Betty Brown-Chappell and Michael Chappell

00:08 Good morning. My name is Michael Chappell. I'm 70 years old today's date is July 14th, 2017. We're in Detroit Michigan and I'm talking to my partner my spouse.

00:23 My name is Betty Brown Chappelle. I'm also 70 today's date is July 14th, 2017. The location is Detroit Michigan and I'm talking to Google love of my life. My husband Michael J. James Chappell.

00:43 Daddy, we're going to talk a little bit about your family and you've done a lot of research on your family's history. So let's start out talking about your grandmother's. What can you tell me about 8th of May Woodson 8th of May Woodson was born July 4th 1888 in Owenton Kentucky. She was the daughter of Thomas and Julia Woodson.

01:07 When she was about it looks like about 10 years old on.

01:16 It was May 9th 1896. So that actually makes her.

01:25 She's admitted to the House of Refuge in Cincinnati, Ohio. And the there after the Census records show that at 14 she was a servant in Kentucky back in Owenton County. What is the house of rep Russian Refuge?

01:49 I was able to find with some help of an archivist a picture of the House of Refuge in Cincinnati, Ohio and it's what we would know now as a poor house in other words children who were either their parents couldn't take care of them. They have been abandoned or alternatively if they have been juveniles in the admission papers for 8th of May. She and two of her sisters were admitted to that facility because they were found on the street by a policeman because they were cold.

02:32 If I go on to talk about 8th of May a lot of the things as you said that I am recalling now, I didn't know as a child when I talk to my grandmother about her childhood. She said, you know, I was in an orphanage and perhaps that's what she thought she was in but it was actually considered a house where poor children were capped subsequently. I also found out again. She didn't tell me this but I found out that it was closed shortly after she left the facility because of it being cited by the state of Ohio as in poor repair with rodents and other types of vermin and therefore they didn't want the children to stay there.

03:25 You may remember the two of us took at least two trips to Owen County Kentucky where I as I said at 14, she was a servant to a white family that live there and if I recall correctly, they had three children and in the census record, it states that she lived in the closet.

03:52 I couldn't figure out how in the world did she get from?

03:58 Cincinnati to Owen County and she was originally born in Orange County at this was a mystery to me and the speculation because I never talked to my grandmother about this. I wouldn't know but the local historian in Owen County Doris Riley. She said that it was not uncommon for the children who have been in the House of Refuge whether they were infants or juveniles to be brought to the courthouse steps in Owen County and then families with just walk up and choose the child if they wanted some people wanted an infant other people wanted someone like my grandmother because they wanted them as servants in their home.

04:50 And so she speculated that that's perhaps how Kentucky did not have a similar facility. So if a child needed to be housed because of some sort of breakdown in the system of care, they had to go to Cincinnati.

05:12 Which is where she had first been found.

05:18 My grandmother married my grandfather Garfield Brown in approximately 1903.

05:29 The interesting thing about that to me is again so much as a mystery because she never spoke to me about Garfield, but I heard about him from a lot of family oral history and he was quite the character. He was several years older than she and apparently from what the oral history that we have.

05:54 He and they met in like a general store. They're just both there and she must have been desperate to get out of the family circumstances that she was in and so I apparently he asked her if she want to get married and she said yes.

06:15 And so they did Mary and I have the license that I've seen when they got married there is a lot of flimsiness about dates because it seems like I'm the marriage license she declared herself a year older than what she was according to other records, but

06:37 Not a long after a long came Harry C Browne their first child. The reason that important to me is again long after my grandmother passed. I showed the picture of my grandparents with that first child and with your second child and what I was told by the Charles Wright curator is that oh, you know that you're descended from the ebo tribe and I said what she said. Oh, yes. I know that because and you can see this picture that we've both seen this picture so I know that because I can tell from her hairstyle that she's descended from the evil tree. So I thought I'd this lady doesn't possibly know what she's talking about. I'll just go look it up and I looked it up and that I've never seen this particular hairstyle on anyone.

07:37 Except for on my grandmother in this picture, but when I looked up the ebo tribe in Nigeria, what do you know, but that hairstyle comes right out boom. There is other evidence that suggests that that our heritage is at least partially from the Igbo tribe is that

08:00 When you and I did artomatic testing it came back that the predominant genetic composition that I have is from Nigeria. So this is information that I couldn't possibly have during my grandmother's life. And I'm resume. I'm assuming that at least my my paternal side that I have Nigerian background.

