think so my job was to help collect knowledge information about alternatives to prison like restitution centers community service programs drug treatment any number things like that and then to help organize task forces of kind of average Citizens Business people other leaders who were from the support.

15:27 People who supported what prison fellowship was doing in their state organized them into a task force and begin lobbying through them for changes to the law and

15:41 That was that was what I did was really interesting because I switched I like practicing law a lot. I like the contact with the night before the trial that got her in Trials was awful though in the couch were killed me because it was so so stressful.

16:03 So I judged to the way to personalize be a good trial lawyer. So to switch from that to policy policy and systemic changes would fit my skills really well and also my personality. I mean, they're still stress.

16:19 When I had high-level.

16:23 Briefing to give for Testimony to offer something like that and there was nothing like being before a jury.

16:32 So, I mean I just I enjoyed it more and it's probably better at it. What did you miss most about practicing Law contact with clients, but I felt lonely and

16:47 I had planned that one client would like Siri and she would a lawyer van. Daan.

16:55 And the receptionist to call up laughing and say lawyer Van Damme. There's somebody here to see you. She was a delightful person and the thing about being a lawyer is it's a little like being a doctor somebody comes in. They've got a crisis in the life. Even if it's writing a will. There's thinking about death so you get into values right away and so a doctor will say take off your clothes and you do it a lawyer can ask all kinds of questions because you need to as a lawyer to find out background information to give him good advice.

17:26 And what I realized is that all my clients and were really well-rounded people in my mind. I understood them and like them cared about them are wise allows his lawyer trial lawyer cuz he cared so much that it was and it was a downside of working on policy in policy. You're dealing in the aggregate rather than the individual and so what did you like most about being a POF?

17:53 I really enjoyed the policy work. It was stimulating and it was interesting to figure out.

18:00 Things that nobody else has figured out in an area ended up traveling a lot. But did you travel very much in the beginning and Indiana? So I'd like to state that reminds me. When was the first time you were on Death Row? I Remember You Went to Walla Walla Walla Walla, Washington for the Walla Walla State Penitentiary death row is and at the time it was run by motorcycle gangs and they were cracking down was it famous? Because it was such a horrible place, or was it a riot or something? What made it so all of those things?

18:47 Chuck and I visited Chuck it been in there earlier about 4 months earlier and

18:53 It came out and said this is the worst prison in the world and he been in a lot of prison so it got the headlines. So the warden was fired new Warden was brought in and so when we visited Chuck said, so what's it like, you know in the prison and the warden said I don't go into some parts of the prison. I'm afraid to sew Chuck being Chuck said well we're going there. So and you were with it. I was with it if she went into Jethro area and the other prisoners there were on a strike a hunger strike and they throw food all over the cell that their selves and in the walkway outside and feces and urine and stuff like that. They were doing what the prisoners in Northern Ireland were doing or political prisoners hunger strike.

19:49 And Chuck came out and said, so we're walking carefully to go through and talk to people on death row.

19:59 But Chuck said in Belfast Northern Ireland at least the British hose out the area, I mean what they they refuse to be defined by prisoners who are on strike and surrender what civilization requires of people if you're going to hold people captive you have to hold him captive in a decent location and he said Washington state is not doing that again headlines in the news paper and stuff like that. You liked him because he had left the time before and told the truth about what kind of the leaders of the of the prison who would come to anything that check was at. They wanted to know more about what he was doing.

20:46 So is interesting.

20:57 I think about your work at prison fellowship.

21:01 You're probably the The Haunt one of the Hallmarks for me at prison fellowship was the work that we did developing restorative justice. The problem with arguing for alternatives to prison was that you had to argue.

21:18 Pragmatic benefits so prison cost this much and it produces this kind of Destruction in people's lives and cost less and there's less destruction if you do this other thing and

21:33 Somebody wants told me that it sounded like I was saying either it's not as bad.

21:40 So we should do it not it's good. So we should do it or we can't afford first-rate Justice which is to lock people up. So let's instead go with second-rate Justice, which is lock up only the people who really have to and I knew I wasn't arguing either one of those things, but the question was what's the affirmative thing to argue for?

22:00 And I met time it'll work in Indiana admit Howard's there and Markham bright who were both leaders in a very new movement called victim-offender reconciliation programs. We're at sentencing. They would bring together the victim and the offender have them talk about what took place. What was the harm that was done to the victim and what they wanted to recommend to the judge the sentence should be which always involve some form of restitution and something that they did with the victim wanted was for the offender to do something so that they would have left like they did ever do this again in the future very successful and the interviews they were doing a victims that went to that program as opposed to victims went through regular Court made him realize that the victims were talking about a different kind of Justice one that was satisfying to them at a personal level of relational level rather than just a broke a rule and I'm glad the number he's hammering them.

23:00 So it really brought them into the loop to because otherwise in the justice system. They're not really do not give us a statement of fact the prosecution.

