Monica Whatley and Bandele [no name given]

00:01 My name is Ben Deli. I'm 73 years old. The date is Friday, October 16th, 2021. I'm located in arima Trinidad and my partner is Monica Whatley. A fellow activist humanitarian.

00:20 And my name is Monica Whatley. I'm 32 years old. Today's date is Friday, October October 16th, Saturday, October 16th, 2021. I mean Columbus Georgia and my recording partner is Ben Bailey. He is a fellow troublemaker.

00:39 Good trouble only and fellow activist.

00:46 Rights, or should we should just go and get into this Ben Deli. So, I've got lots of questions for you. So, first of all, thank you for doing this with me and letting me interview you, you know, you mean so much to me.

01:03 And I want to start just by asking about your name. Actually been daily. What's so special about that name to you?

01:11 Well, it was given to me by the brothers in an African cultural group, which I talked for a couple years in prison in South Carolina Department of Corrections am known as bandelli.

01:26 And it means one bone away from home.

01:31 1.

01:33 Why is that significant to you?

01:36 Well, as somebody who studied African history order, the history of African is on the continent on a diet for 40. And if something dear to me because I think if you don't know who we are, we really know nothing in for not grounded and I'll pass, you know, and a psycho for blood becomes very significant. It's a bud with flying for but it's looking backwards and what it means is that no matter how far we go into the future and then I'll probably get a stranger, my route traditions and especially cultural Traditions, are very important. So that name, you know, I was very honest, even thought to give it to me.

02:19 Wow, that's beautiful.

02:22 So, you know, speaking of home, I guess you find yourself in Trinidad at this moment. It does that feel like home to you or what is home to you.

02:33 Not not really if ironic really as much as I don't like America and that has nothing to do with the American people. Cuz I've always found them to be kind generous, great. People is just a government of the people who they have a hold elected to public office. Those are the people. I have a problem with it, and I've actually spent most of my life in America. 48 years old. I live in London. I left Trinidad when I was 11 years old in 1959, and went to London and was induced the Royal Air Force. And in 73. I went to the state, New York, New York City, Brooklyn, New York.

03:13 Yeah, I think one thing that I just constantly shocks me is like you've been locked up longer than I've been alive. If I understand correctly. And that just ended that perspective. I don't know. Is there anything you want people to know about the criminal justice system in your experience with that? And how that influences your thoughts on what home means? And your thoughts on the United States?

03:38 Well, the criminal, the criminal justice system really. I was sentenced to life in 1988 prior to that. I've been to call it and everything else. I had a pretty good marriage. I was working things out in a while. My wife is separated temporary and I just got caught up in the system. They took me a few years to really understand that. I was really truly in the belly of the Beast, the Beast being the great rate on America, and it was only when I really became aware of the full ramifications of, right? That I wouldn't have as a result of being an ex-felon and call people systematically stripped of their humanity. And I've seen a lot of things in 33 years and I came in as an adult.

04:38 When I went to prison and I saw what happens to young men who come into the system at 17 and 16. I would know, life experience and they grow up. They dread babies in the world and they just thought it's a state of constant speed or what I observed was arrested development, takes place. If you come in at 8, for the rest of your time, all you're doing is repeating those first, two, three years, when you come into the system and you're trying to negotiate, you know, how to survive in the system and people traumatize doing a lot of pain and they turned to drugs violence whatever joining The Gangs doing in this joining that my thing was religion and education and acquiring the skills cuz I was determined not to become not to become institutionalized. That was my greatest fear. And that's the fate of motivated me to get involved.

05:38 You know, I got three trade. I have 3036 certificates and Monica's feeding them because when I went to ice, you know what she was trying to do a petition to me and she can be a witness to some of the things I'm saying.

05:55 Let's go. Yes, it's the system is dehumanizing and that's it would actually takes place, is your systemically broken? You're systemically loses a sense of self. You can just see yourself as an inmate, The Prisoner. And I guess it's true, my arrogance, or through. My Cigna drawings me. I never accepted it. I never accepted. I always saw myself, as Vandalia, always saw myself as an older brother cuz I was always over when I came to the system, you know, the thing, I join the daisies and I just barely made the great. I had one year of Eligibility left, for example, to be an active member of the, the JC. I have seen what the Reagan did when he came in to change the system, but I came and you could get college degrees and stuff like that and then they stripped it away. Now, they're trying to replace some of those things. So they realize that if you don't train people and it doesn't really take 30 years.