08:33 And how many children did they have? They had eight children. And as I mentioned to you Harry was the first then they had another two children in the third child died in infancy. His name was Raymond. They had other children of which the baby son was my father Benjamin Franklin Brown.

09:01 It's amazing to me. And this is why I feel like I want to talk about 8th of May. It's amazing to me that someone who had a very minimal educational background and who seemingly had everything going against her was able to number one live until she's 97 put number to to inspire extraordinary accomplishments, Uncle Harry.

09:36 I'll be at that said that he was the numbers man, but he apparently and all of the children from what I can tell from the school records, which I also have they went through Junior what we would consider middle school or in our old days. It was called Junior High.

09:57 Anyways with that background that he had he figured out a very complex really almost 5 still more Kingdom in the city that they settled in so that he became a general contractor. He owned a cab company. He owned the beauty shop a barber shop and a barbecue and at one point in my life when I was staying at his home. He had 35 real estate holdings cuz I said Uncle Harry what are all these books sitting around? He's like all those are my rib books because I have to make sure those people pay me.

10:40 So just as it has a short aside I mention the same thing to some cousins that I just now met this summer and they said yes every time we got our paycheck everybody in the building where we work which is the post office that I got to go see mr. Brown and they all went. Who are we my cousin? Who are they talking about? Mr. Brown? And then I realize they talk about going to see Uncle Harry to pay their rent. So he did it up but I think what why want to mention him is because not only worse was she able with a minimum education to nurture someone who became really exceptionally well off with me also the black mayor of Evanston actually not that's a piece of information that the family how do I want?

11:40 Say family myth. I have also the paperwork to show who was the Black Mirror of Evanston in the year that he ran and it wasn't him. But I think why he did it was because it was great advertising for his cab company. So his campaign poster which I have a picture of shows him looking amazing. I never knew he was so fine. But anyway, it shows him and then it says owner Westside cab company provides jobs to black man.

12:18 So okay, he's smart enough to figure all that stuff out. He clearly she nurtured him to feel that he was important in that he could find a solution but the most important part to me.

12:33 That she she and I'll give Garfield some credit. Although there's some other stuff to say about Garfield. Anyway, the most important thing about the nurturing was that we have to succeed as a family because the people who were the cab drivers was my father and my uncles and when my uncle James died, Uncle Harry apparently put the company in his Widow's name employed the Widow until she retired like 60 years later as a beautician in his beauty shop. We are also and Goldie worked where my dad worked as one of his first jobs, so

13:20 There's a lot to be said about Uncle Harry. He's a rough customer, you know, but despite him being a rough customer if it wasn't for the nurturing he got in the ethic of all of us must survive. I don't think the story would have turned out the way it's turned out.

13:45 Could I say I want to say a little bit about Garfield?

13:51 Okay, so the other family history that we can't pin down yet and keeping in mind that the descendants of ADA Mae and Garfield. There's something like 350. So this is a huge family unit. But at any rate Garfield old apparently was not the father of the year nor was he the husband up to here?

14:23 Again, if you think about it, he saw someone and just said, oh my gosh, I want that woman. I want her to be my wife phone and he was extremely jealous. She if you know looking at this picture and even when I met her and she had to be in her 50s was exquisitely beautiful person and she clearly is of mixed race. There is some Legend. Well, I don't say Legend there some reason to believe that she met her father may have been part of that Woodson clan that claims Heritage to Thomas chip President Thomas Jefferson. What is any rate we are is a child always knew that she was somehow of mixed Heritage now to prove all this and

15:23 All of the documents, I don't know but I it's used to always joke with me about my grandmother. You remember that? What did you say? Oh I said father is Jewish. Yes, but then what did we find out in the end the DNA?

15:44 Apparently there is some back. There's no no, it's Scandinavian.