23:17 Of all the people in the court the prosecution is probably the closest to the victim but the prosecution makes decisions based on prosecution policies because it is the total caseload better or you might want to go to trial because it's a high-level crime and they were after something that the victim in at 1

23:44 What Mark and how are you been doing was running a program and how it was beginning to write about this thing. He called it restore to Justice and it was in very

23:53 Can a Visionary terms?

24:02 But we were working in public policies which was somewhere between programs and philosophy. And so what I did was organized 3-year project where we tried to identify what are the foundational principles the theory of restorative justice. How does it play itself out in in principles policy public policy principles? And then what programs could we be promoting the business was for our work at prison fellowship so that the work that we did was beef would be positive. It would be working toward the implementation something about my restorative justice. And so that was kind of the contribution that I ended up making to the movement to think about it from a policy perspective. There were a coward and Mark were more practitioners write work was definitely practitioner and Howard was a little bit a little Howard fairly quickly move became.

24:57 What kind of philosopher okay, and he taught at the University. So he was a lot of speaking use a very effective speaker. And there were a lot of other people that became involved is that point too and it's not like it was just the three of us, right what kind of the unique contribution that we made and the funny thing was we would bring together people who are interested in restorative justice. They were either practitioners thinking about it or they were in the criminal justice system interested in thinking about this where they were law professors that were working on related issues or victim Advocates that were addressing this and we would

25:36 Basically do a design process for 2 days. We would just try to get everybody to agree on certain things. And we said you're not committed to defending this. We just we're trying to figure this out. We want to get the best Minds that we can together to develop this and then we would go back and write frantically and send drafts out to people and that was a lot of fun was relieved. That was a PF and then some where you took a an international turn.

26:10 Via what made you decide to leave POF?

26:16 I was at they were moving me into other areas of work when I was I was agreeing to it. Obviously, they don't make me do it but we got the restorative justice framework worked out and it kind of implementing it some people came in here good at implementing the lobbying that we were doing it. So on and they said what we need is your mind on research and development of new programs for prison fellowship in Aftercare work and then that kind of thing so I took on new roles and if that was interesting, but I realized after about a year and a half or two years that I really want to be back working on restorative justice and particularly developing the jurisprudence of restorative justice. That was a thing. I was nobody was working on I was interested in

27:03 So we decided that what I would do is leave go to Georgetown law clinic and get a break Law Center and get a masters of law degree and then plan to teach because that I figured would be a great place I could teach and then use that as a platform for writing and speaking about restorative justice in the legal field.

27:30 So that doesn't work out. Well, it was one of your program which was the most fun I had had for a long time. I remember coming home once saying I can't believe they pay you to do this, and then I realize they didn't pay me every mortgage your house to do it very fulfilling the year after that two years before school started two weeks before school started. I got an invitation to be a visiting professor at University of Detroit Mercy School in Detroit law school and up.

28:08 So I thought criminal out there and a couple of thought criminal justice seminars with the goal being find a permanent position in law school somewhere. And then of the tail end of that we were invited to go to Malta is part of it or I was invited to go to Malta is part of the design team. The government of Malta was wanting to adopt restorative justice. Is there a correctional philosophy and so I went with group of five people and we made a proposal the end of that time. They said they wanted to people to come back one was a guy that was an expert in running prison. They wanted to help them run their prison and they wanted me there for two years while they reworked their legislation and

28:52 Regulations guidelines. So we ended up moving to Malta for 2 years. I taught at the University of Malta criminology department and then work with the ministry of Home Affairs on Prison regulations. And that kind of thing at the end of the two year. It was a great experience. It's wonderful to live outside the US and see especially in Malta boy. That was great beautiful country, but it's right that you know, what's it's in the Mediterranean to let south of Europe and you got all the European the television that sort of thing but you're right around North Africa and the Middle East

29:34 So it just made all of the world news much more prevalent and US News far less significant and it was interesting to see the world as others see us. That was the year that the OJ Simpson trial to place and from outside the US and I had to explain it to students outside the US it was really fascinating.

30:03 Again, the goal was you wanted to teach right? How did that work out didn't work out. I didn't get any offers. No nipples whatsoever member sitting in church in the one day before the Sunday service saying God. I thought this is what I supposed to do and you're not helping at all. Let me know all the doors are closed. I don't know what to do women, right? Remember you went to a job of market meat market and on the elevator with some women and they're talking about all the interviews are getting and you get none because you're a white male who anyway, let's not go there that was maybe part of it part of it to those. I made decisions like not getting on law review the heritage.

30:53 But I would take any excuse that didn't mean to I was personally being rejected. So but I ended up coming back to the US. I got the sense. God was saying I should go work for prison fellowship International with work not in the US but everywhere else and help him start Justice work and it didn't seem to make sense because they are just laid off the person who was working on Justice and it appears they were moving away from that direction. So but a week later, they sent me an offer to come establish their Justice work. So that was a 1996. I've been there since

31:33 We're running out of time. So I guess I'm

31:37 What kinds of things have you done in this time with prison fellowship International you certainly traveled to interesting places including Rwanda and China. And what's been the most interesting?