06:55 For people to get it. Most of us, get it after the first five years, and there's no education or training going on in South Carolina. For example, we just, we just warehouse and they switch to this new model of, it's not a new wallet, always been like that, since emancipation prison for profit but not if corporate Corporation. These judges are involved in investing in the prison system, like in the federal system, you left the curricle and you got judges, who was sentencing the people, and they have a monetary disbursement. They have an incentive because we have an investment in the whole system. So, you know, it is ironic that America, the Bastion of democracy, which is ready to talk with you, which is really about money and Money Rules and money controls everything. They have more people incarcerated than any other country on the planet, including toast.

07:55 Totalitarian States, like China, and Russia that to me it sticks in my craw.

08:03 Oh my God, that makes my blood boil. Trying to resist this activism. I think Americans have to really clean your citizenship back, the responsibilities and pick the government back. Take the government back and you be careful, really, really take an interest of a human being in other human beings, forget about class or race, and all these things that used to be light. As, you know, just deal with people on the basis of what I like to be treated, you know, if people make mistakes, how would I like? How would I like to be treated? If somebody close to me, was in a situation like this? How would I feel? Because you know, when things are reversed and you are up clothes, when a family member becomes involved, then it's nothing like me to think. It's not just something you can just brush away, you know, cuz John Q.

09:03 So much on his plate to deal with, you know, just just maintaining a sanity, just bread on the table roof over their head, the government, and the other, and they want somebody to take care of it, but we really have to step up as individual and really hold people accountable. Hold people accountable, the people who elected to public office. Maybe we need to we know who can represent you better than yourself. And really we have to take back on government. Then that's a broad statement, but we have to stop and I will community community the school board that we have to represent the things that are near and dear to us. If we don't do that, the game is lost.

09:54 Yeah, I like what you said, cuz I feel like we had activist were always playing defense, right? We're always resisting. We're always fighting against the Dolphins that the evil that's happening and I like your position because this is really an offensive position. We have to create the world. We want to live in, we have to come up with the tools and extend a hand out to the people who are in pain. Like you said, the people in prison and else what, you know, we're all in pain in our own way. We have to build the world. We want to be in, I know there's that book that I sent you and that I would like to read with you about black Utopia. And, you know, we have to build a Utopia. I think I heard recently, is like we can see an end of the world. We can Envision an end-of-the-world more easily, than we can Envision. The end of capitalism. Like we just have no imagination for it. So I don't know your thoughts as far as like, what does a world without prisons? Look like, what is the alternative? Do you think that prisons have a place in our society at all, or, or what? Would it look like without them?

10:54 Prison is an effect. We have to go to the causes. We have to realize that the the system that Society will living in now to be call America. Somebody is very, very clever people. Very people who are highly motivated. Does the big cheese? Really can't find it in the seventies on the Reagan. You know what I'm saying? For the past two decades after the second American lives up to the dream, you know, it was a middle class. And then, there was a concerted effort by the rich, by the corporation, by crooked politicians, going back to Barry Goldwater, agenda of hay to divide and conquer and play on people's fears and evil genius. Genius is a recent history by cut Anderson, and this is a guy what I think fantasy land or something like that, but just reading the introduction.

11:52 It was so informative. How the process of deregulation served us. We were sold a bill of goods, you know, you have pensions life examples of state of Tennessee, the cops the teachers and nurses in a couple years time. They've put in the work, they've done, everything play by the rules. They will not have a pension United Airline. They deaf people who played by the rules to find something like that. Then lost everything because of Wall Street and corporate greed. You know, why is it Dorman fact in the 80s?

12:32 The hell Goldman Sachs 89 million dollars at 7959 million dollars. That was his compensation. Everybody else in gold and silver $800,000. What can you do? You're creating anything?