15:54 So, you know, it's it's hard to is hard to unearth some of this and my parents and my grandmother were reticent because they were ashamed of some of these things. I don't know. What happened to Woodson. He was her her dad. He was one of three husbands at least that heard that her mother had but back to Garfield cuz I'm getting a little off the track. So Garfield was jealous. He has what we call in our community a high yella gal. She had silky long dark hair big beautiful eyes. And at one point, I guess while they're in Kentucky and my dad is still a very young child, maybe 345 something like that. He the family lawyer says Garfield comes home, and he

16:53 Cease this man working in the yard and he's sure that the man has somehow made the wrong moves towards his wife and he either assault the man or kills the man but whatever happened in Kentucky, as you know, its way far up in the hills, but he lit out immediately and shortly thereafter Aida met with the other children also got on the train inadvertently leaving Harry because they are in a hurry to get out of Dodge while leaving here in Kentucky and he's by then I guess about 16 17. So the neighbors took up a collection to help him get the train and they land in, Evanston, Illinois.

17:43 Garfield again not being the best husband while he's there.

17:48 He somehow or another I think I've heard broke a Tammy's collarbone. And again, he's jealous. She goes out with friends lady friend in the evening. And so, you know nowadays we call this domestic abuse. He's not a bad. He's a bad actor and so he leaves Illinois. And this is how we get to Michigan these Illinois and goes to rural Michigan and again, it is not an easy thing to find him.

18:22 He goes by an assumed name. He clearly does not want people to find him. I seen one picture of him as a older man and his hat is pulled down over his face. You just see that he has really brown skin and a nose and lips. That's all you can tell. I think he's holding me to who at any rate.

18:46 8th and Maize and he remained married until his death and another little family mystery is that they remain married but they're separated he purchases land in Michigan and when he passes, I believe it's 1949, but it's I'm still a toddler basically when he passes.

19:12 He is buried in a family plot that's owned by Uncle Harry is oldest child, but his records show that his name is Thomas Brown not Garfield, but when I went to the plot, it has a big head stone and it does say Garfield.

19:36 And it has his correct date the dates of birth match the date of birth of Garfield. So they were still hiding their dad and you know even to now because it was an accident I even found him the lady at the cemetery. She said, oh, I don't know who this man. Is that spirit with the rest of your face. So that's how I found them. But she had this husband that you know, what's a bad actor and he's not only took his hand to her but to the kids there's an old story that's a little on The Bluest Eye but Uncle Herbert apparently was doing something that he shouldn't have been doing and I heard this story at his wake at Uncle Herbert's wake and Uncle Harry and my dad were talking about and Uncle Roy were talking about the story. So Uncle Herbert was acting out.

20:36 The father wasn't too happy about it and he was spanking him across the yard and as he was Uncle Herbert his bowels loosened up and so my grandmother yelled out that kid.

20:56 So

20:58 He was sound like I said a pretty rough customer, but when he passed and my grandmother then is at least, you know, maybe in her forties.

21:11 She remain single for some number of years until she met a gentleman named, mr. Metcalf and he really was a gentleman, but do you have other other questions that you like to ask?

21:25 So, how did your dad end up in Michigan? That's a good question. The property that Garfield purchased was about I'm thinking was about 60 Acres and 40 acres of that property was ultimately purchased by my father.

21:45 And he had come to Michigan because as a World War II veteran, he did not receive an African American World War II veteran that he did not receive GI benefits the GI benefits that supposedly helped most of the veterans of World War II did not help my dad. And from what I've read in history had did not help other black veterans. So he's looking for a job. He first he goes to California looking they might he and my mom stay out there with her sister. I'm born. So I'm a native Californian there anyhow, so then that doesn't work out and I have the paperwork to show how many weeks he went back and forth to the unemployment office.

22:39 Then he tries Illinois and that doesn't work. So Uncle Harry says how about this you and Dad will raise the chickens for my barbecue store or restaurant? And so that's what they did and you seen the pictures of dad in the chicken house and let me tell you I do know how to dress a chicken necessary I can do it because I was raised on a farm in Southwestern Michigan and that's how how dad and mom came to Southwest Michigan so he could work with his dad as a farmer.

23:21 Sorry, you're born in California. But you were raised in Southaven. Yes, I was raised and really I use Southwest Michigan because it's African-American. We all considered that entire area of Southwest Michigan if y if I know you you part of my community, so I first was raised in Bangor Michigan to I one-room schoolhouse and then my parents because my my mother had a small inheritance they purchase land in rural South Haven and therefore I graduate from Southaven high school. I want to get back a little bit if it's okay to my grandmother and it fits here. Okay, so I didn't know my grandmother 8 am a until perhaps. Let's say I had to be about six or seven.