31:56 Yeah.

31:58 There two two benefits of doing this one is you go someplace and you see things that you wouldn't have seen before so going to Brazil and seeing what the people in Brazil to put together which is a volunteer-run prison based on the premise that crime is their tragic refusal to love. So the solution is to teach people to love and to receive love and then I mean, it's just it's like completely sounds bizarre its way out of left field.

32:34 The other opportunity is the chance to meet with people and do things together. So going to Rwanda and helping him put together a program to prepare genocide.

32:43 Prisoners to be released into the community to prepare them for they could charge hearings that were taking place or work that we did at the United Nations Drafting and and lobbying for adoption of basic principles on the use of restorative justice, which are used as guidelines by countries all over the world.

33:06 Setting up the sycamore tree Prime project which brings groups of victims into prison to me with prisoners and talk about crime and its effect or not each other's victims and offenders, but they're talking about to each other which has a powerful impact not only in the victims but also on the offenders in repeat offending and that's kind of a current that that's what I'm working on now, we're revising it so that it can be used by a lot more prisoners and victims.

33:41 What's next for you?

33:43 What's next for me?

33:47 That's a good just found out a little over six months ago that I have Parkinson's disease and

33:54 Given my age and the way that it's hitting me which is primarily with fatigue of the things I can manage but the fatigue is pretty daunting. I've got back to 4 days a week and I'll probably be leaving at the end of the year then working on a contract basis. So what's next is a big question. That's

34:17 I think in some ways I've been defined by my mission in life, which is been to pursue Justice for people that would be otherwise denied it.

34:25 And

34:28 So what happens now when I'm less and less able to do that and I guess they're two things one is

34:39 The reason to do that was to bring glory to God.

34:42 I'm into my let me do it in a way that people would understand that Justice is God's work and I'm doing just so I can still bring glory to God even if I can't do anything. So figuring out how to do that the second thing that you're a long way from not being able to do anything. Even if you're not working at an office for 5 days a week. Do you know

35:08 Writing helping my son. The second thing that has been the key thing in my life has been you and Michael and

35:20 And again, this has to be redefined a bit because I've been in a lot of respects the provider he worked but

35:29 We've relied on my salary more in the Strategic moments while you put the invested in Michael.

35:37 He's now graduated to go to masters of social work and is working with ex-offenders.

35:46 So that rule changes to bless the kind of the leader and more.

35:57 Leader in the sense of we moved because there were jobs that I was taking.

36:05 So so now what happens when we can decide to move anywhere and what I find is I want to move to be where Michael is.

36:13 Let me know if we've been talking about doing and

36:17 So I guess what's next is to figure out how to begin slowing down.

36:24 And how to

36:28 Find enjoyment.

36:32 And being

36:35 As much as doing which I've always tried for but I was always busy doing so as I do less and less.

36:43 You know a little kind of defined sorts of things chance to focus more and more on being and

36:54 Being your husband being who I am being Michael's Dad when Michael gets married and has kids being his their grandparent.

37:05 Being a follower of Jesus in a different context

37:14 I still think there will be.

37:17 Professional things that you end up doing you'll get called on or you'll be interested.

37:25 He'll respond to blogs or I don't know what that's right. I think I'm done if he f i I mean, I really believe in what they're doing, but they're making a change and they need new leadership to lead them into the new.

37:43 Waited their operating and I realized I've basically invested what I can invest so there may be something else that comes along that energizing but that's kind of what I'm looking for a right now. I'm looking for things that energize and not deplete.

38:03 On the other hand who was recently. Somebody said they they were somewhere and listening to someone and she just kept quoting. She said and Van Ness said but alone Vanessa and she was

38:18 Take this isn't ringing any bells snow. Okay, sorry.

38:23 Yeah, I remember somebody telling us that but I

38:30 I think I want to say to you is that I couldn't have done this without you there are times when?

38:39 I've been really discouraged and it's been great to know that you had my back and you didn't have answers all the time. Sometimes you did.

38:49 But I knew you loved me and I knew you were praying for me and that you knew that we'd figure this thing out.

38:58 There were times when we made decisions together that allowed me to do something professionally that we're really hard on you moving to Detroit with two week notice left you packing the house.

39:13 With a toddler with a toddler and then moving to Malta was exciting was wonderful and

39:24 So anyhow, I just want to say thank you. I feel like we've been a team in all of this. We just talked about what I've done but well I have to say it's been a good ride. It's been you know, I've been interesting places with interesting people in the best of whom is you

39:40 And so the rest

39:44 Do you know we'll see what comes next but I'm sure it will be it will be good. I'll be good because we'll be together. I love you. Love you, too.