12:55 It is for the American dream to destroy everything that we hold there. So then the god of money, money greed, and then loaded B motivated by greed, the people in charge are motivated by greed the people who who who go to the lobbyists didn't Kris a thousand percent in the last 20 years, but we need to pay attention to what I said. John Q public the average guy is just trying to make it through to the next payday. And you know, I feel more American because I paid attention to politics. I read a lot and I've had the time to do with the great luxury, we have in prison as we have time to think. If you're a thinking person, I've always been in love with books. So it was a natural environment for me and always felt that I was given an opportunity to really think and figure a lot of stuff out. I've been involved in Buddhism is La mamota speaking. The truth.

13:55 I'm always trying to find out what, what is the purpose of, why am I here? What is the reason? And I listen to Indian, man. I realized about spirituality and religion is just something to use the shack along with mine Christianity, Judaism, all of them, you know, but when you realize that you have to really tried the Mystic time, which of the process of self-discovery, and the answer is not necessarily out there is within and the journey. The greatest Junior, really is an inward journey and I've been fortunate enough to live long enough 73 years old and I've had time to think and the flying the wall down and everything but I've got this thing that I want been through for the last thirty something years and prior to that. And then I think it's in the blood line cuz my family, they were always political

14:55 The song We discovering family, members of My Father's Side cousins and stuff like that. And they'll probably accomplish people. And that's why I am using the Alias that thing because I have to respect that. I'm have a daughter who I, who I haven't seen in years old, and she's a brilliant young woman. She's a teacher, a mother did an incredible job, you know, and I have to spare them somewhat. I don't want to embarrass them by, you know, who wants to call you when it's gone, you know, no matter what he's done and I really think I'm a good person and I know I'm a good person. I know I have something to offer. This is what I have to do a story. They were so eager to report, people like me who can make a contribution to American society, who could get down and deal with the youth who develop those skills and then throwing up,

15:55 Play the casting it away for political gain again.

16:02 Yeah, I think you're a threat to two people here. You really do have a beautiful heart and it's fun being your friend. Now, now that our conversations are focused on just your legal case. I'm peeing on the defense all the time. You have humor, but it's balanced with with like you're not fooling around either. You are curious. You love people so much. Like, I'm so surprised now that you're in Trinidad, I expected you to be on a beach somewhere, listening to jazz music. That's what I would be doing. You know, that's what I think I would be doing, but you're busy, you're up to see, you're doing all kind of stuff, and I'm not happy here. I'm not, I'm not happy with the Trinidad. I left as a boy, no longer exist, and I'm not really am not impressed. I'm not terribly impressed. I see you in a material progress and stuff like that. I live in a nice neighborhood, you know, middle-class whatever it is looking people.

17:01 Economic whatever it is in this part of the Caribbean, you know? Because we have, we have all, we have this, we have that we have gas but at the same time to option option, option on a grand scale, they've adopted the American model and nobody wants to hear this because they think and I feel so whatever I really feel like it and I've always had one but it's really expensive business expense, is the sense of justice. It's a sense of we are human and leave. All of you was a race and the views of religion to divide and conquer or so. I'm aware of those tactics and I try not to play into it.

18:01 The same time of the end of the day, we're all human beings and this is the only planet we have. So, you know, we can't give up on it.

18:10 Yeah, totally. And I think, I mean, it was a unique situation. It at Stewart, where we met, right? The Detention Center in Stewart County. I mean, what I know about Stewart County is the majority black County. Most of the employees working at the Detention Center are black yet, you know, Society wants to divide the issues, you know, the immigration issue is different than a than a black issue. That's what we that's what I thought, you know, as a white Ally that that's kind of what I'm told is to put things in different boxes, but you, I mean, you can't separate those things and I'm sure that in that impacted your relationship with the guards and, you know, give you a lot of perspective on what it's like to be detained in rural Georgia with the history that it has with slavery and Indigenous genocide. I wonder what your thoughts are on, you know, the people who work there and and then possible choice, they have to work at this facility. Cajun people, when there's really no other economic opportunities there.

19:08 If there are many of them know, my ex-wife always said, I should make sure that our daughter had an indication that would give us options, you know, but if that's the only thing I will be what do you want to do? And I always I never made it personal, I would always attack policies and I was trying to Enlighten them cuz you know, your feelings, are you really comfortable? I know you got to pay the bills. I know you have responsibilities and listen to whatever it is, but the same time cuz don't forget that you're dealing with human beings. And I'll always like trying to flash my humanity and let them know by face. Then I have skills. I have school until the communication skills and I can really put them on blast or if I want to boost them up. I want to make them feel like a real human being to. I am not that different from you. You know, if I wasn't in this facility you with me, you know that I'm a foreigner or an alien.