24:19 And one of the reasons I believe again there so many Secrets people did not tell children anything that they didn't think they had to know is there is a great deal of disapproval of my parents marriage and their initial liaison because my dad was married to someone else when he met my mother and from what I understand was Thunderstruck.

24:47 And even despite War cuz he met her they both worked at McDonald Douglas air plane Factory during the war. He met her in about three months later. He went to the Navy.

25:04 He apparently remembered her very much because they're letters that I have seen with my own eyes of him writing back to her and when he came back he came after her and now we call it stalking. But in those days it was that boy has a real crush on you. He rode his motorcycle back and forth in front of her boarding house over and over until she would come out and talk to him. But I guess they did more than talking cuz here I come along and my grandmother and the the Brown family was very unhappy about this because they all loved his first wife. So ultimately divorce is the first wife and he and my mom then marry in Paw Paw, Michigan.

25:59 Who's the fact your grandmother for a minute? How did you feel when you first found out that she has?

26:07 In The Pour House

26:09 At first I was thinking about that this morning just before we left home at first. I was stunned and shocked and then I was very upset with myself in. Okay, so this done shock is because I mean upset and on her couch talking about her time and what she called The Orphanage for a long time. I sat closer than I'm sitting to you like hip to hip and she said I was in an orphanage in so that sounded you know, I'm thinking. Oh, yeah, it was probably nice and warm and I'm envisioning a welcoming place and I taught social welfare history, and I know what these facilities were and this one was not a not a number one, but I felt sad for her.

27:04 And the more information I got the more sad I felt for her.

27:10 And yet whatever happened there. It couldn't all have been bad because she was an extraordinary industrious person. So my feelings first were sad. And then how did I miss that? I should have known myself, but I did miss it. And then I began to think about that when I talked to her. She would say, well my mom came to visit me and they taught me how to crochet and she did so much crocheting that just about I don't know if they all 350 descendants have a piece of her crochet but probably is quite beautiful and some of it I put in the archives of the African American Museum, so I felt sad but but what I feel now just as a nail put a line under it what I feel now about her is

28:08 I'm awestruck. I just cannot believe that someone who was not a literate but almost who was found on the street and put in a horrible place to live and then had to live in someone's closet and then gets married to some person who doesn't treat them. Well that when I knew her she was happy. I mean she was never what was me and I had it so hard she just said, oh well as an orphan if they taught me this long if you want to learn and I couldn't even I couldn't even figure out how to crochet like, I don't know how to spell crochet but regardless

28:57 How I feel when she when she came to our home and roll, Michigan rule Western Michigan from then on she was all in. I mean she just loved us and we just loved her. I was just so fascinated cuz I thought anybody that had on nail polish was glamorous and you know, she was always dressed up and you know had her earrings on and all that and I didn't understand that.

29:28 She was poor. I never knew that she was poor until I was an adult the house that she ended up having that she was so proud of was a refurbished Filling Station her son Harry who had the contractor's license built his house. Then he he which is a great house and is still standing is beautiful. I mean beautiful in terms of if you have no home, but next door, he bought the filling station and refurbished it as a home for his mother and it really had the tiniest beds. You've ever seen I slept in it with three of my two of my sisters. That was the only thing I couldn't understand. My dad will say be so careful cuz your grandma's house is really nice and you children do kids use cannot do anything to make her upset. And so I said well

30:28 We have to be that careful. This must be a really rich house. But the floors were so cold. If you didn't put some socks on you might not be able to get your foot up off that floor going to be frozen to the floor. But you know, she wasn't a happy person who Not only was she a good mother and raised, you know, all of these folks and inspired so many of us, but she was really really Frugal and she worked until probably she must have been nearing eighty. I'm guessing cuz I saw her walk to work and I didn't recognize her when I saw her walk to work, you know, so if I'm fast-forwarding from the first time I met her.

31:16 Where I thought it look nail polish. Wow. She's rich and glamorous to the time. I saw her walk to work. I couldn't believe that it was the same person Chinese big block shoes, and she's trudging along cuz he's buy them. Like I said be on her deep in her seventies and she's walking everyday about at least three miles minimum and she smokes like a chimney. I couldn't you know, she's smoke unfiltered pound mouth.