20:08 And I'm a pickle. And I've been exposed to more thing. I grew up in London. I live in New York of live in Los Angeles and I have always had a worldview when I deal with people cuz I've always been the outsider. I've always been the outside and just because of my particular love you, and I'm comfortable with that when I was younger. It bothered me. I wanted to fit in and stuff like that, but I never knew how to how to shut my mouth and you know what I'm saying? Don't voice my opinion.

20:39 So, I've never been able to have never been very good at that and now I'm comfortable with it. As I get older. It's like, what can you do to me? I look 73 years old. So what can you really do? Need something positive? You know, I've always thought you a reason a season or a lifetime. We need people for a reason. Sometimes, it's just a season or a lifetime. People keep coming coming back in your life, popping up into your life. So, the best we could do is try to live the truth. Is it donder or someone who said, if you want change in the world to see change in the work, you have to be that changed. If you want to see in the world, you have to be agents of change. This is where it comes in. It's not something artificial is not whatever it is. You got to live your food, for the one, you're living your authentic, you your phone in your face.

21:40 Do you remember where you learned that lesson? Like, do you know where you were when you made that realization or have you kind of always known that?

21:48 I think it's on her on some level of always known it, but I kind of got away from it. And I, I kind of got caught up in this idea of the American dream and middle class and I was married to a woman who very much wanted that, and I can understand why she came from Memphis, Tennessee. And Memphis is probably a racist old, southern plantation, State and I didn't really understand until I lived in this house in prison and all the wrong people, you know, and I understand what the worldview is and I understood it a lot better.

22:25 I don't think I would have understood America. If I didn't come to prison as much as I, you know, the time I have to think about it all the time. I have the books. I have to read. No, always just like I'm selective with what I eat. A very selective until to what I read and you know, the people are. I respect that mean we have a similar worldview, you know, it's wrong to all the same thing at the same Vibe. You know, that's why I got on so well with you my car, you know what your crazy self.

22:59 Yeah, I think if I had met you at another time in my life, we would have had a very different relationship for good or for bad and I kind of feel like maybe that's the same for you. What do you think? I think it was our relationship would have been different if I met you and say South Carolina back in those days, you know, the most of your time.

23:27 Probably New York. Definitely. I live in Los Angeles for a couple of years, and a few years. I drove a cab in Brooklyn, many Yellow Cab. And I was always trying to, and then I finally able to get my green card and go to school. And I got a little thing saying, well, do so and so, we need this. I have to drop out because I was, I was

24:00 You know, existed under this whatever it is, you know, but I don't know this dream together medication and you know, I think the greatest educational really was

24:11 Education and life in a place with the soul repressive. I was forced to really turn in words that I was in. South Carolina are really liking the New York City of an adult. I came on a living with my grandmother and then she went back, she went back home and back to England and I became a man. I became responsible to manage my money, pay my bills, pay my rent and be responsible. That's why New York. New York, really is in a way, I kind of a home. And, you know, they say, you can never go back home cuz it doesn't exist. I know, it's never, it's not a geographical location. Its experiences. You have experiences, you lessons, you learned and New York. I love New York because if that's free and easy to meet people and you know, you would each other like

25:11 I'll let you know, they have no time for the beer and the love that.

25:16 Yeah, you're a New Yorker through and through my little southern belle sales. I would, I would get eaten alive in New York.

25:23 I know you wouldn't go help. Not, I would learn I guess.

25:27 So, true about you can

25:34 You know, she's at the Italian blood, they call and Ice Olivia. And she's a product of that. She was born in Libya to Italian parents. And you know why? I'm so curious to see Livia myself. I never been there. I've never been to Italy. I'm a, you know, a product of that, but I don't know. My roots. I think she's just afraid of what she'll see. Kind of like you said about Trinidad, is not going to be the same and I want to go with her, but I think she's going to have to ReDiscover it and is not going to be the same place. She remembers, you know.