31:49 And my dad told her one time and she was night like 95 at this point and he said Mom, I don't want you to have that cigarette. She said Franco sit down and jaw. He heard her our son and he's like, oh that person must be powerful cuz Granddad is hard case and he sat down when she said sit down.

32:13 Any stories you want to hear about your grandmother? Yeah, there's one story. I particularly want to share because I was old enough to appreciate her. There's two and one of them is that like I said, she was very very frugal and she work very very hard and very very long. So on June 8th 1963, I'm going to read this letter the way that it was sent to me. I have a copy of a letter she sent to me on that date dear granddaughter. I received your ladder. I was glad to hear from you and know that you know, the family is well.

33:03 I am sending you a little money to help you on your trip and hope you will have a nice time and hope all is will. I send love to all from your grandmother and Frank. That's her second husband better. I am Cinder you $50.

33:27 No, like I said, she worked really hard and walked at least three miles to and from work might have been 5 but

33:40 Not only did she work hard cuz she was a washer woman to wash people's closed and iron them and she was so well-known for this that when she did decide to retire probably later than I mean older than I am right now at 70. The people said what what if we bring it to your house?

34:04 So she would say she got a mangle. I don't know if they bought it for her or she bought it. But anyway, it's a big machine that you can use to iron sheets and the people would bring their stuff to her house and come back and pick it up because she was so good at what she did but why I'm saying that is because

34:26 She's probably not making more than a dollar an hour. She may not make that cuz she's off the books. She's not registered for Social Security. And when she sent me that $60 or $50, I just never forgot that I was going to church camp and I'm 1963. I have to be between 15 and 16 years old somewhere in there. Anyhow, I had a feeling by then of what money was worth and I just was so blown where my dad said, you know, what that means is that she believes in you that $50 would probably be almost a week's worth of work for her. Probably more.

35:15 So it was very moving to me and obviously I never forgot it because I never I never do that letter away.

35:25 The other thing I remember particularly if she loved the wrestling matches. Okay, so she is feisty. If you weren't feisty, you would not have don't think you could have made with all the things going on in her life, but I remember going to her house and her sons have bought her a television. And so this is like whatever the tiniest television that you can get black and white.

35:51 And she's sitting near smoking that cigarette never left her mouth and in so it's dangling and ashes are almost but she caught him and she's like she's like doing this whole thing wrestling matches. He said yeah, she likes it. And I do too. I went okay, but I cannot be speaking about smoking. I don't know how she live 297 but she did and she did not die of cancer. She died of pneumonia, which she apparently got because she broke her knee and then when she broke her knee she had to be hospitalized and you had to be stationary.

36:48 And so she developed pneumonia from what Uncle Harry said that when she was passing. She said no one should warn me because I've had a very good life.

37:01 And I mean whether she said it or not, I always thought that that that's how she felt is that she was quite blessed.

37:13 I'm also feel that it's a blessing that she knew Jackie and Ayesha.

37:20 Tell her she she used to call Jackie Jackie. So I said well, that's okay. I can't fix that one. Last two last things real quickly. Is that another memory I have of her there was a movie a long time ago starring Sidney Poitier and is called a patch of blue and in the year nineteen summer 1966. I was working in Evanston, Illinois between freshman and sophomore year of college. So I was working in Evanston, Illinois near her house, and I said what if

38:00 We go to a movie and she's like they'll be wonderful and that go Lisa that would be great cuz you know, I won't have to go and she loves movies. So we went to see a patch of blue and I just felt it was so

38:19 Memorable to me because I could be with my grandmother as an adult.

38:25 And we both felt very deeply about the movie and she said she had strong feelings about racial issues and also about love and about the other things that were portrayed in so we were able to talk as one adult to another and the final thing. I want to say specifically about my grandma is that she was called by my cousins Big Mama.

38:57 And I guess I always thought she was big until I looked at a picture recently. Where did the old picture again? It's in the like 1973 and my sisters and I for four of us are staying with my grandmother and she's in the middle and she has on at least 2 in heels and she doesn't come up to my nipples. She is really itty-bitty person, but we thought of her because her personality was so big as Big Mama.

39:36 It always amazed me when I meant your family became part of the family that even though that your mom and dad live on a farm and they were never really affluent until last few years of our Frank's life after he retired.