26:05 But that's all right because I'm seeing things about send out of it. So, you know, I mean, if I stay here, I know I'm going to have to get motivate people to get involved in being the by being active. It's a challenging development of challenging, the council about garbage, the rules of this to that, but they have to speak up with people. So called this old is so it's like, you know, I don't know. That's the way it is. They don't want to challenge thing cuz it's always been like that. And I I don't see things that it has to be this way. I always feel like I'm going to be like that, you know, and Cindy as a tourist and you're really not going to get into it. You really not going to really have a feel for the

27:05 Go back to you in a way. You know, she loved how you know how to be fake and never ever go back home.

27:32 How many minutes is 10 time? If you want, we can do everything you want to know about bandelli, we can fill it in in 10 minutes, but it's really in a box.

27:48 It's about really. I'm just our instrument or whatever. It's a shining light on Bulldog nasty places that we have in society and putting it out there. Like, what democracy is 1% of the people control, all the well, you know what I'm saying, they've destroyed the Reese's rotary can lift that they don't even know what their own interest should be. That's what's so sad about it, and people are being manipulated based on this field and then hate, you looked at before you really think of Donald Trump give a damn about anything or anyone else and can you trust politicians for telling you? That this is a June 8th January 6th, it didn't happen to this at all and you'll see it on the video amazes me, you know.

28:48 We've been told they sold out. So they only rely on when is election. Time left is on the local level. But then, the real fun is the real smart guy, and all, in the things. I've never been to the who's on the school board, who's on the city council, you know, and maybe maybe the mail but, you know, break it down, block organize your block. Go out there and, and, and talk to people on your block and let them find out what they're interested in love with covers. That was probably the same in prison. That's, that's a local.

29:41 Community in itself. You'll probably had rolls just like that. You brought the mayor. If I had to guess.

29:47 No, I wouldn't. I was smart enough to like I was just the guy with it a little bit of legal look and you know, because people have all kinds of gender. They have all kinds of feels the pain. You're experiencing pain in the only way to act is to act out. So, you know, you got to be your own therapist. Formal and then you know Leah lend a helping hand to someone else but sometimes through you can't stay still come, you can shut up and just let things go. Sometimes it's not tell him, I'm 73 years old. I'm not Superman and all we have to be as men speak out was more important to you. Speak on what's important. You don't have to rub it in. Everybody's interest, you know what I'm saying? And, but just speak up speak out and let your voice be heard, man. Enough of us would do that. I think we can make it really.

30:47 The change that we want to see if we recognize

30:54 It takes it takes me to a human being, I feel feel scared. But you know what? I mean to not say anything. I will probably pop the vein in my head or something. I got a blood vessel in my head. I just couldn't keep it in and it always looked out the thing. He feared the most

31:21 Bonnie came true. Sometimes we don't even have a name for these things that we are afraid of, you know, we just have this fear. And that is what we we, you know, that, you know, sometimes the real courage is in facing your fears or just do what, you know what, you know what, you know, and sometimes it means really, you know, I'm going to just say what I got to say.

31:46 If I had your courage, there was one time when remember, when you were, you were like, getting ready to go to Trinidad and you told me, Monica. I will stay and fight just to make sure that, you know, I get to healthcare. That's the bit that ice does their job properly, right? And you had a chance to just get on the plane as quickly as possible. And you're like, well, I'm willing to prolong it if it means that they do their job correctly. I think that was a prime example.

32:14 I think the greatest.

32:17 Listen to remind me to call you was deciding to allow myself to be deported and Expediting and I didn't have no reason to lie. People do it to give it to me in my life. If I was there cuz now I'm seeing I'm seeing if acupuncture and all my health problems is being addressed through traditional Chinese medicine and supplement with Western medicine. I probably would have had a heart attack or something before I left before they put me on the plane and the healthcare provider says oh that's the side effects.

33:01 So, you know, once again free the universe chooses and it's so it chooses Direction, and sometimes resisted and the Natural Instinct was to resist because I had these plans on going to open a business and built pallets and I had plans and I was written Brian. And all this other stuff, you know, and all I have to do is get on the plane and I am creating a new life for myself. I'm creating a new life. It's a new beginning, so many ways.

33:34 You know.

33:36 Yeah, it's just luck. Sometimes. I've been very, very lucky to see. I just have made parole because, you know, how many guys have done more time than me and they have exemplary, disciplinary records and stuff like that. It's all politics is a quality, you know, but at the same time, I did have 36 certificate to show that I have three crazy. I am about them into doing the right thing, you know, which was to give me, grant me, parole? And you know, Leon they gave you control of what kind of you and they give you.

34:36 That way, it was giving people hope you know, it's time for me. I've grown as much as I do. It's time to move on with another, whatever this part of my life and I really wasn't surprised at all surprised. But in a way for the first time, I was really count. When I get it, you don't know me from Adam. He brought me this household.

35:17 And I'm living in this place and arima with him. And I was able to thank for my mother to have a little money. So I can make an investment in this business in the store. And it's like, it's paid the universe, the universe has like, stop it. I'm trying again. What is really into it? Because I think it's about, you know, this future is so powerful, and I can just leave the people. I'm meeting is incredible, you know, and that's why is my friend, cuz I want the best for you.

36:04 You know.

36:05 Thank you, if your energy is unmatchable, I don't know how you doing it. What's your plan with the store? I'm not going to claim this though. I have to stand was going on to be perfectly honest with you. But you have to align yourself with truth and goodness and honesty and that anytime I want to, if you live in accordance with the law, you know, it's like if you put a pot on the stove, right? Cuz that is physically, you have to line yourself with truth and goodness. It's simple thing and I don't know, at all. I just have inside.

36:57 I just know a few things very few things. But what I know, I practice, whatever. I know I'm true to it.

37:07 I don't, I don't live with myself to myself. I'm not telling you. I always speak the truth.

37:13 You know I'm saying? You people up there, corrupted me.

37:18 What's the birthstone?

37:23 Not enough.

37:25 But you on it for me, you will. If you kept only told me one that I never said you been in prison longer than I've been alive. I mean, if that was a moment when you involved in your life, I don't make those kind of calculations. Like, how many years is that? It was a crime. It was a crime, but you know what I'm saying? I do. What can I do? I can move my going to do become a, become a junkie, because I have to be home. I was or who I am and have faith in yourself for your heart.

38:17 Wall wrap in a small voice is never wrong, you know, and that's what it is. You have taught me a lot. As always. It's been fun. And this this whole thing, I mean is this not. So it doesn't even capture honestly like everything about you and how I feel about you. But at this is such as I will cherish this you re-establish, the importance of being fruitful and being a good friend and you've been a good friend, Monica, Monica Whatley. I'm proud to have you French inside. I keep saying to you and your family and I saw your little Southern Belle fille, and I'm amazed cuz I see you.

39:13 Corporate raised to be afraid of you, you know, and I'm learning every day to to overcome that. And I mean

39:25 With people, with real people, real people, we want the same thing. We all want to be loved. If you want to be respected. We want to have a safe place while children. We, you know, what I'm saying? Is all Humanity. You wants the worst terrorist towards whatever it is. If you could get to the carving, man, you'll see. He has a full of the same field, the same expression and I'm not living in some kind of fantasy world cuz you know I'm saying I'm a realist, I'm hauling myself, you know, but I just realized they want to hide them from us and the power is within, you don't have to go through anybody to find the tap into that insolent. Ocean of Consciousness, which is what we call God, and we can manifest whatever we want to manifest, if we would just have faith and stop doubting ourselves. And this is a great secret. This is a great secret everybody who's been successfully accomplish anything.

40:24 Jay-Z and guys like that. They tell you listen man, believe in yourself, you know, and you know, they are authentic people, they make mistakes, you know who started, Microsoft listen to him, but he has something and I tried to, I tried to emulate people who have proven themselves, you know, and it's not necessarily the titans of Wall Street or those guys in the house or in the Senate, you know what I'm saying? I don't trust lawyers because I Was Bitten. I was done so we can never generalize. You always have to tap in, on a personal level, 121 level this other human being who ever it is.

41:22 Yeah, I think I think we're getting the signal. We need to wrap up. You said it all because you show me friendship and loyalty right from the start. So if I could do, so, I can repay that back and some little way. I then I'm satisfied. And you know what I'm saying? Thank you. I will Monica Whatley.

41:54 All right, yo.

41:57 Okay, can we do okay. I think she's going to stop it.