39:56 All of you all of you and your Sims graduate in college and was awesome a spy that and I think that

40:06 Over the time that you have been doing research on your grandmother.

40:10 I started to understand why.

40:13 That even though your family came from meager means that all of your evil go to college and I got understand that what she instilled in her children and her children Odyssey passed on to their children, but to me, it's it's amazing for a real black family.

40:34 Basically hand them off most of your life with Lucy ate children to college in the 60s and 70s and I are committed to education why we have a scholarship at Eastern Michigan University is because you often need a hand up as well as to know how to handle yourself.

41:03 And again a lot of the things that that I take as a given at that I must survive. Okay, there there is an alternative. There is no alternative. I must survive but even though I didn't know all of my grandmother's story. I believe that always and when I came to Detroit, I believe that as much as been even more so than I do today. And so I want to make sure and and wind out by saying I got here as a civil servant having graduate with my masters from University of Michigan Social Work. I came to Detroit as a civil servant working in the Bureau of drug abuse, which I did not know anything about but I said, I'm going to figure it out. I am hungry and I am not going to Star.

42:03 And I think a tomato would have said the same thing girl. You can't take the education and all those loans and you can't figure out how to find a job. So there was no alternate far as I was concerned. There was no alternative and it's a peculiar thing that both I believe you and I have found out which is

42:23 From my perspective if you are hungry or you don't have clothing or house or whatever. You better look at the end of your arm and try to figure it out and then if you

42:40 If you do get some help you should be damn grateful.

42:46 And you better give some back.

42:50 I think that's something we both of his life. I was important. We didn't we didn't get here by yourself. And so we have to give people some of what we did get because we got a lot as you know, I hate that expression pull yourself up by your bootstraps, cuz I don't believe it's possible Gladden have boots a lot of times. That's also only true what you mean boots. You better take those shoes off and pick up that water out and put them back on but it's always

43:21 Almost surprising even after all these years when we talked about our families and I look back at where you in particular came from and realize one of the Common Thread about where we came from where we are now is that we have that halo effect.

43:41 Our parents and obviously your grandmother believed.

43:46 You're special you can do whatever it is you need to do then. Of course those other side of that is you will do it or I'll kick your butt kicked my butt. I have to say that I felt that it wasn't a failure was not an option. There is just like now to wine in a wine to stop. What's so remarkable really isn't us anymore. We're just like Ordinary People. I'm just saying compared to the current generation that have been the Heritage that they are reaping. So here are son is internationally known scholar in food security the very thing that you know, we we were hungry. I mean literally in my family there were times that we that we were hungry and certainly 8mm a and my dad

44:46 More times than not but nevertheless jaw. He's interest is in food security. And how do you grow that farm background? How do you grow enough food for everybody in the world and he's part of a large group of folks who prove that you can do that with organic farming and then of course not to sell it short but miss Ayisha is started this week vice president for the blue engine in New York City someone you could not talked into taking a degree in education U of M now. It's basically the second in charge of educational firm went to the White House before is we didn't get to go to see Barack and Michelle what she got to do with John Hiester got there before I did.

45:40 Well, well we went to the warehouse for other reasons. We aren't talking about standing on the shoulders of giants. And yes, we look at our children realize that they they really really are looking well into the future based on the Giants that they came from. Yeah. Yeah. He said to me about six months ago because as you know, he moved to England score of his senior scientist position. He said about six months ago. He said, you know, I just thought about it and I said to myself this is jahi, I wonder if my ancestors would approve of what I'm doing because it's not in United States and I don't know if I'm really giving back and he said then I answered my own question and I said what they suffered for was for me to have all the choices that come to me.

46:37 And I think both he and Aisha really feel that and their missionary Zeal about making the world better. I'm sorry, but I think they got me there. I think I I think I got a lot of piss and vinegar.

46:56 Why stop trying to keep up with them long time ago? Well, I'm so happy that that they could stand on the shoulders and I want to share this tape with them so that they will know even more about where they come from and how wonderful it is that they can they and many many of the other descendants can reap the benefits of the suffering that's gone before we are special and I think that I'm realizing that there

47:31 Grandmother

47:33 New

47:35 That her progeny with special and watch them be special is very special.

47:42 Yeah.

47:45 Fin Fun

47:47 Any last words would like to put in enough is enough. We're good.

47:53 Thank you. Thank you.